The McMaster-Carr catalogue if UPS survived.

Otherwise Machinery's Handbook.

If the Boy Scout Handbook, I vote for the old Scout Field Book.

The back catalogue of Mother Earth News; Making shaping treating of steel, Popular Mechanics do it yourself encyclopedia (circa 1950's) Chemical technician ready reference, CRC manual, and a good statistics text.

milo

How to find Iron and make it into Steel. I wondered if there was a book by that title?

What do we need to know?{p] For instance, I've never found any metal in the ground and turned it into anything.p] There is probably a good reading list out of MIT.

My wife says it is MIT, Harvard, and NC State, of engineering schools that are likely to have the best Reading Lists.

I am certain Milo is on the right track, since he immediately mentions steel, as something important to know about.

1. Machinery' Handbook

2. Making Shaping and Treating of steel; United States Steel Corp

3. 4 Volumes of Ingenious Mechanisms for inventors

4. Metals Handbook relevant volumes; ASME

5. Practical gear design, Darle Dudley

6. Feynman's Lectures on Physics

I can make whiskey. In the scenario discussed, that might even be one of the most valuable skills to have because good old alcohol is an excellent disinfectant and pain killer in addition to its more enjoyable qualities.

stand , be identified and join with us , with skills that needy , you're in !!

Pretty good trading potential too... I'll stay with you. (I can catch mice)

Del

protein is a good addition to a survivalist diet. ..

The Traditional Bowyer's Bible (volumes 1&2 should surfice, heck go for it, have the whole set)
Del

But of course!

milo

Well I'll start with the basics....as in the "Ten Commandments".

Thought that was The Battle of Marathon. I am going by what I remember of the 1865 book by John Creasy, 15 Battles that Changed the World.

I do like the idea of a recipe book, and think maybe that is why I like the Boy Scout Merit Badge Books.

It has been on my mind that aluminum from bauxite is available from most any dirt, if you know what to do with it.

When I was in Community College I did attempt to learn Geology, but as much as I was interested and no matter that I actually went to class, the teacher was really about the worst teacher I ever tried to learn from.

Hey, maybe to provide a great education to as many as possible internationally, some classrooms ought to be filmed, and others presented as filmed!

Right now there ought to be a great deal of cheap television equipment available due to the US digital mandate that has made analog obsolete without converter boxes.

If I had the money I'd buy all that old stuff up along with all the cheap tvs and drop it around the world and transmit the best educational tv I could find to them little flickering boxes.

The battle at the plains of Marathon was a largely Athenian victory over a Persian invasion in 490 BC, ten years prior to the naval battle at Salamis. At Marathon, the Persians were attempting to invade from the sea, and were thrown back into the sea by a small force of Athenians helped by an even smaller force from Platea. The Spartans couldn't be bothered, the phase of the moon wasn't right.

After Marathon, the Persians retreated and there was a plan for another invasion, but the Persian king Darius died, and it was a while before the new king, Xerxes, could stabilize control and then turn his attention back to Greece. In the meantime, the Athenians discovered silver in Mt. Laurens, and the rest, as recounted in my previous post, is history.

BTW, it was Xerxes' Persians who fought the Spartans at Thermopylae, as recounted in the recent movie "The 300" or something like that (didn't see the movie).

Well, Athens was a complete democracy - one (free) man, one vote. There was no constitution as such.

I don't think you can say that one or the other (Marathon or Salamis) battle was the more important. A loss in either would have spelled the end for Greek civilization, and with it, western civilization. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle; all of these lived during or after the Golden Age of Greece after the Persians had been routed.

Transcendian's characterization of the Persian Wars conflict as "important from a point of favor towards individual rights, over states' rights" uses modern terminology that would have fallen on deaf ears back then, but the characterization is accurate. A free man in Greece, particularly Athens, was the equal of any other free man. When the Greeks fought, each man bore arms and wore armor he himself had purchased. The Greeks at Marathon, Thermopylae and Salamis were fighting for their survival as free men. The people who were swallowed up in the Persian Empire were all slaves.

While the Greeks were outnumbered at Marathon, and Herodotus records the Persian Army of Xerxes as having a million men (likely something of an exaggeration), the reason that the Greeks could offer more than token resistance to vastly larger forces was due in large part to the fact that free men were fighting slaves. And the free men could see what they (or more likely) their descendants would be, in the men they were facing in battle. The Persian forces were largely ill-equipped slaves who were whipped forward into battle by sergeants who would kill any that turned tail and ran. You can see that such soldiers would have a morale problem. Whereas the free Greeks (who also operated a slave economy) were free to spend their time training as soldiers, philosophers, and the like. The difference was that the Greeks did their own fighting; they didn't leave it up to slaves.

It was this basic difference, free men vs. slaves, that eventually led Alexander the Great to conclude that he could conquer Persia, which he did. After the Peloponnesian Wars, which weakened Greece after its Golden Age, an entire generation of Greeks had grown up knowing nothing but war. With peace, these professional soldiers hired out to competing forces in the now decadent Persian Empire. A Greek general, Xenophon, wrote an account of his travels and battles called, "The March of the Ten Thousand." In that account, you could learn that in most of the battles fought across Persia, the combatants were groups of Greek mercenary cores and local Persian slave soldiers. In battle after battle, the slaves ran off or were killed, and the battles ended up being between two groups of Greek mercenaries, fighting for their customers. It was this account that fired Alexander with the idea to take on Persia.

For the historically unschooled, we are talking here about the time period 500 - 300 BC. Note this is around one thousand years before Islam conquered the Middle East. And yet, fourteen centuries after Islam overran the Middle East, you had the same sort of cultural conflict between east and west as back during the Persian Wars, a full twenty-four plus centuries earlier.

I refer of course to Persian Gulf War I, where western forces engaged and routed Iraqi forces in Kuwait. At the time, the Iraqi army was the fourth largest in the world, and battle-hardened after an eight year conflict with neighboring Iran. You had all the same comparisons: free men, highly trained and very well-equipped, vs. virtual slaves who were hungry and poorly equipped with very low morale.

It appears that some of the less desirable traits of Middle East culture antedate Islam by many centuries. And Transcendian, with whom I often conflict, has nailed it this time: free men vs. slaves, individuals vs. the omnipotent state.

Something serious to think about at a time when the last best hope championing the individual over the state is under assault from a state hell-bent on omnipotence... (Check out my "location" info if you don't understand this).

Hi,

I think that this is oversimplified.

The main influx of culture and civilisation into Greece came from the Egypts after Darius conquered Egypt and forced all priests return to their native countries, including Pythagoras.

He had served for 20 years in Egyptian temples, these were responsible for measurement so he could learn what was later interpreted as his "invention".

And Egypt relied on slavery too, but nonetheless it had phases of predominance and blossoming.

So what is really causing rise and fall of civilisations remains to be solved.

The Greek never were really one people but many states that fought each other.

Divide et impera! Divide and rule!

And there was the cheating of Pericles with the treasures of the Attic-Delic treaty organisation. Pericles hat paid with state money the Athenians to vote for him, had spent much more than he was able to pay back after being reelected.

So he sent troops to bring the large silver treasure of this pre-runner of NATO into Athenian mainland. Naturally that robbery triggered a war, Athens won but was no longer itself, strong and prospering.

Then Pericles wasted the money with luxury (the big temples) and the big walls from Athens to Piraeus harbor. One more wall that failed.

Not as the Spartans attacked but by the illness (Pest?) that spread quickly because so many landliving people had taken refuge insede the walls, and as there was no sewage system you may imagine what followed.

Civilisations may die by seemingly minor rrors.

We may see ours to die because of insufficient education.

RHABE

We may see ours to die because of _ineffectiveeducation.

if you are interested in this particular piece of history then i would refer you to the writings of Xenophon, one of the foremost military historians of that era... But regarding the development and working of advanced metals and alloys; I am of the opinion that this particular knowledge would be more important than most, except maybe advanced mathematics and construction manuals, after all, what use is gold, steel, aluminium and copper if you cant build anything more complex than a lean-to?

Right authors but wrong book - it was "Lucifer's Hammer".

GA, As I recall the hero of this story saw what was coming and triple wraped his best survival books (many mentioned) and hid them in his freshly installed metal septic tank. Reasoning that scrap metal would be found before foundries were rebuilt.

My own choices would be 'How to Stay Alive in the Woods' and 'Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants' both by Bradford Angier, 'Back to Eden' by Jethro Kloss (herbology), and 'The Owner Built Home' by Ken Kerns, which details how to build a shelter with ready natural and scrap materials.

The way things work - ROCKS!

That particular book by Larry niven was "Lucifer's Hammer", a very good read, Larry writes hard sci-fi no B.S., Has anyone mentioned the great value of goates, they make milk, meat, clothing, are good pack animals, almost as good as dogs for watching the yard, and many other uses. Lynn

Goats - Very, very good points!

Good work, Chris. My wife keeps asking my why I keep buying books (I'm up around 8,000 now, and I'm quite a bit older than you from the looks of your picture). Up until now my answer has been "to enjoy in my retirement". This gives me another reason. Although, as I've gotten older my "buys" have increased in the subject of History and decreased in Science and Technology.

The subject of recovering civilization if it were lost to some planetary catastrophe is worthwhile to ponder. I will apologize ahead of time if this gets too fringe for readers here, but according to some, there was an advanced civilization (Atlantis -- place it where you will) who knew of their impending doom, stored for safe keeping, what they considered similar records to help instruct a future "recovered" civilization, and it apparently has not helped -- yet.

Apart from feeling a past existence as an American Indian, I admire tribal/native peoples closeness to "life" -- in any country. It is something we have lost with the industrial revolution and "progress" in science and technology. Having been very technologically and scienctifically oriented in the past, I now believe that the planet would have been much better off overall without all of these advances. Life would be, no doubt, harsher, but the world as a living organism would be healthier. The proof that "civilization", as we now define it, isn't really required is the very fact that "uncivilization" inevitably led to what we have. The human mind's inquisitiveness will guarantee a progression from any starting point. If it gets snuffed out completely, then it won't matter any way. Life is a HUGE cycle of this up and down. In Eastern thought this cycle is presented as a Golden Age which deteriorates into a Silver Age, which then slides into a Copper Age and then finally an Iron Age, which it is said we are now living in. Then the Iron Age leads back into a Golden Age, etc. All tied up with the idea of transmigration/reincarnation. The real purpose of life is not to become technologically advanced, but rather to escape this wheel of existence which extends into what some think of as spiritual realms, but are in fact just finer vibrational levels of Mind -- truly Spiritual realms quite above and beyond -- a whole other subject not suited for these forums.

Suffice it to say, I don't worry about preserving our current "civilization". There is a controlling, unseen power that manifests all we can see or know and the "busy work" of mind, of which science and technology are just facets, will always be around in this cycle.

very interesting. thank you knowledgeable friend.

There are many who subscribe to the notion that the Great Pyramid and subsequent rise of civilization in Egypt was a direct result of the transmission of knowledge from Atlantis. (also noted is the legend that the artifacts and library are buried on that site in subterranian caves)

If one takes the point of view that the universe, and everything in it is matter/energy, then those finer vibrational levels you speak of are simply an insufficiently explored energies. (I won't say unexamined, as I know that there have been some fairly comprehensive studies done, and documented, just ignored.. not PC.) I've never understood why science in general would not be more open minded about this field. it is after all, a mystery at the core of our existence, and inside our own minds.

Cayce (et al) informed us about the existence of an Akashic record, which surrounds the planet, and contains the combined knowledge of all that has ever transpired on earth, but one needs access to their psychic mind to access it.

I dont' believe that there is a controlling mind, other than US. I certainly don't believe that God would Control, as that would break the fundamental rule of heaven: Golden Rule - don't remove choice from others. manifest maybe, control, maybe only that which we don't. Only the shadow knows....

Chris

i believe the great pryamid is a marker beacon... navigational device..

One conceivable answer is that perhaps it would be better if Homo sapiens should reinvent civilization without going through old mistakes. New ones could be less destructive...

Knowing the answers beforehand may help in that area.

The Bible

Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers

ISBN

0071428674 / 9780071428675 http://www.mhprofessional.com/product.php?isbn=0071428674 http://www.engineershandbook.com/ Bowles, Foundation analysis and design Fang, Foundation Engineering Handbook Quarterly Journal of Engineering Geology The Chemical Engineers Bible - Watson H.E.

In particular, a book on where to find, how to grow, and, how to malt barley.

Dick and Jane would be one of my choices, since everything worthwhile I know, I learned in Grammar School.

GA. That brings up an important point: All these books everyone mentions require an ability to read.

Perhaps some pictographic depiction of the human body, with reference symbols (words), that would be easily identifiable, and useful (e.g.: a broken bone and how to set it), would be the best primer.

Ah, health - good snag!

There will be one big problem: easy to access metals except iron will no longer exist.

So either a pure (neo)-lithic culture will be existing or iron-making and forming can be maintained.

Iron ores are found on many places - good enough and some replenished by nature continuously.

Iron smelting and steel making is requiring some knowledge but not too much.

Some local groups are working on ancient technology to gain experiences. Some have success at the first try some will need considerably longer.

It takes near 8 weeks 4 men to collect the iron-ore in our vicinity (if without a car), it takes 4 men 3 days to erect the furnace and the prepare the charcoal.

Necessary additives (quartz or chalk) are nearby.

Then 1 day firing and maybe 1 to 5 Kg of mixture of iron and steel.

To be refined by iterated reworking - learn to be a blacksmith will help.

RHABE

You've overlooked the prospect of materials currently considered salvage and stocked as recyclables

There seems to be a missing element in this question...If, say, civilization as we have come to know it and love it, is destroyed or brought to its knees by some appropriate apocalyptic event (either sourced internally or externally), then it has obviously failed the survival test, and one must ask, is it worth reviving in the first place? If it has failed once, then, rebuilt on the same model, one can expect it to fail again at some future point.

So, let us assume that we would prefer to rebuild the "new, improved" version. Now we have to start talking about value systems, and if we allow for conflicting value systems in our new design, are we not sowing the seeds of our own destruction once again?

Assuming individuals with appropriate skills for wilderness, subsistence survival have in fact survived, are they going to have the time or the inclination to read the books you preserve? It is highly unlikely that one is going to pull out one's copy of the Boy Scout Field Book (the older copy, late 50's version) to consult when one is confronted with a hungry lion or attacking wolf pack...

tigers 1 settler 0

GA for your (and my) minority point of view. Jule Verne wrote about several experts finding themselves marooned on an empty island. They use prior knowledge to reconstruct a civilization (nitroglycerin included...)

Shame on you forgetting the be prepared lesson before venturing about

First, I guess, it should be this. Because practical knowledge would be more valuable than anything else...

The New Complete Book of Self-Sufficiency: The Classic Guide for Realists and Dreamers

http://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Book-Self-Sufficiency-Realists/dp/0751364428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242049127&sr=1-1

After that would come "strength of materials" books and "structural engineering" books, for we would be dealing with buildings and structures as shelters for some time. Then again, a book on how to construct measurement devices and tools would be essential

But if you want my perspective; I would say any book that dives into human psychology, for apparently we have to learn it better before we start building anything else

LOL - I was away having a cup of coffee, honest !

Why not just hire McGivver?

What Books of Engineering and Science would enable the rebuilding as quickly as possible the best of our civilization?

Probably the same ones we can use to re-build the worst. It would be interesting to hear what Gandhi would say of civilization today. He'd probably scream, go home, and say "didn't you listen either?". I'd best leave that angle, it might get a bit heated and off-topic.

I'm with cwarner, in that I don't think we'd have time to read many books. If the collapse is "Apocalyptic Riot", that could mean pandemics or techno-collapse leading to imminent starvation (consider, say, the dependence of food distribution methods on computers). Whatever the scenario, I'm guessing that the intended meaning is chaos/anarchy.

Bricktop mentioned books on where food-crops grow, and how to grow them. Good idea, but it sounds a bit too long term for the given situation. Even if I could hunker down and grow stuff, Mrs K with grinding stone at the ready, I don't think the rioting mass would wait for me to reap the harvest. A book on identifying wild plants/animals that were good to eat would be handy. Self Sufficiency (by john Seymour) is something of a classic. It's foccused on long term plans, but is a good intro read.

Meat would be the most practical source of food - long pork. The rampaging mob will try to kill you to get at your food stocks, so why waste the opportunity. "Alive" might help prepare the mind/stomach.

The volume might be a problem, but a print out of everything on CR4 would be good.

Boy Scout books sound pretty handy (although The SAS Survival Guide spent at lot of time in the bestseller list). I have a rather old looking book called "The Boy's Companion". 1961 I think. Some of the topics are a bit useless, though it's got some great pictures, such as the illustration on how to hold a gun ;

In order to establish good relations with non-Brits, I can offer up this snippet from the said book;

DRIBBLING

Unfortunately most boys make too much of dribbling. To hold the ball and dribble just to show how clever you are is foolish, and it is a very slow way to beat a man; a well-placed pass is much more speedy.

The real use of dribbling is to enable you to progress with the ball to a position from which you can either pass to a colleague who is well placed, or perhaps you can shoot for goal yourself. Secondly, by dribbling, you can hold the ball—scarcely moving at all—till one of your team runs into an open space, when you will release the ball to him. But—it is worth repeating—to dribble just to show how clever you are is mere folly.

The most proficient dribblers in any team are usually the inside forwards; this is obviously just as it should be, for they are normally the men who manoeuvre for position and make openings.

For defenders to dribble in their own goal area is not only risky – it is sheer stupidity. Do not be guilty of such practice.

The language is just so funny I had to post it ! My excuse is that it emphasises the need for teamwork. Best stop here, it looks like I'm dribbling too much

"I don't think the rioting mass would wait for me to reap the harvest."

I agree, however this aspect of a major catastrophe goes well beyond the OP. Certainly, one's immediate survival would be of main concern. So, I view this question to mean what knowledge would we want after things settle down, and it's time to start rebuilding.

God point - on looking again, the word "Rebuilding" is prominent. I'll scurry back and GA the seed post.

Provision of food would have to be the cornerstone of rebuilding. Without the knowledge of how to do that in a manner that saved time, we'd never move beyond basic needs. A good reference book might be one on how the early American pioneers moved Westward, somehow managing to set up homesteads. Being a Brit, my knowledge on that is limited to various snippets from TV film and documentary. The reality looks a long way from some of the more fanciful Hollywood romance.

A few years ago while waiting for food to be prepared I listened to a man in his eighties describe the descriptions of how things work his grandfather had given to him.

Including the recollection of the the grandfather having canoed from Minneapolis, MN to Des Moines, IA through shallow water lakes.

A great resource of applied science is passing slowly without notice.

WAY TO GO MR. Edignan!! I have been dilegently reading and waiting for someone to say "Foxfire Books". For those who are not blessed with being Southerners it is a series of books that were written by a highschool class in the mountains of North Georgia back in the '70s. They are based on interviews with the old timers that were still alive at that time. The books, I think that there are 6 or 7 of them, cover everything from harvesting wild honey to building a log cabin and, this is the tricky part, a chimney for said cabin. They are a survivalists dream.

The amount of knowledge that we lose in one generation is staggering. I can butcher hogs, cows and wild game. Replace shocks on cars along with fan belts and hoses and repair flats on cars and bikes. My son who is according to him smarter than me and according to his wife better looking than me and according to his mom is nicer than me can't do any of the above. He never had to do any of that when he was growing up. I am the son of a share-cropper and I am fairly confident that if I were in Georgia or one of the other deep south states, or a similiar weather enviroment (reasonable weather is crucial) elsewhere on this globe, I could survive for a tad bit longer than maybe my neighbors could.

However; with that said, I think you should all hunt up an early '70s (?) British movie called "No Blade of Grass". It will make you realize that you cannot survive on your own. There is also a book out there that I don't know the name of that I read in one of those Reader's Digest condensed books back in the '70's. Yeah, I know I am dating myself, but the book is about a small group of friends that are having a wine tasting in the cellar of a French castle when something happens and destroys civilization. They then endure killing starving people from the City (most people can't do this) that are eating there garden vegetables raw; fighting off gangs of mauraders and dealing with the problem of "going forth and multiplying" when there were only three women for about a dozen men. BTW, the leader, who happened to be the owner of the castle, died from what they suspected to be appendicitis.

Interesting topic and a great discussion; but, I hope I never need to find out the answers.

I second that! I too have been looking for Foxfire, not wanting to just jump in and repeat. There are 12 volumes, http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebooks.aspx all full of useful information.

I'm going to assume that we wouldn't be completely tool-less in this scenario. While there would be no utilities, I would say that the ability to scavenge the necessary hand tools (axes, saws, etc...) would still be there. These basic tools would suffice until technology rose from the ashes.

Eating and Healing: Traditional Food as Medicine. - Binghamton, New York : Haworth Press

Pieroni, A.; Price, L.L.; Vandebroek, I. (2005)
Welcome to Journal of Ethnobiology and Ethnomedicine
Journal of Ethnobiology and Ethnomedicine

"Identifying and Harvesting Edible and Medicinal Plants in Wild (and Not So Wild) Places" by Steve Brill and Evelyn Dean. Hearst Books

"A Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants: Eastern and Central North America" by Lee Peterson and Roger Tory Peterson (Houghton Mifflin

"The Wild Food Gourmet" by Anne Gardon, Firefly

The Handy Foraging Companion and Hedgerow Herbal from 'Judy of the Woods'.

Foraging New England: Finding, Identifying, and Preparing Edible Wild Foods and Medicinal Plants from Maine to Connecticut By Tom Seymour Edition: illustrated Published by Globe Pequot, 2002 ISBN 0762709545, 9780762709540 208 pages WFS Aide-Memoire to Edible Wild Plants [Northern Temperate]
WFS Backpackers' Wild Food Pocket Cookbook
R K Philp 'The Family Save-All' [1861]
Agnes Catlow 'Popular Field Botany' [1852]
The Essential Backpacker's Wild Food Cookbook
[ISBN 0 9544158 3 3].
100 pages / wire bound
Essential Survival Greens
Book / CD-ROM set.
[ISBN 0 9544158 5 X]
80 pages / wire bound The Essential Rabbit, Venison & Pheasant Cookbook
[ISBN 0 9544158 6 8]
94 pages / wire bound

The Art & Science of Dumpster Diving is well written and surprisingly full of good ideas.

Also, if you are looking for free digital old books and stuff, www.archive.org is an interesting resource.

Chris

Reading is a productive exercise when my stomach is full

If all systems tank I'll be staying away from metro areas until long after the dust settles

http://www.primitivism.com/self-reliance.htm

Good Link! Thanks!

And I keep writing Foxfire like anyone else knows - so here

Glad to see they kept going, I quit reading after FF5 or so. (recently updated for faith healing!)

I think it difficult to answer the question comprehensively without some consideration given to what your current talents are, what your locations is, what you can contribute ('cause going it alone is HARD), how you survive the first 48 hrs, 48 days, then consider 48 months. Hell, how you plan would depend on even time of year.

Am I off track?

Or maybe that is more engineering than we wanted to throw at this.

And take Shakespeare. As perceptive about the human condition without the contentiousness of religion.oops

You are right now within 3 generations of the total collapse of civilization as you know it. That collapse will be the result of War, Pestilence, Famine and Death that will reduce a population who neglects the basic dignity of Man. It has a much lower probability of occurring as a result of an extra-terrestrial impact. You still have a short time now in which to push it back for another generation or two, but this will ultimately be the cause of our demise. Once you allow the destruction to begin, there will be no stopping it until it has run its full course.

Isaac Asimov posed his solution by setting up the "encyclopedists" in the Foundation books to ensure the survival of key technologies, but without addressing the need to respect the dignity of the "common man" all your efforts will be futile and will only lead to replaying this failed scenario. Reference has been made to indications that there have been highly developed civilizations in Earth's past that have been destroyed by some cataclysmic event.

Science will return as a response to our need for food, water, shelter, and medicine, it does not need to be "preserved". What is most critically needed is a record of our failure as a species to control our natural tendency to violence and selfishness. Why are we more ready to spend large sums on a war against a starving population in the Mid East than on a far cheaper irrigation project that would allow them to support themselves? This is a far more critical need for the survivors to address as they begin rebuilding. I respond to e-mail to oertg@aol.com within a day or two.

thats excellent.. dont' hold back. You see things pretty clearly.

GA.