Outdated engineering: Outdated Designs

No, it is quite an interesting idea you bring up. It is quite silly having so many interchangable parts in many modern things... until you get to cars.

Well put. Computers are modular and surprisingly compatable. The funny thing re cars is, the V8 Supercar racing in Australia uses a degree of common parts but only two marques are allowed to race GM and Ford.

modern cars are ruined by corrosion in most countries in less than 10 years. If they made greater use of galvanized steel, plastic and stainless they could probably make one last for 40 years.

Engines can easily be made to last 20 years...costs extra.

Would they do that? Never. they change the fashion of the car every 5 years like womens dresses change every year to ensure a fast rollover of the inventory, be it cars or dresses.

So no-one will ever make the car you want because no-one would buy it after it became unfashinable.

I suppose you can change the skin= fashion change like a dress, but then it would be like a wife. After 20 years most men want the new model. LOL

The energy it takes to make a car is only a tiny fraction of the energy it will use in its lifetime. The energy in 10-15 gallons of gasoline will reduce an average size auto to a puddle of molten metal.

Older cars are inefficient, less safe, polluting, and less comfortable than modern cars. One can assume that cars will only get better with time. What is the real value of keeping old cars on the road? If you don't use it much, it may be worthwhile to maintain and keep an older car. But for everyday use, it is better for everyone concerned to update your vehicle as technology progresses. Most of the material used to build cars can and is recycled.

By the way, I remember reading somewhere that over 60% of all Ford Model A cars that were produced still exist.

Consumers direct automotive design with their dollars. Aside from the modular electric aspect of your wish list, much of what you describe already exists or has existed, although not in modular form, but multi-purpose. Why do you think the minivan is so popular? There are club-cab pickups with short beds that open up behind the back seats to extend the bed. More and more vehicles now have some form of all-wheel drive. There are also less successful attempts at versatility, such as the SUV with the retractable roof for handling tall objects. As far as modular configurations go, perhaps you remember the Nissan Pulsar, with the interchangeable back ends?

In any case, the observation I've made is that, in many examples, trying to make something do a lot of things results in sacrifices in some areas, or in it not doing anything very well. For example, vans and SUVs are harder on gas and typically don't handle very well, a minivan doesn't hold as much as a van, etc. There aren't as many people out there happy to compromise on their preferences as you might think. How many enthusiastic minivan owners do you know? They're popular out of (perceived)necessity and price.

Your description of an upgradeable electric vehicle sounds exactly like the present day gas-powered tuner car, a modestly priced compact vehicle with an abundance of after-market performance parts. Those cockroach cars are the test bed for technology that someday may make consumers vote for electric cars with their dollars. Once that happens, you can be sure that the performance parts market will soon follow.

Looking for the perfect solution is in it's self not really that hard for me to accomplish.

The points you have all made are relevant as it shows not only the idiosyncrasies of vehicular industries, it also points out that we humans grow tired of the lollies we have to day and move on to bigger and better lollies of tomorrow, design factors are optimal when making and producing the newer products.

Fashion although this traverses a completely different subject are aligned to the planet (Saturn) if my memory serves me correctly Thus each quarter cycle determines the cycle of fashion. approximately every eight years the same fashion trends resurface.

So why comment on this, Well the car is the one place that we all need not only reference to the job allocated to the vehicle but also the styles that the people wish to use the vehicle in.

So we get up in the morning (in the country - miles to the shop) and there's not enough for the guest etc.. at the house so off to the shop to get some essentials in a small economical shoper car. Home again and all feed there's a sport match on and everyone has got to go in their team colours, whether we won or lost they all fitted in to the colourful vehicle(s), By evening there's the opera for some (black or white limo dear?) and a possibly Bar-B-Que for others at the beach a get up a go tansport that means business on the sand dunes and some water sports is needed so, everyone and the kids, the dog and the portable Bar-B-Que all in two cars, off roading and having fun in the sand and on the water. Can you see the same car covering all these examples would you want the repair bills for all those different styles of vehicles and that's the point of this discussion and my input.

The Solution:

We all can have solutions in one description or another but will it work and is it ergonomically viable for all people in a safe and cost effective manor? mostly with what is a viable in the transportation industry ... NO! at least not in all house hold garages. a car a boat a buggy a limo a or two and a small shopping transport.

We need to place the "car/truck/pickup/offroad buggy/boyracer/glamour limo" all into one category that can be every one of these, yet fill the expectations of all in economical style and comfort without breaking the bank.

Although the solution I have is in no way holistic presently, it's a means to start a change over to a transportation method that will cover all aspects asked for, from the above scenarios.

The design ultimately requires a drive train that is efficient and economical whilst being light and upgradable also.

The design of an engine (DC electric) within the circumference of the wheel seemed to me to be very close to the ultimate solution. This unit has no drive train to speak of except for the wheel, the steering and suspension housing to consider.

Add to this a light weight body design that incorporates solar power on the outer surface and battery construction under this outer surface seem to me to assist with weight reduction and physical integration that has maximum efficiency and lastly a internal ridged chassis to hold the three parts together- body, drive train and chassis.

This leaves the actual body compartment or tray to construct for each type of vehicle.

The ultimate design shape will always be different for various occasions and load requirements, although to some extent a truck or pickup remains a goods vehicle and off road buggy or shopping cart vehicle usually have the similar dimensions and limousines are always going to have a sufficent capacity and style albeit differences in shape and/or colour as well.

So a prearranged shape should cover most units that will be the ultimate base units. and giving that the uses lie in varous catagories or sizes there will be obvious sizes or grades that the base unit will follow (for example three base sized units.)

Todate I have a base unit that for all intense and purposes would be sufficient to carry general attachments that changed the base unit from a personal car (approximately 6 - 8 people mover) to a pickup about the capacity of a medium size van or flat decked van or utility(initially gauged around one metric tonne). with capacity in weight being the main obstacle, as the vehicles own chassis's weight bearing structure would play a large part of this equation.

That being said I will now introduce the ultimate solution before this designs has it's respective technologies worked out to accomplish what I am proposing ( a looking glass into the future of capabilities of design if you will) (as apposed to double talk as someone has accused me of such already).

The wheel affixed and designed in particular manors can become as well as a drive train of a vehicle. In it's different form especially for the micro technologies (as a duel connectivity unit) (omitting the internal turbine constructed for the employment as a vehicle's wheel drive train)

The same unit can be used with the use of static electricity to become a unique micro tool with the outcoming capacity of manufacturing an alternative body surface. using solar paneling and nano battery segments to form a flexible cloth made from equilateral triangular mats linked in such a way to be able to morph into the required shapes/designs.

Thus ending up with a vehicle that can take the place of many designs to enthrall the most imaginative customer.

This equilateral triangular mats (paste) can also be put to other uses and will eventually be the main part of many features that are now made from totally different processes materials for many varied designs.

Then with the added advantage of rental semi-fully automated vehicular access along side of private owned (interchangeability through morphing) these vehicles will not only be the ultimate resource for the transportation networks it will also, to a wide extent, reduce the need of some to the features that presently obstruct the progress towards a warranted (provide adequate ground for) idea such as this.

For example: most goods are transported in Trains-trucks-ships and planes of a quantitative size to make them affordable and economic. These ideas of the industrialised age are no longer that particularly valid within the newer Electrical revolution I am suggesting. The size of transported goods is at most a lot less than the size of containers made for the transportation of those goods and/or people (as with busses mini vans and limo's) to various parts of the countries, towns, villages and outlying verge societies they service.

A Truck for example that has the same capacity as a 40 foot shipping container is not always full and for a greater part of it's life traverses great distances (using valuable fuel resources) with inefficient loading, and in many outlying regions it is only the clients choice to pay for these uneconomical deliveries that keep this type and size of transport operational in many cases.

As a foot note: I was driving for "Bridge Freight Ltd" here in Auckland and our company alone transported 90% of the empty container movement from the shipping companies (wharfs) to the container holding companies and then after inspection to usability these same empty containers where transported to the clients that wished to use them for their shipped and road/rail transportation of their goods.

Where the complete unit such, as to the sizing, the size of the "package alone" to be transported as a complete unit (as opposed to loaded and unloaded from truck to train to boat to truck to train to truck to client) then the unit would save the client and costumers a great expence in handling, and extra cost of transporting the "Transportation" to and from each section of the exercise.

because an empty transport costs valuable resources as well as additional logistics of the transported goods locations.

the truck at empty needs to traverse the distance whilst empty some times more than the goods transportation distances and that is completely uneconomical.

This is all possible with the advent of a new wheel form (shape) that includes the motive energy from built in solar power cells or hydrogen fuel cells, external electrical collections and generation, along the road side electrical fuel recharging unit (on travel over the top recharging units) and at a very last resort from electricity generated from fossil fuel motors.

The unit has no drive train so fitting the unit can be preformed with almost any type of suspension arrangement.

the unit capacity requirements for a unit fitted to any vehicle is such that: the larger the fitted unit is the more torque the unit has.

the fuel usage of the unit is in the range of one third of present fuel consumption of any similar type vehicle that runs on an internal combustion engine.

the smaller capacity (one quarter to one third of the capacity of a 20ft road container approximately) assists with less travel expenditure of large sized vehicle running empty.

making these vehicles semi-fully automated using such technologies as "convoying in transit" controls, allows these units to require less space for parking capacity in large CBD areas, (thus lessening congestion and opening up these districts to utilize their present parking facilities for trading purposes) A mute point that continually seeks this solution.

and tomorrows problems Senario's...

the kids talking to the arrived auto-convoy rental car, Billy and rose

[billy] "No! I want a `blue` car" [Rose] yuK! bill, `red`, it'ill go much faster haha."

dad comes out - "leave that car alone you kids it's costin me money to do that! and it's not going to go an faster if you's use up all the power till we get to the refuel?, huh!"

http://www.treezone.co.nz

I find your comments interesting. Engineering, from where I sit anyway, seems to be driven by two specific forces. The most powerful one seems to be cost, followed by utility to the company sponsering the research. AIDS receives 10X the research money when compaired to Diabetess. AIDS kills about 15.000 peope per year. Diebetes kills 75,000 people. AIDS has a strong and very vocal support group that beats the drum and gains support for research. Diabetes doesn't seem to. The fact is that there is little or no market for the Super Electric Car you speak of at $160,000 nor will there ever be. The average car cost was around $32,000 when last I saw it; much lower than any novel car design available today. There is no reson that the oil companies, the car companies or the public will shoot themselves in the foot to push such design. The cost is too high and the utility too low. It may be that looking at the issue rationally, we should be doing more basic research, but the realities are that we won't until something related to cost or utility drive us in that direction.

Please ignore Guest #5. He forgot to take his medication today.

Seriously, the original poster raised some good points that deserve clear (non-lunatical) and concise (non-raving) answers.

Firstly, the complexity and cost of the modern automobile precludes some of the design ideas you mention. Have you checked the price of the "modular" tools? Often the price of an attachment is nearly equal or exceeds the cost of a competitor's similarly capable "one use" tool. Yes, it sounds like a great idea in theory, but in practice it is problematic. And cars are much more complex than power tools. It is a wonder of modern engineering that the vehicles designs are actually completed. Just look at the legions of engineers it takes to design all of the systems and subsystems. Modularity sometimes works the other way. In this case we have a single common (modular) design for many components such as air conditioners, brake parts, sometimes even engines, that are used in multiple models. That is the economical way to do automotive design. If you want modularity in utility for autos, go back to the days of the Ford Model T. This design was relatively simple compared to today's cars. Model T's became roadsters, touring cars, even pick-up trucks and buses. Were they reliable? No, not exactly, but every "shade tree mechanic" could work on them, unlike the "gee-whiz" technical marvels we have today.

There is one modular vehicle in production today. That is the HUMVEE produced by AM General for the US military. It can be stripped down to be a basic "dune buggy" for scouting (closest thing to a "rag-top sports car" in the military), or be loaded up with armaments to be a hit-and-run commando vehicle, patrol car for Military Police and Security, add a hard top and bullet-proof glass windows to serve as a go-anywhere staff car for high ranking officers, be outfitted with rails and a canvas roof in back as a cargo or people mover. or even with a closed box on back to become a field ambulance. However, I don't even want to know the price tags for these conversions!

You also said, "Let's give someone thousands of dollars to develop a specialized car to demonstrate they can drive a solar car shaped like a roach with tiny wheels and an entourage of support staff and vehicles to set a distance record of hundreds of miles. Where is the benefit in that?"

The benefit in that is that lessons are learned in such competitions about the technology and designs of the future. They also pave the way for more acceptance by consumers, and sometimes in fact, more demand by consumers. Look at the "Orteig Prize" that was won be Charles Lindberg for the first non-stop Transatlantic flight between NY and Paris. Was Lindberg's plane very practical for a commercial venture? Not hardly. It had no cargo space and didn't even have a front windshield due to the massive fuel tank. But that flight caught the attention of the whole world, proving that Transatlantic flight was possible and soon after airlines began regular Transatlantic flights.

Recently we had had the "Ansari X Prize" won for the first non-governmental space flight. It barely got into "space", by the definition of the prize rules. Now many private ventures are being planned for commercialization of space and orbital transportation. So, yes, these types of competitions are valuable.

Your other points:

1. Today I would like my car to be a work transport, and tomorrow I want it to be a pick-up so I can stop at the home center and get some moldings for a room I am remodeling.

Most most mini-vans, many SUVs, and even some light trucks fit this requirement today. Now if you also want your point number 2 in the same vehicle, well, its coming. We have hybrid vehicles today, that are powered be an electric motor. Eventually, when we have the infrastructure for re-charging electric vehicles, they will not need to be hybrids, getting their electricity from gasoline powered generators.

2. I want an electric vehicle and for fun I would like one with a lot of charge capacity. And 4 motors for speeding down the open road now and then. But let's say I am young and starting out in life and I can't afford $160,000 for an electric super car so I opt for an affordable car with one motor and enough charge capacity. To get me to work and back every day (being smart and conservation conscious let's say I live ten miles or less from work). A modular design would enable me to buy less now and upgrade as I go. Easy to remove motors and a drive train that is accessible to add-ons would be good design principles. We could have removable charge storage so we can adapt easily as charge tech advances.

Some of what you are talking about is being planned. All major automobiles manufacturers have Electric Vehicle divisions, doing design and research now for future products. But whether or not your "modular" approach to vehicle design is practical and economical remains to be seen. Actually, electric vehicles by their very nature lend themselves more to the modular approach you are talking about than internal combustion engines, with all their complex fuel, air, combustion, exhaust, emissions, and transmission systems. With direct drive electrics you basically have two systems, motor and coupling (to drive wheels) and power supply (battery and controls) which lend themselves very nicely to modular packaging.

As an analogy, look at the way electronics design has changed, from many special purpose vacuum tubes and point-to-point wiring, through transistorized solid-state and printed circits, to LSI intgegrated circuits, to modern micro-processor and other "modular" chips and boards. The PC being the best example of this: You can take almost any basic PC chassis and support systems and by changing cards, turn it into most any kind of machine you want, optimizing the features you desire, whether for game playing, communications, machine control, production and accounting, engineering, etc. Yet, due to advancing technology, it is more economical to buy a whole new computer when we want to upgrade every few years rather than continually changing components, as you suggest. This could be the future of the electric car as well, with modularity built in, not for future upgrading, but for economies of scale and configurability.

Hope the link works ... It looking promising. Germany because they have a partial hydrogen infrastructure. Not sure how long you can store the liquid hydrogen. Also - BMW is building 100 hydrogen/gasoline hybrids on the 7 series platform next year and giving them away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry6w3mRm-FM&eurl=

I sure hope that the inherent leakage in H2 storage can be mastered. Not from the danger of explosion as much as the spontaneous formation of hydrazine in the atmosphere.

Thank you all for taking time to answer and give your thoughts (you too guest #5 I hope you found your meds).

Yes I know there are some pitiful examples of modularity in some concept cars in the last few years (GM has a good one where you can remove the battery unit from under the car like sliding out a drawer from a file cabinet; but where they depart from common sense is insisting on leaping into fuel cell tech as the power solution when it is going to be quite some time before it is affordable. In the meantime the concept car could be produced with voltaic cell batteries and the carriage containing the batteries is slid out to change to an entire back-up set when and if necessary. On trips longer than the maximum range of the vehicle you could stop and exchange your carriage at a charge station which would be a nice side business for power companies and/or car dealerships.

People I know this sounds like "pie in the sky" talk but most of the excuses for not going this way are lame. For one thing most day to day driving is less than 25 miles from home so a huge range is not needed to make an electric vehicle successful. What we need are some investments in marketing to change our social structure. How about some ingenious use of the media for a good cause for a change? Movies are a powerful motivator look at how "The Fast and the Furious" changed the car industry and created the age of the tuner car. "The Bourne Identity" brought the Mini to America and very few people had even seen one before then. The EV needs a movie and some good commercials, celebrity support etc.

What I am saying is it is not a strictly engineering problem but the solution can be engineered by us as designers not settling for less and being vocal about it. We need some social engineering. I myself can't wait till all the oil is gone because it seems like we are doomed to stay in our present rut until then. We can be more activists in our own social circles. We can also put aside some proprietary issues and develop the EV as an open source project. I will be glad to contribute what I can free. The new patent laws are going to make it hard to keep our designs anyway. That's a good way to kill the independent designer/inventors chances of getting anywhere.

One other thing guest #5 you went on and on about trucks and whatnot. If we didn't have to have everything the next day or the next week we could replace the trucking industry with the Dirigible industry. Just think of the high tech GPS equipped and automated dirigibles transporting long haul freight. The social engineering solution there is we need to recognize " oh that item I just ordered on the internet I don't really need it I just want it so when it gets here it gets here" Life may be a bit slower but I bet you it will be more rewarding in the long run. Maybe we won't throw things away so readily if it takes a month to get another one.

Some of you may think I am a wacko or a troublemaker for having ideas like this and for trying to tell you we are responsible, personally I like to think of myself as a visionary. I try to examine all aspects of each item I design to make it as perfectly functional as possible and so user friendly that anyone can use it and enjoy the experience. See my new General thread for design awards.

Thanks again Rollin.

The answer is far less than we should my friend try to undestand all the equipment manafactures are working towards polishing of your Hard earned$ if every need is met in one equipment how do you think the manafacturers would declare hand some devidends to stake holders in the company and pay out hafety incentives to their workers in addition to workers pay packets and the Board of directors enjoy millions of $ as fringe benifits.Its people like you and me who shell out $s every second.

murali

india