Domestic Fire Escape System - What's Best?

A portable fire escape ladder is the cheapest way to go....↓

http://www.rewci.com/fiesla.html

5 stories is up there.

Have you considered a pole?

Cotton gloves and a good grip is all it takes from there. It can be inside or outside.

Five stories is too much, they have to use several with offsets at intermediate floors. We used to put them in some oil refinery structures in the fifties, but I thought they were banned now.

They might well be banned; I was talking common sense, not government imposed rules.

We are all entering an era where we must rely on our wits to stay alive; the government will be of no use.

Oh wait! The government is already of no use. Ignore them.

The latest round of union negotiations have precluded free advice.

Anyone that doesn't want to burn to death can take a number and call the "I'm Burning", government hotline.

Your calls are important, and will be answered in the order that they are received...................current wait time is 12 to 18 minutes.

If that seems like it's too long to wait, while you're on fire, you can blame the sequester. With more money, we can make it right.

If just one child is saved, it will be worth another trillion dollars.

A spiral slide would be fun, but it might take up too much room.

And just have it drop you off at the pool.

That's how you get the kids excited about fire drills!

No room for this?

Dear Mr.evanmjones,

LIFE IS PRECIOUS. Fire accident may be small or big or catostrophic event.

Prevention is BETTER than CURE. Consulting the Local Fire Safety Department, will be the best option.

DHAYANANDHAN.S

I agree. Local authorities is the place to start.

Agree with AH at port #5

One possible solution I've seen in a house I was looking at about 30 years ago was fire doors into the adjoining property (I'm assuming this house is terraced or semi-detached). Both neighbours benefit from a cheap fire escape, but, clearly have to trust each other not to use the door unless there's an emergency, or other mutual agreement.

I have to agree with PWStack on this one. What does the local Building code for your municipality dictate? What does the local Fire Marshall require?

Was even a Certificate of Occupancy issued for this apartment following an Inspection?

This Attic apartment is a DEATH TRAP without adequate Emergency Egress, such as a steel exterior fire escape that has been approved by the municipality having jurisdiction.

Hunkering down waiting for the Fire Brigade to arrive and save your silly ass will not work.....first, you'll be overcome with smoke. If smoke inhalation doesn't kill you first, then either the fire of collapsing structure most undoubtedly will..........

Just saying.

Anonymous Hero-

Excellent answer! Clear, easy to understand, covers the critical points and correct with no presumptions, You are to be commended.

If I could I would like to add a few small items.

Facts-

3) Stratification of the air will make the temperatures in excess of 100 F at the floor, approx. 300 F at 3 or 4 feet up and up to 800 F or more at the top of an 8' ceiling. It layers just like a layer cake.

9) Modern houses constructed of engineered lumber burn at least twice as fast, if not faster, as buildings constructed of 2 x 's. If you have one of these forget every thing else except the family. Get out even faster! It is unusual for a engineered lumber house to go longer than 5 minutes before it is completely involved.

Simple Precautions-

1) Also install Carbon Monoxide detectors. Check fire detectors and CO2 detectors at the same time at least twice a year.

3) Have escape drills often with the children. They learn an important part of the complete program easier at that age. Make it fun and a nice, but important, time with the parents.

3a) Instruct them and make sure they comply with never hiding in tubs, closets, under beds, in toy boxes, under blankets, etc. Also tell them and show them that Firefighters are their friends. A firefighter in full turnouts and SCBA looks scary to them. Call and then take them to a fire house where the personnel will demonstrate that they are their friends.

Lastly, if something goes wrong get out quicker, call 911 and explain the change in urgency. Fire fighters 1st goal is the safety of people. On behalf of me and many others, I am sure, thank you for the excellent reply. Want a job as a volunteer firefighter? We have a vacancy or if not possible, I will give a good reference for you.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Old Salt,

Well written!

It never fails to amaze me how that in our never ending goal to "git-er-done" yesterday and do it for the smallest cost possible, keeps producing substandard structures with increasing safety risk to people and equipment.

Elimination of fire blocking and fire breaks in buildings in combination with use of engineered lumber certainly has allowed faster, lower cost construction while increasing the profit margin but at the same time it has also created some of the worst fire safety conditions imaginable.

I keep hoping that those in control of creating, adopting, and enforcing the UBC rules will wake up and we either go back to the past proven building methods or we do it right and adopt new construction methods that mitigate the high safety risks rather than expect electrically operated devices and the fire department to provide protection.

Thank you very much Old Salt for the kind comments, on all accounts.

As for the job, well, I can't even handle second hand cigarette smoke without my lungs turning to fire. I doubt I could qualify for the physical.

However, I never turn down making cash contributions to our local FD as both the fire department and the EMS are first rate.

I did work with our local fire authority at their training facility. from memory the thermocouples used to register temperatures of upto 1400C - over 2000F. I could well be wrong but the temps you quote seem too low- remember the wood chars at quite a high temp.

Phil-

Current experiments on the temperatures of single family type # 5, (wood construction "stick materials, 2x's) structure fires estimate an internal ceiling temperature of about 1,200^oF. Even then, before reaching that temp there is usually a flashover of the contents and their vapors.

I am under the understanding, from published sources, that for a room and contents fire the expected temps are about 150^oF at the floor and 600^oF at the ceiling. For some of the readers out their it can not be emphasized enough that this is a "room and contents" fire. Structure fires get up to 1,200^oF or usually more, especially if built with engineered lumber. A relative comparison is that lung tissue begins to have irreversible damage at 125^oF and the ignition point of paper is 451^oF.

The temperature of a burn building at a fire academy depends upon the fuel that is used and other conditions. if the fuel is propane, as many are changing to, and large drafts are created for air quality reasons you can practically stand there in a long sleeve shirt (not recommended though). Add hay, pallets, discarded wood. plywood. particle board and the temperature can get much higher. Reduce drafting, close accesses, add fuel onto the coals, build the fire bigger, let it burn longer and hotter, etc. and temps could get up to 900-1.000^oF.

There has been several extremely good experiments on this subject by the NIST. some of them are

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire00/PDF/f00136.pdf

and the Underwriters Labs

http://www.ul.com/global/documents/newscience/whitepapers/firesafety/FS_Analysis%20of%20Changing%20Residential%20Fire%20Dynamics%20and%20Its%20Implications_10-12.pdf

Temperature from modern houses will be hotter due to the increased fire loading from synthetic materials (plastics, etc.) burning hotter than previous naturals materials (wool, cotton, wood, etc.)

Good Luck, Old Salt

To help save life in house fires:

1. Consult the experts. (fire brigade)

2. Ensure adequate and loud fire and smoke alarms, regularly tested as working.

3. Install a generous sprinkler system, certainly above all stairways.

4. Use fire check doors with seals. At least for 1 hour safety.

5. Ensure "What to do in case of Fire" notices are fixed, in all rooms

6. Provide clear illuminated EXIT signs with mains failure lighting on stairways.

7. Provide a marked (arrow/line) obvious and easy way to exit the building. etc.

8. Practice a fire "drill" make it fun, but get the important "escape" across to them.

When a fire occurs the occupants need every "break" they can get.
They could be sound asleep, possibly with drugs. They will be confused, or panic.
Smoke can be a real killer especially if unconscious. If not they should be advised to
keep their (fire) door closed until their exit route is clear because, letting in a rush of
air can be fatal in a burning building. Provide secondary means of escape e.g. rope ladders;
and fire blankets / small extinguishers, etc for persons trapped with only one exit and kitchens.
I do not know much about fires (no expert) but I did set my
grandmother's house on fire as a kid, so I have had a little practice.
Hope this helps.

jt.

I was born to be a pessimist.
Really? How's that?

My blood group is 'B negative'

The fire pole escape is perhaps the worst single piece of advice I have ever seen on this site. That opening between floors would conduct the fire all the way to the top just like a chimney. Your occupants would be instantly fried, if a fire occurred on a lower floor.

If you have no opportunity to install an external fire place, do not occupy that space.

Most states now subscribe to the International Building Codes, if your State does, your Insurance company does as well. Not building to this code, or making renovations that don't, and are not Permitted work, will not only void your Insurance, but make you criminally liable as well.

Bob Sullivan-

There are now fire pole systems that only have the opening between floors open for a few seconds. There are also ones that start to open when your feet push on it and close when your body has passed through it.

I agree, no non-trained civilian should never attempt to use a fire pole, especially in a fire situation. They don't know how to use it properly. They are not toys. Many firefighters trained on the proper use and use them correctly still get hurt occasionally. If the fire was above them and they were trained it would be an acceptable escape method. As you state, if it is below then instant problems and big ones!

An X-fire chief

Good Luck, Old Salt

Simple as this:

They are made custom length from 2 - 80 meters long!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eohpyx8NzMg

Please notice I said something like, "if an external fire escape cannot be provided". The word "external" being the key to the rest of the sentence. An internal raceway would still be off the board, it would still be a chimney.

Provided this external device is approved by the locality in which it is installed, and signed off on its use, I see no reason something like this wouldn't fulfill the obligation to provide escape.

I am/was a former Fire, Building, Zoning Codes Enforcement officer, Certified in NYS in the International Building and Fire Codes. The Code references NFPA and other building codes as a comprehensive unit, when doing a plan review. Now retired for 10 years I am a bit rusty and am not up to date with the new revisions to them.

A raceway type of internal escape without fire breaks/blocking is a scary design proposition. Upon opening this seems as though it would create an immediate vent from a burning level. The fire rating would be defeated, and the entire building wholly involved in seconds.

Bob Sullivan-

My mention of a fire pole for escape in post #22 was only a concept consideration, not an endorsement for the use of one of the current designs. It might be possible in the future if developed correctly with all factors considered (heat, thermal layering, insulation, length, construction of building, etc.) Personally, if there was a fire below me I would probably try the stairs down (with all due cautions) or a window and wait for the aerial or a ground ladder to be put up. If there was a roof stairway and a roof scuttle on a type 1, 2 or 3 building, I may try for the roof and then the aerial. If none of these were available options I would do whatever seemed the best tactic at the time. Prayer being one of the first ones.

Several years ago, there was some experimentation with an escape system using a readily deployable inclined rope that a carabineer could be quickly attached to and a quick entry harness. The person would clip onto the wire and glide down the wire. I think I saw mention of it in either Firehouse or Fire Engineering magazine soon after the experiments. I may be mistaken but I think FDNY tested it at Governor's Island for a few days.

Having done some nozzle, search and officer work in the past there is definitely a need to either develop a safer escape system for civilians or put efforts in something else more promising. Some of the mass terrorism incidents in the past 20 years are clear indications for the need.

Glad to hear you are retired. I am too and I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am!

Good Luck, Old Salt

If this is for an infant, the escape has to be some thing they, or a frantic mother, can manage. As a child, on the third floor, I had device which consisted of a canvas sling, a sort of breeches buoy thingy, attached to a cable with a reel that had some sort of brake to limit the speed and was attached at the window. Even as a three year old, I was confident I could climb in, open the window, and jump, though I never did so. Later, as a parent, I provided my daughter with a metal "rope" ladder, with chains. It only had to reach about 15 feet down from the window sill. 50 feet would be more of a challenge, but even a child should be able to manage it. 1870, built in Wales, it has to be brick or stone, so it's not likely to be consumed in minutes, and if the door is "fire proof", there should be time to deploy a ladder.

Zipline Adventures has the solution for you!

Inflatable rescue cushion.....You can let the neighborhood kids jump off the roof on weekends to pay for the whole project....

No inflating needed!

I admit my entry (#15) was not A "last resort" but this is because there is no magic wand to pluck them from the 5th floor to safety and therefore it follows the best you can do is delay the fire, using sprinklers and fire check doors, as much as possible.

I truly feel the emphasis should be on prevention, and not escape. Then likely it will never happen, and if it does, the delay you have built-in will enable the fire service to arrive.

Yes, I could suggest a "sling" or boson's chair using a rope to the nearest lamp post or telegraph pole etc.. or an inflatable "cushion" to jump on, but panic measures can have fatal consequences, and good prevention measures (to my mind) are a lot more likely to succeed, and less likely to be needed!

Hope this helps. jt.

What do you call a Chinese man in a crowd?

Ming Aling

ps... If the moderator is watching... I find CR4 pretty useless now programming wise.

uploading rarely works with error message such as:

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if this help? jt

Actually, step # 1 is:

Make sure everything in the building is up to code!

Prevention is the next thing.

The point that seems to be lost on almost everyone is, building living/sleeping quarters on the fifth floor of this sort of building is unwise. In some jurisdictions wood frame buildings exceeding 3 floors is not Permittable.

True fire prevention is always wise, but very few fires are intentional, ones with mortalities even less so. Either provide an approved external fire escape, or use a lower floors for sleeping, and use the upper ones used as leisure space. Sprinkler systems are always a great idea, just don't use them as a mental false sense of security.

In ships, fire is of the greatest concern. They deal with it by mandating at least two entrances to any space that is manned. If your attic space is located over two or more rooms below, you could provide a trap door and a portable ladder opening into a room that also has two means of escape. Not knowing the actual layout of your house, this is all I can advise.

Trampoline...