Ask Bill Gates that question. Oh, no you can't. He's so flipping rich he's not approachable. He didn't get there by giving it away.

Due to client pressure, we've chewed off the first bit of the bullet - joined BSI & shelled out for the first wave of standards. Bad news is that they refer to another great list of standards which we'll probably need to shell out for - and choke on the rest of the round.

Agree 100% - we should not have to pay for these standards!

Who would then pay for the cost of developing and updating these standards - pray tell?

Perhaps whoever wants to develop and impose such standards should pay for them, rather than the subjects who are expected to comply. Wave a fond farewell to bureaucrazy if/when this radical notion catches on.

I for one do not want to live next to a Refinery or some such plant that is designed to a standard written by "whoever wants to develop and impose such standards".

I much prefer the notion of it being built to comply with such things as API, ASME etc, for which the people who want to build or operate such plants have to pay. Just makes sense. Nobody needs to pay for a standard that they do not need.

"Wave a fond farewell to bureaucrazy" I do not see these standards in that light. Without them we would probably wave fond farewell to the plants as they blow up.

Having said that, there are some wonderful standards emanating from various government sources that we would do better without.

johndg, mr lynlynch was very helpful when I asked for advice on how to test inks (thanks lynlynch). I purchased the standard because after reading what it contained it seemed to be what I needed. However when I purchased the standard (ASTM) it was just a list of about 100 or more (I guess) standards. These types of standards (if you could call them that, to me they are more of a list than a standard) should be available freely.

rgds Jason

Because most of the standards from organized businesses. If you want to play you have to pay.

Interesting questions. But who says standards are being used by everybody? Do you require a standard in order to buy a stove or a computer? Standards are intended to be used by manufacturers and product designers, not read like a library book. Although many libraries do have on-line standards available for reference or lookups.

As to costs, it can be well over $100,000 to develop and maintain a standard, so there's nothing wrong with a standards developer charging a nominal fee for them. And don't think that $500 or so for a standard is more than nominal. In North America, how many stove or fridge standards would you expect to be sold? How many manufacturers are there? Multiply by $500 and compare to $100,000. That's an excercise for the reader.

If you want to know the scope of a standard before buying it, Google it.

If you're a designer or a manufacturer, your best bet is to contact a recognized approvals agency and discuss your new product. They can help you decide not only which standards you need to comply with, but can also help you avoid pitfalls. It's like "do you talk to an architect before or after you design your house".

Just my thoughts after 30+ years in the standards and approvals biz.

Grae

My problem is that as a manufacturer, I have to produce goods which conform to the standards.

I could (and do) employ a conformance agency to assist - but on a day-to-day basis, it is prohibitively expensive (what colour is acceptable for this or that pushbutton or indicator/what is the maximum distance from the 'normal operating position' to the nearest emergency stop actuator/what is the maximum size of a slot aperture to prevent fingers getting entrapped in a moving mechanism/ditto for a circular aperture - it goes on and on). You are forced to shell out the cash for the standards.

BUT with a turnover of <£1M pa, I have to pay the same as a.n. other company with a £500M+ turnover. THAT's what really bugs me.

Hi capblanc,

For me, there are standards and there are "standards". For instance, we operate an EMC measurement lab that is calibrated, but not certified. We can measure effectively, but can't offer a certificate. If the client wants a certificate, we ship the product to a certified lab, pay the fees, and there's the certificate.

There are many cases where we are "pushed" by clients to test to a particular standard, and certainly the capability exists, but the cost of attaining that is large, and difficult to justify. For instance, many have asked me for Lab (color) measurements, but calibrated or not, I can't justify the cost of the equipment to do that. Instead, we find other solutions that will satisfy the need.

Surely, there are times, places, and business models that must have certified standards in place, but not everywhere nor in every case. (a silly example ... if, in my work I need to drill 1/4-inch or 6mm holes, there's no need to stock up on quantities of all bit sizes when usually I only will need one size).

If your situation demands standards (documents, certifications, equipment, tools, etc.) if you are going to be in that business, then buy the standards needed ... it's just a part of the cost of doing business. If the situation is only a request or the need isn't that great, then find a work-around solution either by some other method, or by using a 3rd party solution.

Kind regards ...

We fellow ASME & NB codes and standards in design, fabrication and repair of petroleum and petrochemical equipment. All of these codes and standards must be regularly revised, developed and updated by specialists and experts to be issued as a new edition nearly every 3 years, in addition to 3 addenda nearly one per year. All these codes cost us about USD 7000 every 3 years. Who will pay that cost other than the end user.

As a manufacturer I buy and use a lot of standards. I am also on various committees developing some of the product standards. It is a costly, timeconsuming, laborious and often acrimonious process developing, revising and validating standards. The Standards organizations require revenue to meet these activities.

Though painful, in my opinion it is a necessary evil.

He who calls out or insists that a particular Standard be complied with, should pay for the cost of acquiring the appropriate version of the Standard to which compliance is required. If the customer can not provide sufficient documentation to define what constitutes compliance with the specified Standard, then the customer obviously has not done due diligence and hasn't a clue as to whether the Standard is even applicable to the particular situation, and should be required to pay double the cost of acquiring the necessary documentation...

Unfortunately, many requests for proposals are written with demands for conformance to certain standards, and one needs to evaluate the requirements imposed by these standards in order to provide an appropriate estimate.

What is really fun is when the Standards required for a project are a moving target, as happened with the former nuclear power plant construction business- this was addressed by going with "cost-plus" contracts...Which has a lot to do with why nuclear power plants cost something like 10 times what they should cost to construct...

Give me a cost-plus contract any day- that covers the cost of acquiring the Standards documentation, acquiring the equipment necessary to comply with the Standard, and sufficient left over to hire a few extra technicians, secretaries and project managers to insure conformance...

In the UK many university libraries maintain full sets of British & European standards. These may be available through inter-library loan schemes. If you contact them as the company 'librarian' you can arrange to borrow standards for a small fee or you can visit the library to establish if you really need to buy the particular standard.

If the government imposes compliance to standards or regulations, the government should make them freely available. The costs of standards for me as a self-funded start up are the same as those of a £10M company. Industry standards that have no legal standing are another matter, it is reasonable to pay for those.

Much of these posts are grips about having to comply with standards. However standards offer business operators and consumers several advantages:

• Conforming to standards often reduces the amount of testing required for products to be accepted into the market place.
• Conforming to standards allows for commonization of fasteners, raw materials, labels and marking requirements which facilitate manufacturing and improve product safety.

ISO, ASME, and ANSI standards are all followed on a voluntary basis, driven by market pressures (see the respective websites). Except were standards have been enacted into laws (principally international trade laws regarding environmental, safety, or labeling language) standards are followed purely for the competitive market advantages they offer. Even industry specific standards such as SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and USCAR are not mandatory, however complying with these standards often suggests some level of safety, interchangeability, and quality that non-conforming products do not offer.

Standards must be purchased because they are copyright protected materials. Standards are copyright protected to protect the financial investment of the standardizing bodies (ISO, ASME, ASTM, ANSI, SAE, etc.). These groups often spend a decade or more researching and reviewing best practices to identify what should be adopted and standardized. Imagine you're working on a project for 8-12 years with no financial return. Your product is unique and you apply for and receive a patent. Then people start complaining in blogs and message boards about how they have to pay for your product. Really, the price we pay is fair.

If your still complaining about the price you pay for a standard, then chances are your not using the information in the standard effectively, or your irritated that what you want to do does not comply with the standard. Be patient and malleable. The effective use of standards has demonstrated that standards, at least good standards, pay for themselves in just a few months.

I am not griping about complying with standards, I expect products to be compliant with the relevant standards.

The problem is that the cost to purchase the standards is the same whether I build one item or a million, whereas royalties to use a patented process or the cost of buying a patented product is generally proportionate to the quantity involved.

Chankley,

That is true, but a patent is for a very specific technology (a three hole fuel injector orifice plate) where as a standard can be applied generally (all automotive components, all airframe components, all hydraulic systems, all stairs, all curbs, all computers. etc.)

And I would add that industry standards define minimum product performance requirements, test parameters, etc. Laboratory test standards are a benchmark. That is, they define test procedures that can be duplicated in any other similar laboratory and yield the same result, within standard tolerances and with appropriate correction factors. As pointed out earlier, conformance is voluntary except where required by customers, governments, etc. In the US, product standards cannot be written that exclude products with a history of satisfactory performance. Conformance with industry standards can also be of significant legal benefit.

Finally, industry standards are developed by unpaid volunteers who participate through working groups in the various technical societies and subcommittees. The working groups are composed of members with an interest in particular standards development but, the resulting standards are voted on and approved by a balanced voting pool composed of representatives of end users, manufacturers, and all other interested parties.

This question came about because another member contacted me directly to ask if I knew the spec for a cable. His question read as follows.

" I have a question regarding European cable markings as follows: 0-18 mt TKN CABLO 1 x 16mm MYY CE IEC 60092-350-253"

I looked through the info I had on file and could find nothing, I tried the web, still no joy. Perhaps someone else here can give some info. In particular he wanted to know the temperature rating.

As has been pointed out above, it is the end user who will ultimately pay for the standards. If anyone buys a standard for use in their factory or service then that is a cost which will ultimately be reflected in their prices. If they were paid for out of taxes and available freely at a "paper" cost then it wouldn't stifle small businesses the way the current system does. Thus it would improve competition and so benefit the consumer.

Regards

Chas

the question is: "why is it that standards have to be purchased?"

let me attempt to answer this from 2 sides, the consumer and the producer's.

• from the consumer. - it enforces some sense of safety and of being "up there and knowing what I want". from this simplistic viewpoint, manufacturer simply transfers the cost of complying, to the customer. the matter becomes complicated, when consumers all over the world begin demanding that the standards become intrinsic in the product. it become difficult for the manufacturer when countries develop their own standards and insist on them. this defeats the concept of globalism, where it is hoped that every manufacturer be on a level playing field, having access to the same resources and markets. unique national standards simply raise new fences of protectionism. thus, it is only proper that customers pay for the compliance of such. thus, there will be a market for standards publishers.
• from the manufacturer. - demand drives compliance. here is the irony of it. consider a manufacturer that has been in the business of producing nuts and bolts, and over the years of engaging in this business, have developed their own, sound, engineering standard procedures for the production, testing, packaging and shipping of these products. then comes the engineering consultant who peddles "knowledge in a box", and "tells them the time by looking at their watch", and convinces the manufacturer that to be truly lucrative and attractive to the global market is by embracing *the* standards for his products, the very things he's been doing for ages! eager to earn "the logo" and the piece of paper called the "certificate", manufacturer complies. thus, it is proper that manufacturers pay for the compliance to standards. thus, there will be a market for standards publishers.
  

that standards can be free, is not only a possibility, but a reality. one thing that stands out as an excellent example of standards development that grew out of pure cooperation is the Internet. the standards employed on this medium that we are interacting through right now is borne on the spirit of volunteerism. people seeing the need, and having the skills to help came forward and they got it done. true, some publishers are trying to make some money out of these standards by getting them printed and distributed, but buying them is not necessary and does not add value to any product on the Internet.

how have we reached this point of us chasing our own tail? apparently, we engineers have also created a cabal from among us, the "standards system", in the same manner that lawyers have crafted a "justice system" that you can't get away from, or what the medical practitioners have created, the "medical and pharmacological systems" that insist our healing and wellness can come only from their technology and drugs, and accountants with their "accounting system" that force everyone to assign either a black or red color to their checkbooks.

it is said that technological progress is like catching a tiger by the tail -- once you grab it, you can't let go.

The problem to my mind comes from the expense of just trying to do basic research. I personally don't have the money to buy the ASME / ASTM / AISI / SAE / AMS / UNS / et all standards for my personal use. I am not going to abuse my privileges at my Employer's expense either. Many years ago, there was a reference book around that did side-by-side comparisons of the common alloys in six or eight standards. It was out of print by the time I became aware of it and the people who had one would have rather lost body parts than have to part with the book.

As it is, I have a couple of Machinery's Handbooks, and a few downloads found after much searching through the internet. This is by no means an exhaustive collection, and it is primarily just steel and welding consumables. I would buy an out of date set of ASME or ASTM standards as long as I could get them cheap, but haven't run across any yet.

So when someone asks a question about welding a specific alloy, or I want to find a good material to use for one of my projects, I have to do a bunch of looking or pay a princely sum if I don't have it already, or go down to the library and see if they have a book on hand about welding or fabrication that has some tables in it.

I purchased a ASTM standard & was sent a CD that only works when I'm online & it only worked for the year it was issued, I wasn't even allowed to print out the various specs. Yes there are revisions to the standard from year to year, the majority stayed the same.

Bill has taught them well...

Langyaw makes a good point, the standards guys have formed their own guild & circled the wagons.

Anyone who has done an ISO deployment, probably knows that the best way to make everyone life miserable is to write highly detailed SOP [standard operating procedures]. the process for revision can be tortuous. The best method is to keep it as vague as possible. For the certification process better to miss something than to get dinged for non compliance in an audit.

One way to circumvent the cost of a standard is to pool your knowledge. If your researching the feasablitity of welding a matrerial, discuss this with your materials supplier. It they don't know how the grade of steel you've selected will handel CD, MIG, or plasma welding you may want to use a more knowledgeable supplier.

If you need to how PA6 with 20% glass fill reacts to heat cyles of 0 degrees to 350 degrees for a long term your material supplier should know this information.

Certainly the suppliers will not be able to tell you everything about your product, and in those cases purchacing and complying with a standard should be looked at as the cost of doing business. Compared with the risk of not complying with a standard, the purchase of several copies of a standard is usually minimal.

As for electronic editions of standards, I'm unaware of any standard that must be purchased electronically. However, when you buy an electronic copy of a standard you should be aware, as with e-books, that restrictions on the use will be used as a security precaution. The standards comittes do not want their work spread all over the internet or infinate numbers of copies pread accross an global corporation. While these limitations should be disclosed in the product information prior to purchase it should be recognized that this has be come a general practice for all e-documents.

The simple fact that many are railing against is that our world uses standards in virtiually every product and survice businesses provide. To buck the system and not use standards is to take on additional risks, and complexity in our business. Our modern world would cease to exist, as we know it, without standards.

I'm not railing against the use of standards as such...

I completely agree that making vendors "earn their money" will reduce the costs of compliance

The concept of standards is to assure consistency & quality of materials, processes.

the bureaucracy that goes along with tends to be self justifying & the value they add is at times minimal.

When ASTM [for instance] protects IP that was developed by the collaboration of end users, does the value they add, justify the cost

How can you calculate the return on investment, when you are being forced to use a single vendor?

The Standards are required in our own work. For example water pipe line in a factory - the flanges will be fitted either ON-CENTRE or OFF-CENTRE. Otherwise any maintanance work we cannot do. If such is the problem with in a factory, then what will be the DIFFICULTIES from Manufacturer to Manufacturer of components.?

DHAYANANDHAN.S