Converting Auto to run to NG or LNG instead of gasoline

try http://www.lngplants.com/CarsTrucksBusses.htm

Years ago many police departments had the cop cars converted to LP/CNG (don't know if they still do now). Check your local cop cars and ask who services them.

great idea, thanks.

BRUCE

Quicker, cheaper SAFER is to go to a company that specializes in such conversions. If its anything like Germany, the system has to comply with many rules and regulations and at the end you need a certificate to even allow such a conversion to run on public highways.

I do not think that you can save anything in a DIY action, except maybe burial costs...

Government Reg's may not be so tough here in the US (yet - except maybe in California). You Europeans seem to love regulations. Here in the US we have been only writing laws and reg's for 230 years whereas you lucky twits have had centuries to keep writing more and more and more. One comment I heard from a friend after visiting Sweden was that the masses don't know how to think for themselves anymore. The government does it for them. He worries that we will quickly join Europe in regulation of thoughts and ideas.

Andy you have some cool Smileys and pics or what ever you would call the burning car !!

Hi, Andy Germany!

Couple of AK's with the same advice. We both told 'em. The youngsters don't listen. GA for simple down-home good advice. Only realistic answer, if you ask me.

Lots of interesting things came out of the replies, tho. I really like that home filling station. Betcha it'll work for the propane heating folks too.

Mark

I am sure (as I guess you are too) that not only is it much safer to let a professional install, he will also have all the right parts to hand......and I am sure many of these parts cannot even be bought by you and me!!! Or set up correctly etc etc..

But the young who won't listen, have to go and get their own bruises....we cannot stop them!!

Hi, Andy Germany!

It is an unfortunate thing for the adventursome and mechanically inclined types who want to do their own changeovers; but around here, the rules for changeover are also bound up with red tape that only the licenced installers are able to get through with any ease.

Mark

I certainly do agree with that red tape, same here, but where is "there" please? USA? You do not give a clue as far as I can tell......

Hi, Andy Germany!

<-----That little white flag with the red bars and maple leaf on it under my handle is the flag of Canada. If you click on my name on any of the blogs, it'll take you to a general description of who I am and my participation history in CR4, and I invite you to have a looksee.

I live in Toronto, Ontario (where several converting companies exist); and am proudly Canadian -born and bred!

Mark

Thanks for the reply, you seem to have got the point better than some others!

Others seem to forget that having (in your case) the Canadian Flag as part of your Avatar DOES NOT mean that you live in Canada or 100% that you are Canadian!!

I live in Germany, but I have not taken German nationality for a good personal reason and if I put a Flag in my Avatar, it would be a Scottish one!!!! Saltire forever!!

Which was the reason for my question.....

I do feel that everyone on CR4 (except Trolls of course as they generally do not matter at all.....) should really state categorically where they live as often a reply hinges on that one single point, 115 to 230 volts 50 or 60 Hz being a prime example.....It always seems they are the ones that ask "Regional" questions.....

Have a great day in spite of me!!

take my word for it it is NOT owrth doing.

the cost to replace the front end after a few thousand miles and the the rear suspension if it lasts that long will blow any savings right out of the water. impco used to make a set up for doing the conversions but the problem you will probably encounter is bending the stainless steel high pressure hose without kinks or splits.

i saw a chevy 3/4 ton the owner had se up to run as a ngv conversion, trouble was the carb was dual fuel when he flipped the rocker for the ng to run the steel tubb had a split in the curly q feed line, right over the high tendion coil, that pick up truck tank was full pressure the engine blew out of the front like a rocket.

'da ber

We should deal in facts not hearsay.

It has been proven for decades that it is worth doing. Depending and your engine. If fitted properly they equate to massive savings (depend on your local fuel price at the pump)

There are disadvantages - The only one I care about is a slight reduction in power.

Regards

J.

interesting that you use the word hearsay in your reply.

10 the vehicle was a 1988 chevy with a v-8 block i forget the size displacement

2 the vehicle conversion was done by a defunct company in a place called stone creek ontario in canada

3 the entire installation was approved of by the agents of the antional energy board of canada

4two days after the operator drove the vehicle exactly 106 miles the gas NGV tanks had to be refilled

5 the vehicle was driven another 50+/- miles on the ngv. fuel system

6 the operator experienced a clink in the left rear suspension returned it to the shop for assesment of the cause, it was found the leaf spring asembly on that side was starting to bend, o.k that could be normal in a vehicle 1 having 80+/- km on it. the spring shop mechanic reported having seen the same issue and worse when the conversion to dual fuel had been done, warned the operators in writing that he would not accept resposibility for injury however caused by displacement of the springs shackle assembly popping out from the vehicles rear axle dimple. the rear spring factory installed leafs assembly were not strong enough to take the added weight and the front steering suspension would not be able to take the extra stress on its components due to the vehicle carrying extra weight and the stress that put on the steering sysytem when the brakes would be suddenly applied in a in a high speed forward movement . next came the info about the operators not having been told that eis warranty requires the vehicles braking system to match the increased wieght of the vehicle( that could not be met)

7 fast forwardf three weeks later the same 106 mile trip was made at about 40 mile into it the ngv. gauge showed tank empty it had beed filled to the 3200psi limit before the trip was started. the operator swithed to the liquid gas carburant and completed the trip. the vfehicle was refulled with the liquid carburant and the ngv. ttanks were charged once more they took the 3200psi max fill load.

8 the next morning the operator started the pickup on the liquid carburant and drove by arrangement back to the stone creek installers shop to find out why the tanks which had been refilled had no mileage on them were again empty

9 the operator of the install shop was not in the shop that morning but, it just happened nother newly hired installer when the operator wdrove in and started a rant about the p.p. mileage of the p.o.s. set up they had installed in the truck. the new hire looked under the hood and pointed out the fact the steel tubing curly q had a split on the inside of the steel tubings seam that was allowing the compresed gas to shoot out over top of the engine high ignition tension coils. apparently when he shook the tube h there was just enough gas to ignite and blow the head of the vehicles fight cylinder bank.

10 i was the owner operator of the truck so much foyou telling me that the problems with the conversion from single to dual fuels is hearsay.

11 i bought a brand new chevy van in 1973 and had it converted to run straight propane on the big 6 block which came as a factory setup, the springs front and back were changed to add a 2 leaf helper set on the back and moog coils and heavy shocks on the front. my biggest problem with that vehicle was in indiana where the propane filling station operators usually said "I ain't never seen a truck that runs on cookin fuel" when i went refuel it. that van finally died after hitting 520,000 miles i scrapped it in 1996 when the steering gear box started seperating from the mounting brackets which had rusted out.

'da ber

Here in India we get conversion kits for CNG or LPG they cost around U.S$ 570/-.Most of the Cabs have been running here on CNG since many years without any problem. These are imported kits may be available in your country, if not then I can find it for you and let you know.I hope CNG is cheaper in your country.

Suresh Sharma. e-mail: sureshsharma@yahoo.com

HI,

Don't Google "LNG conversion" but "LPG conversion" - Liquid Petroleum Gas. A lot of countries have being given incentives to do these conversions sense the the 70's.

http://www.boostlpg.co.uk/driver_industry/how2.htm

Above is a UK site which should give you a good understanding of the system.

Regards

J.

Hi,

You may wish to try this company for help. Ask for Ken Warner. He is an ocean of information and a very friendly person who loves to chat on the phone. If you are patient, he will tell you everything you need to know in a way which will stick in your head. Go to: http://propane.4a-pro.com/?gclid=CMPZh7eQmZQCFQL8iAodz2TG0Q

Sincerely,

Ann Nonymouse

Here in the Dom. Rep. most cars run on Lpg. Conversion is esay as there are no regulations. It consists mainly of a converter whick runs to your cooling system to warm the gas up. The simplest set up consists of a converter, home type stove tank and hoses that pass through the air filter and into carb. neck. suprisingly there are very few problems/accidents involving gas here. I have used it for years with no problem and the savings are great.

There were many gasoline farm tractors that were converted over to compressed gas in the 60's and 70's. There were many farmers that were very happy with the choice. The engines lasted longer with less maintainance plus they saved some money. More would have joined that conversion if there had been more savings on fuel. It was hard to justify the hassles when gasoline was priced under 30 cents per gal.

I would say go for it especially if you want to extend the life of the engine.

Sorry I don't have any cool smileys like Andy.

Your comments do not need smartening up, they are good enough on their own.

By the way, any Smileys you like can be saved into a folder on your computer and used wherever you like.

If you need more info, just ask, its really easy.

My dad was the service manager at the local Ford dealership during the 1960's and 1970's. The LNG supplier bought Ford trucks because they allowed this modification without voiding the warranty. Chevy did not. Dad told me it was an easy conversion that basically was a dual carb intake with some servos to turn off the gasoline and turn on the gas. The timing had to be changed and that was handled again with a servo that opened the vacum advance on the distributor. He said the performance was great. The trucks had almost instance responce when running on LNG. He said when they had the oil changed it was a golden as the day they put it in.

Now having said all of that, This was all done with a carb instead of injectors. I'm sure that the injectors could pass the gas ok. The timing issue would be much easier since there are racing computer moduals that allow for multiple settings.

I have a side gig where I drive the Zamboni for RPI's college hockey team, and those machines run on propane though modified VW engines. Theres almost no external difference to that motor setup other then the carb. That being said though, when they aren't tuned properly, and the engine gets hot, you can smell ammonia coming out of the tail pipe. We also burn a decent amount of oil, even on brand new engines (about a quart every 2-3 weeks: may not sound like much, but these machines might only travel a distance of 10 miles total on a busy day), so making sure you can pass emissions might be your toughest part.

Avery Montembeault

Hi, cbs!

You wrote "here in the USA the fed government considers any change to the vehicle to be tampering with the "emmissions system" which carries a 5000 $/day fine if not approved"

Who gives the approval, and how does one get it if one wants to be approved?

Mark

i never really got that far -- i realized that you can not do the work yourself --

it has to be done by a "certified" installer and the costs were almost half as much of a new car or prius etc after you pay for everything -- the tanks are pressure tested to 3500psi and they are one of the largest expenses.... they must also be inspected at some interval -- the vehicle must also be able to contain the tanks -- your big buick should be fine!-)

filling the tanks without the thing in your garage would be an issue too

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/stations_locator.html

fueling stations are for the most part private -- many will let you use a credit card and set up an account

NG has primarily been used in fleet vehicles

let me know how it turns out or if you discover some cheaper way

i have a taurus wagoni am not using and i thought would be a fun project

for the 30k for the honda gx and the garage equipment

i think i would rather invest in an www.aptera.com

I am surprised that gas installs are so expensive in the USA.....

Here a complete install costs a one time (I will explain shortly) payment of between €2-2,500. If when you come to sell the car later and the new owner is not interested (seldom) in the gas system, they will remove it and re-install it in a new car for around €500 plus the new adaptor costs (mostly less than €100).....

A system installed in Holland is generally a lot cheaper and just as good and has all the necessary paperworks for German TÜV.

Its not something you do for a low mileage one year and sell, it pays for itself if you do a lot of mileage and use gas a lot.

Super petrol is around €1,60 per Liter here at this moment, gas costs €0,72 per liter....you need about 7% more than on Super petrol.

Andy -

Great stuff; now if I can only figure out how to ship my Buick Lucerne over to Antwerp.

thanks

I want to send my taurus wagon too!

Maybe we can start a buiness in Mexico to do it?

Ironically , in the USA , if the car is 10 yrs old you can polute in most areas as much as you want to as there is no test or requirements once it is 10 years old; however, you can not improve it without major investment and regulation. Thank goodness we have the government doing the greater good. Watch the EPA in action as this notion of "trading" emmisions comes into play. George Orwell will say i told you so!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen!

.......and back?

Hi, cbs!

Response 16 ?

Mark

Hi, bbergwall!

Look in your local Business Telephone Directory (Yellow Pages around hereabouts) under

"Automotive Fuel Conversion"

Mark

Go to your local LP GasCompany, they have been running their trucks on LPG for 40 years. On carburetors it is an easy change but I don't know how injectors would work. A lot of the responses were just rumor not fact. The oil problem had to do with the VW engine, LPG vehicles have longer life due the way the gas burns and expands and the oil does not get blowby from the pistons. I do not know anything about the present regulations but the LPG dealer should. Many of the forklifts in industry use LPG especially ones that work outside. I was surprised at the many inaccurate and plain false replys to this question.

He's talking NG or LNG not LPG

Very little difference as far how it is used. There is a difference in the orafice size, however. No sweat - orafice is easily changed.

guest this seems to have stirred a hornets nest

the vehicle was originally a single carburant user the cconversion used liquiffied natural gas and gasoline. if you know better than what the people who installed the system and the second instaler who tore the original out and relaced it who aslo called it liqified natural gas then you are more knowledgeable about the system tghat was installed than the manufacturerof the system was.

'da ber

i would love to have a chat with the people at impco, maybe this time they may wish to accept my positionthat the installation and <NOT> repeat <NOT>thier products was of less than acceptable workmanship.

do you think that could be a reason why the installing company has long gone out of business from that stone creek location?

read the original post again, the person was asking about the PROBLEMS encountered with the ngv conversions, the fact that the vehicle may run on a alternate fuel does not change the characteristics of the vehicle itself.the vehicle chassis and suspension may not be able to support the physical characteristics of the materials and devices used in conjuction to effect the change. if you will take the time to READ my post and THINK about what i wrote you CANNOT help but observe that i never made ANY mention about the products used in the installation of the FUEL DELIVERYsystem, or the mileage problems other than those encountered after the first few fillups. by the way it got to be TOO expensive to drive the p.u. on ngv. fuel, i used 3200 lbs. of fuel for a 150 mile section of the run, run so i drove on regular unleaded until i scrapped it.

if you will take time to READ my statements and THINK ABOUT WHAT I WROTE you cannot avoid coming to the conclusion that i was reporting that while i had the vehicle the big problems with the conversion were with the WORKMANSHIP done during installation and the p.u. trucks' factory installed suspension.the installer did not check to see if the steel delivery tube to the carb was leaking after he bent the s.s.tubing into the curly q shape and mounted it on the carb. the fact that at no time was i informed the factory suspension would not carry the extra weight of the 2 tanks and very soon after the conversion would show up to be a MAJOR problem in operating that particular vehicle.

had you taken the time to read and ask yourself what i was relating to the enquirer you may have deduced that the chevy van with the propane only was a dream to drive and operate, it had a suspension set up to match the weight of the tanks.

the system that allowed that 250 to last that long was made by impco. i think some parts of it is still somewhere out in the shed

'da ber

I understand your position fully, you were badly affected by someone that should not have been running a washing machine and of course he went out of business.....

Shame you did not try and find another company to investigate the gas losses and fix them.....might have cost less than you might have thought.

I also feel that putting the vehicle on a hoist and going over all the pipes and connections with some soapy (I use washing up liquid, though there are some expensive sprays that do it slightly better!) water might have discovered where the leak was.....I do this from time to time on my caravan to make sure that all is well with the gas connections.....

thank you andy. soap and water sparyed all over the system to check the connections was as i agree something that was beyond the knowledge of the ORIGINAL installer. since i no longer am able to work i have a bit more time to look up the stuff like that, apparently there is a spray compound to use at each stage of the installation as part of the installation process, something like a leak detector for air conditioner or antifreeze systems.

'da ber

I am not sure how to take your response other than to say my post had nothing to do with your earlier post or the following comments. I only posted their link because I know them from a professional level. Several years back, they approached the company I was working for about having us handle the manufacturing of a controller-based intake mixing valve for GM. I was fortunate enough to have to commute thru rush hour traffic from the northern end of San Fernando Valley to Cerritos daily for a couple of months to evalute their design and determine its manufacturability. In the end the project fell through because they were unwilling to give us the ability to make changes to the design in order to make it more manufacturable.

I can say that while I was there that they were converting in volume, Chevy Cavaliers, Chevy and GMC 1/2 ton pickups as well as Postal vehicles. I can't say much about aftermarket installers in Canada or how this type of conversion is related to front end damage or to Impco themselves.

Good Answer.

If our government bureaucracy ever gets its head out of everyones backside we could do alright. They must think we are too dumb to be able to help ourselves or else they are protecting some big money industry - who would that be??

and just how does that comment relate to the discussion?

'da ber

Hello bbergwall

You don't list your Country or location, which is easily done in your Profile.

As a former user of CNG = Compressed Natural Gas - powered vehicles, please note there are several problems:

1. Room required for the thick-walled pressure tanks (3,000pisg)
2. Distance travelled for full fuel load is poor, because of calorific value of fuel One Landrover we had (short-wheelbase) could be refilled 3 times each day, for less than 300kM total for the day.
3. CNG is a DRY gas, and consequently bores, rings and pistons of our vehicle fleet became scoured.

1. Nothing can be done about (1) above)

2. Nothing can be done about (2) above)

3. We discovered a neat auto-dispenser of Moreys upper-cylinder lubricant see:

MOREY'S ® POWER BOOSTER KIT $59.95

We developed Morey's Power Booster to protect valves and seats against the driest fuel of all...CNG.
It also works for LPG.
It works for leaded and unleaded petrol engines too. For engines of any age.
And if you have an environmental conscience, it tames your exhaust emissions. No matter what fuel you use.
Want more good news? It costs under 3-cents a litre, but it's not a cost. It evens compressions, makes your engine run smoother, more economical and raises power.

You actually save, your upper cylinder area lasts longer, and so do your spark plugs.

Additional fitting/operating instructions not included in the instruction booklet.
Initial start up - warm to tropical climatic conditions
The Power Booster metering unit UCL control screw is set at the factory to meter 2 drops of Morey's Combustion Chamber Cleaner & Upper Cylinder Lubricant (UCL) per minute at 15°C this setting is sufficient to start the Power Booster metering unit working at an ambient temperature of 15°C and over. It is not recommended to alter the initial setting until UCL begins to enter the Power Booster meter chamber. If a faster start up rate is absolutely necessary open (turn anti clock wise) the UCL control screw a further quarter turn only. If the UCL control screw is opened more than a further quarter turn UCL drops may not form, instead UCL enters the Power Booster meter chamber in a continuous stream, giving the impression that the unit is not functioning. To remedy the streaming effect slowly close (turn clock wise) the UCL control screw until UCL drops do form. Once drops are forming set the UCL control screw to the desired drip rate and follow the instructions in the booklet for final setting.

Initial start up - moderate to cold climatic conditions
Follow the instructions in the previous paragraph with the following exception. It is recommended that prior to filling the Power Booster UCL supply bottle, that the UCL is warmed to at least 15°C by placing the original container in an upright position, with the cap attached, in hot water only for approximately 15 minutes. Wipe water from wet container before filling the Power Booster UCL supply bottle.

Setting drop rates higher than 8 drops per minute all conditions
To set drop rates from 12 to 22 drops per minute. Prior to filling the Power Booster UCL supply container, the UCL must be heated to 30 – 40°C by placing the original container in an upright position, with the cap attached, in hot water only for approximately 15 to 30 minutes. Once the required UCL temperature has been reached transfer it to the Power Booster UCL supply bottle, start the engine, leave the meter at factory setting until oil drops appear then slowly open the UCL control screw by turning anti clock wise until the desired drop rate has been obtained. Allow the system to settle down then make the final drop rate adjustment. NOTE: When high drop settings are in place it is normal for the UCL to stream (not form drops) at cold start-up conditions. Once normal operating temperature has been reached drops will form.

SAFETY: DO NOT EXPOSE UCL OR ITS CONTAINER TO NAKED FLAMES OR OTHER SOURCES OF IGNITION.

The Power Booster metering unit is designed to operate at a constant pre-set drip rate during high/low vacuum at normal under hood operating temperature. For the most economic use of UCL the final setting should be regulated to this condition.

Under hood space in modern vehicles is becoming increasingly crowded. With this in mind the Power Booster Lubrication System was designed to be two separate components in order to utilise the limited available space. Prior to installing the Power Booster system arrange to keep the UCL supply container and the Power Booster metering unit as close to each other as possible. The closer these two components are the sooner the Power Booster metering unit will start operating when the engine is started. The maximum distance of the Power Booster metering unit may be mounted from the UCL supply container is the extreme length allowed by the UCL pick up line (smaller tube). Depending on the length of the UCL pick up line, and the ambient temperature, a time delay of up to 5 minutes can occur from cold engine start up until UCL drops appear in the Power Booster metering unit. This delay is normal and should not cause concern.

If the UCL oil bottle and the Power Booster metering unit are mounted to the extreme distance allowed by the UCL pick up line it is best to keep the UCL discharge (larger) tube as long as possible. A longer discharge tube enables UCL to be available to the engine at cold start up, compensating for the delayed start up time of the Power Booster metering unit.

To ensure correct operation the top of the Power Booster metering unit where the UCL pick up tube enters the Power Booster metering unit must remain unobstructed. Under no circumstances seal off the top of the Power Booster metering unit where the oil pick up line enters the meter, doing so will render the Power Booster metering unit erratic and unreliable. A valve critical to the operation of the Power Booster metering unit will also be rendered useless, as well as void the Morey's ® Power Booster warranty.

©1995-2002 Vacmatic International Ltd, PO Box 69-226 Glendene, Auckland 1230, New Zealand. MOREY'S® is a registered Trademark of Vacmatic International Ltd.

These kept the reconditioned engines in good heart, also increasing the power output markedly, at the same time lowering the engine temperature.

Liquified Natural Gas is a good fuel, and the gas cylinders take you further than CNG, volume for volume.

LNG is a "wet gas", thus the cylinder bores etc, do not get scoured as with CNG.

Here in New Zealand, as in other jurisdictions, there is a proper Engineering Installation Certificate, as having been installed in accordance with local safety standards, by a certified Installer, BEFORE the vehicle is certified for road use.

The taanks are inspected at regular intervals, and each 5 years must be removed and sent to an inspection laboratory for internal examination and re-Certification for use, if OK.

All the CNG equipment from New Zealand was scrapped, as replacement compressors were required, after some 8 - 10 years usage at filling stations, and the horredous cost of compressor replacements caused every filling station to cease CNG sales.

The scrapped CNG equipment, compressors, tanks, and vehicle equipment was exported to Boilivia, where the local "Rules" are not strict, and no certification required there, as far as I know.

Vehicle equipment used here was made in Italy.

Kind Regards....

sparky i think you are a great guy and there is a product that reads as imilar to stuff you have in n.z. being sold out a aplace in rochester new york. but what i am looking at is the reason why all the responses but one or two have centered on what were not issues i had a real problem with when i had the convert done. at the root of many of these comments many readers and unfortunately you too are not looking at what i see a great problem which is not related or discused when the conversions are done that may if the work WERE done properly MAY have raised a few issues but what i keep hammering away at are the problems that DO NOT arise with fuel consumption. what i related was the problems with r.t.a. mechanics who don't tell customers about the non fuel problems they may encounter or like mine who i have repeatedly said throughout the threads i have posted didn't either want to

a) tell customers about what to expect in suspension problems which you know affects performance

b) care to put the assembly togeter properly and

c) have no clue or want to have any clue about the issue of hair line cracks in the seam of the stainless steel tubing they bend like pretsels into curly q shapes.

sorry sparky that post is one of the very rare disappointments for me to read coming from you. and i hope there will be no more from the readers who don't bother to ask themselves just what am i looking at.

'da ber

barfnagler, BTW your handle gives me a giggle.

I will attempt to address your complaint. The auto repair business and in particular the technician you dealt with certainly did you a disservice.

As an ASE certified master auto and truck technician with over 30 years (or one year x 30 if you prefer) experience, I have seen a lot of parts installers masquerading as techs. The shops can get these guys cheaper and they often work faster and are better at inflating the bill.

Unfortunately there's not much you can do about it except take them to court. They count on that, knowing you will think twice about going through that much hassle.

That said, the advice I would give is to create a relationship with a tech you feel is trustworthy. These days it could take quite a while to even find one in the first place. As I said before the shops are tending to go for the young and greedy. If you can find a shop that has an owner operator who at least spends time on the floor with an eye to quality work you may find the place to take your vehicles.

shade tree you and andy win the prize. what is it how thdik what ir is but you and andy seem to be the only one who picked up on what i was posting as my reply to the enquirer.

i hope that what you have is the last one i see of it.

now i am going to ask you a totally unrelated question. is what i posted not easy to understand? if it is not then please assist me in learning a better way to put my ideas on paper so they can be.

i ask this because i have had several major brain injuries one of which was loosing a fight with what was a f-350 before the 5 speed was added to the treed 3 and a 33'x 7'/10" x 3" oak under 1/2" checker plate floor was put on it. the only things left from the original truck before it was turned into a scrap scow were the engine and the cab.

about 3 months later i woke up with about 25 to 40% of my right temporal lobe hacked away. the surgeons had no choice to do that after the 10:00x20 inside duals went over my face chest and pelvic area.

about 25 years later i found a report from statefarm about why they refused the claim, it was for good reason and one which had i been in on i would have denied a payout on. the reason for denial was simple the shade treee mechanmics who had rebuild the brake system decided somehow the use of new drum expander wedges wasn't needed, so they recycled apparently for a 3rd x the shoe and wedge assembly then put it back into service. it is my understanding that both the EIS and FOMOCO reps told them both that would not stand up, they did it anyway.

who would do something like that? my brother and father.

thanks to you and any i really do feel happy for sticking to my guns and hoping someone would do exactly as i asked.

as for the nickname barfnagler the story is simple it goes back to my dogs.

if you have ever seen a swiss mountain dog not a st. bernard you will understand they can and will eat just about anything that looks or smells ediblefresh or raw. the one we had enjoyed what i made up for him basic animals raw food or barf and the nagler and may equate as somewhat equalling "head". so when the neurologist put what was left of my head back together and sewed my face up i looked like the dogs breakfast for a year or two.if i opened the house door real slow i was able to scare the hell out of the kids at halloween thier parents the rest of the year.

again thanks

to you both

'da ber

Sparky -

This is fabulous information; thank you for your insights. Now if I can just figure out how to get this to work here int he US of A.

Cheers

For CNG, 70% of the cost is the cylinder and a full conversion kit may run you $3,000, if you use composite (carbon fiber) cylinder, which is recommended. The best way to find conversion kit suppliers is to go to NGV2 site, see http://www.ngvglobal.com/ for example. If you do not have CNG re-fueling station near your house, you are in trouble and will need a NG pump, this assumes you have Natural Gas for heating. If neither applies, foget-about-it!

lincoln composites makes high pressure carbon fillament wound hydraulic accumulators (5000psi) and cng tanks

http://www.lincolncomposites.com/main.html

i met them doing contract research for

hydrualic launch assist breaking - another interesting fuel economy improvement

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/eaton_and_peter.html

In 1998 we bought a 5.7 litre full size gm van[15 passenger]. I immediately engaged a professional conversion centre to convert to dual fuel. I checked motor and got 9.9 mp imp gal in town and 15.5 on hiway. friendly place however glacially slow. the wait used up 4 of my 14 day holidays. after 500 kilometres on gravel logging roads I checked under the doghouse [inside van]. there was a large sucking noise which turned out to be a crude metal cut underneath a precision "mexican hat" valve. the circular cut had a gap large enough to push a pencil through. no gasket or seal. this is the bottom of the air filter housing. precision cut by blow torch. I asked installer to fix and also why did computer say Mt when still 2500 psi in tank? [and run on gasoline] at home i checked and still no gasket or seal. computer recalibrated for Mt at 300 psi.

I fixed with silicone seal and polyethelene sheet. and ruined my next 2 OXygen sensors.

plugs had to be changed 2x a year regardless of type. the underhood air dam in a van exceeded the 1 psi nat gas flow at idle when decelerating. this created stalling when going down a long hill. with no red dash lights this was frightening for my wife who refused to drive anymore. I then would either downshift [auto] or flip to gasoline for short term. I took this problem to just about everyone in town and no solution.

I junked it in 2005 and bought a smaller van. Kept all parts and the only parts that are interchangeable are the tanks. all the electronics will not interchange with a smaller gm engine.

I met a cube truck driver at the filling station and he had 600,000 km's [360,000 miles] on his truck and on his second motor. He has replaced heads once and a new motor which was not new when he got it. and plugs lasted 6 years.

1 kilogram nat gas = 1 1/2 litres gasoline exactly [energetic equivalent or Gasoline Liq Equivalent, GLE] so I paid $1.56 per litre in my minivan 1 week ago, so as long as Nat gas is less than $ 2.34 kg there is money to be saved and reduced emissions.[read previous reply about carbon to hydrogen ratio]

the tanks were 120 lb aluminum 15 inch and 77 litre wet equivalent. 3 tanks total.they held max 36 kilos. [10 to 12 each] A nat gas technician[retired] saw my mixer valve and said they were the cheapest and least reliable. I had no problems with it. I got ABOUT 215 km in town and 330 on the highway. I towed a horse trailer 6000 gvw, mostly about 3500 max., power loss was marginal. I will be converting my astro van [GM] with 2 tanks only.

I was going to put in a home filling pump. cost was $3500 plus gov't regulations/permits and $1 electricity per fill [almost].storage tanks in garage may not be allowed. compressors last 2-3 years max and need an expensive rebuild.

would i do it again? yes. the first time I drove 180 Km [110 miles] with the horse trailer to pick up a ton of hay it cost $8.50. [$0.24 kg and now $1.19 kg] exact consumption can never be accurate, for running flat out on the freeway and filling up the tanks, which are very cold with ice on them and with hi pressure at filling station at that moment, you may get 3600 psi [36 kilos] in. sometimes sitting in sun, driving 5 min, low pressure at station, small amount [26 kg's] acquired throwing off consumption calculations.

Tanks, High pressure stainlesss steel lines, high pressure oil filled gauge, electric shut off valve[ to computer] manual shut off valves, 1 per tank and one master, I had an ECO Fuel electronic computer about the size of a cig pack on dash. worked perfectly. a blue electronic box supplied by eco fuel under the hood which told the car computer the sensors were good. a mixer valve which had heater hoses running into it and had a high pressure filter about the size of a pencil eraser. change every 2 years, 5 minutes. a low pressure nat gas valve which froze early and I left it like that for it stalled less when this "knife"valve was seized part way open. no one could believe it worked like that. keep engine tuned. a gasoline ICE has lots of power when out of tune. A nat gas ICE is underpowered when a minor amount out of tune. consumption soars also. Have fun.The installer is no longer in business. Oh, a Hydrogen station opened up 5 min away, and some nat gas conv electronics can go directly to Hydrogen ! I wonder...

i knew that somewhere out there was a story of a installation s.n.a.f.u. worse than mine, just did not think it was possible to have one that badly done.

the O2 sensor replacements were another matter as was the left ex. manifold hole burn through issue, it could have been a thin spot in the casting, who knows?

now what i do find of great interest and value is-

the use of interchange parts, did you get that data from the mitchell's manuals or on your own digging,

how did you get the formula to find the the gas energy equivalent ratios.

in my case the two tanks installed were 5/8 thick seamless wall and belled steel tanks, what they were made of i have no idea but they were bloody heavy, a week after the install the first leaf on the both rear springs cracked, 2-3 months later the leaves seprated and i had to put in a new set of springs with a pair of 3/8 helpers,did you have that or front shock and coil rapidly wearing out the mounting bushings, did you have problems keeping the alignment in line after the install,

the cost of filling at home may or may not have been a problem, i relate that as it was never done on the advice of our insurer, adi knew about all the problems with the install and after issues i was constantly facing, his suggestion that while the nat gas suppliers work and material would never be a problem the sticky point would be two things, the first obviuosly the install but the second was the neighbours grand kids, if they thought it fun to play chicken under the wife's outdoor power scooter lift what would they do with a h.p. n.g. filling unit unit,

replacement of the standard G.M. spark plug leads with 9mm. hypalon cored ones is by experience a summer winter change must do chore. if the during the winter time truck was running in minnesota and wisconsin or over the border in manitoba, no arguement about keeping all the electronic related and electrical equipment CLEAN and wd-40'd is essential, add the cost of doing that to the operational expense whether i did it or it was paid for, that adds a real bite into the operating savings,

last item please keep up the info about the hydrogen filling station, i am certain the dingbats who are a.r.i.'s will have many comments on that installations having been made.

great item you have given this anti n.g.v.f. thinker another perspective on the issue.

have a good day and remember any day above ground is a good one

'da ber