Recharging Batteries While Driving

hook it up with you braking system wouold help.......do not know what your ROI would be.

I will check with my techs ( I know about the method , it is being used on new Electric Cars ----- THANK YOU

Your "tech" guys?

WTF? I haven't seen anyone score this many OT votes in his own thread in some time!

Your right up there with Joe Fordham, Kastruptsky, DAS, and a few others now for scoring the most OT's in ones own thread! If I didn't know better I would suspect you had never designed a EV (RC toys don't count you know) let alone built one given the present evidence.

Where's Curly?

Curly wouldn't participate. He knows which end of a screwdriver is the pointy end.!

I would mark myself OT but then look at what I am competing against.

Make sure your car is 100 feet long, the top is completely covered with panels, and the car weighs 250 pounds or less (including panels). Your design should then work when driven in full sunlight if you are skinny.

Point well made but with a healthy dose of hyperbole. There are many examples of fully solar powered vehicles done today. These vehicles are only suitable for the solar challenge contests that happen around the planet at this time but one has to start somewhere.

Solar should not be the most important way relied on. I have been working on Solar for 3 years and the weather to to unpredictable if you are driving long distances.

I've often wondered why, in addition to regenerative braking, we don't have small generators that kick in every time the car is coasting or rolling down hill? Maybe we're doing it and I just haven't heard about it.

Regenerative braking of an electric vehicle going downhill is often done to maintain speed. Running an ICE and generator to recharge an EV while coasting is actually the wrong thing to do for efficiency. The battery has a finite amount of energy that it can store. A depleted battery can accept the regenerative braking energy, but a fully charged battery cannot accept any more energy. Now depending on the design of the power plants the ICE may run a generator to power the electric motor(s) or

I would imaging that's how it goes with a hybrid. When the ICE is running, it's power is sent through the electric system. What is not used for the wheels probably automatically goes to the battery. Same system the alternator on a car uses. What power that is not running accessories is available to charge the battery. When none of them have demand, the alternator does not put much load on the motor. The voltage regulator controls all that.

EZ-GO(non-endorsement) is doing that with electric golf carts. I play a hilly course here and the first time I drove one of the new carts there, I was shocked (not in the electrical sense) when it felt like someone was applying the brakes as I coasted down this large hill.

_{Still not sure what the OP is up to here. Hope he knows.}

I've felt the same thing. Somehow I can't help but think that it's more about preventing drunken idiots from going too fast, than about generating electricity.

Yeah...............we drink while golfing.

are you answering to the op.....oh wait. you are the op.

how bout sharing.

I was answering REDFRED

I know you were, I had asked to share.

You also have to realize whether its outdated or not.

On an engineering forum, sometimes it can be advantagaous to revisit old technolgy.

Now, if only you could write what you mean!

You might want to check the efficiency of "painted on" solar cells.

Your car must now be 1000 feet long, and you my friend will need to diet.

i.e., the latest, frontline technology isn't always the best.

I know, i just wanted to see if we had anyone else that did

Its not literally paint on tech by the way and at the moment running at 1 - 2% efficiency is pushing its limits.

For the rest of us who are curious as to how "paint on" solar panels are actually built,

http://news.discovery.com/tech/paint-your-house-get-solar-power-111223.html ,

I don't know about anyone else but I don't see this as being something that would be cheap, easy, or durable enough to use on a vehicle.

So care to explain how you are putting this on your EV's and making it practical enough to actually work in real life working conditions?

(I hope you didn't paint yourself into a corner all ready.)

I've got an idea.

Hang a big honkin wind generator on the roof and put sails on it too.

Then you can put those bicycle generators, one on each tire, and you'll be good to go.

Forget solar panels, too fragile.

And, this:#4 is RUDE!

no use the solar panel as a wind sail, that what you get is dual useage.

now we're cooking with gas.

Wait, you'd better get that OK'd by the OP as the latest technology, lest we get hit by :#4

I'll send it to marketing, repackage it, and call it new and improved......making memo now.

I helped with a 'commuter' solar car for Villanova University twenty years back. It had folding solar panels that could be deployed when the car was parked. Extra panels could be put over the windshield, too. While the commuter was at work, the car was charging in the parking lot. I thought it was a good idea.

You might, with a ton of money, be able to build something that worked every once in a while, but it would be unreliable and undependable...so unless you had some sort of reliable backup source of power, it would be nothing more than an example of how far we have come and how far we have left to go....in other words, just a curiosity.....I would add a wind generator to the charging system while parked, and the deploying flower collector array, and only drive short distances....It would be a fantastic waste of money, and you would realize that when somebody passed you by, laughing, on an E-bike...

I'm guessing your concern is charge time (?)

In the UK, a lot of filling stations stock Calor Gas, used to fire-up whatever appliance at home. You buy a cylinder load of gas, then take it back (to any stockist) when empty and pick up a new one. Could that principle not work with an EV battery ? Probably, but I don't think the petrochem giants are desparate enough to let that happen at this point in time.

Before anybody says 'that's no use if you run out of juice halfway down the freeway', I was thinking of a vehicle with two batteries.

Question : Is your main business solar panels, or vehicles ? Please don't take ofence (it's just my fairly uninformed opinion), but ROI with solar panels doesn't look that attractive, and I'm wondering if you are looking for expansion into different applications because of that.

Solar might soak up enough power (let's say over 16 hours) to feed the CD-player whilst driving for a few hours, but I can't see how it can make much impact on fuel economy.

Haven't looked at your profile yet to see if you have a website or anything, but is there any more information you would be willing to divulge ?

all them batteries......

One battery split into two battery packs.

It all seems absurd, but one day the internal combustion engine will be a gonna. The OP didn't go as mad as suggesting windmills etc, so why not take advantage to discuss lecky cars.

If you were to read the FAQ's and rules, you would know that publishing your e-mail address and phone number is prohibited by the administrators of this web site.

You seem to have done both.

He's highly diversified. OK, well highly something.

Solar Swimming Pool Motor & Heating

but he was working on solar for three years........

I was raised on a farm and I've been working under solar for over 8 times that long.

Oh the design,,,yeah I got that...

It's been done.

Don't be deterred by the cruel people, I'd like to see some pictures.

Don't go shoot your coworkers.........................first of all, it's not their fault. Secondly, it's no way to make the news. Good luck.

I agree, but can't i wing them a little !

Well Google let me down on the Mr Washington IBM super battery search, go figure, so if he is in the news give us a link otherwise... Well you know, seeing is believing as so far you have yet to give us one single tangible anything to look at.

I am just saying.

http://www.ecofriend.com/ibms-lithium-air-battery-give-500-mile-range-electric-cars.html

I didn't bother to search for Mr. Washington. There are so many; Booker T., George, State of, there must be more, help me....................

Battery500 Project

And how will we know if it is you in the news--do you have an actual name or something?

I don't think most of the replies (mine included) were meant to be cruel, but rather to point out the obvious.

Battery technology is not quite there, although it is getting closer. Solar panels will not do the job yet either.

The OP stated a goal of being able to travel without recharging, and also stated he has 3 years of solar experience.

Sometimes it is hard to take statements which seem mutually exclusive seriously. I for one would love to see this car in action, and really hope one day I will. Unfortunately, the technology is not yet mature.

I was having a little tongue-in-cheek fun with you all, whilst trying to get more info from the OP.

It'll be a few decades before either electric cars or solar panels make sense. As for solar panels mounted on a car to make it move.....

I owned a full electric car for a number of years. A stock Ford Electrica built in the early 1980's that ran off 16 6 volt 220 Ah deep cycle golf car batteries and it had a fairly reliable range of at least 40 mile on a charge in normal driving conditions.

The thing is the current lithium based battery tech packs around 10x the power per given volume as deep cycle lead acid batterys do so to me that says right there that presnet battery tech is more than capable of running in the same realistic driving conditions today as any typical gas powered car.

BUT the issue is not the battery's as so much the manufactures willingness to put enough of them in a car to do any realistic good. What I mean is we have the battery tech to do the ranges now but for what ever reason they down sized the batterys by 10x and gave us the same range lead acid was packing 30 years ago.

If they come up with a super battery that can go 10x over lithium based battery's I rather expect them to just downsize those one more time and still leave the vehicles with the same driving ranges as they do now once again.

As far as charging the batteries they still have to obey the laws of physics and that dictates that a very large amount of energy has to be supplied to get any reasonable range of driving which means that 2% efficient solar panels trying to charge up a vehicle that can drive 500 miles on one charge is going to need 12 hours of sunlight every day of the year just to get one charge cycle done.

I don't know about the rest of you but I drive a whole lot more than 500 miles year and need to go places more than once a year as well.

Even if these super batteries work as advertised, this thread is about charging while driving....The batteries do not address this question...

<...Charging while driving...>? If the converse were true then batteries would not be needed. This doesn't make sense.

Yes it could just like your 'paint on' solar panels could charge it. The problem is the energy required to do any of it which you have yet to give one single sentence of practical information on.

A small two seater econo car (bigger faster golf cart) still takes around 200+ watt hours of energy per mile driven even at a conservative 45 MPH.Thats physics facts that can not and will not be ignored by nature whether you believe it or not.

500 miles at 45 MPH and 200 Wh per mile means you would need a battery capable of holding some 100,000+ watt hours of energy.

Do you even have any idea how much 100 KWh of energy is or how it relates to any common devices we all use every day?

Here is one point on the curve for your considerations: The OSU Solar Car racing team car covers most of the top of the car with solar panels and the get a maximum of around 1400 Watts from the solar panels. This is about 2 horsepower. Don't turn on the A/C if you want to make the car move!

I'm sure this has been discussed....anyway....once your rolling along your wheels are turning to which you can translate into a form of generator with an on and off engagement device. Real time battery indicator will inform you of charged capacity. Each wheel charges different requirements..you choose.

You seem to have neglected the fact that attempting to charge your batteries with wheel generation would apply braking force equal to load plus loss due to efficiency...This would only be practical if you were attempting to stop the vehicle..

There is a simple solution, use supercapacitor and maby supercapacitor hybrid batteries

And if you want to use a solar cell, then you might try to overclock them with fresnel lense. Just a thought...

Install a solar panel,wind powered generator on the car as well as regenerative braking.

Why hasn't anyone come up with a hand powered generator that the driver or passenger can operate while driving. A simple pump handle turning a crank connected to the generator would do. Turn up the ZZ Top and literally go to town. Passengers could use a stair-climber like pedal system. Nobody rides for free. More efficient air conditioners will be needed though. _{Patent pending. All rights reserved.} Too much work you say. Are you serious about Eco or not?

Getting passengers to crank might be fun, but they would want food stops. Does anybody know of an existing thread that discusses the efficiency of cranking in this way? It'd be better to go Flintstone style, but when the kids are bored/done something wrong, you could simply make them go charge batteries.

Ta, Jag, you have just prompted me to look up something that has flitted thru my head before. " The rhythmic noise, darling ? I'm just powering the computer and browsing the internet"

Time to stock up on Elfen cookies.

Do you mean,that nobody has come up with greater generator that we used to light our bike lights.

Go back to "now we're thinking...how about magnetism"...you'll have better luck (and cohorts).

About 20 years ago I tried to interest makers in shock absorber movement for the
generation. (recharge batteries) The idea was not attractive to them at the time.
Perhaps the roads are too smooth now.

How wide would an inductance strip need to be, to charge from the road way?

I am thinking that an induction charging wire could be placed intermittently, in
the slow lane and at selected "recharging" points. e.g. at islands, junctions, etc.
where the vehicles are near stationary or slow moving. Just an idea.
(exposed overhead wires would make the streets look a mess, imo)

We dismiss wind power to recharge the batteries but, there are accurate sensors
now to determine the wind direction and maybe a tricale charge be obtained from
a simple rotating air vane, at the appropriate times?

I have other ideas but a bit hairy-fairy. (the ideas) Idle thoughts.

jt

On his death bed, my grandfather sold me his gold pocket watch.

"When you come to a fork in the road...Take it!" Yogi Berra

Just plug it into the cigarette lighter!

(Kinda like this!)

PLACE IN YOUTUBE.COM //// Electric Car Battery's Record Range of 280 Miles Per Charge

I had a look but didn't see any links to your company website or the technology you mention (specifically the custom solar panels you are manufacturing). I read some of your previous posts (some of which are rather bizarre) but that didn't help.

Can you provide more details on this please, as it appears you are just a solar panel (manufacturer/assembler?) and I am not aware of any solar panel technology (in production or in the lab testing phase) that has enough output to be anything but a gimmick for extending the range of electric or conventional internal combustion engine vehicles, not eliminating the need to stop and recharge.

Yes solar racers do use solar panels and batteries but these are specialised vehicles for special applications only.

Can you please provide more information.

You went to youtube.com and did not find that link for that battery?

I read all the corresponding articles I could find on the internet (including the company website), and while the battery technology is interesting it is still just a lithium metal chemistry battery (but with the promise of greatly reduced production costs and a 27 year design life) in the field trial stage at the moment.

This is interesting (thanks for the heads-up I hadn't seen this exciting-if-it-can-be-commercialised-and-meet-its-expectations development) but it doesn't relate to the original question of ways to charge EV batteries.

Could you answer some of my questions now?

read my other links: http://www.ecofriend.com/ibms-lithium-air-battery-give-500-mile-range-electric-cars.html

Didn't you see #39?

Pretty sure the OP has selective vision (and maybe a few other disorders) and can only read what he wants to read that agrees with his views/day dreams.

Maybe he's just got a lot of irons in the fire, and some of them aren't very hot.

Have a look for yourself. I guess this is the guys site.

http://www.ezstore.info/

Lots-o-irons.

It's actually a secret spin-off from LynDoor™Industries.

We've been keeping it under wraps until it became an instant sensation.

We thought ez said it all.....................................

If true (and it looks like it is) this is pure import/sales, not manufacturing. I have been mislead.

Interestingly (from the website) apparently the gas companies only made 30 million in profit last year, yes "poor things".

Link

_{Jack - Love the trike in the link}

$30 Million huh?

My sources suggest around $140+ Billion. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/29/big-oil-profits_n_913452.html

And he wonders why he gets on respect for credibility. (Not touching his web site with a 10 foot pole though.)

Arrogance ignorance and Google. The three things that have lead to the downfall of how many who have wandered in here?

probally looking for endorsements.

If you really want to run with out stopping to recharge. find a small generator that will put out what your electric motor needs in watts to run at the speed you expect to drive. Next get a small diesel motor to run the generator. Make sure to choose one that has enough horse power to run the RPMs you need to get the power out of the generator. Its best to find a diesel motor that gets its best efficiency at the RPMs you need the generator to run at. You will still need batteries and a small fuel tank for the diesel. the batteries are for acceleration where you will use more power than the generator puts out. the recharging happens on down hills and at slower speeds.

This all assumes that you already have the controller for the electric motor. this does add weight. now fit it all in a pretty package and drive it.

Mother earth news had published plans on doing this in the early 70s with a gas engine. I had an Opel cadet set up, but the weight of the 12 car batteries was too high for the suspension making it a dog to drive. still got the driver motor and generator, smoked the controller.

Well let's see what information we gained Regenerative braking Hand crank generator instead of pedals Is what you proposed And this is what scientists are working on Red leds Air core generators Joule thief circuits None of you mentioned any of these items Know a little more then you thought. Oh yes , we did build a EV car years ago, but now because of technology we are going to give it another American try. ( the original one costs lots of money and did not go far. Did anyone ever see the Citicorp

Hand crank generators are only as good as the hands cranking them and most people wouldn't be able or willing to crank much over 10 watts continuous let alone power a EV that takes 100's of time that energy to go any place. I would walk first.

I have no clue as to how red LED's directly relate to EV drive tech in any way.

I know what at joule thief is and I have serious doubts that a device that can pull the last milliwatt of energy out of battery, without actually being a dead short, is not going to do much for EV drive systems unless you have a source for millions of nearly dead alkaline batteries and way to haul them at the same time.

Air core generators still need a driving force that comes from some form of energy to begin with.

At the moment I have a strong suspicion that they never got mentioned simply because those who know anything about applied physics and engineering... Well if I have to explain it you clearly aren't getting it anyway.

Apparently he may be serving his purpose in life.

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/08/the-power-of-st.html

And here is a theoretical power source for his EV charging systems too which now makes this an on topic post!

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Stupidity_Reactor

You are so immature, I could never belittle myself to your heights Because you can not see the light in the distance , like the others. I could put links and other items depicting you two, i would rather stick to the subject at hand.

this a very appropriate answer. good answer from me.

Its not really an answer. Its a point of trying to make the OP address questions.

But since there is not a GP (Good Point) I have to gave a GA.

I just stated what I felt most of us here who take alternative energy and related concepts seriously tend to feel in some way when we get a poster who claims to be doing things with new tech but gives absolutely no indication that they are truly doing anything other than tossing names around to try and sound impressive.

I for one owned a Ford Electrica EV some years ago that was based on early 1980's tech and being I am very familiar with industrial and commercial electrical power systems I found the tech from back then would have been more than adequate to compete with typical driving conditions and ranges normal IC powered vehicles work in had such battery tech and NiMH and lithium based batteries been around. The motors where there the controllers for those motors where there and the charging systems where there as well all they needed was a battery system that could hold 5x - 10X what the common deep cycle LA batteries of the day carried. New NiMH certainly fits that power to size/weight ratio and all the lithium based battery tech is above that.

For me when someone wants to talk about alternative fuel and energy tech I want real conversations that I can get something from or give something useful to in the end. So far this OP couldn't get past bicycle generators and day dreaming let alone cover even the most basic principles of electric power such as wattages and battery storage capacity numbers which I for one could grasp the concepts of before I was even in high school.

I been watching this thread, and there has been more on topic post without the OP envolvement then with, OP tends put himself as the fourth person in the holy trinity

Speaking of electrics and the advancements,

I had owned a yale electric forklift that was powered by DC motors.

I had replaced it with new batteries and was talking to the Yale rep which said the Yale was coming out with AC motors, and this was over 5 years ago. When you own a electric vehicle, you can help but learn from it.

"OP tends put himself as the fourth person in the holy trinity"

Would fourth position be that of the the holy bullsh!ter?

Regarding the brushless DC drive systems I too have seen that tech that has been around fore some time as well and that too is what I consider to be very much off the shelf tech that could easily be set up into a near plug and play system for EV use.

I have considered that just by taking a stock VFD unit designed for a 208- 240 VAC input and setting up to run off a 300 - 400 VDC battery bank it could make a very solid and reliable speed and regenerative braking controller with near zero modification or rework. Plus it would allow for either a PM synchronous or a cheaper common 3 Ph induction motor to be used as the main drive more as well.

Its this vast and easy availability of commercial electric motor control tech that bewilders me as to why the big auto manufactures are having such a hard time coming up with a cheap cost effective and reliable EV in general when it already on the market and has been for some decades now.

(Maybe they cant over the concept that there are better things than using bicycle generators and hand cranks either?)

Its this vast and easy availability of commercial electric motor control tech that bewilders me as to why the big auto manufactures are having such a hard time coming up with a cheap cost effective and reliable EV in general when it already on the market and has been for some decades now.

The automotive (electronic) market is like the military, you need high-spec gear tested and approved to special standards. Standard industrial gear just isn't designed and tested for such things as extreme high and low operating temperatures for example. Then there's the standardisation and approval process...........

The industrial market is so much simpler.

" The automotive (electronic) market is like the military, you need high-spec gear tested and approved to special standards. Standard industrial gear just isn't designed and tested for such things as extreme high and low operating temperatures for example. Then there's the standardization and approval process..........."

You have compared typical automotive wiring and component designs to actual commercial grade parts and materials right? Any commercial component manufacture would be ran out of town if they built their products to the specs that auto manufactures build theirs.

Commercial gear is built to be ran at 100% of it ratings continuous duty where as automotive gear barely makes it past the warranty period and that often entails only several hundred running hours of actual usage when compared to miles driven or months used.

A 5 year 100,000 mile warranty is only 2000 running hours if the vehicle ran an average of 50 MPH. Commercial components and devices often times are rated for 50,000 - 100,000+ running hours minimum life times.