Prototype for an Air-Compressed Engine

How far would that individual have to travel to view the engine and work on it, Guest?

There is very little left of the old proto-type, just a few parts, and the air compressor. You would have to travel to Arizona if you would like to physically help in the next proto-type, but online help is more than welcome.

I am in central Indiana, USA

What is the purpose of this engine, and how do you compensate for the energy losses caused by compressing and storing the air?

dc batteries, z-fold solar panels, and induction wind turbines.

As for storage I'm using two "T" bottles that were for holding oxygen - - - on the bottles it states they are tested at 6,000# and rated for a 4,000# working pressure. I was able to purchase a compressor from a local fire department that will go to 4,000# although I have it set at 3,500# I then used a regulator to get it to 200# and a secondary (4 gallon ) tank under the hood that is attached to a regulator that will vary with the accelerator petal to regulate it from 5# to 85#

With a 10 HP motor on the compressor and a fill time of 6 hours from dead empty at $0.075 per KWH I feel it is costing me about $3.53 to fill the two tanks and when I get the brass distribuator cap and rotor button I will do road test to see haw far I can travel on a fill.

As a test in the shop I filled a 60 gallon tank to 125# and then shut the compressor off - - - I was able to run almost an hour at an idle (5#) before running out of air. This was with my home made plastic cap and button that did not seal completely.

"the cylinder housings were made from the older style smooth aqua-fina water bottles,"

This appears to be a parody of the Negre Air Car scam. IF it is dead serious I'm really missing something.

If you have an e-mail, of fax I'll send you a drawing.

"If you have an e-mail, of fax I'll send you a drawing." wa4tjj@arrl.net witth Subject "Notscar - Drawing"

"If you have an e-mail, of fax I'll send you a drawing." wa4tjj@arrl.net witth Subject "Notscar - Drawing"

Guest: You said you would send Drawing(s) if an email address was furnished.

I am anxiously awaiting arrival of said Drawing(s) email to: wa4tjj@arrl.net with Subject "Notscar - Drawing"

as is George:you can email me at george@greensboro-sand-gravel.com

you can email me at george@greensboro-sand-gravel.com

What kind of help, exactly, are you asking for?

You don't want investors which pretty much rules out everyone almost. I don't think people here would be willing to just "help" without getting something in return so they would still be "investors" in that sense.

Never said I didn't want investors, just have been told by investors that I've contacted about this that they need to see a working proto-type.

Whatever else you do, you cannot get by without a well working prototype, connected to a good dynamometer (a motor connected to a resistive load). That will prove to you first, then to your visitors, that what you are saying is true and provable. Forget anything past that. when that is done satisfactorily, then you worry about efficiency, longevity, manufacturability, but not before.

Venture capital is useful, but you are waaay off that mark yet.

Where in AZ. are you? I'm in the Tucson area, currently working on an Auto X-Prize project,so between that, my job, home, my time is limited,but what the hell, what's one more?

When I went at this I wanted something that would be reliable and cheap.

I started with a 2.2 Dodge engine as I could get them for about $50.00 at the junk yard and I can get small cars with them in cheaply as well.

I currently am waiting for a local machine shop to finish my brass " distribuator cap and rotor button" as the plastic ones I made worked well enough to prove the concept but failed after a while. They are also making a shim so I can replace the 40 tooth cam gear with a 20 tooth gear off the crank getting the cam up to crank speed thus opening the exhaust valve every time - - - -I took the rocker arms off the intake valves so they never open.

Any one wanting to offer more advice please give me all the help you can.

I like your idea of using wind turbines to compress the air. (see US Patent 5,832,728)

Yes, an auto engine with the camshaft running at twice speed is an expedient way to build a compressed air engine.

You need a way to control the amount of air injected. If you reduce the pressure, you will waste some energy. Better would be to control the volume injected, (more for up hill, less for down hill) and, ideally, the compression ratio of the cylinder should be very high, so that a little air at high pressure will expand to approximately atmospheric pressure when it exhausts. If it is still at high pressure, exhausting, you are wasting energy. If it is below atmospheric when the exhaust valve opens... just imagine.

If you do not conserve the heat generated when the air is compressed, you will be throwing away energy. Yes, wind energy is cheap, but... If your exhaust is too cool, following vehicles will be very upset to find themselves driving in a cloud of ice particles.

The main problem is that, even at 4000 psi, you will have a problem carrying enough air in the vehicle.

Whatever, I'm sure the exercise will be interesting, and even if your range is only 10 miles, you can impress your neighbors with your zero-emissions car, and the performance, if you have enough air, should be sprightly. Take up drag racing.

Feel free to e-mail me at esbuck@gmail.com.

If you can send a sketch to rayslenn@msn,com I might be able to point you in some direction that you haven't thought of yet.

I am a Automotive Tech And used to work for Dodge Chevy man now tho.

any ways never now

Hi there,

It's never easy to get constructive comments from who is not involved in the excitement of a new idea. I have been there!

By the way please pardon my English as I am from Italy so don't bash me too hard on the head if I make spelling mistakes!

I would love to give you any input that I possibly can as for years I modified and dyno tested Racing Porsche engines. I am a fanatic for energy saving projects and we all need to do something towards a better world.

However, as our friend said in the above thread, we are up against multiple losses due to the cycle of conversions from one type of energy (electric, etc.) into the other, namely compressed air (in this case) and the trick is all in minimising as much as possible those losses thus creating an acceptable grade of efficiency.

If you wish to post any detail to my email (I very rarely find the time to come to this forum) I will take the time to study the subject carefully and send you my modest input to hopefully help improve the engine.

In any case good luck with the project and don't let any super smart..... discourage you. Any attempt is better than none!!

Mauro Andreini

info@logic28.com

I see you have tested your motor under no-load. This is not a real test. The real test is when you operate under load.

Thermodynamically, when you compress air it gets hot. Normally, this heat is lost when the compressed air bottle cools. When you open the valve to release the air the drop in pressure causes the air to cool further. Cold air does not produce the same pressure value in a cylinder as it would if the air were at least at room temperature. This is a key source of inefficiency in compressed air motors.

If you have the luxury of allowing the air in its compressed condition in the cylinder to warm up before allowing the cylinder to extract mechanical work, then this source of inefficiency would be reduced or eliminated. But what kind of engine could run on this basis?

Compressed air engines may be interesting to work-on but I do not see them as a solution to the motive power requirements of mankind.

"Thermodynamically, when you compress air it gets hot. Normally, this heat is lost when the compressed air bottle cools. When you open the valve to release the air the drop in pressure causes the air to cool further. Cold air does not produce the same pressure value in a cylinder as it would if the air were at least at room temperature. This is a key source of inefficiency in compressed air motors."

There is a simple solution to the problem, and it was demonstrated in Germany in 1930 with a diesel-pneumatic railway locomotive which was more efficient than a diesel-electric. You cool the compressor by spraying water in the air intake. The exhaust of the compressor is a mixture of air and steam. That goes to a steam engine; in the German case it was conventional steam locomotive chasis, minus the boiler. As the air expands, it cools and the steam condenses, reheating the air with the latent heat of vaporization. The exhaust of the engine (expander) is the same as the input to the compressor, ambient temperature air and droplets of water (which, being distilled water, have some value if you started with dirty water). Since the whole thing is a thermodynamically reversible process, if well insulated, the efficiency is very high. If you choose to store the air-steam mixture (called "wet compressed air", WCA, in US pateent number 5,832,728), the air tanks need to be insulated, no big deal.

The air car entry for the auto x-prize cannot win because, even if they can carry sufficient air to achieve the required range, they cannot compress the air efficiently enough to get 100 miles per gallon "gasoline equivalent", something like 37 kWhr of electrical input. Using WCA, it's possible.

For those interested in off-grid living, on an island or mountain top or deep in the jungle, use a wind turbine to make WCA and use the stored WCA for your various energy needs (refrigeration, electricity generation, etc.). Filter the droplets from the exhaust, and you have free drinking water. You can store about a megawatt-hr in a volume similar to a bus, which may be as simple as a hole in the ground or a bladder under water.

Hi esbuck:

I would welcome your input to a discussion on steam power

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/18674/Pellet-Powered-Tranportation-conversion

I have a similar problem with an idea, no money, no machine shop and two left thumbs. I wish you luck and will follow the discussion.

Yes , I agree with the idea that the investors will not be interested until you get a prototype working. This I know from experience, since I can not afford to take time away from paying bills so that I can finish my current invention.

However I encourage you to keep on with this...because when you succeed, then you will not need the Venture capitalists. (Send it to Asia, and do it youself then. ) We have already done that and you can too!!

Me , I am interested in the ability of using wind generators to charge compressed air tanks, then run air engines for energy.

Keep going man!!!

Thanks for your input. Asia?

Yes Asia...that is if you plan to make it commercial. The China corporations will fight over each other to sign you up. Careful here also...there are scams there too. But if it is a manufactured item that can be "offshored"...then do what all the big corporations are doing...send it there for manufacture...Example, Boeing will send design and build, airplane work to there ...and India too. We in the West, have too high a labour charge...and we now essentially live in a service based economy. (Take a look at all your immediate family around you...what is the percentage of relations working in manufacturing?). Also the stuff coming out of China these days isn't so bad....a quality engineer buyer (relation) says that the stuff coming from there is not rubbish or cheap now-a-days, but is "acceptable".

Footnote: As a Design Engineer of 31 years Aerospace, Automotive and Engine design, I am retraining to trade curencies as a job, since my projects are increasingly dissappearing off to Asia. Remember if it can be "offshored" or "Internetted" out , then it's gonna go. Unfortunately it only took one or two corporations to start this "Greed" trend, and soon the other corporations had to follow suit in order to remain competitive. And Very very sadly, little Billy, skilled machine operator of 30 years plus working for one company finds himself on the junk heap (jobwise)...no future...and little hope is the one who comes off worst!!! And ends up either having to retrain for another profession or flips hamburgers to push his kids through college.

Shame on the beancounters that in the name of greed to satisfy profits and shareholders, find it inconvenient and uneconomical to keep the skilled guys who were the corporations "assets". And after you have given Billy's job and skills to Asia, the Asians will then tell you beancounters to kindly "go away" as they themsleves will find you inconvenient too.!!

What goes around, comes around.

Back to the original question Asia?...yes don't worry about sending it there now..it is now accepted that if you want an economically viable product for the market it will entail being manufactured overseas, thanks again to the current trend already established by the bean counters.

I think the time is right for using "Made In The USA" as a marketing tool again. It would mainly apply to products going to the end use consumer, a company buying tools, supplies,etc. have the "bottom-line " factor to consider and will usually go cheapest with acceptable quailty.

Good luck in the Forex market, but beware, an increase in rectal diameter is the most likely outcome when one follows the Next Big Thing (ref Easy Money Mortgages and the success they happen to be having now).

But the one good side is, I'm looking to buy several new properties, Cheap >:). The only thing I don't think should happen is Government should not bail anyone out. I didn't offer to pay for their stupidity, and I won't.

As an aside...does anyone know what energy could be gained from the decomposition of a body? I can think of at least 100 bodies that wouldn't be missed (US Senate)

The energy stored in a tank is proportional to the pressure times volume moved thru the engine. BUT, when you drop the pressure in regulators, you lose energy proportionally to the ratio of original to "fed to the engine" pressure.

Think about it: all the energy stored, but no volume moved = Zero work.

All the volume moved, but no pressure behind = Zero work.

The optimum is somewhere halfway inbetween: best conservation of the pressure (fed to the motor) and best volume (depending on the gas pedal).

So you have choices. If you take an industrial pneumatic motor tolerating variable input pressure, you are fine. If you take a conventional (constant volume per revolution) car engine, you will take serious efficiency hits. Losing power on the top by pressure regulators will wipe you out efficiency vise.

You are right now in the concept exploration and prototypes building phase. Go ahead, find out for yourself in quick, cheap and dirty experiments, do you dyno testing, no matter how crude. Then you will know quite bit more. You will be out of considerable time, but wont bankrupt the family budget. Bon voyage!

I'd like to know more. I doubt the French company will succeed with 120-150 miles, as that implies about 40-50 kW-hrs minimum storage of compressed air, and that's assuming a very high efficiency. You will have the same problem, if you are planning to use the engine in a vehicle. If you know how to get between 600-1000 miles before refueling, you have the auto xprize in the bag, and probably a Nobel prize as well. Tell us more.

"Guest:" You offered to send drawing to email addresses, if furnished.

See Post #24 for two email addresses. Still no drawings.

Do you have a design that works or not? ? ?