What Happened to You ?

Apparently I was always inspired. The earliest sign my parents could recall was getting a phone call from Kindergarten from a distraught teacher after she caught me disassembling the telephone with a screwdriver.

You are my hero!

That is probably the most succcint answer. But why ? "Do not touch", "Danger", "Warrenty void if opened". It's like a challenge or an invite. Where did human curiosity get lost ? We have lost our common sense.

A stubborn innate curiosity is one of the essential ingredients for a good engineer.

If you don't have that you are only going through the motions and will never achieve your true potential.

You hit the spot exactly. Do we regard others (obsessed in 'art') as obdurate bovines ? Without such, we would be uninspired idiots.

I posit that art inspires science, and vice versa.

We all have our place, but what is the 'tick' that makes us one way or another ?

Coin toss, I didn't know people made a living with art except in an abstract way. In my life people who earned a living worked 9-5 and more and usually with a tool in their hands.

Or oddly a typewriter, Asimov and Heinlein never claimed 'inspiration', they both talked about getting up every morning and typing even when they had nothing to say.

I think curiosity inspires everything. It's right or left brain thinking that ticks us into the arts or the sciences.

"Do not touch", "Danger", "Warrenty void if opened". It's like a challenge or an invite.

But what if you haven't yet learned to read?

Some things are just meant to be.

pmsl ! First thing to do with a newborn is to show them 'Hazard' signs. If you get a distainful look, the poor sucker is destined to be an engineer !

Some people just don't understand "us".

I'll bet that you even explained that you had every intention of putting it back together after you had figured out how it worked, too.

Didn't help, did it?

I had that experience with a clock.

I'll bet that you even explained that you had every intention of putting it back together after you had figured out how it worked, too.

I was to young to even remember the experience.

I had that experience with a clock.

Same here, exact same wording. I never did get round to putting that clockwork clock back togeather again.

I don't see a distinction between science and art, but if I'm honest (I do try not to be ) I s'pose I'd say I'm sciece based with an artistic eye on it.
Always been curious about how things work and a scientific observational trait also works as an artistic eye.
Gotta have imagination.
errr... now what was the question again?
Del
_{(So Kris, you are admitting to being a mathsdebator?
Thatth eathy for you to thay.)}

....gnashhh......you traitor...!

In all seriousness, some folk go arty and others..........it's not so different. There is no difference. The real Q is, does one end up painting (no need to cut an ear off) or build a bridge ?

Are we born with such a gut feeling, or do we learn it. My parents were all engineers. Goddam shame for the world of poetry.

I too had 'The Knack' from an early age, welding hair pins with electric outlets, disassembling everything.

But my choice to make it my vocation probably came in high school when I could thumb our required reading and write an essay of complete BS that would get me excellent grades. Reading a lot gave me a good vocabulary, combined with some natural horseshit = great liberal arts grades.

Only science and math had that binary quality you refer to, as well as challenging me.

Hi Edignan, I was just writing the same thing, about my losing respect for "Arty" subjects when I realised how easily plausible BS could be turned into good marks.

I realise now that I was being harsh, the stupid or lazy kids never do maths/physics/chem and so end up in the arts subjects, where they drag the average down. But smart, interested and hard working students of the Arts can have just as much fun as we science types, sure they miss out on seeing a lot of the beauty in the World but they're trying.

These days I try to be in both camps.

I'm both. The artsy, contemplative side gets my head in the clouds. The science side keeps my feet on the ground and prevents me from completely getting lost in the other side.

Probably why I paint for a living, (not pictures). There's an art to it, but it also requires precision. I also get easily bored, so it keeps me in different places, doing different things.

I was at a party once, where some fellow arts professionals were insisting that nothing is new, it's all been done before. I thought this attitude is pretty lame, whether it is "true" or not. And I thought to myself, that's certainly not true of science. Something is always new in science, really new. And there's so much we don't know, still to be learned. It's wide open.

That's one reason I find science and engineering more interesting than art.

I was always interested in both science and art, but I admit I was not born with any aptitude for machines or technology. I started more on the level of a caveman I guess, curious about materials and how things are made.

Good and enthusiastic teachers who encouraged the curiosity of a little kid, along with a Mom who not only encouraged, but didn't mind when I broke stuff beyond repair while learning about it, and took it in stride when I set stuff (including my face and hair, once) on fire. Happily that one only burned all the hair off the frontal surfaces of my skull. But Mom knew what was worth getting excited about it, and didn't believe in protecting me too much from myself.

But probably most of all, it was starting out with an insatiable curiosity.

Curiosity is the most defining feature of any species. It's more tangible than 'intelligence'(whatever that may be). All the 'W's'; Who, what, why, where, when. How should be spelt whow !

"Why did you turn to 'science' rather than the 'arts' ?"

Are you trying to suggest that there is a difference? Are you suggesting that I had a chance to make a conscious choice?

I must have missed that point somewhere along the line. After 30 years of practicing engineering, I stll see the creative, artistic aspect of it. And, when I study my favorite artists, there is still an analytical aspect that enhances the appreciation of the overall beauty.

Just where, exactly, lies the line between art and science?

Soz, but I read Charles' post first - you are of course quite correct. As with the song, the question remains.

No intent for a science vs art debate. Our childhood lifescript somehow dictates whether we become painters or builders. The intent was to see if anybody had a conscious moment that swayed them in one direction or another.

A conscious moment to choose.... There was no need to choose. My firmware did that for me.

hobbit indeed. My father actually inspired my interest in both art and science - he was a taxonomist primarily, and spent much of his career meticulously detailing the minute differences between species which he studied, in line drawings. His enthusiasm for beauty and for knowledge of the natural world was contagious. But he had no aptitude for machines or for 'fixing things', as men are expected to have, and was the butt of some family jokes for that reason. Although he grew up as a farm boy, they did not even have a tractor in his day - it was all done by hand and by horse. So he didn't learn about complex machines by exposure either.

I do think the "knack" is something you're born with, though, because others in my family - my brothers and my son - displayed that kind of aptitude early on, which my father and I both lacked. But not having the knack doesn't mean it can't be learned. The effort required is greater, that's all.

Very good point, there is no clear division line. I could have perhaps expressed it better, but I suspect you know my meaning. Artists use science, and scientists use art. Each has equal value to society.

I can't think how to express the original question better. Somewhere along the line I developed a liking for numbers/facts/problem solving. Some of my siblings were more drawn to communication and expressive talents. Out of 9, I'm the only one that went into engineering (sadly, I am #2. not #7 )

Just looking in notebooks of naturalists, you see incredible, detailed, and yes, artistic drawings of plants and animals - the scientist is using artistry for the viewer to get a grasp of what he sees. Included is a record of the data.

I think they go in hand, and I enjoy both.

I fiddled with chemistry for a while, but it was messy and smelled bad. Electronics was much neater and only smells bad if you let out the magic smoke.

I studied my 6th to 8th standard at a remote village in India. I liked Maths very much and Geography and Sanskrit & Hindi languages next. Science and English subjects I didn't like. From 9th standard I had to choose the steam either Science or Arts or Commerce. Teachers and elders at home never guided about it. I was meritorious student and once my senior students were discussing that Scince is a tough subject & brilliant students should opt for it, so I took Science stream, even though I didn't like except Maths in it. Still Geography is my favourate.

I loved geography at school, but could not get along with the teacher so I ditched the subject at 16. Don't think it would have made any difference to the outcome, though it is interesting to think about.

Noting you are in India, people like Ramanujan fascinate me.

Thanks Kris, Ramanujan was one of the greatest mathematician we ever had. Unfortunately he died young.

After opting for the Science in 9th standard there is further to add. so many things happened in my carrier just by chance. After 11th standard I wanted to do undergraduate cource in Science. I was a poor village boy. I was not knowing that I can become an Engineer. As my friend's father went for admission of his son in an Engineering College, he asked me to apply and I was admitted based on my good rank in 11th standard. In 1976 annual subsidised tution fee for me in engineering was just Rs.200/- (about US$ 4 only) at the rate of Rs.20/- per month.

That is exceptionally brilliant - you are surely an inspiration to others, and I applaud you.

One of my other hero's is Alan Turing. Without him, we would probably not be able to talk across the planet, yet our own government hounded him to death. It's a national shame that has never been acknowledged.

Enough of the sad. Your background and progress are inspirational.

Scuuse me - the Turing Award?

Oh, sorry. I guess the ACM is based in New York

You are right, this is a terrible wrong!

I've never had to justify having The Knack before.

I expect a knock on the door soon. Men in Paisley will come to drag me away for corrupt accumulation of knowledge and conspicuous expression of know how.

Useful knowledge will be socialised and those with the knack will be press-ganged into servitude by the art elite.

Be afraid....

No epiphany for me - just drifted into it. For as long as I can remember I've inclined to the sciences. When I was v. small, it was more about guddling around in ponds & suchlike, but it soon evolved into pulling things apart to see what made them tick (no, not living things!). Then on to model designing/building - cars, boats & planes - with either electric motors or tiny glow-plug engines.

Physics at school all seemed just plain common sense (tho' it got hellova lot tougher after 1st year university).

For some reason, I just liked taking things apart (broken or not) just to see what was inside. Trouble is, I still get that same horror moment when the <whatever> is put back together and there is one screw left over !

Ah, that's the pocket screw.
(just pop it into you pocket and walk away whistling)
Del

Nah, I just blame somebody else .

My mind has always worked in search of why things happen or why things work. Recently I found a fourth grade assignment where it asked what I would be when I was all grown up. Guess what, I was going to be either an engineer or a doctor. All has been science to me. Plus, I am an only child and born under Virgo (september 7) I was inclined by the stars to be an engineer, according to this article:

http://www.careerbuilder.com/share/aboutus/pressreleasesdetail.aspx?id=pr658&sd=9/22/2011&ed=9/22/2099&siteid=cbpr&sc_cmp1=cb_pr658_

I hope you're not taking it seriously - just look at the list:

· Capricorn - engineering, sales, food preparation, law enforcement, skilled trades

· Aquarius - sales, machine operation, military, construction, education, personal care

· Pisces - government, finance, mechanics, skilled trades, law enforcement, fire-fighting

· Aries - hotel/recreation, higher education, construction, engineering, government, information technology

· Taurus - government, legal professionals, healthcare, art/design/architecture, marketing/public relations

· Gemini - social work, food preparation, information technology, sales, law enforcement, fire-fighting

· Cancer - government, higher education, physicians, editing/writing, engineering,

· Leo - nursing, legal services, information technology, education, real estate

· Virgo - editing/writing, education, social work, military, sales

· Libra - engineering, machine operation, healthcare, art/design/architecture, finance, education

· Scorpio - science, attorney/judge, hotel/recreation, machine operation, education

· Sagittarius - information technology, editing/writing, lab technician, social work, education

This is like the "cross my palm with silver" stuff. Pretty well anyone could convince themself that they "fit" (and if they don't, they'd say 'I'm the Special Exception'^[1]).

There may be some slight trend according to the time of year of birth, related to the school intake times, but most of it is sheer hocus-pocus.

[1] That'd have to be me. Let's see:

Pisces - government, finance, mechanics, skilled trades, law enforcement, fire-fighting

Where's Electronics and Software? Oh, I forgot, I'm special.

I'm 'on the cusp', so I can select who I want to be each day .

Shaddup, no you can't !

Look, you want to take this outside ya *****

Wait a minute there - I missed the effing obvious! I design control systems for mechanical devices - so that's mechanics, innit? And what I do is definitely a 'skilled trade'. So I take it all back - astrology really can determine our futures.

Right, then - what's Mystic Meg got lined up for next week? Any chance of a few winning numbers for the lottery?

301111 is the next winning number

Not 95324, then?

Not enough digits, but it's good to see some brains .

Oh, you are such a skeptic...
I prefer the more scentific approach using a tin of prunes..
Tinker,tailor,soldier,sailor,banker, engineer,beggarman, thief.
Del

That's quite a funny site. Astrology is not complete balls ; If others believe in it, it will affect how they treat others. That will then alter their personality.

Some major companies use completely mad methods when interviewing/hiring. Astrology, hand writing style. The list is endless. What leaves me gobsmacked is that it's endemic, not just arty type companies but engineering ones as well.

Difference between art & engineering: when finished an engineering project it can be played with, art is only for looking at! Now, who was it said (something like) I don't design things to look beautiful, but if it's not when its done, I've not got it right?

Damned if I know the quote. Jobs a good'un/touch of Python? Good engineers seem to appreciate art, and vice versa. People in the middle just can't spill. .

in the best case

form & function coincide

As has been mentioned in previous Posts, the aptitude should be the determining factor, not whether there is opportunity for someone in a particular field. If one goes into a field just because it is convenient or pays well etc., they will soon find themselves bored or easily burned out. Either way it will be a drudgery to go to work every day and that's a terrible way to go through life.

I recommend that young people get a job in the field that interests them before they start going to college, or while they are starting college, and they get some experience and find out whether that fits them or not.

Another factor to look at that is contrary to our Industrial Age thinking is to Define what you want in life (long term results, lifestyle, finances, etc.), Learn from someone who has the results you want and then Do what they do. Most of the time people Do whatever is available, Learn from someone already in the trade/field of expertise and that then Defines the lifestyle. We typically get them bass ackwards from the ideal process and people work for 40 - 50 years doing things they hate. " Most people go through life living lives of quiet desperation and go the grave with their song still inside them", Henry David Thoreau.

That is an excellent observation .

I got my start in the field in which I stayed because a Ham operator decided to teach a bunch of little kids electronics. I can't tell you how many times I stayed in engineering, even in the dry times, while I watched my college educated co-workers move into things like real-estate, because "it's where the money is". They didn't love engineering. The engineered for the pay. I always wondered how many others DIDN'T move out when the going got dry, but still didn't like engineering.

I agree. It is necessary, if you are going to make a career of it, to like it, a LOT! And with experience in what you love doing, it is amazing how many variations on what you love doing can be identified. I'm seriously considering studying the technical side of hospital service, once I retire from government service. Which is where I wound up after 18 1/2 years if engineering contracting. Which in turn followed my start, engineering communications for the US Navy.

And I still love what I'm doing.

Yet again, another superb post. Thank you for a most excellent read. Son will be getting a digest off all input - it is much appreciated.

Well, to begin it was because of my dad I got into this racket. Neither he nor mom could fix the car we were living in and swamp water just wasn't conducive to the fermentation process. B'sides, dad drank most of what he cooked up leaving mom and the eight kids to fend for themselves. It was fresh water was what was needed and dad needed a liver.

After these things I looked up and saw a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, "Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this."

So I went to university where I studied hydrogeology and my sister became a doctor of sorts.

Unfortunately, before graduating, the roof of the car developed a leak and the others all drowned in a rainstorm.

_{Ps: the double boiler worked just fine and nobody went blind afterwards. Science as appliance y'know..........}

Well, if it is for the littler nut

I lived in the library section for civil engineering reading about Aswan, Suez, Grand Coulee and the Panama canals.

Slurped up my uncles' books on electrical engineering but also house plumbing.

When I read biographies it was Goethals, or Gorges or Reed in Panama; or oddly I also read about US civil doctors doing health clean up, etc.

Even more oddly, the Tulsa Oklahoma city library had a great section on the engineering of English estates, how to use your steam plant to heat your greenhouse, how to lay steam piping underground to keep out door garden beds warm all winter.

A quote I just came across that fits the OP;

"The first essential in a boy's career is to find out what he's fitted for, what he's most capable of doing and doing with a relish." Schwab, Charles M.

Another idea is that one of the keys to success in life is hard, smart work (working with the right income generating vehicle) over a long period of time. Most people don't understand that in this Information Age that from the neck down we're all worth pretty much minimum wage. It's from the neck up that makes us more valuable.

Sometimes too we may not like necessarily what we do so much, but will it provide the results we want? If we know the results will be worth the work we can hang in there long enough to accomplish those results. We can maybe even learn to love what we didn't necessarily like as we learn and get better with that activity. Maybe we just didn't like it because we didn't know enough about it to start with.

I think it is inborn mostly and sprouts like a seed, when the right "circumstances" are encountered, as in JOAT's telephone adventure. If it was inherent in the telephone there would have been kids all over it trying to take it apart. (Of course, there may have been others who just didn't have the nerve. Voyeurs. )

Because science is intertwined with math -- some would say dependent on it -- math was the first (almost) "twitch" for me. Specifically, my first exposure to algebra in elementary school. I was totally awed by the fact that I could make up equations and there was a solution. Later I would recognize that this leads to the power to, not only discover, but, also predict. I say first but I actually was trying to fix my grandmother's alarm clocks before this school revelation. She might have given them to me to keep me away from the radio and telephone.

From that time on, I liked math and science. And geometry grabbed me when a practical problem was discussed whereby one could measure the height of a tree by it's shadow compared to another object and its shadow. Simple things, but impressive when you first discover them.

The second flowering in school was my H.S. Physics class. And to a large degree it was the teacher's love of the subject that was contagious. He seemed to be talking only to himself at times... just looking off into space with a wonderful look on his face when discussing the lesson for the day. But here again, I don't think you catch that if it isn't inborn in the first place. There were plenty of my fellow classmates who didn't "catch" the bug.

I agree with your last comment in particular. I know that the Ham who taught us electronics taught about 20 of us, but I think I'm probably the only one who stayed with it as a living. And thanks in large part to his enthusiasm, I've been in this or related fields almost 40 years now. And I still love it.

That is the wonderful, "magic," component of education. It is so much easier to learn in subjects where this happens.

born this way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOtoujYOWw0

One day, when I was twelve or thirteen, I figured out (I had missed the lesson where it was taught) what we were doing when, in algebra, we "cross multiplied". That was magic and inspiring and I came top of the class in mathematics that year and close for my final two years. After that it was a drift in which I did no guiding, but ended doing something I thoroughly enjoyed, structural engineering. After high school the youth employment officer looked at my school record,"good at mathematics, I have a job in a drafting room, give it a try. Once there I was captivated.

I think enjoyment of things "scientific" is in one's DNA, if you haven't already done so, take the test for your Myers-Briggs personality type. I would be interested in the results, you might also find them interesting.

You might also read the description of Asperger's syndrome. The official descriptions are for severe cases but one expert described NASA as a playground for people with mild Asperger's.

Laughed so hard I turned blue - These!, These are MY PEOPLE!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002516/

The condition appears to be more common in boys than in girls.

Although people with Asperger syndrome often have difficulty socially, many have above-average intelligence. They may excel in fields such as computer programming and science. There is no delay in their cognitive development, ability to take care of themselves, or curiosity about their environment.

Symptoms

People with Asperger syndrome become over-focused or obsessed on a single object or topic, ignoring all others. They want to know everything about this topic, and often talk about little else.

• Children with Asperger syndrome will present many facts about their subject of interest, but there will seem to be no point or conclusion.
• They often do not recognize that the other person has lost interest in the topic.
• Areas of interest may be quite narrow, such as an obsession with train schedules, phone books, a vacuum cleaner, or collections of objects.

People with Asperger do not withdraw from the world in the way that people with autism withdraw. They will often approach other people. However, their problems with speech and language in a social setting often lead to isolation.

• Their body language may be off.
• They may speak in a monotone, and may not respond to other people's comments or emotions.
• They may not understand sarcasm or humor, or they may take a figure of speech literally.
• They do not recognize the need to change the volume of their voice in different settings.
• They have problems with eye contact, facial expressions, body postures, or gestures (nonverbal communication).
• They may be singled out by other children as "weird" or "strange."

People with Asperger syndrome have trouble forming relationships with children their own age or other adults, because they:

• Are unable to respond emotionally in normal social interactions
• Are not flexible about routines or rituals
• Have difficulty showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people
• Do not express pleasure at other people's happiness

Children with Asperger syndrome may show delays in motor development, and unusual physical behaviors, such as:

• Delays in being able to ride a bicycle, catch a ball, or climb play equipment
• Clumsiness when walking or doing other activities
• Repetitive behaviors, in which they sometimes injure themselves
• Repetitive finger flapping, twisting, or whole body movements

"These!, These are MY PEOPLE!"

That's how I felt with Myers-Briggs!

That is so wrong!!!!

Folk without these mostly positive traits have the "problems".

Is there a titled syndrome for the technically inept?

Is there a titled syndrome for the technically inept?
Muppet?
Del

'Neurotypical' gets bandied about a bit (though I doubt anybody autistic thought of it). How about 'bean counters', 'human resources' etc

*

Aw cr@p...I really must arrange an official assessment. That way, I can take advantage of the DEA (Disabilities Equality Act) 2004 and they can't sack me coz my body language is off....

Suggested careers: Computer Programming, Natural Science, Natural Science Education, Engineering, Management, Entrepreneurship, Law, Librarian.

Famous people of my type: Stephen Hawking, Andrew Grove, Marie Curie, Guy Kawasaki, Igor Sikorsky, Hillary Clinton.

Bit of a curate's egg, really.

I got nearly the same ('cept I ain't no Entrepreneur, and I could have been a Corporate Lawyer).

Like minded :Isaac Newton, Niels Bohr, C. G. Jung, Michel de Montaigne, Michel Nostradamus, Ada Lovelace.

Suggested careers: Computer Programming, Natural Science, Natural Science Education, Engineering, Management, Entrepreneurship, Law, Librarian(???).

Reasonably accurate, being as 'ow I studied Natural Philosophy, and I've earned a crust or two over the last 35 years programming & designing control systems & teaching folks how to use them.

As for Librarian, ook.

Arrrrgh! Just realized I've fallen into my own trap!

Guess wot; Isaac Newton, Niels Bohr, C. G. Jung, Michel de Montaigne, Michel Nostradamus, Ada Lovelace

Mindimasts untie!

I like this bit quite a lot;

"INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know."

& too true;

"Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense"

And look!;

Gandalf the Grey, Hannibal Lecter, Professor Moriarty, Horatio Hornblower, George Smiley

INTP, but so close to the cross-hairs hard to tell

Implies I'd be a more balanced person - bwahahaha!

I reckon admin should allow us to append our member titles with test results .

Might cut down on fights since we could massage our conversations ala Men Are from Mars et al.

But will you find any other INTP's to play with ?

I'm close enough to the cross hairs I should get along with anybody - wonder how I turned out so cranky?

It'll be interesting to see how I score on another day .

Often wondered how I would score after a hectic day of silly tasking.

http://www.filmsite.org/101filmscores.htmlSyncronize

Synchronized scoring

I was about to say that is the most hopeless pickup line I've ever heard ... but with the right delivery, it's got serious potential.

oooof

how many custom deviations do you think you have taken

I did an automated phone version, you couldn't get to the next step in the employment process, without a pass, the system had a cookie for your phone number so there was no do overs

Never got asked to take one as part of interview

About $7.50

it wasn't a position I had more than a passing interest in, certainly not worth spending money on

it is common to see a few questions on a written technical skills tests, designed to gauge compliance to management & loyalty

it is common to see a few questions on a written technical skills tests, designed to gauge compliance to management & loyalty

I'll grant you that, either on paper or in the interview; but a full Briggs-Meyers was a bit beyond my experience was all.

Be afraid.....

My consolation is that many of histories most creative minds had almost indecipherable handwriting.

BM is BS, but I've no doubt companies use such.

Companies use a variety of BS, less here in the states because it is so easy to dispense with employees; but when the market is tight HR uses almost any excuse to round-file applications.

But my former giant multi-national firm had an employee we had hired under Italian law, and it was a five year process to dispense with his services. This also gave him several years to turn into the employee we wanted him to be, so we kept him after all

Because you're far enough away that everybody annoys you?