Magnets coming loose from rotor on Harley alternator

01 harley, that would be your 1st problem, good if you need to mix some paint, or need to have some oil spots in your garage.

Rice is nice

A good cleaning & some epoxy should get you there!

Garthh,

I posted this expecting some to take the bait and to deliver the oh so cheap shots about the everlasting bad name that hd has. I am not even going to reply with cheap answers, I just hope that if you ever do brake down on any make of bike and are stranded on the side of the road, I am driving past as I will stop and share all my tools that I always carry with me (just in case my very reliable harley coughs up a cold). Hell if my spark plugs are the same as yours you can even have one of those to help you out.

We should all be brothers on two wheels and feel akin, leave the bitching to those car drivers that try to kill you next junction by pulling out and not seeing you.

Ride safe and as you say, keep the rubber on the right side.

I stop & help irrespective of brand myself.

when it comes to bench racing [riding], no holds barred!

more later

Someone might be fiddling with it with a view to creating an over-unity energy device. Beware strangers offering gifts!

clean with ether and J_B Weld

Methylated spirits works just as well, easy to find, is cheaper and less dangerous too....

It is also a good cleaner if you get 2 part epoxy (while still not solid!) on things that it should not be on, like fingers etc...

Cleaning is not my problem as I have access to solvents that were banned 10 years ago and can shrivel paint from 100 yards.

The glue has to stand up to hot and cold changes and the expansion that goes with it. I think that is why it failed to begin with. It is also running in the primary chamber with the primary drive chain and primary oil. Clutch in there somewhere as well so all in all a nasty environment.

Some sugestion with regards to this would be good. One said high temp epoxy and I do have loctite super steel 1 and 2. This is a 2 component plastic metal padding. I suppose I will have to look it up on the web if it is very heat resistant.

Do you know if araldyte is heat resistant?

According to this web site, Araldite 2021 is good upto 212°F, which should be OK?

See:-

Araldite 2021.pdf

There are so many different Araldites, I would ring up the company and get some better infos directly if you need a higher temperature range.

I have used JBWeld years ago and it was also excellent, but another poster is not so sure. It certainly handles heat quite well, up to 500°F and is Epoxy based too. See:-

JB-Weld

I also repaired a huge AC Compressor brine pump with Araldite 41 years ago, that had got eaten away with the brine, the repair was better and lasted longer than the original metal part, because it kept the brine away from the metal!!!

Thanks very helpful, I am so busy replying to Garthh that I have not had any chance to look yet. Emotions running wild with this harley thing, tssk I don't know.

It's just a harley

it is what it is!

The rides the thing

It would be great if they would move their design forward a bit

the thump is great, if you like a modern antique, more power to you

HD's need to go on a serious diet & pull the front end in so they'll go around a corner.

Even Buell went to a unit motor & tranny, they had to go else where as Milwaukee was of no help.

I await to enevitable abuse to follow.

212F might not be enough for a Harley. It is air cooled V-twin I assume, and they have a reputation for getting hot in traffic and at slower speeds.

My K7 GSXR750 gets up to 220F on a hot day, more sometimes in trafic.

Have you asked the HD dealership or a mechanic there what they would use?

I'll bit my tongue on the Harley Bashing:) Up around here the stuck up bastards won't even acknowledge a "brother" on Jap crap when they send a friendly wave. I have not had 1 single problem with either of my GSXR's ... so much for jap crap:D

Where is the alternator manufactured? Try the manufacturer?

I had the same idea about the temperature and will look for something a bit hotter.

Andy gave me a good lead, as soon as I have some time I will look at it in detail.

It is a shame that we brothers treat eachother with so much contempt, just like the real world I suppose.

Also I do believe that if you have a hog fuzzy, you can be damned as near assured they will not wave at you even if you stand there doing it with both arms. These hog fuzzies are too stuck up as you said and will find everything else below them. Not all harley riders are like that but you cannot tell from the headlamp so you need to keep the faith and wave for all you are worth. (although I have days I get a bit upset when none are waving back and I stop for a while)

Just finished chopping my push rods out of the engine without removing valve train. Greatly helped by sizeable bolt croppers Funny, I wasn't even scared doing it

Many epoxies have a heat deformation temp that's pretty low (160-180f). Your alternator probably gets that hot, or hotter. A good high-temp epoxy would work -- but that is probably what was originally used.

As I'm sure you are aware, epoxy sticks perfectly to thing like tools you don't want it on ... and peels right of something you've carefully prepared. But, in any case, good prep is essential. Epoxy doesn't "chemically" bond to anything -- so the bonding surfaces have to be spotlessly clean and roughened.

Another possibility, if the fit at the back of the magnets is near perfect: Locktite bearing mount, which comes in a high temp version. This cures in the absence of air, so the fit has to be good. It gives a good 4000 psi bond, which is plenty for the application. Use the spray on primer. you'd have to be sure each segment is being pressed into place (a couple long hose clamps with a dowel at each segment?)

OK.... I can't resist saying at least something about Harley. I've owned a couple antique Indians, and my brother owned an antique Harley or two... and I worked on too many Harleys, the recent versions of which still seem like antiques. But even though I have a tendency to like things that fit together right, I still have thoughts of building a Harley-based cafe racer. (I suppose I could just buy a Buell, but I'm thinking of something even more elemental and simple.) (I used to race with Eric Buell, once on the same endurance team. Good guy, although we all thought he was crazy for riding Aermacchi's when he could have been riding Yamahas -- he was a Harley guy even way back then -- and we thought considering an Italian bike a Harley was a bit of a stretch.)

I have had ideas about an Egli framed harley sportster self build for many years now. Heck I even made the drawings for it. No money is great stopper of good ideas.

Not long ago I owned a 59 servicar. Again the lack of money and a nagging wife made me sell it.

That looks GREAT! That's exactly the right feel, I think. My tank might be a little longer and a little lower, with knee notches, and I'd make a two or four leading shoe drum brake -- but basically that's precisely what I have in mind.

All it takes is money.... and time. Now if I had either...

I would use a 2 part epoxy that has high temp ability. JB weld will get brittle and fall off. Not a good place for that to happen. Must be careful as no to interfere with the rotor or field during rotation.

Do you happen to have a brand name or make?

Never heard of jb weld as I am in the UK, we don't have it here I think.

try 2 ton rated epoxy, it is easy to get. Not sure about the performance on a vibration environement.It will take a while to let the epoxy mixed well and ready to go.

That is a major safety issue as a sharp jolt might dislodge a magnet and cause armature interference.

Thus there may be a hidden warranty if you look in the right place.

Magnets are inside the drum around the alternator stator. They can only move sideways and clump together. Not much chance of them falling inward as the centrifugal force would keep them out anyway. Magnets also tends to stick to the metal outer drum rather than go and stick to the copper alternator cores.

Warranty not a problem as this is a 2001 bike with 50000miles on the clock. (only breakdown I ever had was alternator burned out at 35000miles in the middle of Norway in May coming back from the superrally near Oslo. Repaired it myself in the carpark of the Oslo dealer where I bought the parts.Took just over 5 hours. Kind people did lend me their air ratchet and sockets and a ramp.)

This was a common problem on late 80's Sportsters, but was supposed to be remedied. HD builds a great bike, btw, to the 'rice is nice' poster. My Harley is infinitely better than my old Yamaha. Go talk to your local HD guy and they should be able to help you, unless you're ok with fixing it yourself. Does not pose a safety threat as some other poster mentioned, just won't charge.

You can buy 2 Yamaha's for what 1 HD [hardly drivable] costs, will the hd last 2x as long.

Feel free to pay for the mystique, the image of being a "real biker"

& don't forget your beanie [skid lid] helmet

Really? You've seen Yamahas with over 450,000 miles on them? I never have. 458,000 miles is the record so far for an Evo Big Twin. They are fine bikes, hated only by those who don't ride them. There are posers owning every brand of bike out there - we could stereotype all day. I just would like to help this person with their alternator problem, thanks.

That's great, sometimes I just can't help but take cheap shots @ HD's

there are plenty of BMW's & Goldwings w/that sort of mileage, but that's not exactly any cheaper than a HD.

If you like to ride & prefer the feet forward position, cruisers are the style for you!

I prefer something with my feet under me & closer to 400#'s

keep the rubber down & have fun

registar & continue

Hey you again,

I used to have a bMW R75/5. Great bike but had to sell it as I was a hard up student. Would not want one now though, too ponsy and upright for me. BMW lost it years ago in my mind. BMW riders are the only ones not to even look at you when riding past, except the outlaws of course, shit they are on harleys as well.

If you like your feet under you or slightly under and behind you you should try Buell. I love them but at 6'5" I am a bit too tall for that. Great handling and oodles of torque low down with very keen flipability. Stylish bike too. Looks better than those 13 a dozen crotch rockets

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=5856&l=69761&id=531244674

Photos of my winter project on facebook if you are interested.

I don't believe ya a patch holder, real biker...LMSAO

Please define

"Real Biker" for me?

Kind of you to fight my corner but it is nicer to just like the bike you like and get on with it. Garthh is a nice guy as I have read his other posts before now, he just got sidetracked a bit and lost his way. We need to show him the correct path to motorcycle heaven and show compasion and understanding.

I don't realy care if "they" slate my bike. It's mine, in my garage and that is it. I have owned all sorts and like riding. Any brand, but that is not to say that I want to own any of the others.

Even though I think that Harley's are the lowest form of two wheel vehicle, I would like to offer some help.

I think your idea with the spacers is a very good idea.

You could make them out of a light wood like pine. (pine has the ability to absorb epoxy like a sponge.)

Space your wood blocks and magnets and then pour epoxy over the entire assembly.

There are some high temp potting epoxies available and you could make a female mold out of wood and wax it well, then place your rotor assembly in the cavity and pour in the epoxy. I have done something similar with and old Brit-Bike magneto. It worked for years and a 500cc single is about the only thing in the world that shakes worse than a Harley.

Hi. I am not an expert on adhesives but I can give you some ideas how to prepare the parts for the adhesive. I agree that the surfaces must be very clean and not smooth. If you can, mask out the parts you dont want to clean and have it sandblasted. At least the sandblast the magnets if you are scared of getting sand or shot blast particles in the working parts.

I also wondered about UV glue. Dentists use it to repair teeth and it sticks to glass (which is a very smooth surface) -Just a thought.

I also came across this website... Look under engineering adhesives.

Another glue I used that sticks like hell is urethane. I dont know how it handles heat but it is flexible and the industry uses it to stick car chassis together (aluminum which is a very tough material to glue)

Good luck..

I have used JB weld on many engine components without any issue of breakage. That JB is the shiznit!

Dag onkel Sarel,

Hoe is het ermee, ik neem aan dat U dit ook kan lezen of niet? (I asume you can read this?)

Ok back to the thread,

Thank you for your hints and tips, I was going to sandblast the inner surface where the magnets used to be as the old glue is still there and I do not want to build up any more than I have to. New glue over the top of the old stuff does not make much sense either so.

I am looking at loc-tite as we use it extensively in my place of work so we have some direct access to good sound tech info.

Urethane is too soft and will not like the heat very much either. I think urethane is predominantly used for moveable applications where there must be some retaining of flex. I could be wrong but that is what I think without looking it up.

You can be assured I will return with the outcome of all of this, I tend to think that is just good form.

Regards

Or maybe you could just break it that would be good for a few 100's of posts

Before you do this, you should identify and mark each magnet.

To identify its orientation use a small compass to see which ones are north and which ones are south (opposite attracts!! In case you forgot!!) and put them back in exact the same sequence......because shape might not tell the whole story!!

I would take one of at a time and pick an identify mark for position and polarity. It may not matter, but just to be sure.....

Hello oomsarel,

"Dentists use it to repair teeth and it sticks to glass (which is a very smooth surface) -Just a thought."

But glass does bond to most of glues permanantly however smooth they are only should be grese/oil free , but metals need processing for adhesive bonding , like cleaning , brushing to roughning the area , sand blasting as you recommend .

Thank you

...and to add to your comment, glass is NOT the smooth surface many think it is! Which is why ice sticks to it so well in winter!!

Glass is exceeding rough when looked at under a microscope!

D'uh...

Everything is 'exceeding rough when looked at under a microscope!'

Those Atoms are really lumpy suckers! And those shiny blue electrons?...up real close they aint so shiny.

Del

.....I did not write "Electron" Microscope!!!! A fairly simple school one would suffice!!!!

Don't know why HD would not help ya with this problem, its good PR for them. Tho I would opt out to replace the unit so no father damage happens. I changed my Alternator a long time ago to handle the extra running lights and have had no problems and do ride even in the winter, when most rice burners are playing games on the puters. Don't forget, HD is an air cooled eng, so things getting hotter. My is the electric glide 1988, the last one I most likely will own till my death. She runs well and has way over 100k miles. Wish ya best of luck, BTW ya could visit some of the hard core HD forums in the USA for inputs.

I just happen to have a package of J-B weld on my desk. Its good to 600F for temp.

the tensile strength is 3960 psi.

I have never had a problem with J-B weld loosening as posted by another.

The alternator on a Harley is mounted to the left of the piston connector rods on the crank, inboard of the output drive gear. It will get hot. I am having a hard time understanding how they got loose unless there is a warantee problem. The Harley fly wheel is heavy enough that there should be no shock on the alternator hard enough to loosen the magnets.

Did you clean it with some of that "old" solvent you have access to, dissolving the glue?

There is something wrong if your magnets are loose at your mileage or any mileage.

? You are rebuilding an engine with only 5k on it? Why???

I just got done rebuilding my 96 (late sept) with 159k on it. It was starting to burn oil. No surprise considering how I push it and the horse power I get out of it. I am running 11:1 compression and I regularly push 7k+ RPMs. I abuse it daily. I had a slide piston in the carb develop a hole in the diaphragm resulting in running extra lean and hot. If not for this I would probably still be beating the engine with no rebuild as yet.

I too have had very good success w/JB weld

rough up the areas to be bonded, soak the parts overnight in brake cleaner [or other degreaser], spacers would be good to help you keep location on the magnets. partially assembling & wedging the gaps might be better.

I used JB weld to repair a hole in a cluch cover on a dirt bike, held oil, took the heat & vibration. rode 50 weekends including 12 three hour races, before selling it!

I am starting to have my doubts about the spacers.

The other day I was just thinking away a bit and suddenly it dawned on me that if they ever get loose again, the spacers may cause the magnets to ride over the top of the spacers and foul the stator. That would be ugly

You should just use the spacers to assure proper location while the glue dryes. You may want to partially assemble & wedge between the stator & magnets.

the 2 wheeled universe even includes bicycles, scooters, mopeds. The off road clubs i used to belong to worked closely w/the moutain bikers & equestrians we are all battling access issues. A little bit of courtesy goes a long way. Our good work was regularly obliterated by newbies who thought it was fun to scare em.

1 of the biggest threats to the powered segement is noise, 1 of my biggest beefs w/the HD crowd is the loud pipes, I love the noise but not @ 2a when I'm trying to sleep. Keep it on the track!

& then there's the idiots stunt riding on the streets......

Your post was to my mind good and interesting, especially the sentence:-

I have never had a problem with J-B weld loosening as posted by another.

Which is my experience too with this product.

So I personally feel that the other person who had problems with JB_Weld, probably did not use it correctly in some manner - mix was wrong, mix was dirty, surfaces to be glued not chemically clean/fingerprints/grease etc..

JB-Weld, when used correctly on faintly roughed up chemically (wipe with methylated spirits or similar) CLEAN surfaces and allowed to cure fully, is usually a once in a lifetime repair!!!

Araldite products are also very good and as Araldite is easier to find in Europe, I have used it even more often than JB-Weld....(Like yesterday to repair a toilet seat where the hinge screws got loose and started to drop out!!)

Checkout the following, especially testemonials:-

JB-Weld

I know zero's dont mean a lot but it does if it is behind the rest of them. It says 50 thousand miles

I am not rebuilding the engine as such, It needed new drive belt and it leaked a little from the rear rocker box so I decided to go the full hog with it and do all I wanted to do in one winter swoop.

Chrome coming of the various parts as well which is a right pain in the proverbials. I will have them de-chromed and than hard anodised in black.

If you visit the link I gave above somewhere you can follow the progress and the see the aim of it all.

I am currently checking out lock tite as we use them a lot where I work so they have direct access to some heavy guys in the technical dept. If that does not work out to something I feel happy with I might just buy some JB weld and have some of our reps from the USA bring it over.

We have used industrial araldite with 450 degree C heat resistance , just requires high curing times approx 12- 18 hrs cold curing only . this was done when replacing weak magnets on the rotor , they never ripped off after , if you want to remove the magnets just heat the casing high enough to loosen the bond

Some magnets don't like heat much, they might not be magnets afterwards!!

....probably most of the magnets loose there properties when heated extremly...just replacing to newer ones in case

Sorry, don't mean to be rubbing it in, but my very first engineering professor stated very distinctly, "One never uses adhesives for connecting 'anything' together." If it goes to the public, it either has a screw in it or some kind of fastener that cannot just let go... But I'm guessing you knew that already.

How old was your Professor? how long ago was that? maybe things are available today that your Prof never ever heard of!

I am not so young, but over the years I have made some "impossible" repairs.

Either "impossibly" difficult in some other way, or "impossibly" quick, or "impossibly" Physically.....all using relatively modern glues, a lot of them Araldite Epoxy, that I "discovered" as a teenager.....

The various epoxy resins that we have today are simply even better.....

I had my early failures when I did not get things clean enough, but I learned.

I have read nothing in this blog that makes me think that the repair is impossible for any reason, only provided the resin can handle the temperatures it will be exposed to and that the cure time is exactly made, preferably with no accelerating temperatures.

On a product that was going to consumers, you never attach something that the customer will be physically using with glue, no matter how strong. It will eventually come off.

I can see that many a repair can be performed using epoxy and have done it myself, but I knew the epoxy was there and behaved accordingly.

And yes, I do know of a few instances of things being assembled using adhesives - Green lasers us a thermal glue to hold in the non-linear optical components, but they are not accessible by the consumer, and the weight of the crystals are almost non-existent!

But to glue that magnets of a generator into place, seems ridiculous to me! How much did Harley save by not using a bracket and/or screw?! I mean, if you were the guy in the assembly plant, wouldn't it make you cringe to see them gluing in the magnets?!

But you're entirely missing the point. The whole thrill of owning a Harley comes from their being so poorly "engineered" in so many ways. (In the conventional sense they are not really engineered at all.) The fact that they break so often allows you to become intimately familiar with their guts, to slide your hands into their warm slippery innards. Hondas are the uptight girls who would never let you touch the slippery parts... Harleys are the girls wide open to the idea.

As you know, Harley riders in the US are, typically, doctors and lawyers trying to recapture their youth. Real rebels with enlarged prostates. They pretend to be sociopaths -- and it's probably good therapy, reducing malpractice insurance costs. They put on their cowboy outfits (aka biker garb) and go play. Successful HD dealers are now clothing boutiques with a motorcycle shop tacked on. (Floor space is 25% bikes, 75% other.) Engineering, reliability, performance -- all secondary to selling the clothes.

In my racing days, I rode several 24 hour road races on what was, even then, a small bike -- a 350 cc Honda. We could outhandle anything, but pass only a few bikes on the straights. The Harleys (tricked out Sportsters, typically, and the occasional flat tracker -- XR750 I think was the model -- converted to twisty use) were the only bikes we could consistently pass on the straights. In a field of 55 bikes, about 10 bikes would end up with around 2000 miles. Harleys, on average, would end up with 500. (And in the case of the XR 750's these were factory racers, competing against production bikes.)

But it's all good. I admire anyone who has the courage to be seen on a Harley.

[simulated secret handshake]

I've been wondering if you'd chime in.

I believe you've summed it up rather nicely!

You see these guys on the road with their Harleys, straight pipes, no muffling of any type. Incredibly loud, very large, very heavy, very slow, and very hard to stop if you get it going fast enough. Why don't they just get megaphones and continuously broadcast, "Look at me!!!"

I would rather be a rebel on something that offered about as good as it gets. Because if I run from a cop, at least I know I can put a lot of distance between him and me, before I hit the anti-lock brakes, stuff the bike into a hedge, and duck into the low-ground. Try that with a hog! Besides, you never get anywhere near holding a G in a turn with a Harley! An experience not to be missed!

As far as I'm concerned, they should require HDs by law to have streamers in the handlebars, little bells that go "Ching! Ching!" and playing cards in their spokes.

Actually leather streamers & ape hangers are considered "cool" in some circles, which are the only races HD dominates, if you can call having AMA tilt the playing oval in their favor.

In sportbike circles we joke about the Harley drivers and thier leather tassels and streamers...

Why do they wear them?

So they know that they are moving!!!

Self flagellation fits right in w/the S&M themed clothing!

As to the nanny state laws, I'm all for displays of skill & destruction

In the proper venue!!!!!!!!!

& I'm not talking about a bit of tire smoke

these laws come about from idiots not knowing when to be cool.[see cops]

the community of 2 wheels is releativly small, the perception you give to the 4 wheelers affects us all!

Nah I meant we

We all have our moments, on two wheels [also 4]

Here in cali it's legal to split lanes, does that make it a good idea?

that's an idea that spread from LA & the horrible traffic, stuck in grid lock going 20 isn't the same as going 120kmph & playing tag w/ 18wheelers!

for better or worse laws tend to migrate from the big cities

it's all about the situation.

would that have a

negative atmospheric coefficent

it sucks

Sometimes you need to elucidate on the parentage & sexual proclivities of such an individual

Sometimes no comment is needed.

The scooter was ideal in London....

One day job I was going up Barnett hill, (there are two lanes going up the hill). The car in front was hogging the right lane (If you are in the USA you will need to read this in a mirror ) and wouldn't pull over. I dropped back a tad, but could see him watching me in his mirror and giving me the V sign.

I could also see over the top of his car ... about 50 yards away a woman stepped onto the zebra crossing and the other cars stopped one by one....

KERRUMMMPPP.. he went straight into the back of the lot of 'em! Not fast enough to hurt anyone but enough to smash his lights and his pride!

I drove past with nary a gesture . Sometimes the arseholes do get their comeuppance!

Del

Yes... definitely worth going the extra mile -- they will thank you profusely.

I think your space idea is good as it will also provide more surface area for the glue (sorry I mean umpteen ton, ultra high temperature, 2 part epoxy adhesive )

Best of luck with it.

Del

Your pictures and smileys do the talking ...... impresive....

Pictures tell you only one thing, I AM A BIGGER GLUE SNIFFER THAN YOU!

Does not say any more or less than that.