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The Engineer
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Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/27/2009 12:00 AM

Hello all,

Just one more post from me here on Global Warming today. This one is an article about how ice is melting much faster than originally supposed at the poles. I wonder if you all realize what happens when the ice is done melting? Do you realize how much more heat it takes to melt ice than to warm water up? All this excess heat that is melting the North Polar ice cap and the glaciers across the world, where do you suppose it goes when the ice cap is melted?

We are like a glass of iced tea on a warm day. The glass is nice and cool, but only as long as it has ice. Here's the article, for all the good it will do, I look forward to your predictable responses. -Roger Pink

GENEVA (AFP) — Icecaps around the North and South Poles are melting faster and in a more widespread manner than expected, raising sea levels and fuelling climate change, a major scientific survey showed Wednesday.

The International Polar Year (IPY) survey found that warming in the Antarctic is "much more widespread than was thought," while Arctic sea ice is diminishing and the melting of Greenland's ice cover is accelerating.

Rising sea levels and changes in ocean temperatures triggered by the melting ice also heralded shifts in weather patterns worldwide and potentially more coastal storm surges, scientists said.

"We're beginning to get hints of change in ocean circulation, that'll have a dramatic impact on the global climate system," IPY director David Carlson told journalists.

The frozen and often inaccessible polar regions have long been regarded as some of the most sensitive barometers of environmental change and global warming because of their influence on the world's oceans and atmosphere.

Preliminary findings from the two year survey by thousands of scientists revealed new evidence that the ocean around the Antarctic has warmed more rapidly than the global average, the World Meteorological Organisation and the International Council for Science said in a statement.

Meanwhile, shifts in temperature patterns deep underwater indicated that the continent's land ice sheet is melting faster than reckoned.

"These changes are signs that global warming is affecting the Antarctic in ways not previously suspected," the statement added.

"These assessments continue to be refined, but it now appears that both the Greenland and the Antarctic ice sheets are losing mass and thus raising sea level, and that the rate of ice loss from Greenland is growing."

Shrinking sea ice was expected around Antarctica, while Arctic sea ice decreased to its lowest level since satellite records began.

Special IPY expeditions in the Arctic in 2007 and 2008 also found an "unprecedented rate" of floating drift ice.

But the focus was on the erosion of land-based ice sheets of Greenland and the Antarctic, which hold the bulk of the world's freshwater reserves and can generate sea level changes of global scale as they melt.

"That was an urgent question three years ago and I think today it's now a more urgent question," Carlson said.

When the survey began in 2007, Greeenland and Antarctica's land areas were viewed as largely stable despite some worrying signs of fringe melting.

The joint statement concluded: "The message of IPY is loud and clear: what happens in the polar regions affects the rest of the world and concerns us all."

The survey also revealed that the melting has the potential to feed more global warming in turn as the permafrost melts faster.

Permafrost, the expanse of continuously frozen soil in polar land areas, was found to have larger pools of carbon than expected and the melting could unleash more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

The scientists also found that global warming caused substantial changes that were tantamount to a greening of the Arctic landscape.

Vegetation and soil were changing in the region, with shrubbery taking over grassland and tree growth shifting according to changing snowfall, while insect infestation increased and species move from lower latitudes into polar regions.

Those shifts also disrupted native animals, hunting and local livelihoods, while building was taking place in previously uninhabited areas, the scientists found.

The survey around both poles was the first of its kind for half a century, revisiting areas that have not been seen since the 1950s and mobilising 10,000 scientists around the world.

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#1

Re: Scientists find bigger than expected polar ice melt

02/27/2009 12:13 AM

I don't suppose anyone today doubts that Global Warming is taking place. The question is, is there anything we can do about it? And the answer is...probably not.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Scientists find bigger than expected polar ice melt

02/27/2009 1:06 AM

I am not a believer in GW but am strongly against pollution in any form.

Yes pollution can be reduced - molecule by molecule.

Will the fragile economy survive the cleaning process? - probably not.

The peoples of the world has a choice:-

A clean environment and no money or A polluted environment with no money.

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#4
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Re: Scientists find bigger than expected polar ice melt

02/27/2009 11:09 AM

I agree that pollution should be reduced. Unfortunately, it will not prevent climate change. Even more unfortunately, if the fragile economy cannot survive the cleaning process, the cleaning will not be done.

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#3

Re: Scientists find bigger than expected polar ice melt

02/27/2009 4:13 AM

there are scientists that claim that most of the warming in not resulting by greenhouse effect,they claim it results from the earth passing through the spiral arms of the milky way ,they claim that there are enough evidences for global warming bilions of years ago that matched the passing earth through the milky way's arms.

But wouldn't is be wiser to give a chance to prof. Salter's vision of a fleet that turns ocean water into clouds wich will reduce sun's radiation absobtion by the seas?

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Guru

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#5

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 10:04 AM

There has been evidence of equatorial countries seeing cooler winters resulting in unheard of deaths from uncharacteristic freezing. In Brazil many people have suffered this fate in recent years. Call it what you choose but there is a climatic issue in effect and I doubt that there is anything that can be done to change it.

My belief is that this is a normal cycle of the Earth's climate. The issue of pollution has likely speed-ed up this cycle but is probably not the culprit. A clean Earth does not mean a stable Earth.

We should clean up our mess for those who will follow us. Our children and grandchildren will suffer for our mistakes but their grandchildren could see a cleaner planet.

But don't expect that to have any effect on climate. We will freeze for a while and depend upon technology to see us through for a few decades, then our progeny will be complaining about the heat again. Okay, it may be more like a couple of hundred years, but who's counting? We'll all be memories by then.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 1:25 PM

It's not about belief its about science. The science is clear. All the major scientific organizations have acknowledged that global warming is real and caused by man. You are free to believe anything you want, just don't delude yourself into believing your beliefs have any relevance outside of your head.

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#7
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Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 1:47 PM

Well I have so much free space inside my head that my beliefs get lonely and escape from time to time.

I am not saying that I don't believe in global warming, I just think it is, at least partially, natural. We have just helped it along.

I am not a scientist and I will not try to force this idea on anyone, but it makes sense to me.

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#8
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Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 1:58 PM

Well said (written?). I too have so much space in my head that my beliefs get lonely and escape from time to time. What can we do?

Now, I am a scientist and have researched this (Global Warming) a lot. It's true that there are natural fluctuations in temperature, however the scale of these fluctations are usually 1000s of years and only a few degrees.

We are on pace for 10 times the temperature change in a 10th the time.

Statistically, that's the equivalent of meeting a 60 foot tall person. The people who argue that global warming is a natural effect are basically saying "People vary in height naturally and some people are very tall". Well, yes that's true, but not 60 feet tall right? I mean, that is obviously not natural. Thus is the problem with Global Warming "Debate", the truth is there is no debate, just people who are confusing the scales involved.

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#9
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Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 2:39 PM

Point taken. Size (scale) matters.

But still there is nothing to be done to rectify this disaster in our lifetime. Not to say that we shouldn't do all that we can, but where to start and how do we convince others? Other people as well as other countries?

We have become so dependant on all of the things that are killing our planet that I wouldn't know what to do first. Every action taken will have a great impact on society as a whole. How do we prepare people for these changes?

We have taken time to put things wrong and it wasn't noticeable until it was upon us, now we must make very noticeable changes to fix things.

Periculum in mora.( it's dangerous to delay)

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 3:45 PM

I agree. Nothing can be done to rectify this disaster in our lifetime. We can only act to mitigate the damage.

It's the denial we need to eradicate. This cancer of society that manifests itself as a refusal to see our own part in anything bad that happens in this world. Poverty? Not my fault. Disease? Not my fault. Altering Climate? Not my fault. Poor Education? Not my fault.

It's always our fault. Humanity is a living breathing organism that can't be seperated into individual pieces. We are evolved from pack animals and our nature is empathy. Denial is our way of shelving our empathy. It's unnatural and ultimately only leads to trouble. I'm not saying we shouldn't have differences in wealth, that's fine (and natural (social hierchy)), however, things are seriously unnatural when someone can pay 20 million dollars on a painting while others starve.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 4:07 PM

...and the melting of Greenland's ice cover is accelerating.

Far from me the idea to start a controversy, but those who named it Greenland had a reason. And it was some 1000 years ago.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

03/01/2009 12:06 AM

Maybe you should pick up a history book, or at the very least bother to read the wikipedia article on Greenland.

From AD 986, it was colonized by Icelanders in two settlements on fjords near the southwesternmost tip of the island. The settlements, such as Brattahlid, thrived for centuries but disappeared sometime in the 1400s, at the time of one given date for the outbreak of the Little Ice Age.

You see, the only Green parts of Greenland back in the "warmer" period around 1000AD were at the shore of an inlet and the very southern tip. In fact, Greenland hasn't been ice-free for over one hundred thousand years at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_ice_sheet

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#15
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Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

03/01/2009 9:29 AM

Before replying to your posting, I haven't read ALL THREE of your postings on the same subject, global warming, but now I have so I am asking myself: Do you prepare yourself for a public debate on global warming and are looking for possible arguments (on both sides)?

No need to reply, I think I know your answers.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

03/01/2009 3:52 PM

I see, so your suggesting that I'm closed minded by telling me you know what I think already and that I should not respond to your question because you already know my answer.

Do you see the irony in that?

Don't tell me, I know answer already.

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#12

Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

02/28/2009 7:05 PM

Roger,

Why is it that when something is known in science, there is such a long lag time before it gets to public consciousness? We're talking five years to a decade for fundamental health issues (like we're not equipped to metabolize trans fat so sucking it back is not such a great idea) and we're talking two decades or more for anything with political/economic significance (like climate change) where there's motive to fight the fact with fiction.

So here we are, everybody's going "green" now in a furor to do something that had to be done long ago, and it wasn't. Not saying we shouldn't reduce our personal footprint or whatever, and maybe it isn't futile to do so at this date. My optimism about this has slipped quite a bit. I feel we are urgently pretending that our too late half measures are somehow going to cut it. Maybe they will, maybe they will.., oh, f___ the arctic has melted and climate's gone to hell in a handbasket. ooops.

The catastrophe is already breathing down our necks. When are we going to talk about measures to deal with catastrophe? This is the kind of thing that should be informing every infrastructure plan. Every load calculation, every drainage plan, the works, it all has to be reconsidered for more extreme values, or enormous effort will be wasted on systems that get trashed.

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#14
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Re: Scientists Find Larger Than Expected Polar Ice Melt

03/01/2009 12:31 AM

I think the problem is it took 20 years to know for sure. By the time the evidence was truly indisputable (around the late 90s), people had too much of an emotional stake in their side of the arguement, so they buried their heads in the sand instead of admitting their mistake and moving on. This is typical, what unlocks the stalemate is the new generation that comes in doesn't have a stake in either side of the argument and so can take a position based on the facts, and so sees the obvious and acts on it.

Global Warming is a forgone conclusion. Now all we can do is mitigate the damage. You might as well enjoy the show. You're going to see things climate wise that no other generation of men have ever seen. Hell, you may live to see an ice free north polar ocean!

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