Tracking Down Paint Removal

You've managed to prejudice us all with your opening statement which is leading and would never be allowed in court.

Secondly, anyone who may, "have special license/qualification in area of accident investigation/reconstruction" would never, in my opinion, claim such license/qualification on a forum such as this and render an opinion as to the cause.

It would all be hearsay evidence anyway and the judge would NEVER allow it to be heard.

The only thing you can possibly get here is false hope.

Sorry.

I'm sorry but that was not an opening statement. I simply am trying to determine how the contact occured based on the paint evidence...which is the only thing available. In reality, I have left out very much of what I could say, including only inferences drawn from what the other party says. That would not be an opening statement...but could be seen as an attempt to engage members' interest...

But, for anyone else who sees hidden motives by a mere statement of facts, I ask you to simply look at the pics and say what you think based only on paint knowledge or on bumper contact knowledge. It will be more helpful if "legal opinions" can be set aside for now - except where collision/paint expertise (in particular) might have been derived from such legal experience. Thanks again for your patience with my crude attempts to not by overly terse and seemingly rude in the OP. Another thing, while I have been placed on a difficult spot, please do not feel that I'm demanding an immediate response. Please feel free to take the time you need to give due consideration of the pics I have provided.

LM

I hate to burst your bubble but what Lynlynch said was right on the money. Your pictures and any opinion you obtain here from your pictures will not be legally useful. Also, unlike what you see on several "forensic science" entertainment shows, the pictures themselves will not be useful since you took them. Please, do not be offended by my comment. You have an untrained eye and thus you do not know what you should photograph, at what angle, what lighting, camera lens, or any other additional information which must be included in the photograph for them to be useful to make any legal argument or reverse forensic calculations. (For one thing, none of your pictures have anything that one can scale any dimensions from.)

These really are all concerns your insurance company and/or police should be worried about, not you. If your insurance company prefers just paying somebody off that you think are running a scam, then you might consider getting the police involved. Both avenues should have access to qualified people to investigate the validity of your claim.

Having said that, you might wish to search your local colleges for programs in forensics. There you might be able to find a willing professor to reply to an unsolicited e-mail about who you might hire to support or refute your claim. You will have to do this before any repair work is done, for the removal of any bolt may obliterate some critical information. Be prepared to loose more money by investigating the accident on your own than any amount of money you might save by showing fraud.

It is absolutely impossible to draw a conclusion based on the pics. The best bet, if you believe you are being scammed, is to let your insurance company handle it. They deal with this stuff every day. I doubt the opposing party will be able to prove you were at fault. On the other hand, you could be screwed. I learned this the hard way. If you are involved in an accident, regardless of how minor it may seem, call the cops and have them fill out a report, otherwise you have no defense should the other driver decide to make a fraudulent report. I hope everything works out, if not, I bet you won't find yourself in this situation again. Sorry I couldn't provide cheerier news.

It is absolutely impossible to draw a conclusion based on the pics. The best bet, if you believe you are being scammed, is to let your insurance company handle it. They deal with this stuff every day. I doubt the opposing party will be able to prove you were at fault. On the other hand, you could be screwed. I learned this the hard way. If you are involved in an accident, regardless of how minor it may seem, call the cops and have them fill out a report, otherwise you have no defense should the other driver decide to make a fraudulent report. I hope everything works out, if not, I bet you won't find yourself in this situation again. Sorry I couldn't provide cheerier news.

For all us naysayers, are we meaning "conclusion" in the sense asked? Or in the sense of the "jumped-to" conclusion: namely, an answer as to who was "at fault"...a question never asked.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that the paint marks pictured have no directionality; that it would make no difference if the "arrows" of paint deformation pointed in the opposite, or in any, direction? That it would still say nothing about which direction it was that something glanced into, across, and off of the pictured bumper? That OP post-er is mistaken, somehow, in not perceiving the paint deformation patterns as, simply, uniform disorder? No different from the undisturbed paint?

In my humble opinion when comparing this to an incident I was involved in the contact started at the rear of your vehicle going forward. Due to the glancing nature of the contact there would be very little change in velocity of the other vehicle. If this is all the evidence of your contact with the other vehicle then contact the police. I would hope that you called them at the scene of the incident, if not then it will be difficult for you to prove your version of events. It will be just as difficult for the other party to prove their version. If they are taking you to small claims court, let them. Get a statement from a police investigator and a body shop, bring it with you, dress nice be VERY polite, don't get upset explain your self clearly and all should be well.

As to what everyone has said I agree with.

Now to answer your question. 1: the bumper cover on your car is a flexible plastic, so impact was not enough to deform to allow damage to tail light or sheet metal body damage. The main bumper is behind this cover and usually some what shorter than the cover. 2: the damage like this I have seen could have been done in a parking lot. example some one swinging wide in to a parking space the corners just touched, or backing out of a space on the opposite side.

3: if you were travailing down the road and changed lanes on top of someone it would only need a light touch to leave a mark. (my example) I had an older bronco I was moving into a turn lane some idiot was passing cars in the turn lane just as i started over. I only felt the slight bump it tweak my bumper only. It busted his head/marker light. hood fender,window, passenger door by shoving all of his parts back.

4: you or someone else driving the car could have done the damage by backing into something, another car, a wall, or something solid and not even realize it.

moral of this: ALL WAYS GET A POLICE REPORT if you can, CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE CO AND GET THE OTHER PEOPLES INFO NAME, ADDRESS, INSURANCE CO. CONTACT YOUR INS FAST ESPECIALLY IF YOU THINK ITS A FRAUD.

My wife was rear ended (not the good was) the other person called our ins with in thirty mins after the accident and had the ins ready to pay out before my wife was even out of the er. The only reason I was able to stop them was the agent wanted to get the story of why we had not called to report the accident of rear ending HIM!

With the police report and damage investigation of both cars were we able to get ours fixed.And not have the accident charge on the ins.

NON OF WHAT I HAVE SAID IS TO BE CONSIDERED L EAGLE ADVICE OR KNOWLEDGE OF ACCIDENT RECONSTRUCTION. JUST CASUAL SEEING THINGS OVER THE YEARS OF DRIVING. AND MY KNOWLEDGE OF MY ACCIDENTS THAT I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH.

Last thing study the DMV and leagle codes to the rule of the road and driving.

That has save me in a few accidents because the police DON'T KNOW all the laws either or the cute girl flirts with the officer. the officer make the report sound like you are responsible. Last thing carry a camera of some type even a cellphone camera works. Take as many pixs you can before the autos are moved. That may be the only way you don't lose out.

Charles

I've always sought to get the other party into the pictures and if possible have them point to the damaged or contact areas on both vehicles

Others have given good advice...

Write the date and time on a piece of paper and ask them to hold it...gets them in the picture holding a date and time...difficult to argue later.

We use this on the pipeline when locating for a contractor. We flag where the edge of our Right of Way is and unless they are digging within 50ft of the ROW, we do not have to be on location during the digging. So we make them sign that they will not be working so close and get a picture of them holding the sign usually with our pin-flags in the background. If they hit our pipe, we can show explicitly that they knew the location and were aware of the restrictions.

Drew

My two centavos for what it is worth, the first contact was from the rear moving forwards based on the shape of the scrape, the large blunt end (where first contact would have been made) where most of the paint is missing is in the back and the lighter scrape is forward indicating that the other vehicle/object was moving away and most of the impact energy had already been spent.

but nothing I or any of the rest of us said would hold up in a court of law.

Okay, I've read and taken all under advisement; and please try to bear in mind that this is not about legal aspects. only to see how an unseen incident might/must have happened based on indirect, physical evidence: the tale told be the paint, if any. Now consider the following:

At the time of the car contact, the pictured car was stationary or just beginning to move forward, or both (if ya know what I mean). The "damage" claimed at the scene by the other car occupant (mind you, I don't say 'driver' because I did not see that person driving or in the driver seat...but did see another person of age possibly daughter age in the fr. passenger seat) was at a single point (roughly circular about 2-3 inches dia, on the bend in that bumper, but not proceeding either centerline-ward or forward on side of that car. (The damage to the pictured bumper extends vertically over a distance approximately 5-6 inches, maybe more). How can we now reconcile the damage shown above for an incident occurring in a private business (McDonald) parking lot? PS: I will disclose more about the other party's claim and my response in due course...then all will be hopefully clearer. And you will be able to put your minds at ease about what this old vet should and should not have done. BTW, I will be attempting to elicit "paint forensics" help from the dealer who recently sold me the car. And maybe I can help them also get to the bottom of the transmission shift flaws in that model which Ford does not as yet seem to have figured out. But that's another forum thread. Also I have acknowledged with GA's those on-topic conjectures above as to how the physical contact might have occurred.