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Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

Posted June 24, 2007 4:51 AM by masu

Hydrogen has been touted by many as the fuel of the future and while it is true that at the point of use the major byproduct of its use is water it is not as simple as just converting everything to run on hydrogen rather than fossil fuels.

Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons, which means they are made up of compounds that consist mainly of hydrogen and carbon but they can also contain other elements like sulphur. When fossil fuels are mixed with air and burnt the hydrogen combines with oxygen to release energy and produce water H2O. However the carbon and other compounds also burn producing energy and substances like carbon dioxide CO2 and sulphur dioxide SO2.

There is another problem with thermal engines which is associated with the nitrogen that makes up around 79% of the atmosphere. To increase the efficiency of engines the combustion of fuel is carried out at high pressures and temperatures and under these conditions the nitrogen in the atmosphere can form nitrous oxides NOX and other nitrogen compounds that are highly toxic and react with sunlight to produce photochemical smog.

While all the combustion byproducts of fossil fuels have an effect on the atmosphere and environment it is the CO2, SO2 and NOX compounds that cause the majority of the problems.

In theory, hydrogen is an ideal fuel as when it is burnt in air the major byproduct is water, H2O, and while it is not totally without environmental effects they are minimal when compared to the byproducts of burning many fossil fuels. However like anything it's never that simple and there are some serious drawbacks:

  1. Like fossil fuels if H2 is burnt at high temperatures and pressures it can also produce nitrogen compounds?
  2. While H2 has a good energy per mass ration when compared with fossil fuels its density means that at normal atmospheric temperatures and pressures the volume makes storing it as a gas impractical. There are however ways to store H2 and currently the most promising are:
    1. Liquid H2. Hydrogen liquefies at -252° C so you can store it as a liquid but you must keep it a cryogenic temperatures. This uses up energy in the chilling process and temperatures as low as this are difficult to maintain. Temperatures this low can also change the properties of the material used to construct storage vessels and if liquid H2 ever comes in direct contact with living tissue it freezes and severely damages both the contact area and surrounding tissue..
    2. High pressure H2. Hydrogen is often stored under pressure but to gain a relatively useful energy to volume ratio you need pressures of around 70 Mpa (10,300 PSI). Constructing pressure vessels that can withstand pressures of this magnitude is no simple feat. There are also secondary problems of cooling a condensation as the fuel is used. Compressing the H2 to these pressures is also not easy and consumes a not insignificant amount of energy which has a detrimental effect on the overall efficiency.
    3. Hydrides Rather than storing hydrogen in its elemental form it can be stored compounded with other chemicals in a form that will release the hydrogen relatively easily.
    4. Absorption Media Similar in concept to storing the H2 as a hydride but rather than having the hydrogen chemically bonded it is stored in a manner that is not too dissimilar to the way a sponge soaks up water.
  3. Another problem with storing H2 is the size of the molecule. H2 is an extremely small molecule and is impossible to fully contain. No matter how good the container you build it will leak and H2 leaks can be extremely dangerous.
  4. Hydrogen also burns with a flame that is virtually invisible to the naked eye, so detecting leaks and burning H2 is difficult without specialized equipment.

Before we go any further let's look at how much H2 would be needed to replace current annual consumption of fossil fuels. In 2004 the world consumed about 407 EJ (407 x 1016 Joules) of energy from fossil fuels. Given hydrogen releases around 286 KJ mol-1 when combined with oxygen and H2 has a molecular mass of 2 x 1.00794 we can now calculate roughly how much H2 would need to be produced to replace the fossil fuels as follows:

Currently the global production of H2 is around 50 million metric tons but this would need to increase to at least 3,500 million metric tons per year. In reality it is more complex than this but it gives us a starting point that we can compare with existing technology and what would need to be done to replace the fossil fuel economy with a hydrogen economy.

If we are to move to a hydrogen economy it is going to involve a whole raft of different technologies so over the next few weeks we will look at some of the technologies that have the potential of making the hydrogen economy a reality rather than an empty pipe dream.

The first obvious source of H2 on earth is the water that makes up the world's oceans as water is made up of 2 atoms of hydrogen plus one atom of oxygen. The simplest way to separate the water forming H2 and O2 is to use electrolysis. However if we are to reduce the damage we are doing to the environment we need to find the energy needed to split the hydrogen from the oxygen from a renewable non polluting source. If we simply use existing fossil fuels like coal to generate the electricity you would end up producing more pollution than we currently are and we would end up being worse off than just using the fossil fuels directly.

So can we do it? Can we possibly ever produce anything like the 3.5 billion metric tons of H2 needed each year from the world's oceans and if not, how much can we realistically expect to be able to produce? What about the energy needed, where can we get 407 EJ plus the production, distribution and storage losses, of energy without creating even more pollution than we currently are? Do we really need to produce that much H2 or are there other alternatives?

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Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 1:07 AM

I understand that off-shore wind farms are impractical because if they are close enough to shore that electrical losses are acceptable, then the coastal dwellers complain about the ruined view. So why not put the wind farms far enough off-shore that they don't ruin the view, and use their electrical generating power to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in the sea water. The hydrogen could be piped long distances without suffering the losses associated with the long distance transmission of electricity.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 6:21 AM

"I understand that off-shore wind farms are impractical because if they are close enough to shore that electrical losses are acceptable, then the coastal dwellers complain about the ruined view. So why not put the wind farms far enough off-shore that they don't ruin the view"

The problem lies with transmitting power through under sea cables. By the nature of the cables and the AC current we utilize worldwide to distribute electricity you always loose a proportion of the energy to the cable and water surrounding the cable. The further you transmit power the higher you need to make the voltage and the higher the voltage the more you loose to the water surrounding the cable. As a result there is a maximum distance that you can transmit electrical energy using under sea cables.

However, there are ways to do it and there have been major improvements in cabling that now make it feasible to look at transmitting power from Iceland to Scotland so placing wind farms far enough out to sea to make them invisible from land is not longer the problem it once was. You will still loose energy and it will cost more but it is technically possible and I believe has been done in at least one case off the coast of Holland.

One of the systems I think that shows great potential is the CETO Wave Farm. Basically it consists of a series of flotation devices that are anchored to the sea floor so they float just beneath the surface. As the wave move over the flotation devices they cause massive forces to build up at the base of the anchoring system and these forces are harnessed using a system that pumps the water through pipes to the shore. The kinetic energy of the water is then used to generate electricity.

It looks pretty good to me but and I can't see anything that cold be detrimental, but, I can pretty much guarantee that some lunatic will whine like all heck when they try and build the first one and get the whole thing canned.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 7:17 AM

Why would we need hydrogen that is difficult to store, that has a poor energy density of storage and low efficiencies in the whole chain of production transport and conversion? Who is pushing for using Hydrogen anyway? Are they independently thinking engineers or have they interest somewhere in the chain?

There are easier solutions like biofuel from algae. they don't need agricultural land, no fertilizers and grow very fast. Furthermore combustion engines can handle this fuel easily. The solution is simple and low cost in terms of transport and storage. When locally used the CO2 emitted by running generator sets of this biofuel can be redirected straight back into the water, feeding the algae still in the water and raising productivity to 140.000 liters of fuel (of 42MJ/liter) per hectare per year. Carbon is then cycling, sunlight comes in , electricity out.


In the end we try to find energy solutions that emit no CO2 into the atmosphere. More than 90% of the current hydrogen production is emitting CO2. (Reforming from CH4 for example) So in a way hydrogen as a liquid/compressed energy carrier is not the solution to our problem of too high CO2 level in the atmosphere. Keep this in mind.

Randolph Toom

An independent engineer

www.heat2power.net

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/30/2007 4:29 PM

The CETO wave farm idea does look interesting, particularly at it's test location. Sort of the perfect combination ragarding form to fit and function. That is,

1. good and consistent available wave energy at Australia's southwest coast,

2. a market for the fresh water to be provided, given that WA is apparently already requiring and considering more desalinization,

3. a little electricity on the side,

I hope their 3x3 test works well and that the Parson's advice regarding maintenance design for the underwater environment have been given detailed engineering attention.

A little confusion on their multiplication. They indicate that a single unit is good for 900,000 liters/day and 100 (or is it 125) are good for 45 GL per year. At 100% capacity factor I get 365.25 days/year * 900,000 liters/day /1E9 liters/GL I get 0.33 GL/unit/year. About 137 units would be required on that basis. And the Parsons study suggested something about a 45% capacity factor. I'm also a little confused on CETO II vs CETO III capacities.

Oh, at one point Mr. Burns of CETO Wave Energy mentioned nuclear. One might look at the following in this regard:

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1524_web.pdf

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 11:32 AM

One is then faced with the problem of the long-distance transport of the hydrogen instead! Pushing anything through a pipe requires energy, the consumption of which in the distribution system affects the economics of the operation. Likewise with liquefaction and transport in a ship.

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#7
In reply to #1

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 11:54 PM

The hydrogen could be piped long distances without suffering the losses associated with the long distance transmission of electricity.

Actually, with hydrogen there are the pumping losses associated with moving anything through pipelines. But in addition, there is the leakage problem (because the molecules are so small) along with the embrittlement problem caused by exposing steel to hydrogen.

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Anonymous Poster
#8
In reply to #1

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/27/2007 2:38 AM

i think that piping hydrogen is not an option, because the H2 molecule is so small that the leaking would be considerable and far more explosive than any other conventional fuel.

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#4

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 7:31 AM

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/104/12/4828

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/03/researchers_pro.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1801822/posts

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0609921104v1.pdf

It may be possible to use hydrogen while avoiding the need for a hydrogen economy infrastructure creation; to significantly reduce net CO2 emissions from the transportation sector; and encourage the efficiencies of at least diesel engines.

The above links provide a description of a hydrogen-augmented Fischer-Tropsch gassification process, along with comments of varying degrees of pertinance, usefulness, and depth.

If practical (no flow sheets, but at least based on some Aspen modeling) this also might, in the early going substantially reduce the carbon footprint for coal use in the transportation sector.

Also, for Australia, with its substantial coal and uranium resources, this may prove to be a cost effective means of using both.

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#5

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

06/25/2007 10:54 AM

"No matter how good the container you build it will leak"

The first hydrogen powered BMW on british roads will lose half the mass of hydrogen if left for two weeks.

Some assosciated info.

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Anonymous Poster
#10

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

07/10/2007 7:29 PM

I was looking at the Joe Cell thing and trying to figure it out. I hypothesized that most of the stuff you hear about it now is just disinfo. I assumed that it was an electrolysis device as it appears rather than some esoteric etheric device which shoots secret energy into your carburetor and restructures the air so that it burns. If one looks at a Joe Cell, one sees that it appears to work as if a number of electrolysis cells were connected in series. [Each ring in the Joe cell acts as both anode on one surface and cathode on the other.] I decided to test gas production from electrolysis cells in series. For the same amount of power, I produced approximately 300% more hydrogen when six electrolysis cells were connected in series than the single cell control. It works. Try it yourself with test tubes and straight DC power. I was using 16 V DC. The single cell ran at 16V 70milliamps for 10 minutes and filled 3.4 cm of the test tube with hydrogen. 6 electrolysis cells were set in series and ran at 16V, 10milliamps for 60 minutes and each test tube was filled with 2.4cm of hydrogen. The results conservatively showed 300-400% higher H2 production than standard DC electrolysis. Check it out, do the experiment. Took me just a few minutes to set up. Peace, Joshua Gulick P.S. check out my new website http://alchemicals.com and let me know what you think or get a free ebook about alchemy. Or order my magnetite pills which make you psychic! Add a link to me on your website and tell me about it and I'll give you a big discount!

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

07/11/2007 1:38 AM

The results conservatively showed 300-400% higher H2 production than standard DC electrolysis.

So if standard electrolysis is 75% efficient, then series electrolysis would be 250% - 300% efficient. I suppose, then, that a 30 hp generator feeding such a device could produce the hydrogen to run a 100 hp car, more or less.

Where's my checkbook?

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#12

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

07/11/2007 7:07 AM

Re "Hydrogen also burns with a flame that is virtually invisible to the naked eye, so detecting leaks and burning H2 is difficult without specialized equipment."

A while back I had discussions with a gas manufacturer on this. The specialized equipment for small leak detection was soapy water (very effective soap bubble test). One of their pieces of equipment for hydrogen flame detection was a broom extended in front of them. [Not to say the thermal imaging equipment couldn't be used]

With everyone carrying brooms and soapy water, think how much cleaner the world could be.

Seriously though, a very good upfront discussion.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

07/13/2007 10:18 AM

Hi N&P,

"With everyone carrying brooms and soapy water, think how much cleaner the world could be."

I like the idea, very clever.

Actually the soapy water idea can work very well in many situations but it has one serious limitation and that is you need to believe that there is a leak in the first place and since H2 is colourless, odorless and tasteless you need something else to tell you that you need to start looking for the leak. In reality it is a method of locating leaks rather than detecting them,

There is one place that using soapy water could be dangerous and that is when looking for oxygen O2 leaks. If O2 comes in contact with things like fat or oil that can burn you can end up with a very nasty fire. Soap is primarily made from fat dissolved in a alkaline fluid so there is a chance you could end up with a potentially hazardous situation. I am not 100% certain that soap is a problem with O2 but it's something I would avoid unless I found a reliable source that said otherwise.

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#14
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Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

07/16/2007 11:19 AM

Good link.

As a supplier of hydrogen, Air Products puts a positive spin on handling H2 as a fuel, but even with that positive spin, H2 comes across as fraught with problems. The combination of undetectability, ultra high flammability, broad flammable mixture range, expected leaks, and low ignition energy makes H2 unappealing as an alternative to LNG, which is already unappealing as an alternative to petrol, diesel, biodiesel, ethanol, batteries, etc.

Although the Tesla people have revised their range figures downward to 200 miles, that is still very workable for many people, and can be expected to improve by a factor of 2 fairly soon. I'd be much happier with an EV in my garage than I would be with an H2 vehicle.

Imagine going away for 9 days to return to your home knowing that your H2 Bimmer has vented half its tank into your garage. How confident would you feel as you pressed the remote for your garage door opener (knowing its motor is not explosion proof)?

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#16
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Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

08/08/2007 11:40 PM

Ken,

I know nothing about the Bimmer, but if we are to make anything containing H2 remotely safe, surely all circuits and devices must be either Flameproof (Exd group ii) or Intrinsically safe (Exia group ii). Just imagine the weight cost and complexity penalty that this would bring.

Compared with the garage containing the Bimmer, give me a coal mine any day at least Methane is only group i.

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#15
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Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

07/16/2007 11:31 AM

Nice article. I have only glanced over it but I have saved a copy and will read it in detail in the not too distant future.

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#17

Re: Future Energy Sources 3.1.1 Water & the Hydrogen Economy

05/17/2009 12:45 PM

Hi Masu,

A very useful post on this topic.

1 Hydrogen is not a fuel but a fuel transport mechanism. It can only be a fuel after it has been manufactured.

2 The energy cost of manufacture and transport has to be contained within the cost of using Hydrogen as an energy source.

3 Manufacture is the first problem as you have started to express. There are major cost and energy issues here.

4 Transport is also a major issue, as others have said, Blink et al, the use of pipes to transport Hydrogen is difficult and expensive due to the size of the H2 molecule - if you compare H2 molecule size against the size of methane or LPG molecule then you can see that unless there is a major step function in pipe transportation then H2 will simply leak away.

5 I am less concerned about the explosion issue, but I could be wrong, as H2 will just drift away after a leak and the power of H2 as a blast or major fire source is unlikely to be a significant risk provided that we do not try to contain H2 outside the pipe.

6 So manufacture and distribution are the major problems, I believe.

7 You started to address other methods of transport, reducing leakage through absorbtion or combination with other materials. This could be a way to go although it is an additional financial and energy cost which cannot help the overall process.

Sorry to be so negative as a start but I have particpated in so many fora on this topic. We need some bright ideas!

I look forward to this issue being developed further.

Sleepy

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