The Easiest Way to Push a Trolley

Metal on metal, with as large a wheel diameter as feasible, and rolling-element bearings.

In reality, ordinary man can push one ton car on normal road, I don't know the case for metal to metal compared with car. How much easier? Is it related to coefficient of friction?

With sumo wrestlers.

Anything is possible. I have seen guys pulling a truck.

How much is a "short distance" for you?

6 - 7 Tonnes?

...better put some brakes on it.

Think "hovercraft". A rail vehicle will just about roll on a 1 in 240 gradient, so 7 tons/240 = 29kgf just to overcome friction on the flat. If there's a gradient then your humans will be stuffed by the load.

What's the difference between

1. Metal tyres and rail.

and

2. Metal tyres with wheel and rail.

?

(And don't say "with wheel"). If there are no wheels, what are the tyres on? Or do you just mean metal sliding on metal, as in skids?

I type something wrong, it should be:

1. Seperated metal tyres and rail.

2. Metal tyres with axis and rail.

Which one is better?

Sorry, but I can't make sense of either of those.

Maybe it means pairs of wheels joined by a solid axle e.g a bogie vs individual wheels?

Idunno

Del

Maybe, indeed.

I like Hillman rollers for this type of work.

Is there any elevation change? Getting this to start moving when desired is one thing. Getting them to stop safely and not move when needed is another. Include a brake in the design.

http://www.safaleotcrane.com/transfer-trolley.html

If the load was only going one way and then the empty cart pushed back to be loaded, then I might have a very slight declining slope from the loading area to the unloading position....with a safety cushioned stop....and locking hand braking lever....

...and no-one in the way! :-o

... Dead-mans handle type brake, i.e. only released when someone is actually behind the trolley, pushing.

If sloped right, it could be self un-loading!

Thanks for photo.

I just need to weld metal plates at both rail end!

I actually design a loading platform by applying "drawer" principle for building construction.

Normally the trolley will be inside building.

When receiving construction material by crane, part of the trolley (about 4m) will be pushed outside but the wheels and major part of trolley are still inside building.

Counterweight and welded end plates are to avoid capsize and out of track of trolley.

The travelling distance is only 4m

"part of the trolley (about 4m) will be pushed outside" ... "The traveling distance is only 4m" - something doesn't add up here.

I agree that something is very wrong here. Four meters is shorter than all but the smallest (1D) standard shipping container. [We needed more irrelevant citations.]

If you can get a crane to move this 7 tons then why can't it be moved 4 more meters with this crane? How does this unknown mass get off of the trolley? To safely lift 7 ton with a crane, the center of mass geometry must be known by a qualified ME. That ME should comment about this trolley folly. What about the floor or foundation, can this swamp land handle this load without sinking?

Lyn summed it all up in #13. If the OP has to ask us, the answer is NO.

What's the material you are trying to transport?

Exactly.

• A conveyor belt or pneumatic conveying might be options.
• Conveying using a boat on a waterway would be possible using one human.
• Conveying on hard-tyred road wheels would be possible with one horse.
• One of the UK railways once owned a human-powered locomotive. There was a reduction gear on the device, which was wound along the rails using human muscles, two sets of which turned a pair of large wheels on the device; it moved rather slowly and was well-capable of shifting a 7 ton wagon attached to it. There doesn't seem to be a photo of it on the interwobble.

This problem is so loosely-defined that all sorts of wacky ideas might be viable. The OP needs to describe the problem in greater detail so that it is possible to zoom in on solutions.

Same as this purpose

But my design allow such platform roll into building if unused

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Thank you.

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You see, it's all about asking the right questions.

As users are now leaving this thread faster than the sinking Titanic I had better point out that such a trolley design must be conducted by professional design engineers or an engineering consultancy company due to the safety issues involved including international and local building standards, codes of practice, etc this thing must be designed, built and installed to.

This has gone from a simple question to something much, much more and is outside our scope.

I lefty already but I came back to give this a good answer.

I hope young can here will draw the correct conclusions.

This is an industrial problem that has been solved many times before....

Purchase a battery operated transfer trolley as suggested above. When all costs are considered, it will probably be cheaper in the long run.

Look for used equipment..... Investigate the tracks/foundation requirements

It will come pre-designed, safety qualified, with brakes and you won't kill or maim anyone.

Don't expect two strong men to be able to move such a load, and with more than two men, the operation will become a YOUTUBE video of "what not to do".

Don't expect the trolley to be fast, either

"

Question- Have you ever seen two people push a Ford F-150 pickup truck by themselves? Thought so, very hard to do unless it is downhill.

Answer, sort of- Take that truck and put 2 more identical to it on top of the first truck and now push it with two people. Even harder if not downright impossible.

With 14,000 lbs for the whole unit you have 3,500 lbs on each wheel and it's bearing. That is similar to the first truck having only one weight bearing wheel and trying to push it along the surface. Very Very Hard to do!

The only way to achieve what you want to do is the hovercraft principal. Otherwise at 1-3/4 tons per bearing there is too much friction to rotate the wheels with the limited 2 person power available.

My skills for this analysis are not on my resume. These were developed while part of a team lifting VW bugs and rotating them. A little harder if the driver and passengers are still in it. The screaming makes it hard to concentrate.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Baloney. There are instances of a single person pulling a locomotive on a regular railroad. Post 1 is definitive on the matter.

Please cite at least one instance where an ordinary person, no Charlie Atlas's, have moved a locomotive, even a small SW-1, without any mechanical aid on level ground/tracks/floors. Also they continued to do it on a start and stop basis all day. The weight of an EMD SW-1 is 196,000 lbs. with 600hp. An EMD SD-40 is 360,000 lbs. with 3,000hp. 196,000lbs/person are not attractive numbers for pulling train locomotives.

Despite claims, I nor anyone I know of has ever seen or heard of this done in an industrial environment. Steel wheeled on rail flat trucks are sometimes used but those are not loaded with 7 tons and moved by hand. I have never met nor heard of anyone in industry who has claimed to have a manual system to do this and the reasons are obvious.

Having participated in a fund raising event where a large group pulled a 737 I can assure you from my personal experience that one ordinary person will not do the locomotive pull without either mass human aid or mechanical aid. Also the bearings on the landing gear of a passenger jet are much better than those on the traction motors of a locomotive. The rubber tires make it somewhat more difficult but not substantially. The devil is the weight/bearing.

Spare me the calculations. Even the early coal miners couldn't push a full mine car of coal on the steel tracks they road on. One person maybe once in a while but not frequently or on a daily basis. That's why "Mine Mules" were used.

Have you every pulled a 7 ton cart fully loaded, even a short distance? It takes several people to push a standard size car just to get it moving without the engine running and that's about 1/3 the weight.

The original post is not a sustainable operation. Also who pulled the locomotive by themselves? Get the truss belts out! Locomotives don't come outfitted with JATO packs.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Irrelevant. No one is being expected to move 180 tons back and forth all day; only 6-7 tons in the OP's scenario. This is a piece of cake if done properly, as described in post 1, which is definitive.

Moreover, most of your "counterexamples" involve rubber tires, which increase the required force enormously compared to steel-on-steel with suitable bearings.

Definitive? Perhaps. How would we know?

Once beyond the initial rolling resistance of the mass involved, steel wheels on steel rails, with proper bearings, can move on its own if not on a perfectly flat, level track.

An imperceptible slope is enough to do it.

Engineering knowledge actually tells us how to do stuff. But so often people of no experience of an area in question weigh in anyway. We see this a lot in pressure vessels, piping, electrical topics, and simple mechanics. Especially from anonymous posters, but not always.

Is that definitive, or speculative?

Even you know better than to ask a question like that.

Also Engineering knowledge tells us what and what can't be done. So often engineering personnel overestimate their capacities and underestimate the results of other engineering personnel or sources. Same as: I did it so it's got to be right, you did it so it so it's got to be wrong.

Three right turns do equal one left turn. Likewise, two left turns is the same as two right turns.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Have you ever heard of "Tornado". The newest steam locomotive in the UK?

Look here:-

Tornado Steam Engine Pictures

A1steam

She was built with modern ball/roller bearings instead of the old fashioned methods of making bearings, which makes maintenance far easier (no fireman with an oil can at each stop!) as well as improving efficiency slightly I would expect.....

Now that is possibly a Steam Loco that a strong man could maybe move on a flat piece of track....possibly....

The amounts of "Stiction" from a conventional loco would preclude that I feel....

Amazing, the CR4 Engineering Dictionary does not understand the word "Stiction"......DUUUHHHHH!!! Another one in a long line of such words....

I believe that the UK is the ONLY country with such a modern (old fashioned!!) Steam Loco!!!

She is beautiful and I do believe she is far quieter than previous engines of this class....though I have not had the pleasure of seeing her "live" YET!!

See these videos:-

Tornado 1

Tornado 2

Tornad 3

Shame there is no possibility to mark this as "Partially" Off Topic!!

I found this on the Wiki page for Torado, referring to the bearings used:-

The wheels were so smooth that the complete locomotive could easily be pushed out of the works by human power alone, as seen the locomotive was moved outside in preparation for the first steam-powered moves. If the locomotive were to be suspended, the entire wheel and motion arrangement could be turned by hand.

GA

True!

Many do not understand, you do!!

Thank you for the good and representative picture. It clearly shows what my statements have tried to illustrate: there are numerous things that can be done by a person who has developed themselves to do a particular task but they are beyond the capabilities of people of ordinary physical capabilities. The individual pictured seems to look more like an NFL offensive lineman than the person who you might meet in the local Wal-Mart. The lineman has more of a chance than I certainly do.

Again, some can once in a while and others can't do it at all. The frequent references to steel wheels and steel rails and there potential is clear in your #12 entry. If anyone were to look at the site you furnished they would see that those units are only available in powered units, too heavy to do it by hand without help.

Also, identified by the body "English" exhibited by the puller in the picture doesn't look like he could sustain the efforts for much longer.

Thank you for the great pictures. They clearly illustrate that 2 ordinary people can not push a 7 ton (14,000 lbs) car with steel wheels and on steel rails numerous times a day without human, gravitational or mechanical assistance. Also how much braking power is there provided by a penny on the rails? Will is be "squashed" or will it stop the car?

Good Luck, Old Salt

I'm certain that this herculean demonstration was started on a very level, clean section of track. I would expect also that each of those four cars are close to ten times the mass discussed in this thread.

To my mind the question has never been can somebody on a properly engineered and fabricated track move 7 tons of material using only human muscle energy and no simple machine assistance. This clearly can be done. I understand your valid point, old salt, that it is questionable if not dangerous to expect an average person to regularly move this much mass at once using just muscle energy. The question for me has always been should we assist somebody who has not demonstrated any comprehension what it takes to properly engineer or fabricate the conditions to move this much mass. In fact, the original question is itself an admission of insufficient understanding.

Thanks for the push back to the original question and also the push back to reality. Pushing/pulling the 7 tons in a plant is not a reasonable nor safe thing to do with only ordinary human power and I tried to example that. At least as I see it and some others have alluded to, no matter how you improve the mechanical features of it, with present components and reasonable costs it can not be done with human power. Add to it that the task is unsafe with present and near future operations shuts out its feasibility. Fortunately/unfortunately I have generally leaned towards identifying the problem or what is needed and then lets resolve it safely at a reasonable cost.

From an engineering and safety standpoint, I have always looked at truss belts as not being part of required PPE. Without going any further, there are also standards concerning hard work can be which must be complied with.

Thanks for the reality check. GA

Good Luck, Old Salt

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/rolling-friction-resistance-d_1303.html The math works for steel wheels on steel rails, both with good dimensional control.

grmondotvos-

Could you crunch some numbers into the cited formula. c=0.0015 (average of 0.001 and 0.002) and weight equal to 14,000 lbs. divided by 2 people

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Our German Engineer had developed Load Transfer Trolley similar to one shown by Solar Eagle post no.12. But it was designed for 2 tonne capacity for short distance straight path, mains operated and power was fed from overhead trailing cable system. It worked very well for years. It was very economical in operation as it did not have any need for batteries.

I suggest you can consider Metal Tyre on rails. It will be similar to 2 end carriages of overhead traveling crane running on floor with embedded rails. Power can be fed from top with shrouded safe bus bar system. For short run you can think of trailing cable system. You can approach your local crane mfr. who can help you.

I would like to clarify that pushing manualy by 2 persons 6 tonne load will be very tiring and labour cost will be high.

Are we moving anvils, grain or feathers?

Do you need a braking system?

Is it a super large volume, or is it nice and compact?

Will you need dump capability?

Will it need to be routed outside, up a hill and delivered to a dumpster of some sort? Remember, there are three parts to even this journey...the pickup, the move, and the delivery. I have seen trolleys with rings on them for external winches to be attached to "help out".

Tracks are best of course, but not because they are more efficient, but they are less likely for you to lose control of the load and send it into a work station. 7 tons is a dangerous load. Over head tracks are better, but even LESS flexible than trippy underfoot tracks which collect foreign object damage.

Youngken,

I give you something that really will help you with your design.

Logic!

The idea is that you unload from a crane onto a trolley which brings the item into the warehouse to be picked up by a overhead crane, right?

If the items are only delivered you would be looking at a slight slope into the warehouse so you have a gravity assist movement. The trolley will be empty on the way back.

Why at all worry about frictions and best options if one person can run this?

Just get some rails in and done.

The answer to your question is: The easiest way to push a trolley is down hill!

Dont forget the brake!