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Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

Posted September 09, 2007 7:08 AM by masu

Before anybody jumps in and thinks I am some sort of a racist or bigot of some kind I am not condoning, recommending or otherwise supporting any sort of population limitation or control. This thread is being started as it was suggested as a topic for discussion when this blog was initially created.

Going back about 10,000 years, when the human race first started to move away from a pure subsistence and roaming existence, to a society that was generally fixed in location and cultivated crops, the global population was around 5 million. For the population to double back then it took around 2,000 years. By the year 1 AD the population had increased to around 200 million and was doubling roughly every 1,200 years. By the end of the 20th century the population had reached 6 billion and unless something happens will double in a little over 200 years.

Since we live on a very finite rock called Earth, with finite resources, we can clearly not expect the rapidly increasing growth in population to continue, without some dramatic changes taking place. Many believe that the world is already way over populated and that trying to house, feed, clothe and supply the energy needs is already overtaxing the planets resources. Of the more than 6 billion people on Earth a relatively small minority are responsible for the majority of the consumptions of the finite resources and energy. If the standard of living of all is to be raised to that of the few that are fortunate enough to live in the developed nations, the impact on the planet would most likely be catastrophic and we would quickly deplete the remaining reserves of minerals, fuels etcetera.

Clearly we can't continue the way we are with an accelerating population growth as well as increasing rate individuals are consuming energy and resources without something drastic happening. To date this series has looked at either ways of reducing our energy requirements or being more frugal with what we have. However another solution would be to control and or reduce the population to a level that the planet could safely support.

The Peoples Republic of China has for some time had a policy of one child per family that was introduced in an attempt to curb population growth. However, it has had some fairly unanticipated effects particularly in farming communities where there is a need for young male children to carry on running the farms. Authorities ultimately had to severely limit the use and access to pre natal ultrasound scans as people were using it to selectively abort female fetuses. It has also led to births not being reported and bogus information being supplied to census takers. As a result the program has not been implemented equally and due to the bogus information collected during censuses there is no way to know with any certainty what the actual population is.

Over the period that humans have been the predominant species on earth nature has intervened in various ways to reduce the population both on a local and global basis. There is a long list of catastrophic events that have severely limited the growth of the human population. However, the most devastating of these events must be the pandemics that have ravaged the population several times since records were first kept.

The first recorded outbreak of bubonic plague started in Egypt in 541 AD and ran pretty much unchecked across the known world for over 200 years. At the height it was reportedly killing 10,000 people a day in Constantinople and by the time it eventually subsided it may have killed between 50% and 60% of the population of the known world.

One of the main limiting factors in the control of pandemics has been the relatively short incubation period of most diseases coupled with the slow transport and lack of mobility of the population in general. Prior to WWI most people never traveled more than a few kilometres from their homes. This, coupled with diseases that only took several days to demonstrate symptoms, meant that the spread of disease was severely limited. However, with the introduction of mass migration and the advances in transport that came about leading up to and during WWI people could travel fairly large distances before becoming symptomatic. The outbreak of Spanish Influenza in 1918 to 1919 is believed to have been spread throughout the world by troops returning home after WWI. While it was only a short lived pandemic compared to others in history, estimates at the time put the global death toll between 40 and 50 million people. However, more recent estimates put the death toll at somewhere between 50 and 100 million making it the most deadly of all pandemic events to date.

With the advances in technology during and since WWII it is now possible for a carrier to be anywhere on earth within 24 hours making the control and limitation of the spread of diseases like the Spanish Influenza almost impossible. Health organizations around the world are extremely concerned with the Avian Influenza H5N1 virus. Currently the H5N1 virus can only be transmitted to humans by birds. While migratory birds have the potential to spread the virus throughout the world its spread amongst humans is severely limited. However, if the H5N1 virus were to co-infect somebody or something that was also infected with an influenza virus that can be spread by human to human contact, the results could very well be a variant of the H5N1 virus that can be directly transmitted between humans. If this were to happen the results could well be a pandemic that makes the Spanish Influenza outbreak of 1918-1919 look like a head cold.

You can read more from the following links:


As usual this raises a myriad of questions, many of which are ethical and highly emotive. Firstly does anybody have the right to do as the Chinese Government has and force people to have fewer children? If we do not find some way to curb our ever accelerating population growth then there is a good chance that nature will step in and do it for us, but in a far less palatable way. Can we therefore afford not to act and find some way to stem the growth in human population and at least limit it to something like the current population? If everybody were to have a standard of living that was comparable to that of the richer and more developed countries of the western world how many people could the planet realistically support? Can we ever expect to develop sustainable technologies that can feed, cloth and supply energy to the current population let alone an ever increasing population?

It is definitely a very curly subject and unfortunately the only answers that currently seem to be possible are all less than desirable.

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#1

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/09/2007 8:58 PM

A generation ago Planned Parenthood and others started pushing the notion that smaller families would save the world from Malthusian catastrophy. White Americans bought the idea because it also afforded mom and dad more disposable cash. So here we are today in an America that is importing labor in every area of our economy. And a large percentage of our white youth isn't worth the powder to blow 'em to hell.

Count me out as a donor or supporter of your scheme.

bobguz

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#9
In reply to #1

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/10/2007 9:40 AM

Hi bobguz,

  • Count me out as a donor or supporter of your scheme.

As I stated in my first paragraph this is not my scheme and is not something I am suggesting or endorsing. I am just presenting the information in a effort to create productive discussion that will hopefully open the eyes of people to the problems we face as members of the global human race.

Australia is facing shortages of skilled labor in a similar way to the USA but it is not really the lack of reproduction as many including the government would have you think.

In Australia and I suspect it is the same in the USA, the shortage of skilled labor is simply caused by corporate and individual greed and the lack of willingness to invest time money and effort in the training of the work force. For several decades now corporate executives and upper management have had a policy of getting work done as cheaply as possible regardless of who is doing the work. The result is the outsourcing of much of the production to countries like India and China where the workers are paid a pittance. There has also ben massive resistance to the training of apprentices, cadets and trainees.

This has all been brewing along in the background for around 30 years now which just happens to be about the effective working life of most highly skilled and trained personnel. We are now facing serious problems as most of skilled and highly trained people are now reaching retiring age. Since nobody has bothered to train any replacements for about the same time we are in deep trouble.

Yes, I agree that there is a serious problem with lack of skills but it's definitely not due to a lack of breeding but rather greed and the reluctance to invest money in training.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/10/2007 1:46 PM

My own opinion is that if we cant control our population growth on our own, natural forces will do it for us. However, as to the issue of outsourcing to India and China, this is strictly controlled by greed. Not just greed on the part of CEOs, but greed/jealousy on the part of individuals in the developed economies, where every person believes he/she has a right to own the newest toy (be it computer, ATV, automobile etc.). Often, people in developed economies who are unwilling to work (or4 cant find work that provides for the lifestyle they want to have) push the governments to provide them with more "goodies", by voting for those that promise more (even if they cant possibly follow through). Many people in developed countries have come to an entitlement mindset, which means that "someone" must provide cheaper and cheaper goods. Those goods will be produced/sold by whoever has the best costs. Therefore, business in the developed countries, since it can't find the capability to provide cheap goods made in their own country will look to reducing costs on the one thing they can control manpower costs (since natural resource costs and transportation are largely similar whereever things are produced). So the businesses send the manufacturing overseas, while still reaping the profits in country.

I spend a lot of time volunteering in so-called 3rd world countries and I find that these people would not be immigrating to the US or elsewhere if the jobs were there in their own countries and allowed them to improve their standard of living. So, trade treaties are helpful from that regard (although personally, I dont like them). Lets face it, if we had a society that could control it's greed, there wouldnt be such a problem with costs/jobs/etc.


Btw, look at the relative standard of living in the US over that last 40 years compared to other developed countries. Has it really improved, even with the advent of computers (which were to provide more leisure time). I believe people work more for less than ever. Many people cant retire to a decent life anymore because of rising costs.


But then this is all only my own opinion; the only one I can have.

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#17
In reply to #11

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

03/26/2008 11:26 PM

You can have mine, but you can't give it back and most find that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. (rim shot please)

Anyway, of course people flock here because our standard of living is much better than theirs. I would. Greed is probably older than everything but lust. We'll have pocket fusion devices before we put a dent in Greed. Power is the "high" that drives greed. and once you get a taste for it, you'll do anything to get more of it. Trade treaties, NAFTA, the EU, the UN, etc, etc, etc are all just means to an end for the really Hooked.

It's called One World Government. Politicians cut their teeth on families, then they joined bands together into tribes. Tribes were merged or taken and joined and became countries. Countries pushed and shoved, rose and fell. Then, when information started to travel, people started to balk and politicians placated them with media.

Then came the Internet. And you think they aren't hooking into it and attempting control? China is even trying to start their own and limit their citizens more than they already do. I think the China actually gets it and is trying to protect itself. Western society seems to want to have one governing body. Big government, world domination.

Take the US, for example. Easiest way to stop illegal immigration is to require proof of citizenship for jobs and punish those employers that fail to comply (there are issues with identification, but easily solved). Will the government do that? Noooo, big business wants the cheap labor, politicians want the money from big business (well, they want to take all your money then tell you what you can have, but that's a manifestation of the greed).

So, basically, if we want to change greed, we'd have to kill everything and let the cockroach's take a stab at it. And they have been waiting patiently...<evil music rises in the background>

As for volunteering in third world countries. If that's what makes you happy, more power to you. Just remember the old proverb "Give a man a fish, he eats fish, give him another and he feels you now owe him every day". Ok, bastardized the hell out of that one, but if you think about it, no I haven't (though I think Jesus is frowning down on me right about now wondering where I'm going with this and telling Zeus to get the lightning bolt ready). You can 'give' people anything. But their lifestyle and experience got them to the point they are at. The gift may ease a current need for little bit, but now they are a little better off, but the basics of their life has not changed, with the exception of one thing, they now know others have more and can give it, so they feel entitled.

That works in the African savannas, the Brazilian Jungles or the typical urban ghetto. "God helps those that help themselves" (Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac, 1736). If you want to change them, you have to control them. If they want to change, they will. Even teaching someone something can have it's hazards.

You can teach a man to make gunpowder, you can only hope he does right with it. And if he does wrong with it, who's responsible? The Chinese have a proverb about that to. Save a man's live and you are responsible for him.

Even so called altruistic acts are rarely truly that. In all of my endeavors in volunteering and helping dealing with those that do on an organizational level runs something like this.

  • "I can tell people I'm a volunteer so they will think better of me"
  • "I can feel better about myself because I helped someone"

I'm not condemning it, not by a long shot. But if you're doing it for altruistic or noble reasons, you wouldn't have needed to bring it up in this discussion. It didn't really add to your point or qualifications to make the statements you did. And there's nothing wrong with doing it for your own ego, or to expunge some demon that you feel a need to satisfy. God knows I do. Nothing wrong with a little ego massage as long as no one has to get hurt (unless they really want to...um, er....ok, not going there ).

As to the American Standard of Living. LOL, that's gone way up. I think I hear Nero warming up in the background though. It's our ability to pay for raising it that is in serious trouble. Most people in the United States are currently in debt. But our total consumer debt pales in comparison to the US Government Debt. Did you know the Government keeps 4 sets of books? They only report one to us. Estimates are somewhere between 30 and 40 Trillion. That's about 15 times what the consumer debt is FOR THE ENTIRE US POPULATION (not including mortgage debt).

I'd say we've spent ourselves into a wonderful standard of living. Thats the problem. Everyone thinks they deserve to have everything. Our government went off the gold standard and now measures the strength of our economy by how much we buy. Kinda takes the incentive out of the government trying to save or prompt you to save, doesn't it. We don't even make much here anymore. Perfect example: Steel to rebuild the World Trade Center is being imported. Apparently no one makes that much or that kind of Steel in the US. When I found that out I really did ROFL, just before I started crying.

Try finding something in Walmart or Target that says "Made in the USA". If you could find 100 things it would be a miracle. And half of those would contain components from some other company. (I got a California orange once, ate it, spit out the seed and it had a tiny little sign on it that said "Made in China" )

And what do our beloved politicians want to do? SPEND MORE MONEY.

And that ends my little rant. I just thought you could do with a few more concepts to round out your opinion. I don't think it's going to improve your outlook, but I know I'd rather see the train coming, even if I'm not fast enough to get off the tracks.

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#2

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/09/2007 9:19 PM

Hi Masu,

I hear what you are saying, and yes, control is required for population, I also think that china dose not have the answer.

All countries see growth, as the main index to gauge success, there may be better economic control's that can hold, a sustainable answer.

This could form a subject title of it own within –

Technologies_for_Future_Energy_and_Power_Production

I would like to offer up some food for thought –

"A Systems Approach to Governance for Sustainability"

http://www.sustainability.dpc.wa.gov.au/conferences/refereed%20papers/Sanders,R%20-%20paper.pdf

Well worth reading ………………………….enjoy.

Regards,

Macker

(Newcastle - Australia)

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/10/2007 1:22 AM

Hi Masu and Macker

"Well worth reading ……………….enjoy" Well worth reading - FOR SURE! ...enjoy - not so sure!

WOW! That's great! Now how do we make governments and business understand those concepts?

I thought the world was overpopulated 40 years ago, and acted accordingly: we intentionally had no children. There are, of course, pluses and minuses to all decisions. Now I don't think the world is overpopulated, I KNOW it.

This concept MUST be a part of any realistic energy policy.

I do find it interesting to see this at this time; just this week I heard on the radio here in the USA (true or false -I don't know), that Australia has a campaign on to encourage people to have more children: One for mom, one for pop, and one for Australia (or something to that effect).

To bobguz: I did my share of field work as a child - that was one of the principal motivators to continue my education! I agree that most youth today don't get that experience, and most wouldn't be of much help if they did... However, we are already way too dependent on illegal immigrants. If there are not enough workers to do any given job, the cost of producing the associated commodity will rise. If the cost rises sufficiently, then it will become economical to develop other means (eg. robotics) to perform the same tasks. We MUST have a limit to the number of passengers on this spaceship. As Masu said, if we don't limit ourselves, Nature will do it for us sooner or later - and not likely in an enjoyable fashion!

Dick

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/10/2007 10:16 AM

Hi Dick,

  • I do find it interesting to see this at this time; just this week I heard on the radio here in the USA (true or false -I don't know), that Australia has a campaign on to encourage people to have more children: One for mom, one for pop, and one for Australia (or something to that effect).

Yes, it is true that there is a push by the Australian government to get Australians breeding more frequently. There a myriad of financial enticements that they have introduced over the last few years to encourage couples to have more children and there has been a dramatic increase in the birth rate over that time.

However, prior to the government's push the death rate was larger than the birth rate and the only reason the population wasn't going down was immigration. 67% of Australian residents claim to have ethnic origins outside Australia and I am led to believe but am not certain, that around 25% of the population were born outside Australia.

According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics Population Calculator the current population is 21,060,130 and increasing by one every 1 minute and 45 seconds. That's not really that many when you consider Australia is about the same size and the USA and that's before you take into account our territories, protectorates, islands and Antarctic Territory.

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#4

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/10/2007 1:56 AM

We should also think about market based approaches. A carbon tax on energy & permiting for parents.

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#5

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/10/2007 5:01 AM


I want to share two thoughts on this topic.

1.- The roman tribune Caton the old (234-149B.C), in his treaty about agriculture, considered that the ideal farm for a family nucleus to be about 25 hm2.

Nowadays there are around 2 hm2 available per family nucleus in the world -this last number is very approximative, 29% of the earth surface is land, and 6000 million people-

2.- Rapa Nui, also known as Eastern island, is a very good example of what may happen to earth if we do not reduce our population and resource consume growth rate.

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#6

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/10/2007 5:20 AM

The overpopulation issue is always raised by the wealthy, technologically advanced peoples who fear for the future of their comfortable, insulated lifestyles.

Invest in raising global living & education standards for everyone - make it happen - and the problem will be solved. Is that likely to happen anytime soon? I think not.

Meanwhile, overpopulation bad, episodic pandemics good.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limi

09/10/2007 7:19 AM

Yes, the question of Growth as the watchword in Capitalism is how to get politicians to believe that society can exist in its present state without growth.

In his book The Turning Point - Science Society and the Rising Culture, Fritjof Capra discusses - apart from his long diatribe against rigid Cartesian thinking - the effect of population growth in the three phases of society. He argues that the 'northern ' cultures have gone through phases 1, 2 & 3, but that the 'southern ' cultures are stuck at phase2 where deaths have been reduced but that the reduction in procreation has not come about because of the lack of perceived sense of security that is allegedly engendered by having a large family to look after you in your dotage. Conversely in 'northern' cultures those with children ask those without, what the hell they do for aggravation. (Updike)

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#7

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/10/2007 6:26 AM

I have made comments in the past, in response to the posts describing a couple of gargantuan (Japanese) building concepts. When a country proposes tickling the stratosphere with a building to solve crowding problems, it's time to give population control a good long look.

But I think we all know that the problem is political. Old school political (and capitalist) thinking is that growth = more money (GDP, taxes) = more power.

Up until recently, this was considered sound policy.

But I think our planet is trying to tell us otherwise.

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#12

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/10/2007 11:24 PM

I am aware of the over population of our planet. My wife and I chose to have 1 child + (her previous child) and then took the measure to make sure we cannot have any more. As prices rise we really cannot afford to have any more either. I teach my children to take care of the earth the very best they can, we eat only what we need, recycle what we can, grow our own food when we can. We bought a small house just big enough but with enough land for a decent garden and I hope that more people take to teaching their children of these things. I hope that companies will start to recycle more items and especially plastic bags, I feel guilty anytime i throw something in the trash that should be recycled. I hope that they start producing the MDI air car here in the united states soon and not charge $50,000 for it, I'd like to buy one.

Commenting on companies not training, taking apprentices, or looking ahead:

I wish my employer would take notice of me and prepare to fill a vacancy with me. I understand what you guys are saying, they do not train anyone anymore and they will probably outsource the job to someone instead of training me to take the position. Plenty smart, plenty capable of doing the job with more quality than the current position holders but discriminated against because I only have an associates degree. I think its crap.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/12/2007 7:56 AM

Hi Heart Cooks Brain,

The concept of the air car is no better than any other as the energy to compress the air needs to come from somewhere. When you factor in the inefficiency of the compression process and loss of energy due to heat you usually end up consuming more energy and producing more pollution than using a petrol driven car. All you are really doing is moving the pollution to a place where it is out of sight and with humans out of sight usually means out of mind. The result is you end up with people using more energy and creating more pollution while believing they are doing the exact opposite.

No matter what you do you need to look at the process as a whole and that means from the source of the raw energy all the way through to what happens after the energy has been utilized and what happens to the waste products. When you do this you often find that you are actually worse off and all you have done is concentrate the pollution in one place that is not immediately visible to the end users.

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#13

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

09/11/2007 11:22 PM

An indirect method of population control has already been demonstrated: When people have access to better health care, so infant mortality rates are reduced, they tend to have significantly smaller family sizes. This has been seen in many countries.

More education and higher socio-economic status seems to have a correlation with reduced family size. This is also documented in census data.

Finally, other "incentives" can increase population growth, such as prolonged and senseless curfews, lack of electrical power during many hours of the day, etc.

--JMM

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#15

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

03/26/2008 9:13 PM

I know, I know, you saw the picture and groaned a little. I guess that means I doing my job (it's a self appointed position, Grand Annoyer of the Masses). Be that as it may, I'm just going to toss in a few comments on this one.

We've (as homo sapiens) implemented population control in many ways. Wars, stupidity (see Darwin awards), government mandate (see China), vehicles, alcohol, TV (think about what you would be doing to entertain yourself if American Idol wasn't on ) and suicide. Damn it, they just aren't working fast enough.

Nature has tried to assist us, and still tries to do her part with volcanoes, floods, plagues, droughts, diseases and storms (ok, there's lots more, but gimme a break).

Damned Doctors and Engineers and keep foiling all these perfectly viable attempts by 'curing' things, 'fixing' things or making things 'safer'. Politicians and Lawyers try to pass laws and enforce disincentives to us gracefully attempting to assist in this noble endeavor. Sports introduced padding and roll cages, hell even fencing put little rubber tips on the swords. They take all the fun out of everything.

I can't take credit for this solution but it's only 2 words and it solves the problem...Soylent Green Muahahahaha

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Future Energy Sources 5.0 Reduction of Energy Demand Through Population Limitation

03/26/2008 9:16 PM

Sry, missed the main one I was going to suggest. How much energy do you think we could extract from burning a politician or lobbyist? That might solve two problems <very evil grin>

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