Garage-Tinkler

Don't know of a turbine but I saw the title and had to ask..............................is that "tinkler" or ""tinkerer"

I guess I qualify for both, behind the garage for the first, in the garage for the latter

Seriously though, wouldn't a simple flat blade impeller fit your needs?

Whether it would spin at 7PSI would depend on the housing configuration.

Vane pumps can go both ways, and as you suggest an open, flat bladed impeller pump will work.

OP, look for reversible pumps and pick your price. You may need a throttling valve to get down to 7 pis.

And for the record, any standard centrifugal pump will produce a reduced flow when running backwards, so you might consider reversing the rotation on the centrifugal pump you already have over there in the corner.

I think you may be right.

Thanks Lyn,

I searched using bidirectional, I'll try reversable.

TTYL Jens

Yes I'm both a tinkler & a tinkerer, because I'm retarded oooops I mean retired.

Yes, maybe a flatblade will do the job, but I looked

all over the google and I didn't find anything I could use.

TTYL Jens

Any good bush will do for "tinkler".....

Something like one of those roof vent turbines, maybe? They spin regardless of the direction of the wind; maybe there is a water equivalent.

(More comment)... For that matter, a turbine that is allowed to pivot and has a 'rudder' can be made so that it turns to face the inflow of water, regardless of the direction.

Is your intent to get some mechanical work from the flow?

If so, what is your output requirement?

Dave

Yes Dave,

I wanna run a car alternator, so it doesn't matter whether it's rotation is CW or CCW.

But I need RPMs greater than 1400 RPMs, so I will probably have to gear it.

TTYL

Jens

NOW, I understand what you are trying to do- I think.

You want to use a water flow into- or out of- this device to cause it to spin at about 1400 RPM or more with water flowing into (or our of) it with a head of about 15-16 feet.

AND, it needs to generate about 2-3 HP of work in either event (to drive the alternator).

If that is correct, you need an inline pump head with about an 8 inch impeller designed for 3450 RPM- probably around 2 inches inlet and 1-1/2" outlet.

Assuming that this will be driven by tidal flow, you will need the pump discharge connected to the open sea and the pump inlet connected to the dammed storage, with a flap check valve at the base of the dam to "fill" as tide comes in. Each side would need a tee with a check valve "feeding" the pump and the branch with a solenoid valve triggered by a float switch going to drain.

As the tide comes "in" flow through the pump "outlet" sill spin the impeller backwards and, as the tide goes "out" flow from the stored water in the dam will drive the pump forward.

Did I guess correctly?

Yes energygod, You kind'a guessed it.

It's a """"reversable"""" river or creek.

How do I calculate the size of this type of impeller
that "vtbgiraud" suggested. (Roots type air blower).

Is there a simple way or ONLY the PHD way to calculate the size of the impeller ?

TTYL
Jens

I believe that the "easiest" way is to go to a pump catalog- that is why I suggested the inline pump head- and look for a pump rated at, say, 5-7.5 HP.

That is also why I GUESSED about 8" and 2" x 1-1/2"- I did not check, just went from memory on about what size would "fit" your need.

I just checked the Armstrong Pump catalog.

A 2 x 2 x 8 pump at 1200 RPM, 150 GPM and 15 ft of head = about 1.5 HP

The same pump at 1800 RPM, 250 GPM and 15 ft of head = about 4.5 HP

SO- a 2 x 2 x 8 pump at 1500 RPM, 200 GPM and 15 ft of head SHOULD be about 3 HP.

Which means that two 16 foot dams with 4" connections at about 1 foot up and reduced to 2" at the pump SHOULD be pretty close to running your alternator. If you want a little safety factor, go to a 3 x 3 x 8.

Armstrong's 3x3x8, at 1450 RPM, 400 GPM and 15 ft. head = about 5 HP.

Hope this helps.

Yes energygod,

I don't have a PHD either. Look at my picture.

But YOU look like one. Ha,Ha.

Thanks for your help

TTYL Jens

my picture is my goal

By the way- I am NOT a PhD, just know a lot about a lot, and think WAY outside that box.

You sure you've done your sums right? If it's a dammed stream with a 15' head, how could you get it to run the other way? Is it tidal?

Please explain more, before we all go off half-cocked.

The OP SAID it is a reversible stream, so a dam on either side of the pump would allow flow to the THEN down-stream side of the stream.

NOT too hard to figure out.

Okay, it's a reversible stream.

Reversible on demand?

it's its

You are right.

For anyone else, look here:-

http://garyes.stormloader.com/its.html

Ye's its it'sssss

TTYL Jens

If an alternator is in use, then the direction of rotation of the device won't matter. Which means it's a different animal to the one originally proposed.

As long as the brushes (if it has slip rings) are not angled for direction....

Andy I have never seen an alternator with a slanted set of sliprings or brushes.

TTYL Jens

Nowadays I haven't either (but there again I haven't taken one apart for many years!), but the heavy duty ones (with a built on vacuum pump) in older Mitsubishi diesels were slanted....almost 30 years ago.

I thought I made it clear.

Yes it is meant for running an alternator.

TTYL Jens

How about stepping up speed with a belt and pulleys just like they do in cars.

You will need a bit of power to spin that alternator. eg only 10A at 12V is 120W. Have you worked out what size turbine you will need with the water flow you have to get this to work yet?

What is your oscillating water flow source?

How about a manifold, diverting or redirecting inflow/outflow, to enable the turbine to spin the correct direction regardless of the flow direction?

[edit] Usbport has a valid observation: Is this water piped or open stream?

I don't know what your planning on doing but if you can find an old washing machine most of them have a pump that will hook up to a drive shaft (its to pump the water out of the washing bin) i do believe that it will run in revise or normal drive. the part is cheap and can be used on a car or well, about anything.. its worth a shot!

[url="http://canddautorepairs.com"]foreign car repair[/url]

Yes C&D,

I'll take a look at one.

I have one I pulled out of an old washer.

TTYL Jens

What will be generating the magnetic field within it in order to make electricity?

Well, hello. Welcome to the insanity.

Wait a minute... is this a Continuous Motion, Gravity-Driven, Power Generator?

Better not be or:

Hey Lyn, you just shot the tire on your car.

It sure looks flat.

TTYL Jens

I ran into the wall on a racetrack.

No Doorman,

It's got nothing to do with that gravity thing.

I had not even heard of it until now.

TTYL Jens

I recall seeing a show out of the UK where the hosts built a small coastal tidal generator. They had about an 8" diameter pipe stood vertically with one end in the water. As a wave came in the water rose and blew air out and sucked air back in as the water level dropped. They found a turbine that spun in the same direction regardless of the air flow. Don't remember much else except it looked like a simple affair. Not sure if it would work in water but the rest of the OP's criteria sound about right.

Hope this helps.

That's the same demonstrated application I remembered.

Its called a Wells Turbine

There are bidirectional turbines for water too.

How about a Roots type air blower. They can easily give 7 lbs. boost and don't care mechanically which way they spin. Not sure what problems you would have due to corrosion with a steel one, but one made out of plastic should work. Good project to build with a 3D printer.

Thanks vtbgiraud for your help, I just looked at wiki and it looks like this type of impeller system will do the job. I'm pretty sure it will rotate when I supply water to either of the ports. I have never heard of this type of impeller. Most of my working life was in electronics and instrumentation. Thanks a million TTYL jens

I must not understand anything, at all, about what you are trying to do. I see absolutely no possibility that a roots type blower could ever work in this application.

These are close tolerance air pumps. Any debris at all will lock this thing up in a heartbeat. I'm talking clearances of .001 inch. Turning it backwards will reverse the input shaft (output in your case) rotation.

Please send pictures. I'd really like to see this in service.

Lyn, I have no pictures so far.

It's just an idea that popped up in my "block of wood".

TTYL Jens

PS : maybe I'm wrong.

I'm gonna talk to my son and ask him if such an impeller will do the job.

He's got much better smarts than me when it comes to mechanical systems.

He's got several degrees.

Thanks for your help

Don't think this was mentioned above. How about something like an undershot water wheel as used to power old grist mills? But scaled down a bunch.

Yes Lehman,

That's another gooood idea. The paddles will run in the direction of the waterflow and my alternator doesn't care whether it rotates CW or CCW.

TTYL

Jens

Jens

The last suggestion of an undershot wheel gets my vote. Look up 'boat mills' on a website called www.lowtechmagazine.com This type of water powered device provided most of the industrial power in Europe from 635 AD up until steam power took over in the eighteenth century.

Assuming you manage to get the automotive alternator going fast enough remember the cooling fan may be directional. Look for fan blades that are radial, not slanted. Radial fans doesn't matter but spin slanted ones backwards and it doesn't cool well.

The slanted blades do provide better cooling air when spun in correct direction. However We tested alternators with radial type blades and measure about 1% difference between the two directions of rotation.

We did not bother to determine what factors in construction made the difference.

I am curious as to what type of alternator you use that only require 1400 RPM. Even the low speed custom wound models have difficulty developing high output at such low RPM.

Yes elnav,

I'm aware of the i/p rpms of alternators. The 1400 rpm is appx. cut in.

But some that I have worked on start cut in at 900 rpm.

But I would never go higher than about 3200 rpm.

They can spin themselves to dead.

Not like in the old days where some windings (on generators) were on the armature, but alternators can still destroy themselves at higher rpms which the manufacture put as the upper limit.

TTYL Jens

All modern alternators will spin at 5000 RPM guaranteed. Check their spec sheet and output curve. Some high performance car models are guaranteed to 10,000 RPM. Got one in the garage. Problem is these high speed units have curt away fingers so their cut in speed is higher. Electrodyne and the old VLF series from Prestolite were pretty good low-end performkers.

The paddle wheel gets my vote as well- much easier to build and very easy to calculate diameter needed to provide adequate driving HP for the alternator.

Also very easy to provide gearing needed for adequate speed without high speed spin of the paddle wheel AND you don't need a dam to mount the wheel- just set in the flowing creek.

Jens

What kind of set up have you got up there, pumped storage in the mine?

I see what looks like a couple of dams but nothing that looks to be reversible.

Paddle wheels will do better at low head and pressure than harris style turbines.

Would this help?