Mystery of old engineering book

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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	Mystery of old engineering book 10/10/2008 7:58 PM
	Here it is the weekend again and time for an engineering oddity. In 1897, the city officials of Manchester decided to have erected 6.35 miles of overhead telegraph wires. The job was placed at bid and eventually awarded to the Milan Overhead Telegraph Co., Ltd, which agreed to construct the system for cost plus 15%. So, the Manchester city treasurer, a certain Silas McGillicuddy, was outraged when he received the invoice showing labor time cards for 7.305675 miles. Upon flipping the page he became apoplectic when he saw the Milan Company had been billed for wire enough for 44.566205 miles by the Bergen Overhead Wire Co. Seeing his good friend, PC Harry Martin, McGillicuddy rushed over and demanded that charges be drawn up. PC Martin, though a lowly copper, had been brought up in Devonshire and always carried a certain engineering book in his pocket. Whipping out that book, Martin did several calculations in his head (a talent of all the folks from Devon) and said, "Silas, pay the invoice. It's perfectly fair." What book did PC Martin carry in his pocket? __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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#3 "Re: Mystery of old engineering book" by Sparkstation on 10/11/2008 12:18 AM (score 2)
#15 "Re: Mystery of old engineering book" by Chankley on 10/13/2008 5:12 AM (score 2)

JohnDG Guru Join Date: May 2006 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover. Posts: 9684 Good Answers: 468	#1 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/10/2008 9:22 PM
	Wikipedia? There're loads of definitions of "mile" - I reckon some of the odder ones must give these numbers, given e.g. Roman miles (Milan). I can't spot the Norwegian connection. __________________ "Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#2 In reply to #1 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/10/2008 10:06 PM
	No Wiki in 1897. __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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Sparkstation Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand Posts: 4395 Good Answers: 230	#3 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/11/2008 12:18 AM
	Hello TVP45 A standard telegraph circuit is not a single wire, or even a pair. The overhead Telegraph circuit is a 4-wire system, which is placed on 2 insulators on one wooden crossarm and also the two insulators immediately above on the crossarm above. The diagonally opposite conductors are one pair, the other diagonally opposite conductors are the other pair. The unit of 4 conductors (The 2 diagonally opposite pairs as above) rotate as a unit, a single insulator each time they arrive at a pole crossarm. The system is known as quad conductors, and because telegraph linesmen became telephone linesmen later, and the rotating conductor system prevented "crosstalk" also on the telephone lines, it was retained. Thus the actual length of the pole line plus the droppers to the telegraph station at each end was multiplied by four, there being the 4-wire quad system as required to operate the telegraph system effectively. Thus there was no actual wire length anomaly. Later Telephone Carrier systems used the Quad Conductor system, with 4 separate circuits on the 2 pairs - and the 2VF (two circuits on a single pair) system was used for many years, neither duplex (Both way simultaneously) circuit interfered with the other duplex circuit on the same pair, although over distances of more than 50 miles the "hollow pipe conversation" (that's what the other end sounded like), became the norm. The above is from my personal memory bank. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have not been able to presently locate the actual book, and thus that is for another reader to locate. Interestingly, there were different telegraph systems over several years: In 1774, at Geneva, Lesage erected a telegraph line of 24 insulated wires, each corresponding to a letter of the alphabet. In 1808, the Munich Academy of Science received from Sommering a communication describing a telegraph containing thirty-five wires, one for each letter of tile alphabet and one for each number. Thomas Edison devised a full duplex two-way telegraph and then doubled its capacity with the invention of quadruplex telegraphy in 1874 Kind Regards.... __________________ "The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#4 In reply to #3 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/11/2008 6:32 AM
	Whew! When I posted this, I had a vision of you responding within a half hour with not only the book, but information about the authors. You're a hard person to stump. I tried to be careful to state everything so that it implied miles of actual construction rather than dimensions of the wire. Obviously the number of wires changes everything. It's not really a technical question but a sequeway to an interesting book. Does your memory bank really go back to 1897? I'm impressed. Cheers __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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The Prof Guru Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Western Australia Posts: 767 Good Answers: 58	#11 In reply to #4 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/12/2008 10:11 PM
	TVP45 - nothing to do with your very interesting question, but I am interested in words and sequeway is a new one to me. Have not tried to look it up yet (I will when I get home) but is this a different spelling of segue or segueway? __________________ If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (A.E.)
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#12 In reply to #11 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/12/2008 10:19 PM
	I thought it looked funny when I wrote it, but it was late and I wasn't feeling well (some bad porridge, I think). Anyway, the book may be found at http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=XPsOAAAAYAAJ&dq=munro+jamieson&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=XE_pUI-M8C&sig=bw5RUWc_FXfInoyYwG9tpk0e9zw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result If you love old machinery and tools and books as I do, it's a real pearl. __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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Sparkstation Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand Posts: 4395 Good Answers: 230	#13 In reply to #12 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 12:04 AM
	Hello TVP45 That book is presently a true mystery. I used your above weblink, and that does not give me the book itself. <"....More detailsA Pocket-book of Electrical Rules and Tables: For the Use of Electricians and EngineersBy John Munro, Andrew JamiesonPublished by C. Griffin, 1894Original from Harvard UniversityDigitized Oct 10, 2007 677 pages...."> I tried "Signing in", "adding it to my "Google Books Library", and did so (it is now added to my Library), but I am still unable to access the actual book. I have tried 3 Internet Browsers: Firefox, SeaMonkey, Internet Explorer, all the same result. Advise further please. Kind Regards.... __________________ "The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#16 In reply to #13 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 5:37 AM
	Sparky, I never realized there was any issue in accessing that link. Did you just try Googling "Munro Jamieson"? I've never really thought about my Google setup, but maybe I have something extra? Are you normally able to read Googlebooks? __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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Sparkstation Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand Posts: 4395 Good Answers: 230	#18 In reply to #16 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 6:44 AM
	Hello again, TVP45 I still am unable to actually read that Book. Thinking that it was because I am located in New Zealand and you're in the US, I tried a US Proxy Server, in case IP addresses outside US were unacceptable to that webpage properly, and the same result ensues. I am able to write a Review of the Book. I can see all the Chapter headings. I have added it to my "Library". I did try Googling "Munro Jamieson", and ended up on that same page, with no actual book access. There is not presently anywhere that the actual Book is accessible. I have several Google adverts, showing me where I may purchase books. Perhaps you have a deep secret. The "Mystery Book" is still a Mystery to me. Is there a different way to access the actual book? I am waiting to see if there is any response from Google, to the problem as listed on my web-feedback form. Kind Regards.... __________________ "The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
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JohnDG Guru Join Date: May 2006 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover. Posts: 9684 Good Answers: 468	#19 In reply to #18 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 10:20 AM
	For what it's worth, I have the same problem . __________________ "Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
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EnviroMan Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Gone to Alabama with my banjo on my knee... Posts: 5595 Good Answers: 20	#20 In reply to #19 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 12:05 PM
	Well, to be fair, he said in the title that it was a "mystery" book... __________________ Veni, vidi, video - I came, I saw, I got it on film.
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Anonymous Poster	#25 In reply to #18 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/14/2008 2:10 AM
	Try googling the title of the book instead of the authors. That got me to a page where I could read the book. Looks interesting, but I have to wait until I get out of the office to read it...
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Anonymous Poster	#5 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/11/2008 10:55 PM
	With a name like Silas And McGilicutty He had to be a scotish Jew so it had to be a christian bible
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Anonymous Poster	#6 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/11/2008 11:03 PM
	Soooo...is TVP45....going to tell us the answer now??
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Anonymous Poster	#7 In reply to #6 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/11/2008 11:48 PM
	Me thinks he just learned it! MR. GUY
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#9 In reply to #6 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/12/2008 7:53 AM
	Not yet. It's still the weekend and there are some world-class Googlers out there. __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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sb Guru Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2550 Good Answers: 103	#8 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/12/2008 1:20 AM
	Trigonometry - Loni __________________ Fantastic ideas for a Fantastic World, I make the illogical logical.They put me in cars,they put me in yer tv.They put me in stereos and those little radios you stick in your ears.They even put me in watches, they have teeny gremlins for your watches
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#10 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/12/2008 8:10 AM
	Anyway, the book is in Googlebooks, and very hard to read, but a real gem if you're interested in old technology. __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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Anonymous Poster	#14 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 2:59 AM
	Obviously you've never been to Devon!
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#17 In reply to #14 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 5:38 AM
	'Twas tongue-in-cheek, lad. __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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Chankley Power-User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: South coast of England Posts: 411 Good Answers: 36	#15 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 5:12 AM
	The problem seems to revolve around confusion over the length of a mile The Bergen company used the Norwegian mil which was 7 British miles. 7 x 6.35 = 44.5 miles. It seems that they oversupplied by a factor of 7. Presumably the Milan company used the Italian mile was 0.944 British miles. However this doesn't work out exactly. 6.35mile ÷ 0.944 = 6.73 miles. Possibly, knowing the treasurer was a crusty old Scot, they had an old almanac and tried converting the obsolete Scots mile (1.12 British miles) to Italian miles which would give 7.5 miles. Converting Nautical miles to UK mile gives an almost perfect match 6.35 x 1.12 = 7.3025 miles although I can't see why they would use these. I am not convinced about PC Martin's arithmetic nor that of the Milan company.
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TVP45 Guru Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4448 Good Answers: 143	#21 In reply to #15 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 6:25 PM
	No, it's not just miles but overhead telegraph miles that's different. I couldn't find any explanation for what all that meant. I'd love to know, but I can't spend two weeks researching it. __________________ "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
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U V Guru Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America Posts: 2045 Good Answers: 36	#22 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 9:51 PM
	Hello TVP45, I down loaded the PDF, opened it, the went to view and rotated the picture and all was good. Parts are hard to make out but looks like a lot of good stuff. Brad __________________ (Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
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Sparkstation Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand Posts: 4395 Good Answers: 230	#23 In reply to #22 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/13/2008 11:05 PM
	Hello U V Please advise the actual webpage and method of downloading the .pdf file. Unless Google Books are running Spyware, which prevents my seeing a link, there is none I can locate. Google has not yet bothered to reply to my feedback Webform, although I did advise them of my Email address for their reply. Kind Regards.... __________________ "The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
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U V Guru Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America Posts: 2045 Good Answers: 36	#24 In reply to #23 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/14/2008 12:06 AM
	Hey Sparkstation, I clicked on the link above but my DNS is having problems here, so I clicked reload over and over on the opened link until it worked. Just did it again took about 20 tries. Just stubborn I guess. The PFD down load is in the upper right hand corner. Hope this works for you. 14 megs if it don't, and you would like, send me a message and I'll e-mail it to you. Brad __________________ (Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
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Duckinthepond Guru Join Date: May 2008 Location: Holeincanoe Ontario Posts: 2169 Good Answers: 27	#26 In reply to #24 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/14/2008 7:51 AM
	What browser are you using? __________________ Prophet Freddy has the answer!
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U V Guru Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America Posts: 2045 Good Answers: 36	#27 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/14/2008 11:04 AM
	Gasp sputter shame, Internet Explorer by MS Brad __________________ (Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
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EnviroMan Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Gone to Alabama with my banjo on my knee... Posts: 5595 Good Answers: 20	#28 In reply to #27 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/14/2008 12:05 PM
	There, there, Laddie, none of us is perfect! __________________ Veni, vidi, video - I came, I saw, I got it on film.
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Duckinthepond Guru Join Date: May 2008 Location: Holeincanoe Ontario Posts: 2169 Good Answers: 27	#29 In reply to #27 Re: Mystery of old engineering book 10/14/2008 12:27 PM
	_{oh dear ....tragic really.....mine "encounters problems and needs to close" but this only happens on Tuesdays.} __________________ Prophet Freddy has the answer!
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Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

#3 "Re: Mystery of old engineering book" by Sparkstation on 10/11/2008 12:18 AM (score 2)
#15 "Re: Mystery of old engineering book" by Chankley on 10/13/2008 5:12 AM (score 2)

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Anonymous Poster (5); Chankley (1); Duckinthepond (2); EnviroMan (2); JohnDG (2); sb (1); Sparkstation (4); The Prof (1); TVP45 (8); U V (3)

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