Leaf Blower on Yatch

CR4 Home | General Discussion | General Discussion

60 comments

Rate

Tech Junkie Participant Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4	Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/20/2009 11:18 PM
	Hello All, I have a question that has been bugging me for a while now ..... If you mount a leaf blower on a yatch facing the sail. Would you gain any more speed? Kind Regards Tech Junkie
	Register to Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Join CR4, The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion!

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

#5 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by Anonymous Poster on 05/21/2009 12:17 AM (score 3)
#8 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by charsley99 on 05/21/2009 8:24 AM (score 2)
#16 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by MarkTheHandyman on 05/22/2009 4:49 AM (score 2)
#24 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by Yusef1 on 05/22/2009 10:35 AM (score 2)
#40 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by MarkTheHandyman on 05/23/2009 4:44 AM (score 5)
#58 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by Blink on 09/20/2009 2:11 AM (score 2)

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!

#7 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by PWSlack on 05/21/2009 3:08 AM (score 1)
#19 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by Hooker on 05/22/2009 9:14 AM (score 1)
#22 "Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch" by DaveB on 05/22/2009 9:39 AM (score 1)

lyn Guru Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 42355 Good Answers: 1693	#1 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/20/2009 11:23 PM
	Maybe, until you got to the end of the extension cord. Get a life!
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)

Tech Junkie Participant Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4	#2 In reply to #1 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/20/2009 11:31 PM
	I had a petrol leaf blower in mind buddy......
	Register to Reply

lyn Guru Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 42355 Good Answers: 1693	#3 In reply to #2 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/20/2009 11:35 PM
	Then the answer would be maybe, until you ran out of petrol, buddy. Get a life. And, I'm not your buddy!!!!!!!!!!
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)

Tech Junkie Participant Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4	#6 In reply to #3 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/21/2009 1:00 AM
	Thanks Buddy
	Register to Reply

Davek1 Associate Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 28 Good Answers: 1	#20 In reply to #6 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 9:21 AM
	I love your sense of humor, some of these folks take themselves waaaaay to seriously!! Have fun, learn by asking and g'day. Dave, dkimmel@300below. __________________ Dave
	Register to Reply

babybear Guru Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA/Europe Posts: 4547 Good Answers: 68	#35 In reply to #20 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 8:08 PM
	Hello Davek1, Welcome on your first post! And a friendly warning.......................It is not a good idea to publish your email in open forum. It may well collect spam! If you decide to remove it get in touch with Admin of CR4 and ask them to remove it, after telling them the thread and post number. Take care and good luck, bb __________________ Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=\|O\|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
	Register to Reply

ky Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia Posts: 3721 Good Answers: 74	#12 In reply to #3 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 1:42 AM
	A bit grumpy today dude, chum, pal? __________________ The Twain Has Met
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)

Anonymous Poster	#5 In reply to #2 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/21/2009 12:17 AM
	If the blower is on the same boat, then no. The scenario is akin to trying to lift yourself up by pulling on your hair ..... Newton's third law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Do a little brain exercise. Imagine the blower on a second boat blowing onto the first. Both would move apart unless fixed independently. Now consider the blower on the same boat - it would simply try to rip it in half.
	Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)

Go to Next Good Answer

MarkTheHandyman Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1265 Good Answers: 14	#16 In reply to #5 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 4:49 AM
	Hi, Guest! Glad to read the answer's no. Good to know that the fan creates no pressure difference past the sail, because they're both on the same boat. I guess there's no point in mounting an engine on the boat to drive a propeller either. Mark
	Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)

Go to Next Good Answer

Anonymous Poster	#18 In reply to #16 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 8:13 AM
	the propeller would be pushing on the water causing the boat to go forward. The leave blower is pushing on the air causing the boat to go backwards but not that fast because there is a sail in the way of the air flow.
	Register to Reply

MarkTheHandyman

Guru

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Toronto Ontario Canada

Posts: 1265

Good Answers: 14

#40
In reply to #18

Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch

05/23/2009 4:44 AM

Hi, Guest!

That sounds pretty sensible; except wind doesn't blow a sail to push a boat forward (except in extremely minor cases with an aft wind against the stern). Sail boats are not pushed by the wind.

A sail is an airfoil. Air going over the bellied forward side of the sail moves more slowly past the sail than air over the back because it has a longer way to travel (all the way over the sail, which does not impede the wind in places where it doesn't project. This means that the air pressure on the for'd side of the sail is lower than on the backside; and the boat is literally sucked forward by the pressure difference. Its keel and length fight the sideways motion of this sucking process, and the result is translated into forward motion.

The exact same process is used to provide motion to turbine blades in steam engines and jets. Air or steam blowing past the blades --each one of which is a small airfoil-- cause a low-pressure area on the longer side of the airfoil that sucks that airfoil in the direction of the lower pressure.

Considering the air blower as an active jet blowing the boat in the wrong direction means it has been placed to ignore the potential power offered by the sails. Reposition your blower to act across the airfoil (sail) at an angle that assures a well-bellied sail, and the boat will move in the proper direction.

Mark

The force that the wind transfers to the sails actually makes a boat move forward for much the same reason a plane flies. If you were to look down on a sailboat from a helicopter you would see what looks like an airplane's wing, except standing on end.

The air moving across the sails, like air moving across an airplane wing, creates a force called lift. A small amount of this force aims aft and actually pushes the boat forward and some of the force is lost due to friction as it moves over the sail. However, most of the force is sideways which tends to make the boat move sideways away from the wind.

The keel or centerboard keeps the boat from being pushed sideways by the wind. The resistance from the hull and the keel translate the lifting force to forward motion.

Go to Next Good Answer

Blink Guru Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4484 Good Answers: 246	#58 In reply to #40 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 09/20/2009 2:11 AM
	I'd mentioned an earlier thread in a previous post in this one. This is the thread, in which a remarkably large amount of utter nonsense is put forth. The official answer is incorrect, although the writer of the question waffles after having talked to a friend apparently. What you have said here is correct. Even if the blower is facing forward, the boat's direction can be forward if the sail receiving the airflow is a spinnaker, which effectively acts like a thrust reverser. With the blower facing sideward and a conventional (thin airfoil) sail trimmed as if for a for broad reach (wind abeam) the sail will turn the airflow rearward, and cause the boat to move forward. If the blower is facing rearward, the sail will act to impede the airflow rearward, and the boat will "sail" somewhat less efficiently than it would if you simply ditched the sail and used the leaf blower airboat style. It takes a quite special set of conditions for the sailboat not to be moved one way or the other. Even if the sail is a barn door, onto which the blower throws air from abaft, that air will make its way around the barn door and cause the boat to move aft (at very low efficiency, with most of the blower's energy going into stirring air and raising its temperature). The overall thrust and its direction depends upon the net mass airflow around the boat cause by the blower. With the blower facing forward, there is some sail shape and size between spinnaker and barn door that causes a net effective mass airflow of zero. Otherwise, the boat must move, unless one believes that the energy imparted by the leaf blower magically disappears into the ethers. While rambling here: very fast sailboats (those which can sail at multiples of wind speed) sail at very small apparent wind angles -- in other words the apparent wind is always not far of the nose of the boat. This means that your statement above, "However, most of the force is sideways which tends to make the boat move sideways away from the wind." is especially true. In my Windrocket, sailing with perfect trim on a (true) beam reach the wind was 15 degrees off the nose, meaning that the side force was remarkably high (requiring me to be perched 10 feet out from the centerline, flying above the water) and that the force forward was about 1/4 of that acting on the on the sail (wing). A consequence of this is that the underwater foils were also experiencing high forces, high lift, and therefore high drag. Given just the right conditions, I could expect sonoluminescence and foil damage from cavitation on the low pressure side of the foils (although I 1. never got the boat going fast enough, and 2. even at lower speeds, my hands were full, so there would be no opportunity for observation of these peculiar flashes of blue light). __________________ There is more to life than just eating mice.
	Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)

No more Good Answers. Go to first "Almost" Good Answer

MarkTheHandyman Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1265 Good Answers: 14	#59 In reply to #58 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 09/20/2009 11:16 AM
	Hi, Blink! Loved the windrocket. Thanks for the pics. If you were hiking out on the outrigger, does it have a cockpit, or do you sail it on the beams? Where's the tiller? A few more pics would be appreciated. Also, I noticed that the wing has aelerons. How and when do you use them? Altogether a neat little ship, and as you can tell, one I'm not familiar with. For example, can the wing be made somewhat smaller with the same results? You also mentioned airfoils below the waterline. Basically, that implies that the entire craft flies above the water. Now THAT's really something! Talk about being built just for speed! Are there international competitions and such for your class? Is there an internet site where they can be viewed? Mark
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Blink Guru Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4484 Good Answers: 246	#60 In reply to #59 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 09/20/2009 4:37 PM
	Hi Mark! A bit more about the Windrocket: Cockpit: No cockpit. There is a crossbeam that supports the small outrigger floats, and you move along the crossbeam as required to keep the boat balanced only on its center hull, which is designed to plane. The boat is 20 feet wide and the (vertical) wing (wingsail) is also 20 feet long. The picture makes the wing look bigger and the crossbeam smaller than they really are. So when you've got it up to speed, you are sitting on one float or the other, with some of your body weight even further out, by virtue of hiking straps, under which you hook your feet. Excellent stomach muscle exercise. As you can imagine, there all sorts of opportunities for near catastrophe on tacks, because the skipper has to move 20 feet across the boat, while trying not to loose speed or seriously dip one float or the other. Wing aileron: This is really a flap, in terms of function, and serves to increase the wing's coeff of lift, especially in the lower part of the wing (where additional lift is easier to balance with skipper weight). The "main sheet" was only two part (i.e. 2:1 advantage) because the wing is pivoted at a point not too far forward of its center of lift. So not a lot of force was required to trim the wing, and the response time was short (you didn't need to gather in a lot of rope to change trim). The flap engaged in the correct direction simply because the main sheet was attached to it, and it was bungee centered... so as soon as you had any meaningful airflow, the flap would fully engage. So it is effectively used all the time. If you simply released the mainsheet, the wing would start to weathervane, and the flap would disengage, so in an instant you could go from fully powered up to no lift at all. (As you can imagine, if you did this while going fast, you would have to scurry in to the center of the boat to avoid dropping the windward float into the water. If you've sailed a Laser, you are probably familiar with capsizing to windward.) (I was prepared for this being an alarming event, with the possibility of the boat rounding up into the wind dramatically, from the sudden asymmetric drag of on float in the water, but the event was not as dramatic as expected.) Tiller: There were two 10' tiller extensions: one port one starboard. These rested in hooks, so that in a tack you could maintain control as you moved across. But after the tack you could move the end of the extension to wherever you wanted to perch (or more correctly, to wherever the boat forced you to perch) to keep it balanced side-to-side and fore and aft. Wing size: The average chord was 5 feet (6 feet at base, 4 feet at tip) so the wing area was 100 sq ft. This is small by small boat standards, but because of the logarithmic lift vs speed curve, was more than enough when the boat was going fast. I managed to pitchpole the boat (in fact, on the day the above picture was taken) and decided to reduce wing size thereafter, until I learned to sail it. (This ended being a long project, and looking back I wish I had not.) But for very high speeds, a smaller wing would have been slightly more efficient, while still having adequate lift to make the skipper leverage the limiting factor. However, at low speeds, a small wing makes for much slower acceleration, and puts you close to the possibility of the boat not being able to get up on plane (where the hydrodynamic drag curve levels off dramatically) which has the odd effect that in perhaps 10 knots of wind the boat would do 6 knots, but in 13 knots would do 30 knots. Acceleration in the right wind could be either breathtaking or terrifying, depending upon your mood. Underwater foils: These were just rudder and centerboard, with naca profiles appropriate for function. The side force, when the boat was going fast, was greater than the boat weight. The wing was cantilevered, free rotating, and mounted on large ball bearings from a carbon fiber post 4" in diameter. The bearing spread was 2', so the load on the bearings was roughly the skipper weight x 10 / 2, or pretty close to 1000#. The craft did not fly above the water on hydrofoils, but had the potential for brief flight using the crossbeam for lift in ground effect. (The cross beam area, viewed as a horizontal wing, was about the same as the original sail wing area.) This would have come at a later stage, after more testing. Testing.... arrrrrggggghhh. The downfall of the whole project. I ran out of money before I could get anywhere near enough hours on the boat. My intent was to both commercialize the boat and also go after the world speed record, but couldn't manage to get the funding together. (In this link I appear to still be in contention (http://www.windjet.co.uk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=56 - sorry, link no longer available) ... scan down a little... and perhaps in the future I might be, but I am up to a point well above my neck in the current project.) International competitions: There are not "one design" classes for speed sailing, although I had hoped to develop an actual one design class for racing Windrockets. Speed sailing is classed mainly by sail area (but in modern boats, there is not any advantage to a large sail, and recently the record was taken by a windsurfer -- which has happened in the past, too). The site linked above gives you a sense for the kinds of boats involved. Things like spinnakers are useless for speed sailing because you must sail at multiples of windspeed, which is not possible if the apparent wind is anywhere near close to astern. Speed sailing is an interesting world with some very interesting boats, and some interesting physics that almost appear to support perpetual motion, with very fast boats actually "sailing on their own wind". (The Windrocket would accelerate faster as the boat moved faster, given a fixed true wind speed. The forward vector of sail force is greater when the boat is going 20 than when it is going 10, also in the same true wind.) __________________ There is more to life than just eating mice.
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Anonymous Poster	#25 In reply to #16 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 11:01 AM
	I am not sure how to respond to your statements, but, The answer is NO - blowing on the sail WILL NOT provide any benefit. Newton's Third Law - yes the blower will push on the sail, but there is an equal and opposite push on the blower (and if it is attached to the same boat) for NO NET EFFECT. Your comment (I can't tell how snide you really intended to be) about the motor and propeller is not a fair comparision. The propeller is pushing on the water, and the water pushes back. If you were to use the blower pushing backwards, and not into the sail, then yes there would be a slight benefit. (The blower pushes into air, and the air pushes back in the direction of travel).
	Register to Reply

Randall Guru Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK Posts: 5826 Good Answers: 322	#26 In reply to #25 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 12:12 PM
	http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/1560/Blowin-Across-the-Lake-Newsletter-Challenge-03-27-07 Ignore the official answer which is wrong: follow the rest of the discussion. __________________ If you spend all your time looking for people and things to complain about: trust me, you will find plenty to complain about.
	Register to Reply

MarkTheHandyman Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1265 Good Answers: 14	#41 In reply to #25 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/23/2009 4:59 AM
	Hi, Guest! I wrote the comment as a specialist on the subject (although any branch of engineering will tell you the same thing). Wind does not blow sails to make the boat go. The blower will work. The idea that somehow having the blower aboard will not allow it to work is complete nonsense. Of course it will work, because it's not blowing the boat anywhere. The fan is not being used as a jet. It's creating an air pressure difference past the sail. and even as ajet it will work, although not very effectively. This mistaken idea can be extended to say that having a motor aboard powering a fan in the water (prop) will also not work. You know the prop will work on the water even though it's aboard because you've seen it. I know it will work because I understand the creation and use of differential pressures. You've mis-applied poor ol' Newton, I'm afraid. Mark
	Register to Reply

ca1ic0cat Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 867 Good Answers: 11	#23 In reply to #5 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 9:46 AM
	That's what I would have said. Buddy. __________________ Eric
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)

garth Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NSW Australia Posts: 1101 Good Answers: 23	#17 In reply to #2 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 7:16 AM
	You would get a better result if you put the petrol in whatever propulsion engine you have. __________________ Dont get on to the roundabout if you dont know how to get off
	Register to Reply

jack of all trades Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 8777 Good Answers: 376	#4 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/21/2009 12:04 AM
	I believe this question has been answered on CR4 before but I don't remember in which thread. Perhaps it was the recent thread regarding mounting a sail on a car. Try using the CR4 search engine to find it, I vaguely remember the thread being quite long and involved. __________________ jack of all trades
	Register to Reply

Randall Guru Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK Posts: 5826 Good Answers: 322	#13 In reply to #4 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 3:13 AM
	http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/1560/Blowin-Across-the-Lake-Newsletter-Challenge-03-27-07 __________________ If you spend all your time looking for people and things to complain about: trust me, you will find plenty to complain about.
	Register to Reply

PWSlack Guru Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on. Posts: 32175 Good Answers: 839	#7 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/21/2009 3:08 AM
	http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#free __________________ "Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer

Go to Next "Almost" Good Answer

charsley99 Guru Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Jersey U.S.A. Posts: 1114 Good Answers: 38	#8 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/21/2009 8:24 AM
	You'd probably get more boost if you faced it backwards in the water. __________________ The last fight was my fault. My wife asked "What's on the TV?" I said "Dust!"
	Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)

Go to Next Good Answer

Anonymous Poster	#9 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/21/2009 11:54 PM
	Yes it would but you have to think in the term of a thrust reverser on a jet engine.
	Register to Reply

Blink Guru Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4484 Good Answers: 246	#15 In reply to #9 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 4:06 AM
	Correct. If the sail is shaped like a spinnaker, is works like a thrust reverser. The blower output faces forward, the flow is turned and blown out the back of the boat. It's more efficient, of course, to just aim the blower off the back of the boat, like an airboat. There was a long thread on the subject, (a challenge question, perhaps) for which I built a model (fan and all) for the skeptics. __________________ There is more to life than just eating mice.
	Register to Reply

Ed Weldon Guru Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: I'm outa here Posts: 1924 Good Answers: 196	#10 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 12:33 AM
	Charesly99 in #8 and Guest in #9 have the right idea about the reaction force. Blower influence on speed depends on the shape, position and efficiency of the sail rig and to a much lower degree the hull configuration. It also depends on the angle the air is moving out of the blower relative to the centerline of the boat. It can get pretty complicated. But you are likely looking at this as the blower lined up with the discharge pointing forward toward a sail. In that case the air blows forward and a reaction force like in a jet or rocket engine wants to push the boat backwards. Whatever net force of the flowing air is there to push on the sail is going to be less than the blower's reaction force because there are efficiency losses in the air flow. So in that case the boat slows. Now you start turning the blower to the side trimming the sail to the most efficient set and and watch the boat speed. Somewhere around 90 degrees the rotated position of the blower will start to add to the boat's forward speed rather than subtracting from it. Predicting that point is the complicated part. But at some angle the net reaction force will be aft instead of forward and the result will be a speed increase. You might be able to actually see the difference if you took a good small (like a 10 or 11 racing sailboat) out on a dead calm morning with a good GPS to measure speed and use a fairly powerful gas leaf blower. You might have to experiment with diffusers on the blower discharge to get the best results. But keep in mind that a human with oars can move a small boat along at a nice clip with oars driven by a human body putting out less than a quarter horsepower. BTW, I think this would make a great high school science project. If you do this set up some protractors to measure the angle of the blower and the angle of the sail boom as well as a level to confirm that the hull is balanced at a zero heel angle for each data point. Ed Weldon
	Register to Reply

Anonymous Poster	#11 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 1:14 AM
	On a true physics level, and ignoring the concepts derived from passive physics and theories... In other words, cut the school crap and look at the reality of engineering vs technology. YES, it would speed the boat, HOWEVER, a few changes to the leaf blower would need to be done first. #1: Decent sized "leaf blower" of say a Briggs and Stratton 2 HP engine (for a small boat.. or a 3.8 L V-6 for a mid sized luxury boat. #2: Intake for the leaf blower in front of or to the sides of the sail. #3: Exhaust from the leaf blower directed into the sail. This would inflate the sail at the very least, and with an inflated sail, you will have movement. OF COURSE, this would work much better if the air exhaust used a bit of water to help push the boat.. whether with the sail or directly against a solid surface. EVEN better yet, would be to force the stream of jet propelled water/air backwards into the water itself... Or 5 ft under the boat facing rearward.
	Register to Reply

the wrench Power-User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 163 Good Answers: 6	#14 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 3:58 AM
	it would probably work if you were to put an HHO generation system on the leaf blower motor......... the information is going to cost you...... the sacasm is free
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#19 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 9:14 AM
	What the heck is a Yatch? If it's a sloop rigged sailboat, those sails are not at all efficient when the wind is pushing from behind. They are designed to act like a wing, with the wind blowing nearly parallel to the boom. Theoretically, what you suggest could possibly increase speed, but negligibly and certainly not worth the power expended generating the wind. The gas used would be put to better use with an auxiliary motor when the wind stops blowing. Hooker
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer

Go to Next "Almost" Good Answer

LCAC32 Power-User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Diego, SoCal Posts: 175 Good Answers: 2	#36 In reply to #19 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 10:40 PM
	What the heck is a Yatch? Hooker, it looks like that chopper scrambled your brains. Army guys, huh! The Yatch is the latest version of the long lived "tch" line of sailboats. The most famous one is the KE model, often mistakenly called a "ketch". This new one is simply the YA model tch, which apparently is being called "yatch" now. No, wait, I'm wrong. I just looked it up on Wiki, and a yatch is actually a hybrid boat that combines the best attributes of a ketch and a yawl. They intially called it a "kewl" but that led to the inadvertant confusion of thousands of teenagers who couldn't figure out what was so neat about it. __________________ Science does not know its debt to imagination. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#45 In reply to #36 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/26/2009 8:23 AM
	Actually my brain was fried by Mil-H-5606 hydraulic fluid, which Chinooks are notorious for leaking. Now I'm wondering if my Columbia 28 was actually a Slootch... Thoroughly confused (my normal state) Hooker PS - your rotors point the wrong direction. That thing'll never get off the ground, err, water.
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

LCAC32 Power-User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Diego, SoCal Posts: 175 Good Answers: 2	#48 In reply to #45 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/26/2009 5:45 PM
	Glad to know something other than a hoover boat can't hold it's oil! And for the record, we get 6 FEET off the ground and/or water. With an Abrams on deck. __________________ Science does not know its debt to imagination. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#49 In reply to #48 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/27/2009 8:34 AM
	Yeah, well, an A model Chinook could get to 12,000 feet with a couple of, uh, cases of MRE's and beer on board. Now ask me what the grunts would really rather have? So there... Hooker
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

LCAC32 Power-User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Diego, SoCal Posts: 175 Good Answers: 2	#52 In reply to #49 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/28/2009 12:17 AM
	MRE's are over-rated, unless you're hungry. Ask the aforementioned grunts where they'd rather be when there's a loss of hydraulic pressure. 12,000 feet up, or 6? __________________ Science does not know its debt to imagination. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#53 In reply to #52 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/28/2009 8:31 AM
	Just can't let this thread go... MRE's in my time (known as LRRP rations) were highly coveted as opposed to C-rations. They weren't self heating back then, though, so we still had to find ways to boil water. As far as "loss of hydraulic pressure", don't LCAC's have redundant systems like aircraft? I never worried about us getting down as much as where "down" might end up being. Hooker <--- who never left one up there in the thin air!
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

LCAC32 Power-User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Diego, SoCal Posts: 175 Good Answers: 2	#54 In reply to #53 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/29/2009 12:23 AM
	No, you're right. Some of the present MRE's are not bad. Some of them leave you factoring in how long it will be until you can get an actual meal, before you eat it. We didn't get stuck on the beach very often, or at least not for long periods, so MRE's were mostly "optional". As far as redundancy, we didn't have it to the extent of aircraft, probably because we can just stop and fix it, land or water. Generally, unless in full battle mode, we addressed casualties right away, coming off cushion and floating until repairs were made, the back on cushion and back on track. Fortunately we usually had enough speed to make up for lost time. (Sea state permitting) Not me of course, I always flew by the book, never exceeding Maximum Safe Speed. Quite possibly the best years of my life. Most days I couldn't belive I was getting paid to fly a giant air hockey puck! PS: Thanks for your service, brother! __________________ Science does not know its debt to imagination. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

MarkTheHandyman Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1265 Good Answers: 14	#50 In reply to #45 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/27/2009 12:01 PM
	Hi, Hooker! If you have (had) a slootch, it's probably either an extra long ketch, a three mast rig or a tall ship. Isn't (wasn't) your clumbia 28 a single mast? Then it couldn't have been a ketch anyway. Mark
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#51 In reply to #50 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/27/2009 1:20 PM
	Yeah, Mark, the Columbia is a classical single masted sloop rig, so I guess I didn't have one of them new-fangled whatevertheyare's. But then I'm a classical kind of old f*rt. Just ask my young office mates, especially the pretty ones. No political correctness here. Hooker
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

cwarner7_11 Guru Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Panama Posts: 4273 Good Answers: 213	#37 In reply to #19 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/23/2009 1:15 AM
	Hooker- I am impressed- you are the only one so far to have brought up the point that a sail is like an airfoil (wing), with a low-pressure area on the leading side caused by the differential in wind velocity as it passes on either side of the sail. The sail "pulls" the boat through the water, rather than "pushing" it...
	Register to Reply

MarkTheHandyman Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1265 Good Answers: 14	#42 In reply to #37 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/23/2009 5:08 AM
	Hi, cwarner7_11! Well, be prepared to get impressed all over again, and check out my reply #16. I expect about a thousand GA's for it after reading your kudos to Hooker. Mark
	Register to Reply

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#44 In reply to #42 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/26/2009 8:17 AM
	Hey Mark, I'm basking in the glow!! Quit making a shadow!! Hooker
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Anonymous Poster	#21 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 9:31 AM
	Hello, It makes no sense to try and calculate the depicable differences between auto-blown and non-auto-blown sails, it doesn't even worth to think about it. It is far more intersting to investigate why a human being comes up with such ideas bugging his brains. Please don't take offense, but you sound more like a cartoon junkie than a tech junkie. Regards
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic

babybear Guru Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA/Europe Posts: 4547 Good Answers: 68	#39 In reply to #21 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/23/2009 3:16 AM
	Hello Guest, Personally I think your remarks are way of line because if, as I think, the blower will move the boat, it may well be of use in a 'real life' situation. I know I have had boats and pretty often thought about this, and am am pretty sure that most boat 'junkies' would have at some time? bb __________________ Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=\|O\|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
	Register to Reply

DaveB Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ohio. USA Posts: 578 Good Answers: 30	#22 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 9:39 AM
	I have seen some excellent instruction videos where doing versions of this (leaf blower, electric fan or bellows) works to speed up the boat/ship etc. You might carefully watch them to see how the conservation of energy and Newtons third law can be violated. The instructional videos were produced by Warner Brothers. __________________ Everything I know about opera I learned from Bugs Bunny
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer

No more "Almost" Good Answers.

Yusef1 Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ottawa Canada Posts: 1975 Good Answers: 117	#24 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 10:35 AM
	My cartoon hat is made from a carefully folded newspaper. My boat is not.....grin! Sails are not simple things...they have some interesting aerodynamic characteristics. You have to be in a sailboat to understand how it can possibly sail faster than the wind which is powering it. Modern sails can act like wings, particularly if they are built with battens like some asian junks, and they can generate considerable "lift", if that term is appropriate for a wing mounted on its side. (hmmm...I think a sideways "lift" would properly be called a "vector") Any wing has two components, "angle of attack" and "lift", and with sails, most people just think of the angle of attack part of the equation. A breeze hits the sailboat, the angled vane (sail) directs the airstream sideways, resulting in a force vectored in a sideways direction. This force can act upon the vessel to cause it to want to move, and the keel redirects this force in the direction of least resistance, which is to say, forward, or possibly backwards, depending on the vectors. You can add those vectors together and result in the boat actually moving up wind. When you figure the effect of "lift", this adds another variable, which is when it gets complicated. Lift is tricky to measure, since the angle of attack is so much more powerful, a lot of the "lift" is actually due to A of A , often from the virtual angle formed at the trailing edge. Sails are designed to be airfoils, and there WILL be a lift component, even though the lift in this case is in a sideways direction. Oh well, another vector to figure in. The "lift" will get you a few points closer into the wind when you are tacking. Bottom line....if I had a properly designed sail, and a heck of a powerful leaf blower, I could blow the air on the sail and get plenty of forward movement from the boat. __________________ If it was easy anybody could do it.
	Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)

Go to Next Good Answer

Anonymous Poster	#27 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 1:02 PM
	The only direction you can aim the airflow to get any assist is straight aft, not at the sail. But don't hook your survival onto making much additional speed.
	Register to Reply

Anonymous Poster	#28 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 1:06 PM
	No.....action/reaction
	Register to Reply

Keywalker Power-User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Valdosta, GA Posts: 361 Good Answers: 8	#29 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 1:57 PM
	This post cracks me up. I thought you were joking but after reading some of the replies including your own I am a little concerned. If this question has been bothering you why haven't you just gone out and tried it to see what happens? I am sure you will be able to find some boat captain that will be willing to go along with your experiment for the sake of scientific investigation. And by all means please put all rhetoric to rest by divulging the results of your experiment. Regards, Keywalker __________________ Always use protection.
	Register to Reply

babybear Guru Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA/Europe Posts: 4547 Good Answers: 68	#30 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 5:45 PM
	Hello Tech Junkie, This will always be one of those questions where there will be some who think there will be a reaction and perhaps more or less as many thinking there would be NO reaction. I am not a sailor and, just to be pedantic for a second, it is 'yacht' not "yatch", correct letters........... wrong order! LOL! I have in mind a 'tacking' situation, where the yacht can effectively sale against the wind. I think if we talk of a positive reaction via the yacht and water, rather than a negative reaction via the blower and sale, and any consequent reaction or loss or equalization of 'forces' .....Sorry for being long winded there, ......if the sale was not at 'right angles' to the 'blow force direction' it may well be possible to tack against the presumes reaction force of the sale? Of course what would be ideal is if someone could try this scenario out, with video evidence of a still wind and any speed gained, and of course there must be no current pushing the yacht either! bb __________________ Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=\|O\|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
	Register to Reply

Anonymous Poster	#31 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 6:29 PM
	Memorial Day week-end experiment! I have a sail-boat. I have a leaf blower. Now I just need a willing female and some soda in a cooler, maybe a sandwich or three. And quite possibly, a condom or two. Oh.. and a goofy hat!
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic

Ed Weldon Guru Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: I'm outa here Posts: 1924 Good Answers: 196	#33 In reply to #31 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 7:35 PM
	I'd also suggest at least of one pair of earplugs. Ed Weldon
	Register to Reply

babybear Guru Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA/Europe Posts: 4547 Good Answers: 68	#34 In reply to #31 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 8:00 PM
	Hello Guest Oh, I see,...................you fill the condom to bursting point,..........................with air, then aim it at the sail...MMM, different! LOL! bb __________________ Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=\|O\|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
	Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic

cwarner7_11 Guru Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Panama Posts: 4273 Good Answers: 213	#38 In reply to #31 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/23/2009 1:19 AM
	Soda??? On a sailboat????
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Hooker Guru Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgewater, Va. Posts: 2175 Good Answers: 119	#46 In reply to #38 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/26/2009 8:28 AM
	And sandwiches?????????? In my day, I hung a hibachi off the stern and grilled filet mignon, with an appropriate red, and brandy for dessert, in some deserted cove off the Chesapeake. And, did I mention, telling the young lady during supper that there was no way we could make it back home before dark so we would have to remain over night. Then breaking out the champagne. Hooker
	Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)

Keywalker Power-User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Valdosta, GA Posts: 361 Good Answers: 8	#43 In reply to #31 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/23/2009 10:55 AM
	If you have a sailboat and leaf blower I am sure you will have no problem gathering the rest of your needed equipment. I am looking forward to your follow up post. By the way, please join or log in so we know who we are talking to. __________________ Always use protection.
	Register to Reply

Snave Power-User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: S. California, USA Posts: 279 Good Answers: 12	#32 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/22/2009 7:16 PM
	The answer is both NO and YES. The answer is NO for the case when the wind is behind the boat, pushing the sail. This is called running with the wind (to sail with the wind aft and the sheets eased out). To gain a blower boost, the blower would need to face aft. The answer is YES for the case when the wind is in front of the boat, pulling the sail. This is called tacking into the wind or sailing windward.To gain a blower boost, the blower would have to be on the Windward side of the sail pointing down wind.
	Register to Reply

bhankiii Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: El Lago, Texas, USA Posts: 2639 Good Answers: 65	#47 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 05/26/2009 10:45 AM
	You will go backwards. Consider Florida swamp buggies (with the big fans on back). If you point your blower toward the bow (in the absence of a sail) it will obviously push you backwards. Since the sail is not going to collect 100% of the trust from the blower, the net force is backwards. Mount the blower on the dock, and you've got something.
	Register to Reply

Yusef1 Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ottawa Canada Posts: 1975 Good Answers: 117	#55 In reply to #47 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 06/04/2009 10:46 PM
	i concur, if you think of sail as a wall. a sail is not a wall. the sail is an airfoil. i would have to set up the terms of the experiment. like does it have to only blow towards the bow, or can you go a few degrees off, say 45 degrees. can i use my choice of sails does the boat have a deep water keel. is the keel capable of being jinked or must it be along the centreline of the boat. as to 'why' you would want to do this, well, perhaps there are efficiencies...after all, a helicopter will 'fly', but we still use wings on airplanes. i am sure i could finagle those variables to get the results i want. __________________ If it was easy anybody could do it.
	Register to Reply

MarkTheHandyman Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 1265 Good Answers: 14	#56 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 09/17/2009 10:33 PM
	Hi, Tech Junkie! You're gonna love this one! It's an aircraft, the "Fanwing", that provides its own lift and propulsion with an onboard fan gently blowing air over its airfoils, not a propeller screwing its way through the air to force passing air over and below its wings. Your leaf-blower self powered yacht just took off! The Fanwing flew for public view in the 2004 Farnborough air show, and is still being developed to carry cargo, fight forest fires, etc. (...With apologies to all those who already noted this website/link, or something like it in other blogs in CR4) http://www.fanwing.com/pix.htm Mark
	Register to Reply

ky Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia Posts: 3721 Good Answers: 74	#57 In reply to #56 Re: Leaf Blower on Yatch 09/17/2009 11:40 PM
	Very interesting. Thanks for the info. I'm not much into flying but just the looks of this makes my mouth water. Thanks for this Mark, Ky. __________________ The Twain Has Met
	Register to Reply