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# Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 1:43 AM

Is it possible to generate power by rotating magnetic field using high speed switches.??? example:

Let us consider a small generator with 20 coils 5 coils are exited at a time with current ratio of 1:2:3:2:1. At instant one the coils 1,2,3,4,5 has to be exited in 1 direction whereas the magnets 11,12,13,14,15 has to be exited in other direction and the remaining coils remains unexited.

At instant two the magnets 2,3,4,5,6 has to be exited in 1 direction whereas the magnets 12,13,14,15,16 has to be exited in other direction and the remaining magnets remains unexited.

At instant three the magnets 3,4,5,6,7 has to be exited in 1 direction whereas the magnets 13,14,15,16,17 has to be exited in other direction and the remaining magnets remains unexited.

This cycle has to be repeated and as one revolution is completed one distorted sine wave will be produced whose magnitude depends on various factors. This can be either converted to dc signal or can be passed through filters to get a pure sine wave. is this possible?? if so we could get enormous energy

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#1

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 1:52 AM

Anything is possible.

Too late to do the math tonight, but the 20 coils can work, since it's a multiple of 360.

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#77

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/18/2012 2:32 PM

Minor quibble: 20 is a divisor, not multiple, of 360. This doesn't affect the conversation much, though.

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#78

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/18/2012 5:40 PM

It shouldn't have affected the "conversation" at all.

Kibble. quibble, what the heck!

It's a joke, as is this thread.

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#79

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/18/2012 6:18 PM

Don't want to come all 'Mr. Pedantic', but I think you'll find that should be "Quibble, shmibble ...". Jus' sayin'.

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#2

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 1:59 AM

"Is it possible to generate power by rotating magnetic field using high speed switches.?" - No.

All you've done is make a fancy transformer.

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#3

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 2:06 AM

a transformer is singly exited here im giving seperate exitation with varying current so as to produce a field such as a salient pole produces. its just an example but improvising it by increasing the number of coils with small radius and having armature coil of greater radius... wont it work??

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#6

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 3:43 AM

Comment withdrawn.

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#4

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 3:21 AM

Yes of course you can generate a rotating magnetic field by switching coils.
After all, that's pretty much how a simple DC motor in a child's toy works (the switching being done by the commutator.
I sincerely hope you don't think it can somehow be used to generate more power than it consumes.
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#5

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 3:35 AM

Here all parts are stationary... im trying to generate power instead of mechanically rotating the parts... the varying current makes the coil to cut the magnetic field hence more emf is induced as per faradays law... the power is from switching device... i know if this works then the entire science would change but still there is a possibility... every one says its not possible but i want to know why it is not... practically implementing it needs further development and needs lots of bugs... please help me if any one can

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#7

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 3:49 AM

but i want to know why it is not...
Hysteresis, iron losses, switching losses, resistive losses.
One of the biggest factors is the simple fact that as you switch off a current from one coil it generates a back EMF which will cause losses even with clever flywheel diodes and shuch like.
Start with a simple coil and you will soon find you can't get more out than you put in. Maybe even try it with a glass and a bottle of beer... I've done extensive research and have yet to extract moor beer form a bottle than was in there to start with.

All these schemes (electrical and mecanical) seem feasible at a casual glance until you try and extract power from them.
As a mecanical analogy, a really heavy pendulum on the best bearing you can find, swinginging in a vacuum will keep going for ages... but if you try and couple it to anything doing usefull work it will soon stop.
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#8

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 4:06 AM

i agree its difficult but it is possible there is no mechanical rotation and hence no back emf... i dont mind about those losses for now... if this device is going to work that then there is some new form of source for energy that is what i want. and this mechanical pendulum is not analogous with this discussion

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#9

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 4:16 AM

"There is no-one so deaf as the one that will not listen" - Anon.

Show how the device can operate in accordance with the Laws of Thermodynamics.

If it violates any of these laws then it belongs here.

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#12

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 6:49 AM

it does not violates those laws. its not an isolated system energy is being given through magnetisation ... if at all it doesnt produce power greater than unity it ll at least convert dc to ac... the rotation is similar to mechanical rotation and i dont use any gravity or perpetual motion please understand the problem. i dont need any analogy i need the exact reason why it wont work

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#13

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 6:59 AM

Then perhaps a better explanation of how it is supposed to work is needed.

• Where is the energy source coming from to drive the thing?
• How much power is expected to come out of the thing?
• Etc.

A device that converts DC to AC can be called an "oscillator", and can also be called an "inverter" - both are established techniques.

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#14

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 7:18 AM

switching between coils is done using plc or some supporting boards for regulating the direct current on each coil say a current of 1 amp 2 amp 3 amp 2 amp and 1 amp is supplied with a voltage say 30 v... and other explanations i have given in question... well oscillator does not convert dc to ac by this principle....

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#15

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 7:27 AM

OK. 270W goes into this device. How much is supposed to come out, and in what form? Heat?

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#16

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 7:38 AM

K... ill explain clearly.. consider a salient pole ac generator and visualise how it rotate the magnetic field i.e., dc poles using a prime mover and produces alternating current.. what im trying to do is that instead of using a prime mover and mechanically rotating the poles im rotating it thorough switches... the reason for varying current is to produce the same gradient as the actual pole does... care is taken so that each and evry conductor is cut fully with this varying flux... i guess the power induced will be greater than the power given to it even if not it ll be usefull for converting hvdc lines to ac lines...

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#17

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 8:14 AM

<....the power induced will be greater than the power given to it...>

WALOOB. Guess again.

<...even if not it ll be usefull for converting hvdc lines to ac lines...>

Not if it starts at 30VDC, 1-3A!

So there's no other numbers to this thing? How peculiar.

A device that produces more power than it consumes is called an over-unity device, and the concept doesn't work in this universe, as the link above will illustrate. Such a concept would violate the First Law.

Abandon the idea and do something more productive with the time.

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#32

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/16/2012 8:05 AM

Arguing over wither it is possible or not may not be conducive to your personal needs. If you have the time and money to build a prototype then do so, check the results pro or con. No matter the outcome you will have gained a lot of knowledge all pro even if end result is not as desired. The late Carroll Shelby when questioned on his success in life stated with out hesitation that his failures led to his success. I am of the same opinion.

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#10

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 4:45 AM

Back EMF does not rely on rotation.
How does an old fashioned car ignition coil work? A current from a 12V battery is passed through a coil, it is interrupted by the contact breaker and a huge pulse is generated.
If you don't believe it connect a 9v battery across the primary of a mains transformer and hold the terminals, you will feel nothing, but if the circuit is broken you will get a jolt.
Del
(I'm out before I get another yeah but...)

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#11

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/15/2012 5:03 AM

It looks as though the original poster has scampered away too.

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#35

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/16/2012 9:35 AM

I've done extensive research and have yet to extract moor beer form a bottle than was in there to start withHAHAHAHAH!

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#37

### Re: Rotating magnetic field electrically

08/16/2012 9:39 AM

That doesn't sound like a good enough reason to abandon the programme. Presumably the funding for this research is still in place?

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#18

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 10:17 AM

The word for today is "commutator."

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#19

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 10:39 AM

A similar technology already exists as a crude way of changing speeds in an induction motor. Do a search on the term "cycloconverter". There is no reason I can think of off the top of my head why it would not work the other way, but it is incredibly complex, expensive, generates a lot of heat and is prone to failure, that's why you don't see it used much and most people have not heard of it.

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#20

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 10:43 AM

I think the word for the day is, "you're totally bonkers"!

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#23

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 1:33 PM

thank you at least one or two like you accepts the working... we have sophisticated equipment in all the fields working on this will lead to some new discovery i hope but no one is ready to hear this and say it is rubbish... i myself want to work it out but very expensive that is why i have posted it in this forum to know whether any one has worked on it already...

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#30

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 7:07 AM

It needn't be expensive. Checking out some textbooks on physics, and thermodynamics in particular, from the local lending library ought to be relatively cheap.

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#95

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 3:12 PM

Forget the Nay sayers, I agree with you and hope you are successful. Don't give up but do beware of corporate snopes looking to shut you down if you do something that may put them out of business whereas they turn the legal dogs loose and force you to comply with their demands and sell out. Just a warning as it happened to a friend of mine. Godspeed

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#105

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/20/2012 6:40 AM

What isn't really understandable is why a highly-principled inventor with a solid-enough claim to have developed a new device such as this would be so foolhardy as to publicise the concept before having at least built a working prototype and without having exploited the prototype for personal use. One sees this sort of thing time after time in free-energy/perpetual-motion/over-unity threads. Does the inventor want the market for such a device to be pulled elsewhere, or are such claims really an invention for parting gullible investors from their money <rhetorical question>? At least the latter would provide some justification for legal action from out-of-pocket investors, though one might argue that it is easy to part a fool from money and that such individuals are therefore the inventor's lawful prey.

Interesting, innit?

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#33

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 8:17 AM

Yes, he can buy a VFD and do it with an AC motor, Hey he just invented a motor..

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#21

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 12:50 PM

The problem is you're not rotating fields, the conductor has to be dragged through the magnetic field to generate current flow. Every time you energize you are creating a new field....

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#22

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 1:28 PM

that is the reason im varying current throufh field coils... these coils are very small when compared to armature coil...this gives the same effect as dragging a conductor... it wont produce a pure sine wave but a distorted one

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#24

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 1:34 PM

Then you're just creating a transformer of some sort....energy in = less energy out....

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#25

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 1:39 PM

transformer takes ac as input it does not take dc... moreover its magnetic field will not rotate as in this case...

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#61

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 6:46 AM

So, why does this field rotate? What is it supposed to do?

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#64

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/17/2012 10:51 AM

Good question.

Given that the OP refuses to answer simple questions, we can only assume. My assumption is that he is already using this device to generate power for free. I assume the the red and blue thingy is a rotor... perhaps squirrel cage. If that is the case, then we have a motor! Imagine what great things could happen if we connected the shaft of this motor to a generator. A big generator could create a lot of electrical power. Almost certainly, far more power that required to create the rotating field. That's just common sense.

This ingenious invention could then take it's place in history alongside the Dennis Lee Hummingbird/Sundance motor-generator, which has been repressed by various operatives and governmental entities working against free people. It works by well-established principles, and the basic operation is desciribed here:

• What powers the generator?
• The Sundance generator is powered by the Hummingbird Motor which is powered by batteries and permanent magnets. The magnets in the motor/generator produces far more power than the energy coming from the batteries. Some of the extra power that is produced by the generator will be used to keep the batteries charged at all times. The unit will be completely self-contained and will require no outside power source.

This seems so obvious that I am sure you are thinking "Why didn't I think of that!!!???" Be thankful that you did not: Dennis Lee has been sued for fraud by the entities WHO ARE AGAINST HIS INVENTION getting out to the public. Imagine this happening to a man of the cloth -- he has his own church, after all!

The astute observer will say: But wait! If the OP device works like a motor, then wouldn't the rotor turning cause electricity to be generated in the stator coils? Certain individuals know the secret of "back EMF". Then, no external "generator" is required!! The back EMF is taken out to be used to power things.

I wonder if this makes more sense if I capitalize it: THEN, NO EXTERNAL GENERATOR IS REQUIRED! This secret, (which I am trusting you to keep secret until I've filed the patent papers) could free us from the tyranny of having to use fuel to generate power!

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#65

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/17/2012 12:16 PM

Think you're onto something. Short the output of the static rotor (the thing in the middle) so that its circulating current will produce a field lagging behind the driving field - the rotating flux lines will cause current to try to flow in the open-circuit stator coils. They can then be connected (via a cunning arrangement of diodes) to the energized stator coils. Eureka! The static rotor will try to rotate, and power may be drawn off my converting the torque to voltage with a bunch of piezo transducer.

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#68

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/17/2012 2:41 PM

Eureka!

Consider me sworn to secrecy.

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#69

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/17/2012 3:34 PM

Mum's the word :-)

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#70

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/17/2012 5:36 PM

That's funny!

I went to Dennis Lees symposium on free energy back in 2001 when it went through Bismarck ND. I volunteered to read the actual meters he was using to run his generator at 30 KW off of a common 20 Hp (about 15 KW) electric motor.

Sure enough the generator did put out around 30 KWs! However the three phase motor could easily be seen and heard to be running at well below its rated speed and growling furiously.

The demo lasted for all of two minutes and in that two minutes that electric motor went from room temp to noticeably hot! BTW the place that this show was held had three phase power within 30 feet of where the motor was and was clearly labeled as being a 240 volt 50 amp 3 Ph service (36 KW capable) which is more than double what a 20 HP motor needs to run. They however ran it off of a 50 or 60 KW genset outback which I and a number of others could plainly hear pull down hard when he turned on the load bank for his generator!

He also had a number of other free energy devices that could also easily provable to be scams by anyone with basic knowledge of how they were built and modified.

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#71

### Re: U. S. Patent #9,856,971 Assigned to LynDoor Ind.

08/17/2012 6:15 PM

Dennis Lee is the Chief Research Officer, and Technical Advisor to the principals of LynDoor™Industries.

LynDoor™Industries Intellictual Properties Division now owns the rights to all of Mr. Lee's patents and Trademarks. Hummingbird; Sundance; Squirrel; Rabbit; Deer; Eagle; Hawk, and many other names as we think of them are some of the better known names in the Trademark portfolio.

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#74

### Re: U. S. Patent #9,856,971 Assigned to LynDoor Ind.

08/18/2012 12:48 PM

That is a huge coup for LynDoor!! You will soon will have cornered the entire worldwide market for energy!

Please tell me that you did not hire him right after reading my secret message to PWSLack. I'd feel like such a fool for delaying my own offer to Mr Lee. I'd hazard a guess that owning the rights to all energy produced worldwide could provide a good retirement income, if supplemented with Social Security checks. My preliminary calculations suggest that the worldwide energy market is as much as \$400,000 per year! 10% royalty on that would be what... about \$100,000 dollars! Holy cow, that's even more than I thought!

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#75

### Re: U. S. Patent #9,856,971 Assigned to LynDoor Ind.

08/18/2012 1:11 PM

Yes, well.........You make up with enthusiasm what you lack in math skills, and that will take you far, just as it has Lee. Don't let reality get in the way of progress.

Mr. Lee was retired last night after the legal team had confirmed that the IP transfer was complete and irrevocable.

Mr. Lee is probably now again looking for work. We have no non-compete clause with him, so you are now free to now reap the benefits of his immeasurable talents.

We expect to gross upwards of \$3.00USD this next decade, with our enhanced marketing plans for the non-moving generating of power.

The IPO is forthcoming. You'll get preferred buyers credentials soon.

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#91

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/19/2012 2:26 PM

It is true what you say. There is an entity of legal and financial force that will either sue or buy your idea out. A very close friend invented a power source and was virtually drag thru-the legal system for every possible thing they could invent to wear him down until they bought his pattern and all plans and he had to swear to never say anything about it again. True story and I wouldn't be surprised that the oil companies and electric co. are of course the hidden hand in the deals. But I do think it is a great idea.

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#93

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/19/2012 2:32 PM

Well,

Lets hear it. You didn't sign anything, did you. Power source implies something that makes power. What is the energy input vs to the power output? Please tell us it isn't over 100%.

I hope that you realize that having a patent granted does not insure that the idea is even remotely feasible.

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#99

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/19/2012 6:06 PM

"A very close friend invented a power source and was virtually drag thru-the legal system for every possible thing they could invent to wear him down until they bought his pattern and all plans and he had to swear to never say anything about it again."

If it involved the "legal system" then there are public records. Show me a court case number, or link to any of the legal filings. And, don't try claiming that "all the records are sealed".

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#100

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/19/2012 6:45 PM

Yep. GA.

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#101

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/19/2012 11:31 PM

One of my personal favorites as an argument toward anyone who claims that they have built an over unity power generator is simple.

If I created an over unity power generator then I am also likely intelligent enough to understand why it would be best to put it directly to good use in my personal life as a solid time and money saver/maker without drawing any attention to myself.

That is if I created such a device that really worked I would set it up as the the power system for my vehicles, the heat and electrical power source for my home plus operate it as a micro co gen power station disguised as a well understood system such as a wind generator, micro hydro electric, or even as a propane/CNG or used oil burning alternative fuel based system and shut the hell up and collect my free money! Heck I might even pick up an inconspicuous low skill low workload low stress remedial labor job as extra cover for myself to further the disguise.

The thing is if I am no longer paying for fuel for my vehicles, heat and electricity for my home and providing a stable dependable income to myself what logical sense would it be to then ruin that and create a load of time and money wasting work chasing after fame and notoriety?

But just maybe after I got rich from that then yes some day I would then plaster its design and blueprints all over the web in formats and full explanations of how and why it works including descriptions of all the parts and materials used in away that anyone with a basic engineering and fabrication skills could understand.

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#102

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/20/2012 2:23 AM

It is true what you say.

Which part? Almost the whole post was tongue-in-cheek.

While it is true that Dennis Lee was sued for investor fraud, (and also sued by the FTC), my suggestion that his ideas actually worked as advertised is not warranted by facts. No one is out to steal his ideas or to prevent them from coming to market, other than ordinary law enforcement officers doing their jobs in very ordinary ways.

Regarding the rest, you'd have to explain what part you found "true."

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#103

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/20/2012 2:37 AM

Maybe he was drugged through the oral/nasal/dermal/rectal system?

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#104

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/20/2012 4:23 AM

In the link, as soon as you read "......is designed to produce 30 kilowatts (kW) of electricity per hour" and "...... will give you 26,000 kW of electricity per year" you know they don't know what they're talking about.

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#115

### Re: PLEASE KEEP THIS SECRET!

08/20/2012 2:04 PM

Yes. I often wonder haw many of these folks do this kind of thing deliberately. (I think Dennis Lee is actually fairly bright, and certainly knows what he is up to.)

On You Tube, it is incredibly simple to start up a motor and look at the volt x amps input as it drives an unloaded generator. Then you show a load being connected to the attached generator. Then you show the output of the generator (without, of course showing the increase in load on the motor). Voila! Twice the volt x amp output of the originally shown input.

Some people start to believe this stuff, I guess. (Hey... I saw it with my very own eyes!)

What a world.

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#80

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/18/2012 11:31 PM

You're effectively making AC by switching the DC around in a circle, but you're not making more energy.

Don't believe any of these replies, then, but why even bother asking the question if you're already so confident it'll work? You've rejected every single reply so far - many from seasoned engineers with many years of experience - and if recent history is any guide, I'm sure you'll reject this reply, too.

Why did you come here at all? Just to dispute everything that's been said? If so, you're wasting your time and ours.

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#60

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 3:16 AM

Apparently you are not that familiar with the term 'Ampere Turns' which is basically one turn of wire carrying one amp equals one ampere turn.

It also means that 10,000 turns of fine wire carrying one amp each equals 10,000 ampere turns or 1 turn carrying 10,000 amps is still also 10,000 Ampere turns again.

No free lunch on magnetic field strengths just for changing the number of turns or size of the wire.

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#96

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 3:41 PM

Yes, but try finding 10,000 turns of room-temp superconducting fine wire! I think they're holding out on us.

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#26

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 4:56 PM

Creation of a rotating field from DC is done routinely in "inverter drives", which are the devices that enable AC induction motors to run at variable speeds*. Obtaining one of these (from surplus, for example) will give you a better, more efficient rotating field than you can simulate with numerous high speed switches. Some of these inverter drives are about 95% to 97% efficient -- in other words nearly perfect. 101% is impossible for reasons that should be clear to you**. For a stator, you could use the frame and coils from an existing induction motor.

It appears that studying electric motors, transformers, and inverters would help you understand why your device would not work as you have described. (It will not output more power than is input -- an obvious impossibility.) A web search will net you descriptions of many devices like yours, none of which have been demonstrated to work as the inventor hoped. Here is an example of a device which does not work as described. There are hundreds of others.

You do not clearly state how power gets out of this device, but I assume there is a set of perhaps three coils in a delta or star configuration, so that you could get standard AC three phase power out. If your crude multi-switch inverter worked correctly, you would already have three phase power, without the need for the extra transformer step.

As someone else pointed out, in the very old days there were rotoverters that took in DC and output AC. The modern replacement is an inverter. Your device takes a step back in time.

Suppose you want to run a three phase motor from DC. Here is how it is done. DC source > inverter > AC motor. Your device serves the purpose of the inverter, but less efficiently and with more complexity and cost.

Where were you thinking that the extra power would come from? The "vacuum"? Magnetism? Gravity?

A good exercise might be to write up, in step-by-step detail, how you believe this device would work. Start with 1000 watts as an input power. Describe the losses at each stage (resistance heating, iron losses, etc.) Find the output power. What has your device accomplished?

* Most industrial inverter drives use AC as an input source, but convert the AC to DC internally, so that a sin wave AC output can be synthesized. The inverter drives in AC motor electric vehicles do not have the rectification step, because DC is already present at the battery.

** If this is not clear, then the subjects you should study are physics and thermodynamics.

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#27

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 11:34 PM

That is a very enlightening answer for a change. Just one thought and I appologize if it fringes on off topic, over "u-word" etc - for a first post none the less...but in relation to this model and others - what would come of harnessing the output and putting it back into the input or even just a percentage of it? Is it possible to replicate a runaway phenomenon like feedback in an amplified system / PA? If so, couldn't this help minimize losses or combat loss? I understand that energy would be required to start a process like spinning a rotor or switching in the above example etc - but once started could the energy produced be fed back in some way to augment the total output? Not all of us have degrees in the above mentioned fields but do have interest.

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#28

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/15/2012 11:43 PM

In a perfect system, you can get as much energy out as you put in. No more.

Feedback takes energy, lots of it. It's made by the amp. You don't make all that sound with feedback, you make it with power.

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#29

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 1:30 AM

You are talking about feedback. Lots of people don't understand feedback, so I will attempt to explain. Any current diverted from the output back into the input will reduce the output, but such losses are useful in some cases. It would result in a circular movement of current which will eventually dissipate through heat. The positive feedback you noted in the case of a loudspeaker is amplified (made stronger) by bringing external power into that circular system by means of an amplifier. Without that amplifier, no external power would get into the system, and the positive feedback will dampen out very quickly. The machine would run down.

The key to understanding dangerous feedback like the speaker system is the part where you brought in extra power into the system. A generator is a power creating device driven by a rotating shaft. You get the external power from the shaft.

A runaway condition could occur anytime there is external power applied to a system. For instance, if you imagine a generator being driven by a very powerful moving shaft. The generator will produce current which will attempt to slow down that shaft IF you sent the current off to do a job, like, say, illuminate a bank of lights. If you simply excited the magnetic fields with moving permanent magnets, there is an upper limit of how much power can be produced. If you supplemented the permanent magnets with some extra current, of course you could get more power being delivered, and the shaft will have to provide more brake horsepower to drive that generator.

By varying the amount of exciter current, you will affect the output power of your generator. And of course, you could get some of that current from the output. More power sent out to the load bank would act as a powerful brake on the drive shaft. If you were to feed ALL the output into the exciter field, the power being created would rise quite quickly to unstainable levels. At best, the shaft would slow down due to the sudden load placed upon it. At worst, the insulation would break down due to high voltages being generated, and everything would short out and maybe even melt down. (saw it happen once!)

That would be the "runaway" situation you were considering. And it would happen as long as there was external power in the form of rotational energy brought into the system by the rotating shaft. One could totally imagine it happening in just such a way, so your question is totally spot on.

And in fact, there are such things as electrical brakes which work exactly that way. They short out the output, which slows down the shaft. As the shaft slows down, there is less energy being created because the generator mounted on that shaft is slowing down.

In the case of an artificial rotating field which was the original topic... There is no reason why you could not have a rotating magnetic field created by the stator of a rotating electrical device. Switching is a good method. If there is nothing inside the stators, the field will rotate, and the only losses would be from copper and iron hysteresis losses, plus any heat being given off. If you placed a permanent magnet in the middle of the rotating magnetic field, you would get horsepower being delivered. If you had coils in the rotor, you get some great angular momentum being created. If you shorted out the rotor coils, you would get as much torque as the interacting magnetic fields could create, the only limitations being how much energy you have available to apply to the stator coils.

If you stopped the rotor in its tracks, and tapped off the energy being induced in the rotor, you would have a fairly straightforward but lossy transformer. If you take some of the energy coming out of that rotor, and fed it back into the stator, the whole system would simply run out of energy within a couple of cycles. It would still need lots of external energy being brought into the system to allow it to continue to operate. You would never get a "runaway" situation because the voltages and currents are always getting less as they transform from stator magnetic fields to rotor electrical current, then this current is changed to rotor magnetic fields which in turn induce current into the stator, and so on. This won't last long.

If you can get positive feedback with external power involved then things get interesting. You could then get a runaway situation. Very easily. But you HAVE to bring in power from outside the system to not only replace losses, but to increase the amplitude of the "voltage swings".

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#31

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 7:21 AM

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#34

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 8:54 AM

you are very near to my point...

<If you stopped the rotor in its tracks, and tapped off the energy being induced in the rotor, you would have a fairly straightforward but lossy transformer>

the artificial magnetic field created by switching is done using wires whose gauge is very small when compared to rotor coil wires... hence the artificial rotation seems to be more linear rather than being step wise... it produces the same effect as the rotating magnetic field using prime mover... it is in analogy with conventional generators producing power isnt it??? then it should also produce same power giving positive feedback??

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#36

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 9:38 AM

Even with that it still isn't going to produce more power than it consumes.

If the universe worked that way, then it would immediately explode and cease to exist.

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#39

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 9:53 AM

have you worked on it? you strongly believe on all theories and right from beginning you are just trying to say over-unity machines are not possible... did you give any explanation on why my design wont work im just asking that... i know thermodynamics and other stuffs please give the answer what i want if you know if you want further details ask me ill let you know... im not ready for arguments... k?? thank you

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#40

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 10:01 AM

Okay. Yes, it will work just fine. Keep after it, keep going, don't give up. The elusive overunity device will have been delivered to the world. You are about to become wealthy beyond your wildest dreams.

How's that?

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#42

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 10:16 AM

if you have no practical reason to say that it wont work that would be your answer i know.... thank you anyways...

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#43

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 10:17 AM

Well, it seems that you, and I (#1) are the only two here who are forward thinking enough to see the absolute value of this revolutionary concept.

The fact that it defies all the well established laws of physics presently known to man should not deter revolutionary ideas such as this from coming to reality.

I'm sure OP feels like one of our favorite heros of the Second World War, Oddball, who uttered that historical phrase that inspired his men to defy all odds and become true heros of that war.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? "

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#44

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 10:25 AM

I would surely drop this idea the next moment when anyone gives me a reason that would satisfy me saying why it wont work... if no one could do that then i should take risk in building it...

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#45

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 10:38 AM

I don't believe that anything said here will ever convince you that your idea is not practical. You are convinced that you have discovered the holy grail of power generation.

Well, don't let reason, logic, nor the laws of physics stand in your way. Go out and make it so.

Good luck to you in your quest for immortality.

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#48

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 11:30 AM

I gather you have not read any of the replies in this thread. The reason your device does not produce more power than it consumes is because nothing does. (See laws of thermodynamics.) For non-scientific, non-engineering support for your idea see beliefnet.com or peswiki.com.

I strongly recommend that you build your device. It will be a good learning experience.

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#59

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 2:32 AM

We need more sincerity...
If you can fake sincerity you've got it made.
Del

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#49

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 11:34 AM

What, and risk the universe ceasing to exist? Not bloody likely!

Over-unity machines are not possible. There. Done it. So what?

<...any explanation on why...wont work...>

Yep. So what?

How tiresome. There has been no adequate response to any question in this thread so far... <sigh>

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#50

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 11:42 AM

Don't confuse him with the facts.

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#51

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 11:45 AM

Why not? This thread is fun in a perverse sort of way.

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#62

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 6:50 AM

OK. How about posting electrical schematic drawings, mechanical general arrangement drawings and an indication of the quantities required? Someone will quote to build it, for sure.

It is a little uncertain what the appropriate terms of payment would be at this stage.

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#87

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 1:35 PM

"have you worked on it?"

Have you?

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#38

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 9:46 AM

First of all, let us simplify the concept:

1- In a generator, the field is DC supplied and mechanically rotated to induce the required currents in the stationary phase coils. The Mechanical power is thus converted to electrical power with a minimal loss. The efficiency is in the 80 to 90%. We can say that a Normal Alternator generator is a Power converter, the source of the power being Mechanical.

2- In your proposed design, it is true that the switches will make the field rotate round an armature and that it will generate a current flow. But the flow will depend on the load (electrical load) that you will put on the output circuit. Therefore, the switched current on the coils (fileds) will have to be proportional to the current drawn by the load: Transformer behaviour here. Therefore, you cannot control the current in the coils in a fixed manner. you must have a program that keeps changing the current to meet the demand from the load. THAT IS WHY SOME OF THE REPLIES CALLED IT A TRANSFORMER!

3- Now that the situation has been clarified a little, You can see that instead of a power converter, you are really having a Power transformer. This is not a generator! A transformer does not create power but rather pumps its pressure (if an analogy is permitted) up or down (that is the voltage) to suit the load and the load dictates the power being transferred. Also, youwill have losses with efficiencies from 80 to 90%... No Power is created here! Only transforming...

That is Why it does not work the way you desired.

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#41

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 10:11 AM

i have mentioned there is a circular motion of field then how can it be a transforming action? as you say the current cant be controlled still a regulated voltage can be applied... or with constant current it can be used to charge a battery after rectifying it... transformer is a static device... but here the field is made to rotate artificially... although rotating magnetic fields already exists this device works more linearly hence works as a generator...

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#46

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 11:24 AM

Barath. Wake up. Switch to decaf.

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#47

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 11:24 AM

transformer is a static device... but here the field is made to rotate artificially

This is one source of your confusion, apparently. The magnetic field in a three phase transformer rotates. The magnetic field in a single phase transformer moves. The need for a moving field is why DC is not directly transformable. The rotor in an induction motor moves because it follows the rotating field associate with the stationary stator.

So far what you have drawn and described is an inefficient inverter. Given development, it could operate at perhaps 90% efficiency. Until you provide standard symbols and a logical description based on science, we cannot offer help.

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#52

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 12:21 PM

Im sorry that i couldnt make you people to understand my concept... i have managed to edit 2 pics n im uploading it... please look at this the bigger circle is nothing but the stator coil... instead of field cutting the coil i have visualised as coil cutting the field...

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#53

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 12:49 PM

now how will the induced emf be?? try to understand the concept from the op image and this one...

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#54

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 1:42 PM

After all the contributions you had from this forum, and after the simple explanation I gave you, you are still going round the pot with your reasoning. This means that you have not grasped the real principles of electromagnetism and the concept of a rotating field in the electrical machines domain.

We, very well understood your "Circular motion of field" (since we deal with it every day...).

The point to understand is not just the rotating field BUT the fact that the field has to vary in value within a coil to be able to induce a voltage and a current. Rotating the field, whether physically or electrically (?OK?), is just a way to vary it, in a way, without having to switch it (inefficient).

The Point I was making in the first response, is that in a transformer, the field has to vary (AC current/volts) in order to induce voltage and current in the 2nd winding. You can say that the field is rotating in the same way as you are trying to do. After all a Sinusoid curve is produced from the projection of a point rotating on a circle!!! See? Rotation, Sinusoid, AC current ... same thing after all. {What is your background or profession? You need help in this FIELD}

The power injected in the Excitation field of a generator is not being amplified by its merry rotaion! It is helping (!?) to convert the mechanical power into electrical power. The inefficiency is due maily in the Generation of the mechanical POWER that rotates the field. BUT you still need the mechanical power to convert! In your design, you have no power to convert! A transformer transfers what it gets in the primary to the secondary, with some losses since there is a spending due to the transformation from one pressure (voltage) to another ...

If after all these trials to explain why WE THINK you are chasing your tail (perpetual motion, Over unity...), then please go ahead and reinvent the Utopia of Over unity and prove the world is Upside down.

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#55

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 1:59 PM

< The Point I was making in the first response, is that in a transformer, the field has to vary (AC current/volts) in order to induce voltage and current in the 2nd winding. You can say that the field is rotating in the same way as you are trying to do. After all a Sinusoid curve is produced from the projection of a point rotating on a circle!!! See? Rotation, Sinusoid, AC current ... same thing after all >

THANKS A TON I GOT IT!!

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#56

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 2:29 PM

Much Obliged! a few kg would do!

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#58

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 8:30 PM

I dunno, is he trying to create an over unity device, or was he just having trouble visualizing the sine wave created by a rotating electrical field?

I think he is smarter than many folks on this forum give him credit for, and knows you dont get something for nothing. I don't think he was the one who mentioned the over unity thing. I think we are seeing a communication issue....

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#66

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 12:32 PM

Your rotating field is a way to turn DC into AC. A good way I think. However when you get a coil containing AC (whether sort of artificial like your set up, or any other way) it really wants to induce current in any other coil it is close to. If you have a coil of wire in the rotor, it will induce a current into the stator.

Would this be a good way to turn a DC into an AC current? Sure. But we don't call such devices "generators", we call such devices "inverters". It is fairly easy to purchase a unit which is nothing more than a DC motor driving an AC generator. That combination of rotating electrical machinery is properly called an "inverter".

Rotary transformers are perfectly common as well. Sometimes called "brushless DC motors", their designs are pretty much as you describe. It is not a new idea, in fact this wikipedia entry shows that they have been in use for a long time. So no, you have not invented anything new here.

So what is your question? The field of electricity is full of different words which describe the same things. So... It looks to ME like your only real problem is what to call this gizmo you are describing. You already have a good handle on how it works. And I don't think you ever suggested that you can get more energy out of this gizmo than you put into it. Other people suggested that.

If you can clearly annunciate any futher questions, I will be happy to attempt to answer them.

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#67

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 12:57 PM

And I don't think you ever suggested that you can get more energy out of this gizmo than you put into it.

You may have missed these suggestions:

i guess the power induced will be greater than the power given to it even if not it ll be usefull for converting hvdc lines to ac lines...

i know if this works then the entire science would change but still there is a possibility... every one says its not possible but i want to know why it is not...

if this device is going to work that then there is some new form of source for energy that is what i want.

if at all it doesnt produce power greater than unity it ll at least convert dc to ac...

Certainly, no one here has said "its not possible" to use this device to convert DC to AC. What people have said is not possible is over-unity production of power. The OP seems to have enough exposure to electricity to know that inverters are available. I cannot imagine that he has not at least searched for "convert DC to AC" on the web. It seems, clearly to most of us, that he is trying to do more than that.

But you could be right. Maybe he has no knowledge of electricity at all.

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#76

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/18/2012 2:24 PM

I think the OP has no blessed idea of the difference between voltage, current, power, ampere turns, emf, rms, air gap, back emf, hysteresis and copper losses. Like many people outside the field, he confuses current with power, or energy with voltage. When these concepts are not totally clear, you get questions like "well, when I fed a hundred volts into a step up transformer, I get a thousand volts. Doesn't that mean there is more power on the output side of the transformer? The answer is of course NO, but it can be very seductive to play with numbers that way. My students often fell into that trap.

His statement that "power induced would be greater" is telling...he clearly has no freakin' idea that power doesn't get induced...only emf can be induced. Emf would need to drive current into a load to find out if it has more or less power than was applied. With the correct math in his hands, he would quickly discover that no matter what the voltage rose to, the power would never be greater. You or I could explain this much more easily with a couple of equations, but he wanted it in plain language. Most people I think would rather just call him names. His second and third statements were mostly in responce to people's name calling, and were IMHO more polite than the were deserved.

Of course all that stuff about rotating magnetic fields and changing DC into AC are of course just obfuscations. A dead end which an inquiring mind has found itself in. Rather than insulting him or his intelligence, I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he has followed a seductive path like so many others have followed in the past.

My feeling is that a first year course in electrical theory would pay dividends. And I fully agree with your suggestion that he must actually build his device. I hope he does not waste too many years tinkering with it trying to get it to what he wants it to do. But once it is built, he can take measurements, and study on discovering where his knowledge deficite is.

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#109

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/20/2012 11:19 AM

Why can you not have a transforming action in a rotating magnetic field? Why do YOU believe you cannot transform voltages with a rotating magnetic field. What do you THINK happens in a brushless generator?

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#112

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/20/2012 12:34 PM

i agree!! no work is done to generate power hence it is being transformed! it acts as a transformer... I already know rotating field transforms voltage... but i was thinking too much apart from these... something like linear rotation of field etc... which totally confused me! im clear now! Thank you all

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#57

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/16/2012 4:58 PM

To cut to the chase... energy can not be created. Energy can only be transformed from one form to another form or used to perform work, which is in itself a conversion.

Any energy output from any device must equal the energy input into the system minus the loses inherent in the system.

There is no free lunch and no way around these simple truths.

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#63

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 8:10 AM

Barath,

You want to rotate the fields in the coils. You need power to do this. To run any current through any coil, you need power.

When you use power to rotate the fields in these coils, over time you will have used energy.

Looking at the armature, you may get some power out. BUT, along the way you have lost power in the coils (the ones you are rotating the field in) and you have lost power in the ferrous core that your coils are wrapped around and through which your magnetic field is directed. You have also lost power in the gap between your coils and your armature. Lastly, you will lose even more power in the coil on the armature.

So if you put power in, but you lose some of it at each step, you will not get as much power out as you put in.

Where does this power go? Most of it comes out as heat. Your coils will heat up and your ferrous core will heat up. Some of it radiates outward as electromagnetic radiation (radio waves).

When you take the power out of this contraption, over time you will get energy out, but you will never get any more energy out than energy that you have put in.

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#72

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/17/2012 8:37 PM

Theoretically, it may work but practically it has remote chances due to breaking of current in coil as well as maintaining of time in switching.

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#73

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/18/2012 8:53 AM

Not Even theoretically!

{unless you can invoke some Quantum Theory twist that will provide the power being consumed... from the void..?}

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#81

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 2:36 AM

I have thought of this for years ever since Mazda started to sell a rotary engine which was amazing that it was the 1st engine that put out more horse power than it had Cu-in.

Which gave me the idea however I've never had the time to actually build & bench test anything whereas life keeps getting in the way.

I would be happy to hear any discussion on this subject.

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#82

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 10:05 AM

So, your idea is to build an internal combustion engine that doesn't rotate, but produces power??????

Or, is your thinking that since an ICE can produce over 1HP per cubic inch(a common enough output) that you can produce an electric motor that produces more power than it consumes?

If I were you, I'd be glad that "life keeps getting in the way".

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#83

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 1:05 PM

im not a layman... i was totally puzzled that is the reason i posted this here! my idea was that if rotating a exited coil would produce power then why cant we make the same thing electrically... but the thing was the diameter of wire is small cu loss increases drastically and hence we need separate cooling system.... more over though i rotate it as i have described it has some time delay as it is being switch and the rotation can never be continuous... i.e., it wont do any work (moving the like poles away as in conventional generator)... hence no energy is produced... this answer is quite simple which i got it from my neighbourhood scientist... not even a single person came up with this answer in forum... u people are thinking within a box thermodynamics blablabla even i know that and you are just ready to make fun of my post and my mistakes

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#84

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 1:11 PM

Since when was continuous rotation a prerequisite for doing work?

Feckit - I give up.

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#85

### Re: Rotating Magnetic Field Electrically

08/19/2012 1:29 PM

You replied to me, specifically, when I was replying to 1BFSSBN.

You and he might have a lot in common, including your insistence that you can alter the laws of physics.

Finally, all of the responders here have given you the benefit of the doubt, until you proved that you were incapable of understanding the basics of electricity, thermodynamics and physics in general.

The responders here are some of the finest minds on this forum. ( I do not include myself in that group)

You would do well to listen to what they are telling you.

Please continue to pursue this revolutionary concept, and please come back and show us the results.

Good Luck.

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