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Anonymous Poster

Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/07/2008 6:58 PM

Why if Helium is twice as dense as hydrogen does it have ~90% the lifting ability?

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Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/07/2008 7:15 PM

I found my own answer ...


Buoyancy depends on the difference of densities and not the ratio. Being twice as dense does not matter but the difference between their density does when comparing buoyancy of both.

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#10
In reply to #1

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 12:48 PM

For completeness:

Air has an average molecular weight of 29 g/mole

H2 has a molecular weight of 2 g/mole

Helium has a molecular weight of 4 g/mole.

lifting power of 1 mole of H2: 29 - 2 = 27 g

lifting power of 1 mole of Helium: 29- 4 = 25 g

So Helium has 92.6% the lifter power of H2.

Tad

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#16
In reply to #10

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/11/2008 2:59 AM

good explanation !!!

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/11/2008 5:32 AM

But none of this explains the buoyancy power of fizzy lifting drinks!!!

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#2

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/07/2008 7:36 PM

At STP, the density of hydrogen, helium and air is 0.09, 0.18 and 1.2 grams per liter respectively. The lift is determined by the difference in density of air and the lifting gas.

O.K. I see that you found the answer while I was writing.

Best regards,

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Bruce
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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/08/2008 1:34 AM

Hello ba/ael

from me

Next time, write faster

Kind Regards....

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/08/2008 10:58 PM

Thanks, SparkY.

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#5

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/08/2008 11:30 PM

also Hydrogen is not found in the usual state we get from a tank of it. Hydrogen is a double molecule H2,


don'rt ask me why,

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 12:14 AM

Hydrogen, being H2 has a molecular weight is 2. Helium has a single atom per molecue, but has two protons and two neutrons, so its molecular weight is 4. So, molecule vs molecule, helium is twice as heavy as hydrogen.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 12:53 AM

Yet, remember that atomic mass has nothing to do with weight, which is based on density, which is determined how the atoms pack together.

There are a number of incidence on the elemental chart where the atomic mass of one element is greater than another element, but a cm3 of the element with higher atomic mass is not as heavy as the element with lower atomic mass. It all depends on how many atoms of an element can be packed into that cm3.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 12:36 PM

True for solids and liquids. However, for gases, the density is directly proportional to the molecular weight, with a small error to account for the non-ideal nature of the gas.

Tad

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#12
In reply to #7

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 1:08 PM

Yet, remember that atomic mass has nothing to do with weight, which is based on density, which is determined how the atoms pack together.

In liquids and solids, that is correct, sort of. Actually, the weight (mass) of a mole's worth of a solid is directly related to atomic mass. The volume occupied by a solid depends on its density, which depends on the factor you mention.

For gases, this is not true, and you can compare the densities of gases just by comparing their molecular weights (with a couple caveats).

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#13
In reply to #5

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 7:28 PM

Atomic hydrogen is very unstable. It wants to get to a lower energy state. Its current spin state is unbalanced. By joinining with another hydrogen atom the spin states become matched and perfectly balanced.

An interesting outcome of this is the probability that H2, not atomic hydrogen, makes up most of the mass in the universe. This would eliminate the need to search for esoteric particles and "dark matter" to solve the gravity problem. Research since the late 1990's shows there is 10-15 x's more H2 than atomic H but because of its low energy state it is harder to detect spectroscopically than atomic H. Most cosmologists don't differentiate between the two in their papers.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/10/2008 12:33 AM

Good! I'm sure I am wrong when it comes to gasses. I just wanted to make the point that seems to escape so many that atomic mass ≠ weight of an element.

Thanks for a chance to just get that out there.

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#8

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 4:54 AM

Would surpose that because hydrogen as a gas is h2 a diatomic molecule the relative density of the diatomic molecule would de greater than its components where as helium is inert and exists as lone atoms with atomic weight 2 / but thats just a guess

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/09/2008 12:57 PM

That's a very reasonable guess, but in gases, the density is directly related to to the molecular weight (with just slight imperfections in the relationship).

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#15

Re: Helium and Hydrogen lifting abillity

08/10/2008 1:54 AM

Ignite the H2 and see what it can lift!

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