Build Question: Van Der Graaf Generator - In a Car?

i've seen it done using a model-t ignition coil on older auto [ vibrating system?]. i'm unsure about using it on a computerized auto, but i would'nt do it myself.

I agree, the last thing you want is for your Antilock Brake System to fail because of some stupid prank.

Hey guys -

Thanks for the replies. I guess I should clarify as to why I've posted such a question. It's not a prank of any sort, I actually just work at a dealer and was wondering if we were to do such an installation if it would be possible / difficult / cause a problem.

The last thing I want is for anything bad, know what I mean?

So assuming we have a donor car where it's going to get scrapped later, is it possible to still do this installation? Like, can one touch the car anywhere, or does it have to be a specific area, say, where the Van Der Graaf machine actually makes a connection to the shell of the vehicle.

Thanks guys, and cheers.

Why a Van der Graaff? A corona unit can do it too. Most of the electrostatic copiers have one.

Possible, and practical are not the same thing. There are sensors used in touch sensitive devices, that could be used to trigger much more practical devices that would stop an intruder. There are strobe lights that blind and disorientate people. What about Ozzy Osborn's Crazy Train at about 100 decibels?

The intention of this isn't to stop intruders. I don't know where you got that notion from. It's more to communicate "hair raising excitement".

:0)

Because I could not imagine shocking someone just for fun. Did you ever watch someone hit with a Tazer, or an AED?

This is why I'm here, to get answers. I'm not familiar with any of this, so please, take it easy.

Having said that, I've been doing a lot of research and can't find any information about a Van Der Graaf machine being dangerous, or, killing someone. Thoughts?

But I am seeing 700,000 volts. The body of the car is steel, not plastic. That seems to me that the VDG must be able to jump the spark from one metal object to another metal object. I would not want to be in the path of that spark. What happens when it rains on the car? I just don't see it workable.

Since the human heart runs on electrical signals, I could see unintended consequences with this idea.....................like an old person touching the car and keeling over from the unexpected surprise. Death wouldn't necessarily be from electrocution.

Plus it's probably illegal. Rigging up a car to shock people would probably be considered assault. At the very least it could get you sued.

Legal issues aside, this is more of a question of whether or not it is possible to turn a car into a virtual Van Der Graaf machine. If, and I mean BIG IF this idea comes to light, again, IF, then lawyers will be involved and proper precautions will be made prior to launch.

i doubt if anyone would think it's a just a harmless joke and my leave you open for law suits. a pacemaker for example.

If the car is never to be driven again then it might be fun. I can't see any way that is would be worth the trouble, but it might be fun.

Some things to consider:

1) The Van Der Graaf generator typically has a VERY, VERY low current capability and is only "safe" for "most people" if this is true.

2) Consistent with #1, my memories of having "fun" with a Van Der Graaf typically had us standing on an insulated platform on the floor for "hair raising" fun. People could stand on the floor for "shocking" fun.

3) When I was a kid we rode bicycles without helmets, played football without pads and had a lot of fun with "real" firecrackers and other gasoline or lighter fluid powered devices. This is a new world full of lawyers, OSHA, lawyers, insurance regulations, lawyers, damage/injury waivers, lawyers, worry warts and lawyers. You may be putting the car dealership at significant lawsuit risk (and lawyer bills) if you try to have "fun" with other people.

4) If you think about all the electrical weight loss devices, bug repellents, and other junk that pops up on TV every few years for $19.99 plus shipping and handling, the use of electricity and magnets in history for various health claims and the "cell phones blow up gas stations" urban myths you should see that the general public LOVES to be stupid when it comes to electricity. Even if your Van Der Graaf generator is "safe" a person(s) mad at you will not care about the facts.

5) I suspect that people with weak hearts should never be exposed to something like a Van Der Graaf generator.

6) There may be other concerns with the Van Der Graff generator too. While having fun person A may try to hit person B with sparks while person B is trying to avoid the sparks. With a lot of unplanned motion the spark may hit person B where person A was not intending. If the spark hits, well, shall we say "there", or possibly "the other place" then what was truly innocent fun is now a significant problem due to her being upset that a spark hit her, well, let's say "there" or possibly "in another area". I have seen this one happen. Nothing inappropriate intended. Say bye, bye to the fun.

Use the Van Der Graaf at a private Halloween party with some sort of ghost or Jack The Ripper decorations around it. More chance of fun, less chance of problems.

P.S. Cell phones do not blow up gas stations but ENTERING YOUR CAR to get your cell phone will often charge you up with static electricity (like a Van Der Graaf generator) and if you discharge this static electricity as a spark in the gas vapor then there can be a fire. The American public will NOT accept the static electricity caused by your butt sliding across the car seat facts. The American public LOVES the "talking on cell phones blow up gas stations" urban myth. BINGO, re-read #4.

P.S. #2 Is there any risk of there being any gasoline around or in any of these cars? Yes, the static charge should stay on the outside of the car and yes the gasoline should stay on the inside of the tank. But, just for the sake of safety you might want to take this into consideration. ...Also, any alcohol inside the people??????

Thank you so much for your detailed reply.

Looking into this a bit more, we're now considering using a shell of a vehicle minus anything electronic or a gas tank. Like, if we were to use a car, we'd be using a car that was written off due to flood damage or something, a car that wouldn't be fit for the road (we have no intention of putting this car back on the road IF this is created. Big IF.)

Thanks again!

Hey ya Bruce -

Thanks for your detailed response.

I'm going through everyone's comments and figuring stuff out and I had a question for you. You state if there's any risk of gasoline around or in the car. You answer:

"Yes, the static charge should stay on the outside of the car and yes if the gasoline should stay on the inside of the tank."

I think one of your answers should be 'no', no? :0)

Just need to make sure.

Obviously I'm not Bruce but what he said is correct but possibly misleading. The static charge will build up on the outer surface of the car body and liquid gasoline should remain inside the car chassis. However, the invisible highly flammable gasoline vapors might leak outside of the vehicle. I believe that all of the hydrocarbons that make up gasoline weigh more than air so vapors will fall to the ground outside of the vehicle. The chassis to ground gap will be a common path for idle sparks to happen. Now many unknowns will mitigate this scenario (no fuel vapor leaks, sufficient air movement, sufficient air volume for diffusion, etc.) but this should be one of the safety items you should consider.

Thanks redfred!

As I recall tyres contain carbon to prevent static so a potential to earth is out of the question unless you mount the car on insulators.

Contain the VDG in the car and the car becomes a faraday cage. You can have some nice effects in the car.

As to the cars electronics….. Daft idea!

I think you want this as an advertising demo right? I think some of the responders seem to think you are looking for a security feature! (I think if I got shocked by a car, my size eight would leave an imprint on the fender! So much for security.)

Such generators come with a host of warnings...people with pace makers should not be using them, that sort of thing. However, as a TV advertisement spot, it would be pretty awesome! Here is a link to the precautions, but considering they have been used for years to raise hair at tech museums all over the country, the danger is not very high.

A still photo would be easy to do photoshop...just take a picture of the "customer" in the museum standing in front of a green screen with his hand touching the generator ball, and photoshop it into your showroom. Although do-able, it might be too expensive to rotoscope the effect into a tv spot. (120 or more photoshopped pictures instead of 1)

You will have a lot of trouble actually bringing a whole car up to the appropriate voltage even with a generator right there in your showroom....a car has a lot of discharge points which will reduce the voltage as fast as you make it.

We're thinking this would be more of an installation at a dealer or a public area rather than a commercial. But really, the intention is to have some fun, like the kids do at a Science Center.

Pacemakers may be affected by that machine. I guess the car business must be slow. You have too much free time on your hands thinking up hairbraind schemes. Try shooting rubber bands at the other salesmen; that's what we would do when we had nothing to do.

All in all, yes...it is possible.

In order to keep the circuit as simple as possible and to keep losses low the two necessary contact points to close the circuit should be placed on the door handle.

An adhesive backed foil run would do the trick. Yes, it can damage a vehicle's electronics, but maybe not.

This is what you are looking for to answer your questions (to the extreme):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nRqbQr7VGk

I am not going to get all safety-man on this. You asked if it was possible. I answer yes.

Awesome, I never thought about focusing on a certain contact point like the door handle. Something to think about. Thanks!

I guess tying baloons on cars isn't effective any more??

Nope!

As many people here have mentioned, this is possible but it may not be practical. As I think Tony mentioned, many tires today have carbon added to provide a bleed path to reduce the static charge build up that happens from just normal driving. There are though some tires that do not have this additive so one may have to search for a suitable tire. I do have a significant concern here though. The geometry of a Van Der Graaf Generator dome to ground produces a very small capacitor for charge to be stored. The larger surface area of the vehicle chassis to ground will constitute the capacitor where you will be storing charge. With the voltages a VDG can produce, this might convert a harmless toy into a hazardous system.

Then again, my safety related paranoia may just be showing.

Thank you for your two cents. Something to think about for sure. Again, we're not doing anything until everything is thoroughly thought through: safety, production, legal.

Proper type of tire is what was used on early NSX's; toll booth attendants complained, because they kept being shocked by particular cars. Seems they used some substitute for carbon black in order to reduce rolling resistance, possibly so-called fumed silica, and it didn't bleed off the static charges. Supposedly, '94 Acuras with Michelins had the same problem; see http://tinyurl.com/3mbuwk5. For use in a showroom, you ought to be able to drive the tires onto four patches of a really good insulator, maybe teflon, or old-fashioned fiber phenolic sheet. On a really flat surface, you could even use glass.

Make sure the car you start with has metal fenders and doors; a lot of newer ones are plastic, and it may not be at all obvious. You want that van de Graaf "dome" equivalent to be at the outermost surface.

I assume this would void the warranty, In college, I pointed at a Van de Graff generator from 3 feet away to ask a question about it, and it zapped me. Points can draw a charge. Be sure and get lots of pix and video! And right before you try it out the first time, be sure to look into the camera and say, "Hey y'all, watch this!" With luck, you'll go viral! Keep us posted!

I have a bad feeling that the car will be large enough to be a "killer capacitor".

SOunds like a plan to zap a meter maid...

fixin' the x wifes car?

Yep, you can. Van de Graff is not that complicated. An insulating belt, some brushes, a ground connection. Discharging it will fry all your electronics (it will, not may). It will send a guy with a pacemaker into the morgue, and you into a small cell for life.

GRAND!

There are people with the risk assessing portion of their frontal lobe of their brain underperforming. This is one. Needs competent help.

1. u really don't need a van der graf generator.

2.The dielectric constant of atmospheric air is around 25000 volts.Around and above this voltage it would spark between the

anode and cathode in open air(anode and cathode should be seperated by inches).For your purpose of hair raising a few thounsand volts (around 10kv) is enough.The principle is

same as used in electric fences used to deter wild animals.High voltage and low current it would not be lethal and perfectly

legal.

3.tecnically for generation of this voltage an oscillator,a step-up transformer and a high voltage capacitor is enough as u

see in mosquito swatter.More stages of diode-capacitor voltage multiplier can also be used for higher votages.

4.As for the microcontrollers in automobiles now its true all the cars have embedded electronics.U can't use the steel body

for anode contact.Think of specific places like handles etc.Otherwise u can coat the car with an insulating paint.Then apply

a conducting metallic paint which can be used as the anode contact point to charge the 'innocent' people who touch the car

and raise their hair.

5.There is no danger of life because of the low current and short duration of pulse.

6.Got the answer?

1. u really don't need a van der graf generator.

2.The dielectric constant of atmospheric air is around 25000 volts.Around and above this voltage it would spark between the

anode and cathode in open air(anode and cathode should be seperated by inches).For your purpose of hair raising a few thounsand volts (around 10kv) is enough.The principle is

same as used in electric fences used to deter wild animals.High voltage and low current it would not be lethal and perfectly

legal.

3.tecnically for generation of this voltage an oscillator,a step-up transformer and a high voltage capacitor is enough as u

see in mosquito swatter.More stages of diode-capacitor voltage multiplier can also be used for higher votages.

4.As for the microcontrollers in automobiles now its true all the cars have embedded electronics.U can't use the steel body

for anode contact.Think of specific places like handles etc.Otherwise u can coat the car with an insulating paint.Then apply

a conducting metallic paint which can be used as the anode contact point to charge the 'innocent' people who touch the car

and raise their hair.

5.There is no danger of life because of the low current and short duration of pulse.

6.Got the answer?

Quattro80 has asked a reasonable question, in an engineering forum, in advance of taking any risks. Demeaning remarks are in poor taste IMHO. Now let's see if it can be engineered taking all factors and safety into consideration. Maybe yes or maybe not?? What if there was a (decorated) metal plate suspended above the vehicle which could be charged with an appropriate hi voltage, low amp power supply? The car, the platform and person would all be at the same potential, (grounding straps bypassing tires, etc.), so there would be no discharge to the person... But being taller than the car, would be the closest point to the charged plate and would get the effects of the corona discharge. A simple voltage limiter could be employed to maintain things to a mere hair-raising level.

Put aside the question of whether it is a good idea or would damage the car. The Van Der Graaf generator moves charge from the Ball mounted at the top to the base which is usually grounded. So to charge the car as a whole, you would have to somehow get the ground outside of the car and to the earth. Otherwise, all the electric field would be contained inside the car and there would be no effect outside.

So you can't conceal it inside the car without a ground wire going to the outside.

I'm learning so much about this technology, so thank you again to everyone contribution.

I also appreciate just focusing on the physical possibility of this happening rather than unproductive comments. I mean, there's a difference if I came online and said "Hey! I'm going to do this, what do you guys think" to "Hey, is it even possible to build this"?

If I was a complete idiot, I would have just built this damn thing and caused damage not only to a car, but possibly to human life as well, and that's not cool.

In the end, it's all about measuring twice and cutting once. And a BIG and I mean BIG IF this thing goes through using all the precautions, I will be the first to test it out before officially rolling it out.

But it seems like it's going to be a lot of work and precautions. Some nice alternative methods to making the hair rise up. Thanks again, and keep your comments coming.

(I'll keep the forum updated IF we produce this thing. Could be neat.)

If you still want to go further with this stunt, try contacting the auto manufacturer's technical school system. The schools commonly build bodies with the students learning how the cars are made of smaller components. These car bodies can not be sold to the public. They can never be registered, and do not contain anything other than body panels. If you were to paint the windows black, and put some non attached wheels in the wheel wells, you would not have to destroy a new car for the laughs.

Cool. Thanks for that.

I line the green screen approach earlier!

You might have better control of the effect if you had a scale model of the car built with a conductive outer shell placed in a kiosk with suitable warnings and caveats. Line up your kiosk with the showroom vehicles and a PC camera. Snap the "Hair raising" moment and print your sales slogan, car specs, whatever with the photo.

This hair raising moment works best with light haired individuals. A fair portion of the population (bald, curly haired, etc) will not experince the effect. Period. And you shouldn't try to give them this experience. The photo booth approach can come in handy with Photo Shop-ing a humourous head of hair.

That's not the intention of this. The intention is to have an installation where you can physically touch the car. If we wanted to just show someone with their hair raised as they touch the car, we could just photoshop that in; far simpler than using a green screen. Thanks, though.

You are out of your mind..Remember the man that hit the other in the nose saying, "I was just having fun"..The other response was "your fun ends where my nose begins". To many in this moderen world are living just a 'heart beat' away from the last box. It was fun when we were young and healthy, but time changes things.

I'm not here to ask for your or anyone's permission to do this; I'm posting a question on whether or not something like this is possible. Thanks.

I agree with posters who think it is not such a good idea, no matter what the reason. To have a car door handle at a high voltage is actually quite simple, with no "extra" equipment needed (under particular circumstances). I saw this "prank" pulled on someone in our church parking lot as a kid. It wasn't funny.

Thank you, Anonymous poster. Again, this isn't a prank, and I'm not seeking anyone's permission; just want to know whether or not it can technically be done. Seems like it can. It's just a matter of safety.

Thanks again. (?)

It's all good.

Besides the car's electronics, I would also worry about the airbags deploying with the the first spark drawn.

What we have here is a failure of most responders to actually read the posts leading up to their misguided, uninformed nay saying.

Quattro80, unfortunately, this reaction is typical. Half-baked responses from the peanut gallery that add nothing but confusion to the mix. Good luck.

With respect, Lyn, I think many responders have noted how little information was provided by the OP to start with, and wish to establish the parameters of its use. Suppose, for example, that I came to the forum to say "Hey guys, I have this great idea for an electric chair to give people sitting in it a shock", without establishing a reason. Do you not think that a few people might be concerned and ask what it's for?
As for me, I am waiting for someone to provide some numbers for the likely current flows, and then I shall reach for my copy of a draft British Standard which deals with the Effects of Current on Human Beings and Livestock.

As you wish. But, by the 47th response, I'd think we've established the proper safety guidelines.

By the way, I don't expect that my rants will keep anybody from expressing their opinion. Here, all opinions have the same value. Mine is no different. Maybe, just more direct sometimes.

Cheers.

Speaking of safety, please be sure to use a three prong grounding plug. We would not want anyone to get a shock now would we?

I suggested in an earlier post to have an actively charged metal plate hung several feet above the car, with the car, the platform and the person all at the same electrical potential... no sparks. Charge the plate, not the car. Now anyone coming into close proximity to the car, since they are taller than the car and closer to the plate, would likely have a hair raising experience. Adjust height and voltage of plate so as to be out of harms way.

Thank you to everyone who contributed.

No one is building anything yet, but more research has to be done if anything.

Thanks again.

1.) The first thing you need to be installation from Ground and connected to the Va de Graaff for your hair to stand up.

2.) Normally, when your drive car you, it will build up Static Electricity and on cold dry days you may have experience a static discharge getting in or out of the car.

3.) If the static electricity does not pass through the electronic devices it is OK.

4.) In the US Coast Guard we would drop a person from helicopter in a metal basket and we had to ground the metal basket with a grounding rod to discharge the static electricity and it did not hurt the aircraft electronics nor the ships electronics. My ship got hit with lighting and our electronic was not hurt. But I do not KNOW how a lager static electricity charge will affect your car but would guess it would not effect the car's electronics electronics?

5.) IF you still want to do this project, You can use the a "Spark Gap" to limit the voltage output to the min. voltage to do what you want!!

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-build-simple-van-de-graaff-generator-253642/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3fcihyok8E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qgM1A3pgkQ&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qgM1A3pgkQ&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZWoB0P7y18&NR=1

Best luck with your project and please let us know how the project goes?!?!

BEN

Good advertising potential

"The price made my hair stand on end..."

"hair raising deal"

You toucha my car, I raisa you hair--I like it!