Hydrogen vapour pressure above 20C

Hello DaS,

I'm more curious than knowledgeable about hydrogen and bicycles. Are you saying you have liquid hydrogen at 20C and you're somehow using that to make a bicycle airborne? If so, that's neat! Do you have any pictures or diagrams, or is there a link to another site?

Thanks

Hello TYP45,

Sorry I was trying to illustrate the difficulties one encounters when making something impossible happen. Back in Wrights day man couldnt fly.

My work is with base load power generation, and if correct it will do so without need of other than air temperature.

Hydrogen chilled to below air temperature expands at air temperature and that force between the different temperatures is used to drive the water through the recycling hydro turbine.

Sorry I was trying to illustrate the difficulties one encounters when making something impossible happen. Back in Wrights day man couldnt fly.

References to the Wright brothers are often made to suggest that they made something considered impossible happen. Nothing could be further from the truth, at least regarding educated people of the day. Only people uneducated in the subject matter thought powered flight impossible, with one obvious reason being that it had already been demonstrated before the Wright brothers flew.

The Wright brothers were anything but a couple of uneducated bicycle makers venturing into the unknown without benefit of prior history in flight. They were skilled scientists who constructed and used their own wind tunnel in hundreds of experiments. This post (and its follow up posts, #19 and #20) should help acquaint you with the history of flight.

The Wright brothers are often brought up in discussions of perpetual motion machines and other machines in which the claimed energy output is greater than the energy input. To suggest that the Wright brothers were hair-brained nitwits working only on faith in an idea, ignoring the science of the day (they did, after all, refer to texts on aerodynamics in their work) does both them and science a disservice.

Hello TVP45,

Sorry forgot to mention (roos now in the top paddock) full schematics are available along with all assistance.

Try as I might I cannot paste here, any sugestions on how to move from my documents to this format greately appreciated.

I being an invalid pensioner can take no further so am making world available for free as I wish to lower Carbon emissions and leave my sons a world better for my stay rather than harmed.

Cheers Peter

Hi, DaS Energy!

I save my images as .jpeg extensions with a name in "My Pictures" in the "My Documents" section of the word program I use. Then I click on the little green icon at the top of the message dialogue box and browse to my desired image. When I locate it, I acknowledge that it's the image I'm looking for and enter it. I haven't had any problems with this fairly straighforward method.

Do you hunt the roos in season?

Mark

Thank you Mark,

I have wriiten down what you said and shall do!

It may seem strange but there is no closed season on Roo's as they have long been considered a pest, but now they are being farmed for their high quality meat.

Exports are now in place and over here it sells for less than Beef, tastes better than beef, is worm and disease free.

Should you see some in your shop grab it and cook like its a peice of eye fillet.

Thanks again for your help Cobber.

Cheers

Peter

Hello again Mark,

Thank you for your previous tip. Unfourtunately no green icon comes up. All the program in this old computer will do is send to Mail Recipient.

God what I would give for an up to date computer. Lifes rough at the bottom.

Cheers

Peter

Hi, DaS Energy!

The "green icon" I mentioned is the little camera-looking icon in the top line of the CR4 "your message" dialogue box where you messaged me back just now. Click on it and use the Browse function to find the .jpeg picture you want to include. It will automatically paste the picture into your blog.

___________________________________

Don't have much of a chance to get roo meat in Canada. Perhaps we should set up some kind of a shipping arrangement. Sell it here at the specialty food shops and wild game restaurants. We already handle New Zeland Spring Lamb in all our major grocery stores.

Mark

Wow, thank you Mark,

Now all I have to remember is to put the message first then the image.

Cheers

Peter

Well Done DaS.

You will be pasting like a SparkStation in no time.

You forgot to tell MarkTheHandyman that roo meat is also has a lower cholesterols than beef.

This one is Red Kangaroo, a boomer (Male).

BAB

Thank you BlueAussieBoy.

Its great to receive encouragement.

For so long I've felt like a bicycle builder telling Boeing I've got a protype for an Airbus.

Spot on about lower cholesterols in Roo meat. Me beleives my failure to pass that information onto Mark The Handyman is a system of the Roo's now grazing in me top paddock.

Cheers

Peter

How can anyone eat something that looks that cute? At least cows and pigs aren't so darn cute. The only thing we eat that are so cute are the big red dogs with antlers.

Russ what about cute fluffy little lambikins frollicking round the paddock in the bright sunshine blissfully unaware its throat is about to be cut.

Cheers

Peter

looks like a petpetual motion machine to me or an ORC.

Hello Vincini,

The refridgeration action causes the working gas temperature to be below the heater temperature. When the heater temperature is at air temperature the incoming gas is at below air temperature.

Telling people it works at air temperature is a bit like a bicycle builder telling others he could fly when the world knew it was impossible.

Cheers

Peter

Hi, DaS Energy:

I had a beautiful response worked out about the nature of this beastie of yours in which I pointed out, amongst other things, that of course there's an injection of external energy required to keep the refrigeration system on the go...otherwise we might fall into the trap of it looking like a perpetual motion machine. But there are so many other novel permutations and potential benefits of this kind of work that this is a very minor point.

If I can resurrect the lost response --it just slipped away, thanks to some glitch or other I sometimes experience in these responses-- I'll send it along.

But for now, I'll just add that in my opinion your engine is neither an i.c. engine nor necessarily an e.c. engine (although it can be made to act like one); and it's nothing like a Sterling engine at all.

I've labelled it an e.f. (external force) engine because it works using any external source of additional power in a very minimal way to supplement the (very low efficiency) refrigeration process; and this minor supplimental 'force' can be supplied by any source including non-combustive ones like cold fusion and kinetic generators as well as green ones like aluminum/gallium/water and methane-sourced i.c. engines having scoured exhausts.

There are still a few glitches to iron out, such as finding a fluid that will work with zero-to-minor cavitation and minimizing the polluting effect of the gas on the liquid and work wear on the parts as well as developing a shaft to take the power off the turbine.

And I encourage you to go for a patent. A provisional patent granted in any country that gives them will allow you a year to develop the final application while still remaining protected. Your publishing in here gives you dated evidence of originality.

In setting up such a system, I would work toward triple redundancy so one machine would be up and running, another down for maintenance, and a third on standby.

Mark

Hello Mark,

Thank you for the wonderfull encouragement

Without offence I would like to point out it is already working model using Co2 which when heated from +14c to +28c its procudes 30 bar of working pressure.

The first stage of cooling occurs when the the ball (F) drops opening the small orifice to the sealed tank above the turbine. As gas will always rise to the top of water it does so and in doing forces the water out and back down into the DaS Valve, the water now being driven back into fill the DaS Valve forces all the gas up the orifice that the floating ball seals off when the DaS Valve is full of water.

As the gas in the top tank is now cooler than the gas coming out of the heater the heater provides enough energy to keep the system going to cause the second stage refridgeration

The second stage of cooling occurs with the next inflush of water taking the space of the gas in the tank forcing the gas through a small orifice again into an exapansion chamber as found in your electric fridge.

Turbulance is not a problem as the only place such occurs is in the tank above the turbine.

Both Francis and Kaplan turbines have a built in shaft so a generator is dircectly attachable as seen in hydro power generation.

You are correct that some cavitation can take place within the Francis or Kaplan turbine but his is not a problen as both these type of hydro turbine are used at hydro power generation and the water supplying them is also infused with more gasses than just Co2.

I have had the development on Provisional Patent for some years but now have waived all such right as every Web contactable Government.University and Generator maker dont want a bar of it.

I think that is because of the commercial upset it will cause if commercialised, like the stink the Horsebreeder kicked up against the combustion engine, the poo pooing by ship owners toward a bicycle builder making an aeroplane so man could fly.

Also those persons who could commercialise have told me they need agents to market and these agents have been informed of a choice that if they stock the DaS Turbine generator that is the only one they will stock and all other form of engine shall be witheld from them.

As I am a invalid pensioner of no means I cannot personaly commercialise it but am willing to fully assist any who will.

Its now been eight years of development and like Teslar my health cant take it any more.

Cheers

Peter

Hydrogen at 20°C doesn't have a vapour pressure as such, as 20°C is well above the critical temperature. It obeys the ideal gas laws as close as you're likely to need.

Codey

you outh to make a diagram of this one! It sounds like he (you?) want to heat H2 making it expand to push a piston with a fluid on the other side. Then cool the H2 to let it come back and start the cycle over.

Hello Vicini,

You are correct, but wait theres more, the piston is lquid and the crankshaft is a hydro turbine.

The water in a cylinder is driven down and then up replicating a piston.

The piston action drives water through a hydro turbine into above receiver tank.

The hot Hydrogen exhausts into the receiver tank speeding the piston cylinder refill.

Thw water entering the receiver tank compresses the Hydrogen through a refirdgeration process.

The cool gas is heated causing it to expand and drive the water piston.

There are no mechanical or electric part used with the exception of one way valve.

its a modified sterling engine, what is the heat and cooling source

Hello Vincini,

There is no Stirling engine that looks like or acts like a DaS Turbine.

Air temperature or hotter is sufficient heat source. The Hydrogen cools by refridgeration procress, in which the mechanical compressor is replaced by the rise and fall of water. This occuring as natural part of water exiting and entering the water container servicing the recycling hydro turbine.

When you get it working.....I and future generations will be in your debt....

Thank you flegelo. I have a working model using compressed air. However being an invalid pensioner money has run out preventing final development. Am happy for the design to go world wide for free. I am hoping someone may know how to copy from my documents Xp professional to this format, or know of so other means whereby I can post the schmematics.

Cheers Peter

I have seen Mobi and Andy from Germany add all kinds of stuff. Look them up and ask them. I have never tried, sorry.

Love your idea. Hope it works out or you win the lottery.

Hello Russ in Minnesota.

Thank you for your advice. Could you supply a contact point for Mobi and Andy.

Cheers Peter

Set up a FTP site, send out the site for people to download the files.

Hello guest thank you for your help,

I am completely computer illiterate, whats an FTP site.

Cheers Peter.

Hello Cr4 Crew,

New comment is not coming up but instead reverting to start!

Cheers Peter, DaS Energy

I'm getting the idea that you're attempting to use the hydrogen as a working fluid in an attempt to capture energy from changes in atmospheric temperature???

Heat transfer to the gas is going to be a big problem.

That and a lot of infrastructure for small output.

You are aware that you are not going to liquify hydrogen at 20 C. ??

When you speak of 'vapor pressure', are you concerned with solubility of hydrogen in the water??

Hello guest,

Not quite, the turbine is driven by water which itself comes under pressure from the choosen gas that is expanding from the heat input.

The pressure difference of a gas between a low and high temperature is the drive pressure.

When a gas pressure is applied to water the water becomes of the exact same pressure as the ags.

You are the first to pick that the turbine will operate at air temperature, this is because the turbine in operation chills the gas to a lower temperature than the temperature at the gas heater.

Heat transfer is not a problem as the chilled gas bubbles up through warm water (held in the gas heater) taking on heat as it does so.

There is very little infrastructure, as the turbine exit water empties into a sealed tank thereby acting as a compressor like that in an elelectric fridge.

The hydrogen or other gasses have no need of liquification unless extrem drive pressures are wanted.

I have been told by an engineer but wish to confirm that the pressure difference of Hydrogen between 20C and 70c is 700 Bar and I am seeking to confirm that.

Cheers

Peter

I have been told by an engineer but wish to confirm that the pressure difference of Hydrogen between 20C and 70c is 700 Bar and I am seeking to confirm that.

Codemaster's recommendation to use the ideal gas law is correct. If the amount of gas moles and volume is constant then the pressure ratio will be the ratio of absolute temperatures. That is, 343.15/293.15 = 1.17056. So if your pressure at 20C is 4104 bar, then you'll get your engineer's 700 bar delta. Good luck with that.

Thank you N&P,

I am most graitful for your help. I would not like to be in the room when a weld broke at those pressures.

I have publicly posted out the schematics of a novel turbine I have produced into working order so all may benefit without fee.

I know little of physics or engineering so I have been reliant upon make and see to get the invention to its present stage.

Should you know of a gas that increases its pressure by a large amount within a temperature range anywhere between 5C and 100c and still be maintainable within a steel cylinder I would be most graitful to receive such.

Cheers

Peter

Peter,

All gases will behave approximately the same, and will closely approximate the Ideal Gas Law. The pressure will rise by a factor of 373/278. So any gas will have a pressure increase of about 34% over this temperature range.

The exception would be liquefied gases. If the critical temperature of the liquefied gas is in your working range of 5-100C, it will undergo a huge pressure increase when the critical temperature is reached. You would probably want to avoid this situation.

If the critical temperature is above 100C, liquefied gases would still have a large advantage, if you are just looking for a maximum pressure increase. To take a simple example, water will have a vapor pressure of 0.0015 atmospheres at 5C, and 1.0 atmospheres at 100C, an increase of 667X (66,667%)!

Let me know if I can provide more information. I am not really clear in what you are trying to do.

Tad

Hello Tadd,

A thousand thank you's,

I have enclosed my email dasenergy@bigpond.com.au so I can send full schematics,

Im not real good at the communication thing, but here goes'

The world is captive of the Coal fired Steam turbine producing so much Carbon it is hurting my sons and furure grandchildren.

Why are we so stupid that we take water and burn tonnes of coal or other Carbon fuel to turn water into a gas rather than using an existing gas in the first place.

So what I did was made a simple valve using a tennis ball, some wet cement and a peice of pipe.

To this I attached a Hydro turbine, with a water receptor on top to take the turbine discharge water and feed back into the pipe which I now call the Das Valve.

When a gas pressure is applied to water the becomes of exact same pressure as the applied gas, this being proven using an air compressor.

Next trick was to put cool gas above the water and heat the the gas so it expanded pushing the water out the Das valve.

The gas I tested with being CO2.

Next trick was recooling the gas after it had done its work, this I did by sealing the water tank above the Hydro turbine so that as the turbine discharge water came in it acted like a compresssor and sqeezed the CO2 through a little hole into an expansion chamber, aping that found in your electric fridge.

(Because the working action chills the gas below the Heater temperature any air temperature is enough to cause gas expnasion driving the hydro turbine)

The chilled gas then flows by convection down into a heater which has a pipe going up into the DaS Valve.

As gas always rises to atop water this made it easy to put gas pressure into the DaS valve.

Whoala a fully recycling hydro turbine driven by recycling gas pressure.

Its only parts being a tennis ball (because it floats) two one way valves and a hydro turbine.

No other parts are used, attached, or required.

A Francis turbine for high pressure low water flow, or a Kaplan turbine for low pressure high water flow. Both type of turbine being rated 92% efficient.

Water is used for temperatures between 0c and 100c and Ionic flluid for temperatures below 0c and above 100c.

A Hitachi 350 megawatt steam turbine requires 550C of heat to produce 160 Bar of pressure.

9 Bar pressure of water flowing at 1 litre per second produces 720 watts of electricity, each doubling of either pressure or water flow doubles the wattage output.

So if I put a gas at 1 Bar pressure into the Heater I can increase the Bar pressure coming out of the Heater and into the DaS Valve.

As Hydrogen gas is most expansive for least heat it appears to be the best gas for use?

I always thought the first rule of Engineering was to keep it simple, and cant understand why something so simple has not been done before.

Cheers Peter

hydrogen at 1 bar and 20C when heated in a confined vessel to 70C, the ending pressure will be 1.17 bar. Which will raise water, maybe 1.75 meters. To get 700 bar at 70C, you'd need to start at almost 600 bar.

Thank you Vincini,

Your answer is one that I can fully understand, no offence to all the others that have answered my question.

I have been barking entirely up the wrong tree in thinking that Hydrogen would deliver greater pressure at temperatures above 0c.

I have been working with Co2 at temperature 280K to 300k which according to Web pressure chart is a 30 Bar increase in pressure, or the equivalent to a 300 meter head.

Another Web site states that a 1 meter flow per second at 300 meter head delivers 5000 Kw.

I hope my work shall be of use to you or another, and my assistance goes without charge to you or any other.

My thanks again.

Cheers

Peter

Hello DaS

Another Web site states that a 1 meter flow per second at 300 meter head delivers 5000 Kw.

What website is that? 1 m³/s water x 300 m = 3000 kW fluid power. If it's a pump, input power is higher, if it's a turbine, output power is lower, due to efficiency.

If it's a turbine on compressible fluid, and flow measured at inlet conditions, power could be higher, but need more details, including outlet conditions.

Cheers......Codey

Hello Codemaster,

CanRen , Natural Resources Canada is the Web site

Please note only water ever passes through the hydro turbine.

All gas escapes out the DaS Valve before reaching the turbine.

Both the Francis and Kaplan turbines are rated at 92% efficient, and no pumps are involved, is you discount the DaS Valve is actualy a possitive action pump with no moving parts.

Cheers

Peter

Hello Codey,

Sorry about the delay in reply.

The web site you ask for is http://zebu.uorgen.edu. One litre per second at 9 Bar is 720 watts. 30 divided 9 = 3.3333 x 720 = 2,400 watts.

A one cubic meter water flow per second at 30 Bar is 2,400,000 Kw.

The DaS Valve is in fact a positive action pump, 30 Bar discharge pressure , conected directly to a Francis hydro turbine.

Intake pressure at the Francis turbine is 30 Bar and the discharge pressure is ? Bar.

-----------------------------

The DaS Valve discharge water first having passed through the turbine now rests in sealed tank above the Das Valve (pump) and is directly conected to DaS Valve inflow.

The 30 Bar gas pressure within the DaS Valve is exhausted from underneath the water in the sealed tank.

The gas rising to the surface of the water places a 30 Bar downward pressure on the water refilling the Das Valve.

The water on high being forced into the below DaS Valve forces the gas inside out and up into the above sealed tank.

Cheers

Peter

Hello DaS

Best of luck with your invention.

I was giving fluid power (volume flow in m³/s x ΔP in Pa = power in watt), but the calculation you quote is a turbine output power assuming 80% efficiency. The Canren chart also looks like about 80% for the power lines (not easy to tell accurately as it's a log scale). 80% seems a bit arbitrary, specially as it says efficiency varies a fair bit between the different turbine types.

1 m³/s at 30 bar and 80% = 2400 kW (not 2400000)

Also, on the chart, 1 m³/s at 300m shows ~ 2400 kW (intersection is well below the 5000 kW line)

Cheers....Codey

Hi Codey,

I cant dispute any of your figures. The figures I give are based upon Euorgen (Web) hydro flow rates which quote "1 Litre per second flow at 9 bar pressure creates 2400 watts". The Francis and Kaplan hydro turbines are both rated at 92% efficiency. I dont have a recorded efficiency for the DaS Valve yet.

Professor Klause Bremhurst, Head of Mechanical Engineering Qld University Australia, upon inspection cited he would need six months, and six of his best pupils to record the exact physics of why it works, plus a fee of $200,000.00.

Cheers

Peter

DaS,

"Professor Klause Bremhurst, Head of Mechanical Engineering Qld University Australia"

That sounds like Prof's in the US. For money they will study anything including their mothers underwear size. What ever happened to the 'Quest for knowledge' ethics, etc?? If money isn't involved it does not happen.

Hello Russ,

My sentiments entirely.

However I note, at least Professor Klause was willing to do it.

Neither past nor current Federal Government, nor Queensland State Government want to know about it. They dont even want it for free, no catches.

For all those years I blindly followed their make a working model and get back to us.

I think it has to do with with elected Politicians receiving enormous donations from Coal Companies and the majority of Coal is burnt for creating electricity.

The DaS Turbine operates equaly as well on Steam as any other gas, but has the added advantage of doing away with all the maintenance of a Steam turbine, which in turn means less Coal burnt, and Australia is the Worlds largest Coal exporter.

Cheers,

Peter

I have been working with Co2 at temperature 280K to 300k which according to Web pressure chart is a 30 Bar increase in pressure, or the equivalent to a 300 meter head.

The pressure of a gas varies directly with the ratio of absolute temperatures. So increasing the temperature from 280K to 300K would be expected to increase the pressure by less than 10%, to roughly 1.1 Bar, which is not remotely close to 30 Bar.

You might be able to better advance your cause with a drawing that represents your device physically, and perhaps a second drawing that represents it schematically, using standard schematic symbols.

I believe in one of your posts you mentioned R744. I wonder if you are mistaking the vapor pressure of CO2 liquid for the change in gas pressure caused by the slight change in temperature you quote. If you are using R744, then your device would need a method for returning the CO2 to a liquid state, which requires considerable energy.

A step by step description of your device, to go along with the physical drawing and schematic, would be essential. You might also want to work on terminology a little. You ask "will 2400 watts per second heater maintain a +27c pool of water." Watts (a measure of power) is a rate of doing work. Via work-energy equivalence, it is a rate of consuming energy. So the term "watts per second" is hard to interpret. It is a bit like saying miles per hour per hour, which implies an acceleration, but I don't think that is what you have in mind.

A 2400 Watt engine running for one second, 100 seconds, or all day is still a 2400 Watt engine.

What is the input power? What is the output power?

Hello Ken,

Thank you for your help,

I am but an uneducated back yard inventor relying upon Web sites to obtain engineering figures.

The pressure-temperature chart for Co2 I relied upon is the one from Wilkepedia.

I mention R-744 as it is Co2 used as a refridgerant.

I have posted a full working description as far as I can take it in earlier reply to Mark the Handiman.

Sorry I dont know the correct terminology when asking a question.

Corrected terminology is generator output of 2400 watts. (not per second)

My considerations being one litre of water per second would need to be heated by 20c (10c to 30c) to retian the heating of one litre per second of Co2 vapour.

Cheers

Peter

A few principles to remember:

1. The best heat engines are about 50% efficient. Most are less efficient than that.

2. The output power of any heat engine will be less than the input power, with output = input x efficiency.

3. Therefore, if your engine outputs 2400 watts, then the input will need to be on the order of 4800 watts, if your design were extraordinarily efficient. That 4800 watts must come from somewhere: gasoline, electricity, wood, etc.

4. Typically, the fewer conversions involved the better, so it would be better to move a turbine with a hot gas than to move water with a hot gas, and move the turbine with water.

Good luck with your endeavors.

Hello Ken,

I dont dispute your figures. However the unique novelness of the DaS Valve dosn't apply to the aquation you cite.

Example a heater heated to 28c by air temperature of 28c causes the heaters internal Co2 gas temperature 14c to rise by 14c. The 28c Co2 after leaving the DaS Valve is chilled back down to 14c by the twin refridgeration actions brought on by the gas to water reaction without the need of extra energy input.

As gas is harder to heat than water, the 14c Co2 is micro bubbled up through the water maintaining 28c.

I hope this may help explain a little better the workings as set out in blog 24.

Cheers

Peter

In post 41 you say: Without offence I would like to point out it is already working model using Co2 which when heated from +14c to +28c its procudes 30 bar of working pressure.

This is not remotely close to being true, as I and others have pointed out. The "working pressure" with these figures (which are different than the 280 and 300 figures you've quoted elsewhere) would be about 301/287 x 1 bar = 1.05 bar. Gauge pressure would be .05 bar, less than required to blow up a typical balloon.

In your post below re the university prof, are you saying that you demonstrated a working model, producing 2400 watts output with essentially no input energy, and that he was baffled, and that it would take great study by him and students to figure out how the thing worked?

Perhaps you have a video of that working model, which, as you must realize, would be historic.

You seem to have skirted the issue of energy out and energy in, which is the single salient issue. You are claiming, I think, to have developed a heat engine, the output of which is 2400 watts. What is the input in watts?

What do you believe to be "the unique novelness of the DaS Valve"? Your picture and description makes it look and sound like a simple check valve with a buoyant check ball. These have been around for a great many years. What is the uniquely novel feature?

But let's keep it simple. First answer this simple question: For 2400 watts output, what is the input energy?

Hello Ken,

Keeping it simple, it was Einstein who first said the problem with being a genius is your surrounded by mediocre minds.

The Professor just like hopefully the professors you rely upon in book form wanted to assertain the exact physics and engineerings that make the DaS Valve work

Despite you and your freinds protests the DaS Valve- DaS Generator works, bit like the Bumble Bee refusing not to fly just because NASA's aerodynamics say it cant, velocity in a venturi increases despite logic applying the opposite, and Co2 retaining a constant pressure no matter how low the tank is.

The energy in for 2400 watts out, is 30 degree Celsius constant air or other medium surrounding the heater.

Cheers

Peter

All your other questions have previusly been answered in reply to others

Hi Peter,

You may have to keep it simpler for me.

You have said people won't act on your idea even when offered freely. Perhaps they are looking for straightforward answers to simple questions.

Here is an analogy to help you. I have an engine. My engine requires an input energy of 4000 watt hours to produce an output energy of 1000 watt hours.

The statement I am looking for from you is: My device requires an input energy of ______ watt hours to produce an output energy of 2400 watt hours.

If you prefer to think in terms of power, that is fine. In that case, you could say: My devices requires ______ watts of input power to produce a 2400 watt output.

All I need is a number for the blank... nothing else.

Obviously, "30 degree Celsius constant air or other medium surrounding the heater" does not define an amount of energy. 10 kg of air at a particular temperature has a different heat value than 100 kg of air. If your device extracts energy from the room air, (although I see nothing in your diagram to indicate that it does) then the room will become cooler. If you knew the mass of air in the room, and the rate at which is becomes cooler, then you would know the input power, right?

So, just fill in the blank.

Thanks, Ken

Hello Ken,

Sorry I cant be more helpful, I'm not an engineer and have very limited schooling and don't know the answers in engineering terminology. All I can do is pass on how I see things.

I have taken our work to many an engineer who whilst admiring our work did not have the fianances to put into researching text book physics and engineerings,

Hence our going public in order that another may prophit from our work to date.

Neither State nor Federal Government shall provide any funding for or do any research work on the DaS Turbine despite them also along with all others being provided the development for free along with further assistance.

More than happy to go into full descriptive of how we got our working model to work.

Firstly two peices of 50mm pipe are cut, one at 100mm longer length than the other.

These are then verticaly welded side by side into a horizontal length of 50mm pipe.

A one way (flap) valve is then attached to each end so water can only flow one way.

Next a mixture of finest sand and cement are mixed and put into a mould made from 50mm pvc pipe.

Whilst a the cement is wet a squash ball is forced halve way into the wet cement, this provides a housing for the floating ball to sit into.

When the cement is dry remove the surrounding pvc and the mould will fit into the longest welded pipe and is plated over to keep mould in place.

A 12mm hole is then drilled dead centre through the plate and mould.

A hole 15mm or larger is then drilled through the side of the shortest pipe, up close to the top. This is repeated a in the longer pipe but at point higher than in the short pipe but lower down than when the squash ball is free from the mould.

A pipe is then inserted into the short and long pipe hole, with enough loop to carry just below the horizontal pipe. You may have to experiment to get the loop length just right. too long and the pipe wont clear itself and to short the exhaust shall go off prematurely, perfect is timed just when the float (squash ball drops).

Next a hydro (Francis) turbine is attached directly to the horizontal pipe.

The turbine intake is at the bottom and discharge at the top.

Next attached a sealed container just large enough to contain the same volume of water as in the shortest pipe.

The container then has a pipe attached to its bottom and the intake end of the shortest pipe.

Next a pipe any size has a plate welded over one end and a tiny size hole drilled dead centre in it (like found in refridgerators) the tiny hole end of the pipe is then welded over a hole drilled in the container and loope around the outside and inserted into the bottom of the DaS Valve shortest pipe.

Our first time we used compressed air by breaking into the line, next we took to lighting an isolated fire under the pipe to create steam, but instead of having the turbine attached we attached a 25mm flexible pipe and went further and further uphill in order to see what head the possitive action water pump (DaS Valve) would operate to, and disovered the whole thing blew up before it would stop pumping water, We trust stronger pipe and better welding will yeild greater head than 100ft.

Then we converted to CO2 taken direct from the bottle untill the DaS Valve exhaust opended and then shut off the tank and removed.

At 30c air temperature the Das Turbine kept operating.

Next we waited till air temperature was 40c and the DaS Turbine spun faster.

Not being complete idiots we did nothing when the air temperature reached 50c.

We were helped in that decision by watching the water and steam belching out of the Solar water heater.

Later having abandoned the idea some would want he DaS Turbine we moved on to the DaS Valve Francis turbine combustion engine.

This retains all the same workings as the DaS Turbine but includes an air pump which moves up and down with the water movement.

Please note the fins attached to the pump do not contact the cylinder walls.

The combustion forces are joined with flash steam forces caused by the choosen fuel combustion. Alternatively to water Ionic liquid may be used if steam is not wanted.

It will cease operating if taken too far from vertical as the floating ball will not seat.

Design only at this stage but not wanted by engine makers.

Having lived and breathed 24/7 365 these developments for eight straight years my health is gone, and me nearly with it.

But somehow someone has got to bring a stop to Global Warming and sure as shitting it will not be Coal Companies nor Piston Engine makers.

Cheers

Peter

das,

i am just a country boy that is pretty sharp myself. people been telling me its impossible for years too. i believe your hard work has been useful to me as well as others. im 33 years old and have no engineering degree and minimal college hours but have been intriuged by your apperatus. simple is right. you have it figured out and i have been attempting to duplicate your setup on a small scale. thanks for all the knowlege, some of the sharpest people i ever met were simply laymen that just tried comman sense to remedy a problem. keep in touch, some of us ARE listening to comman sense.

Thank you Guest, Your support and that of others is most appreciated by me.

I too am a country boy, and apply simple logic to any problem, a methodoligy that now seems lost in today's complex world of engineering and technology.

Another example, the silent Grenade thrower invented by the North Vietnamese, lots of rubber bands joined together and a three man pull back, most effective.

Cheers

Peter

mr. fry,

i believe what das is saying is that he needs a constant temp surounding the heater box of his apperatus, thereby ambient air temp alone would power the thing. that being said the rest of the machine would benefit by being isolated to a cooler environment to achieve more eficiency.

i belive his devise WORKS although it is hard to calculate input energy when the ambient air temp may vari by where in the world you happened to conduct the test.[the artic circle would be harder to achieve 30 degrees c but it is regular air temp in many other places.

so please keep an open mind when speaking with people of less education than you, they may be more intelligent than you. respect please.

Das Energy,

Vapor pressure is the pressure generated above a liquid in a closed container, at a given temperature. Hydrogen has a critical temperature of -240 C, which means that it does not exist as a liquid above this temperature, regardless of how much it is pressurized.

So, "Hydrogen vapour pressure above 20C" has no meaning.

Tad

Hello Tad,

Sorry to confuse with my wording. Every gas in in its vapour stage will exhibit a pressure if contained.

Cheers

Peter

Hi, DaS Energy! OK. This is in response to your blog #1. I'm puzzled by your wanting to use the liquid H to force the water anywhere at all to produce energy. Doesn't the energy consumed by liquifying the H nullify any energy generation benefits it can produce by expansion back into a gas and being thus used to displace the water? Mark

Hi Mark,

Sorry to confuse, I"m not that good at comunicating, never my intent to use liquid Hydrogen. Would have been better to say I have one litre of Hydrogen gas at one Bar pressure at 20c temperature how much will the Bar pressure rise as I increase the temperature. Like that which happens in the piston type Stirling engine.

DaS Energy (which stands for Dad and Sons) want our development to be for public use and ownership so please feel free to use if you want.

All the parts are included in the schematics and the water flow and gas action make the whole thing run without further assistance.

It is stated on hydro turbine site that one litre of water per second flowing through a hydro turbine at nine Bar pressure will generate 720 watts, and each doubling of either Bar pressure or flow of water per second will double the wattage output.

As the refridgeration of the gas lowers the gas temperature to that coming out of the heater, the difference in the Bar pressure is the working pressure.

This means no matter what the temperature of the heater a working pressure shall always occur.

So if I have an air temperature of 20c the gas exiting the heater will be 20c but the gas temperature going into the heater will be as low as the refridgeration process makes it.

The consequence of this is a turbine that continualy runs without any other heat source than air temperature.

All of which makes me a real popular boy with all those Coal, Oil and Gas powered turbines now on the market.

Hope all this made some sense, thanks again for all your help.

Cheers

Peter

Hi DaS Energy,

"I have one L of H₂ @ 1 bar pressure at 20ºC how much will the (bar) pressure rise as I increase the temperature"?

If you consider the H2 as "ideal" at these conditions, you may use the ideal gas law to estimate the pressure for a given temperature.

PV = nRT

First, let's solve this in terms of moles of the H2:

n = PV/RT

P = 1 bar

V = 1 L

T = 20ºC (293.15K)

R = 0.08314 (L-bar)/(mol-K)

Therefore, the amount of H2, in moles, is:

n = (1 bar * 1 L)/(0.08314 L-bar/(mol-K) * 293.15 K) = 0.041 moles

We now can solve in terms of pressure:

P = nRT/V

Since our volume doesn't change, our equation becomes:

P = 0.00341*T(K)

Let's test it for 20ºC (273.15 K):

P = 0.00341*293.15 = 1.000 bar Correct!

Let's try 50ºC (323.15 K):

P = 0.00341*323.15 = 1.102 bar.

Let's try 1000ºC (1273.15 K)

P = 0.00341*1273.15 = 4.341 bar

Conclusion (my remarks)...

For the energy input to increase the temperature, you don't get that much of an increase in pressure with which to do work.

Mike

Hello Mikerho,

Thank you for taking time to answer my question.

I have no academic qualification and very little schooling so my work has been a long series of make it and see.

I first got the DaS Turbine running on Co2, 30 Bar between 280 and 300K, so like a raw prawn I though if thats what I get from Carbon Dioxide imagine what I would get using Hydrogen.

The difference between genius and insanity is the finest of lines.

Cheers

Peter

Hi, DaS Energy!

I think you are going to like this site! I'm importing it for you from another blog set, #49 in the discussion about converting gasoline engines to Natural Gas engines.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/eaton_and_peter.html

Mark

Thanks Mark,

Going there next.

Cheers

Peter

Thanks Mark,

DaS Energy does it different, turbine pump any shaft to hydro turbine, servo releif to tank at forward motion, Power to Capcitor electric motor draw at launch.

More efficient and less parts.

Cheers

Peter

Hi, DaS Energy!

Yes, but ain't it great to know you are not only not alone, and others are utilizing the same variety of hydraulic energy harvesting process; but also there's engineering out there that is thinking along the same lines as you!

The idea that your process is an even more efficient generator makes it potentially even more attractive to a developer since it can be shown as an improvement on the concept these folks are actually employing now. Also, their system utilizes Nitrogen gas and comes with some numbers you don't have to defend.

Mark

You Beuty,

DaS Energy original demonstrator is now home.

Cant get me head round business.

285 (Tarong Fact Sheet) water, boils 1 water into 1700 Steam ( University NSW).

Hitachi 350 megawatt turbo generator 285 litres water per second. Tarong

285 litres of water convert to 484500 litres of Steam. University NSW

484500 litres Steam hydro water at 175 bar produces 6,783 megawatts.

So say the Boffins who run the web sites.

Cheers

Peter

das,

you set them all straight now peter! i believe you know EXACTLY what you are doing. wish i knew how to contact you directly. i believe i could help promote this product to the united states. force feed the public with knolege of the products existance , the demand will be so great that someone will produce it privately and its use will grow from there.

Thegmguru, A thousand thank you's.

My email adress is dasenergy@bigpond.com.au

Mailing adress is 884 Tallebudgera Creek Rd

Tallebudgera Valley 4228 Qld Australia.

With me and computers any thing can go wrong so if I not reply to this site Ive buggered up my computer again.

Cheers

Peter