I know that perpetual motion machines are a no-no

physics are not earth bound.....you have to go to another dimension for the laws of physics to change

I may have been wrong in my statement. I think I meant to say the laws of Issac Newton were equally valid on earth and in space, but in space, there is nothing to restrict Newton's law of motion. On earth, an object that is moving will stop when friction overcomes the object's inertia. In space, an object in motion will remain in motion forever unless it hits another object. Sorry for the mis-statement.

"In space, an object in motion will remain in motion forever unless it hits another object ..."

The problem is (as you point out) the other objects. Space isn't empty - there are lots of little bits of stuff floating/whizzing about - mostly very small. Some will hit your object, and it will slow down (unless it happens to be affected by the gravitational field of something big ahead of it, when it may speed up).

That aside (ie neglecting other objects and gravitational (and other) fields), your "perpetual motion" is not worth anything unless it's going to do something useful. As soon as you set your "machine" to work (ie to do some work), it must lose energy - it can only do that by slowing, cooling or converting some of itself to energy¹. None of these is perpetually sustainable.

^{1 _{There are probably other ways, but none (as far as we know) that can do work perpetually.}}

Celestial Mechanics is based largely upon Newton's Laws, with a dollop of Einstein stirred in.

Which laws of physics that apply on earth do not apply in space?

Two differences I see in space is the general lack of a gaseous atmosphere and lower levels of gravitational attraction since in space we may be far enough from a planet or star to be affected much by gravitational attraction. Neither of these things nullify any laws of physics as far as I know.

I think there is perpetual motion going on out there.

Defining "perpetual" in relation to "machine" becomes an issue. In what perspective is the concept of "perpetualness" viewed? Man? Earth? Universe? The big Kahuna?

If you imply by the term "machine" that a collection of parts are joined together somehow to perform a function, any function, then there isn't much hope.

Even in zero G there would have to be some force in play to keep the components of the machine in place.

Wiki says, "A machine is any device that uses energy to perform some activity".

Where would the initial energy come from?

... not to mention that atrict between machine parts will perform just fine in space as on Earth. There will still be convertion of energy in heat and material deformation or wear due to atrict.

That's the beauty in physics. It just does not matter where you are.

I'd expect some strange effects when dealing with too big things or too small things. You know, dualistic behavior, mass to energy and back conversion, light bending around a big body gravitational field, time compression and space bending, this kind of pretty cool things. But it's alright, the guys are still looking for an unified theory for physics anyway.

Rgds.

I give up...

dictionary.com produces no results for "atrict"

and google's results show the word in context's such as yours ...

where I cannot resolve a meaning...!

Please kindly define.

Regards

Thanks for the replies. I think I now know why PMM's cannot function in space. I better quit while I'm ahead. This is a topic that could generate an inordinate amount of controversy.

Inordinate 'hush' factor instead of the desirable 'wow' factor!

Maybe I'm late to this debate or just off base but;

The current engineering belief solely centres on the idea that fuel is mandatory to efficiency and drive. Perhaps PMM's will be much more possible when our legacy overcomes this belief with faster than fuels optimizations in machinery. The other point is that "friction is detrimental to materials" only travels as far as the idea that materials can't regenerate under the power of room temperature; 'say hello to microstructure engineered machines'. (All what the nay sayers say applies to the old set of beliefs; its entire categorization dissappears in time and therefore can't mandate such short sighted beliefs.)

I like to applaud engineering for it's achievements not worship of it's rhetoric!

The problem here is not the engineering belief or the improvement in performance.

It is that the law of conservation of mass and energy and with the entrop portion (disorder that can only increase, and no, it can not even stay the same).

So with these two facts, the PMM can not exist.

Even if you look multidimension (which if exist) will draw the required fuel from other dimensions a la "The god's themselves" - I think that was the name if Asimov's novel.

We are spinning on an instant of a PMM and I will not ever notice it's failing; that's a fact that fells your laws! The process of everything is continual but that doesn't mean that something will not exist in it's process event time as a perpetuation.

Is the spinning wheel spinning at the same rate? Is it not decelerating? despite being in the space (without friction)?

BTW, the moon is slowly escaping the earth too.

Conservation laws are now 13.5 billion years old. "Short-sighted"?

It took thousands of brilliant people to bring them into creation with finally one or few gifted visionaries to craft them for use and you think I'm a little short sighted in overstepping the hard to define existence of our material world for gaining my theory attempts! Did they just magically appear years ago?

Yes, conservation laws appeared all by themselves. Humans did not invent conservation of momentum, they merely stated it mathematically. The universe "invented" conservation. Those laws will continue to be valid millenia after we're all extinct.

I'm going to scramble out on the limb of the tree your cutting off! I think the conservation laws are wrong because they only apply to energy and therefore do not take the rest of the actions in the material world into account despite being very useful for energetic work. But like somebody mentioned it's all about a possible understanding of the theory of everything! The invalidation of the laws of entropy is something I'll scramble out to someone another time possibly.

Thanks. You just gave me my new quote.

E=MC²

Hello Garthh

It's clear that you have good intentions, But with all the talk about pmm not working!

This is misunderstood for most part of the last 10 years, OLD NEWS.

The out of the box thinking moved past that point with the understamding of our natural world and computer advancements in programs 5 years ago.

I would like to point out that it's ok to ask questions! thats how most find out things that most don't even get woundering WHY or HOW things work.

kennynabb6@win.net

Inside or outside the box makes no difference. Does it work & do you have proof?

You & Brett Johnson insist on manufacturing controversy by describing various natural phenomenon as somehow outside accepted science...

What is the point?

How can we help you?

Convection is not a strange or mysterious force.

Hello Garth

Yes to the question of does it work and do I have PROOF? YES! now like I have stated in the past remarks GET THE DISC Then make up your own mind.

And the help sperad the word that there is a more cost effectiveness and pay out.

Remembering I have 40 of research into this combinations of world proven metheds, IT" s always been known technologies the HOW TO IS NOT. Thus my 40 years of how to.

" .. the conservation laws .. only apply to energy .. " - what about mass (E=mc²)?

" .. the rest of the actions in the material world .. " - take away energy and mass, and what's left of the "material world"?

Hi JohnDG,

Here's a bash at the theoretical your not really looking for;

The idea of conservation of energy only applys to the universality of domain but doesn't really hold domain over the universe.

Eg. What truly closed system exists?

So can it be said that every energy and particle involved in your process can ever be held as a useful item within your context or did you lose something with nearly every process? But you should be right to accomodate vast amounts of work via energy with those laws, it's not like perfection in universal domain is the mandate of a regenerative being in a regenerative environment. I would say with every effort there is a displacement; and we know the results of those displacements are not confined to singular forms of energy entropy; you might know it best as 'Play' or 'Slip' and it works part of the chaos and fractal theories!

But I did say it's my tree to scramble from the limb being cut off; which to you probably sounds backwards. It's a matter of trust and I've lost my faith in E=mc²

Do you have actual data?

or just conjecture...

I think proof of concept readily exists but how to prove it by form in the current scientific community is possibly beyond me; and that's asides from the fact that I am already proven wrong by the (primary) status the other theories have. It's a behind the eight ball problem that obviously makes me the speculator and science not overextended beyond it's understanding. But righfully it's my theory and I have the right to be wrong not only in climate but overall, and therefore you have the right to call that speculative. But conjecture is harsh and unkind reflection on theorization authority because I'm serious to these facts as I would like to present them in an academic distinction but suspect a future context and dismal reception despite seeing them as proven but not yet excluding all other theories!

Why don't you start new discussion

Interesting stuff, Jorri, Rodger Pink, standards guy & a few others will probably be happy to parry & thrust to your hearts content.....

Try this Blog

Yes data has been around in it's differant forms of makeup seperately but never the less works as one when takeing all the facts and merge them together all fit.

You have just mentioned that micromachines could be powered by room temperature. So, power comes from some place. And the machines use the power to do something. There will be some efficiency. Its not because you are not fueling it yourself that energy should not be dispensed.

In nature, nothing is created, and nothing is destroyed. Everything is transformed.

Not just powered but mainly, 'materially regenerated' in their environment.

This is a good answer! Recycled in the atmospheric recycleing of the air in a cone shape structure with air flows from top to bottom of structure. LOOPED.

kennynabb6, It might help your case if you would write coherently. 

Hello pantz

The facts of the Title should be the focas , NOT the disablities of a disabled veterain.

The facts speek to hum is really looking and watching, or is it the norm to lose focas on renewable energies and the envriomental problems.

The worlds best science proofinals have some type of disablity.

To speek more clearly about this plan ( not a ideal) this plan is in the construction phase of where to build it. Phase2 @ step 1 research and development.

now as a Entrepreneur inventer I am NOT A COMPANY to get the funding that is requeired from the DOE.

Think again about making fun of some one that you know nothing about, I had thought this site was for muture proffionals.

Please, find someone more fluent in english to help you write your posts. I honestly cannot understand most of what you are writing.

Kenny has had a stroke & does have some trouble expressing himself.

I emailed him some time back & received a couple of pages of a presentation. I did a search at the time. Seemed legitimate... The presentation didn't give me any reason to believe his particular endeavor would be successful, without some marketing help.

I didn't save any of it, I'm not sure why he doesn't make the presentation & cd public.

Truely you have said what most don't even think about!

In nature it's the simple facts that most don't reall wounder about.

Like why is it that when in a building with open doors or windows there is a slight breeze inside and after going out there is no wind, Ever wounder why?

When 8 naturals are combined and then add the 6 man made thermals in a cantament chamber what is the out come? PMM

Hello Brett

I have been watching this site for some time now and it's been interesting !

The insites some are dum founded and yet some really have some clue as to what & how things work. REAL open minded as to WHAT IF, or really out of the box thinking.

Renewable thermal wind is 1 of the PMM that has many woundering how it works?

Basicly the natural wind updrafts are the main none pmm force with a twist, it's housed in a cone structure that also ingages more forces together placed in order of power output that increases the other 8 naturals and 6 man made thermals.

This is not a Ideal! Rather 40 years of research in it's primial forms of heat that rize up and from a large area it's smaller top narrows at the top. this force is not depleating, because the heat after strate up ingages the man made thermals IE.

Cold freezers heat, hydraulic pressure heat, stored thermals in water at base rize, wind flows.

Looking for some good and hopefull people that really want to help our planet's enveroment.

Have a complet plan information disc to all who are open minded and can think about real sceince of the past 1969 Jr high school basices thermal, structure desgins.

OUT OF THE BOX REAL PEOPLE THAT CAN MAKE A DIFFERANCE.

kennynabb6@win.net get the facts and sperad the reall world need for this needed systems.

With our current understanding of physics, even the big machine called "universe" will eventually come to a standstill. Whether or not it is a cyclic series of "big bangs" which fades out like a bouncing ball bouncing less and less high, or other concepts going on, some time in the future, all matter and energy will be concentrated into a small ball of matter, maybe three atoms of hydrogen thick.

During the lifetime of the universe, all laws of physics must be equal everywhere. That's out current understanding, and no, that does not allow for perpetual motion machines. Nothing is perpetual, not even the universe.

If you consider lifetime as part of your classification then why do you consider a non-living item!

An 'instant of a PMM' can occur therefore your categorization scheme fell over!

An instant of a PMM can exceed our lifetime already!

I don't believe in the big bang theory!

I don't believe science is being served well by the current rhetoric that supposes itself to be the declared mandates.

If the universe is infinite could it not be considered a PMM?

I don't believe in the big bang theory either. The universe is supposed to be expanding in all directions relative to us so I suppose to all other Galaxy's also. However speculating on this the big bang or black holes and the answer to every thing is just to large a discussion for this forum and myself.

How can you say that ,latest child is Theory of every thing.There are lot of yo yo machines out side of our earth which are of precious use to us because of local gravity problems,we cannot extract any thing from them as they are crying all the time they are bulls on a bear run.Since I am on bears and bulls,I wish to impart a secret,if you can short with out bating a eyelid you have taken the first step in time travel,next you reverse you car without assistance of mirror or better still blind folded.Well time traveller you might already be there before me.Well we have sent a yo yo machine out side of solar system sending signals back to us at some expense of time,we must do now time balances like we did material balances or heat balances

Now Ron look what you've done

Released the hobbits with their unshaven toes & HHO generators

So far this is the only SGT [self generating thread]

Hello ronseto: The closest thing I can think of to PPM would be a micro machine that used some type of clock escapement that converted Brownian motion into directional motion. It is not an accual PPM but the energy available to do so is so large to the amount used by the machine that it would seem a PPM. Do to imperfect conversion of the Brownian motion entropy occurs and thus is not a PPM.

Just a philosophical point to discuss - If you subscribe to the theory that the universe is cyclical, that is, it expands only to a point, then begins to re-collapse on itself untill it initiates a "big bang" which reboots the universe, then doesn't its very existance prove perpetual motion exists for very large systems?

No. No proof of the cycle. Even if there were, there would be no proof of the universe not being a special case. "Systems" is a local term on such a grand scale. System (singular) MIGHT be applicable to the universe. But, to what other system on the same scale do you know of to compare it to?

Really, my dear Watson, this would require much more discussion than a couple of sentences... and most statements would be speculative. The term "prove" isn't appropriate in the context of the limitations of the perspective of the senses.

Hi again ronseto; after thinking about it some more here is my answer another more deterministic way;

The idea that PMM cannot exist is firmly holding to the second law of thermodynamics and entropy, so here's my invalidation of that:

Energy is able to travel in various forms and only some materials are more susceptible to the variations available. Therefore heat exchange and development has nothing to do with environment in the other contexts of energy transfer. :)

Done and dusted!

I have always approached the PMM dilemma as a relativity based one.

How long do you want it to run? If I put a big enough battery on a small enough motor it will run for far longer than I am alive. Once I am dead I don't care if it stops working!

So basically the workable principle of perpetual motion is to just use a power source so large it wont run out of energy in the realistic time frame of human existence.

There are known stars out there 2/3 the volume of our solar system. I think one of them aught to keep your perpetual motion machine running for a long enough time to count!

Thats perpetual enough for me! And no humanly defined laws are broken either.

Sir, The facts that PMM do work with a slight push from nature's natural thermal wind! This is well known from a sceince stanf point. Now the question is does it work in space? The answer is yes when combined with a solar electric drive simmilar to the hybraid cars.

The same is true to the RENEWABLE (THERMAL)= WIND POWER SYSTEM

PMM with a twist contanment chamber 8 naturals and 6 man made thermals,

Rethink the way we look at our world through a Jr high school student and be amazed to the possiblities.

kennynabb6

slight push?

That wouldn't be perpetual motion now would it

What really makes up a PMM is what never runs out! and has the abbility to generat more than it uses! OK! Lets test this when the sun heats anything and creates a wind up draft, then add the heat from other man made heat techs that add to the air flow from natural wind, It would create a contunal circluar air flow from the top outer and it naturaly flows down. This is most comman in weather naturals updrafts, WHAT do you call IT. PMM or a vortex mechaine! ?

Large & complex system does not = perpetual

The huge output of the hydrogen reactor that is the sun will do a lot of work...

They are like Bull Terriers just wont let go, perpetual is a long time.

I like the email notification

Where it appears

I'm answering myself

Wouldn't perpetual be infinite time

So, by your definition, a Crookes radiometer is a PMM? (or would be, if you built a big'un with an output shaft).

Courtesy of Wikipedia.

The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time. The law of conservation of energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, implies that such a perpetual motion machine cannot exist. The most commonly contemplated type of perpetual motion machine in this class is a mechanical system which (supposedly) sustains motion indefinitely, despite losing energy to friction and air resistance.

A second type of impossible "perpetual motion machine" is one which does not violate conservation of energy, but produces work by extracting heat from its surroundings, thereby cooling them down, and converting the heat energy into mechanical work. Such machines are forbidden by the second law of thermodynamics.

Yes I agree that the second law does apply in physics also it is over riden when the first law is applied in combinations with man made technologies and structure desgins of moden knowledge and computer programs !, it then is possible to work on a intermitition base then the solar heat and wind is added to the total output for it's boosting power.

Now what?

As per your expalantion of Type-2, is possible but than at the loss of efficiency of course

It takes energy in form 1 and then changes to the energy form-2 but with a loss, and this loss goes on to increase over all entropy and hence does not violate the 2nd law.

This is what all the transducers doing (including the turbine- its sorrounding for the rotor is steam)

The question is the doing of work - ie getting energy- out of nowhere and not disturbing the sorroundings. No energy taken in or mass converted to energy- in any of the n dimensions.