New Engine Design

I'm sure some oil company or other would gladly fork out several million bucks to buy up Patent 7,xxx,xxx to protect their market. Don't hesitate--apply now--best of luck!

Thank you.

Not bad for a back yard father and son team.

Funny thing is if you replace combustion with heated R744 you get 794Kw.

Process is this R774 is cool liquid at 74 barg and 31.1* Celsius, at 120* Celsius it is 10,000 barg hot gas. Leaving a working pressure of 9,926 barg. Divided by 9 and mutliplied by 720 watts is 794Kw.

Cheers

Peter

You're welcome. However, be watchful of wall thickness for any cylinders or other shapes that are expected to contain 10,000 barg (≈ 150,000 psi). For those not in the refrigeration world, R744 = CO₂. R774 = ??

Bro,

Spot on!

Have only been able to find one metal shaper that pressure and they are in the USA.

What are you doing for the rest of your life?

Cryogenic refigeration I trust have the shape thing sorted out.

Problem is Coal fired Steam turbine is not up to a Kilowatt at 120*C temperature.

Mind you the Carbon reduction is enormous using R774.

Be interesting to see how things pan out in time the elephant in the room costs less to run and emitts less carbon.

Cheers

Peter

I would guess that this would be CO₂ neutral. In the long run, any leakage of CO₂ into the atmosphere might be compensated by recapturing the same amount of CO₂ to replenish the loss. [??]

As combustion engine or heated turbine if Green fuel is used both be Carbon neutral.

In both instance the only place Co2 may escape from is via the turbine shaft housing, however to get that far it would first need to empty the water out of the turbine not just the supply line.

Carbon emission saving may compensate for any leakage by design fault or accident.

Fossil fuel fired. One Steam turbine power station Qld Au. 240 tonne Carbon per hour for 350 megawatts. R774 turbine 930 kilos Carbon per hour for 350 megawatts.

You may have already noted yourself that should the hydro turbine footprint be of such size the same megawattage is produced using air temperature at or above 1*Celsius. (Low pressure high volume)

I wish that i could understand this "engine"

Jurie

Hello Jurie,

Here to help out. Imagine if you will a U shaped peice of water pipe which is sealed at one end. Then if you were to insert a gas pressure into the sealed end of the pipe the gas pressure would push all the water out the open end of the pipe.

That is the combustion stage. However the water flows through a hydro turbine and empties into a holding tank. The gas having forced the water out of cylinder A follows it untill coming under cylinder B itself full of water, and gas being gas seeks to surface. In the process of reaching the top of cylinder B the gas has further pushed water out, so the float blocking the exhaust vent has nothing to float on and falls away from blocking the vent.

As the pressure of combustion releases water flows back in refilling the cylinders. Pipe D goes higher in cylinder B than in A so gas continues to pass out the exhaust vent without causing an air pocket in cylinder A. Only after cylinder A is completely full does pipe D fill up with water followed closely by cylinder B causing the float to float shut.

Compression is arrived by the influx of turbine exit water filling the holding tank and compressing the air which was drawn in by the holding tank water dropping to fill cylinder A and B plus pipe D.

Fuel pressure is made by the exhaust pressure going upon the fuel in the fuel tank which has a pressure releif valve. Effectively the fuel tank is pressurised by a fire extinguisher.

Peter

My appologies. Alphabetical numbering not in main post.

Peter

Hoping this drawing defines beter.

Cheers

Peter

Take a look at the Peter Dearman Engine. He uses liquid nitrogen mixed with hot radiator fluid from a ICE to power a compressor on a refrigeration truck. Liquid Nitrogen expands 700 times when it is mixed with room temperature water. The Dearman Engine simply exhaust the expanded spent gas like exhaust. First it is used to cool the food storage department of the truck before it powers the engine. The liquid nitrogen can be made from renewable energy and stored at atmospheric pressure. The entire cycle has been observed to be more efficient than solar powered production of hydrogen gas to power a fuel cell for refrigeration purposes. Another interesting use of Co2 is in a closed loop Brayton Cycle Turbine. That technology was granted 40M by the Dept. of Energy to build a power plant. DaS energy can also be used in a closed loop system and in my opinion is far superior in its simplicity to the closed loop Brayton Cycle turbine using Co2. I am glad to hear that there is worldwide interest in the manufacturing of this technology.

Dream on.

To better understand the potential energy of expanding Co2 watch the numerous videos on you tube demonstrating what the low temperature phase change Co2 can do. For example how a little piece of dry ice placed inside a plastic litre bottle of warm water. The person in the video seals up the bottle and runs away. A short time goes by and a large explosion occurs. I think the pressure quickly goes up over a 1,000 psi. What the DaS Energy device does it uses that expanding gas to force a high pressure liquid to power a francis turbine. The expanded gas can be recycled back into a working fluid using the New Engine Design invented by Peter McKinlay. Instead of water I would use a ionic liquid. Looking forward to use the new discovery made by Notre Dame of a very low pressure ionic liquid Co2 refrigeration cycle for the DaS Engine. If the Brayton Cycle Turbine is using Co2 in a closed loop turbine system and Dearman engine is successfully using liquid nitrogen to run a compressor engine then I am glad to learn that DaS Energy has been accepted by others who are manufacturing this new technology.

Hmm... this sounds oddly familiar.

Perhaps because I mentioned it some time ago in an older thread in reference to an old low pressure high volume water pumping system from around a century or more ago.

I think it is a feasible system but I would still highly question the realistic efficiency numbers and power capacities. Plus when you burn any hydrocarbon fuel with regular air and then exhaust the resulting combustion gas out that combustion gas still has all of its byproducts that are created by any hydrocarbon fuel. Water Vapor, CO2, blah blah blah.

I would still like to know where you get these insane pressure numbers from though. I have yet to find or see any factual physics or chemistry that backs up your claims.

Here's a possible reason for it sounding familiar: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/44533#.

I've tried reading through the explanation, and even with regions lettered, I don't follow. I realize that this is more a concept sketch than a block diagram, much less a blueprint - but just trying to guess which line represents a wall, and which is part of an arrow, etc. gets to be too difficult for this time of night (for me). The description of the float having nothing to support it when the water exits makes no sense: air pressure is perfectly capable of doing the job (witness devices made to hold overhead valves up in auto engines, by pressurizing the chamber through a fitting threaded into the spark plug hole). If 100 psi air will hold up an automotive valve, won't 10,000 psi air hold up a float?

Nor do I see any answer to the question of what that working fluid actually is . . .

Hello Ron,

Sorry about the bad drawing but best I can do.

Have you heard of a air relief valve in a water pipeline. Water pressure will keep the valve shut but air at the same pressure wont. Its a bit of a balancing trick but it works.

Cheers

Peter

Yes; in fact, I have a couple of them in my basement for the sump pump. The floats will rise on the water column, if used in a position similar to what you show. Fairly modest air pressure (3 - 4 psig) will keep them closed, though it would take more airflow than I can muster to close them once opened. However, my normal use is opposite, to prevent backflow.

Hello tcmtech,

"like to know where you get these insane pressure numbers from "

No shortage on the Internet, type in CO2 temeprature pressure graph. Failing that try Oklahoma University. Graphs usualy are for Critical CO2 and another for Supercritical CO2.

Cheers

Peter

What makes you think that you can get usable energy from this contraption?

How much water can you move in an hour?

The fact the turbine goes round and roundf. The fact the generator conncted to it goes round and round and the light bulbs attached to the generator glow in the dark.

What size turbine and what speed is it going? Both dictate how much water could be moved in an hour!

Cheers

Peter

Alas, that wasn't very quantitative.

Hello Tornado,

So true, but I have an excuse I built it without any engineering degree. I have to look up half the names engineers use. Hoping maybe the learned will tell me all those engineering things people ask about.

I am a bit old fashioned my goal was to make it work not understand all the intricacies that make it work, there are professional people for that.

One can easily make working model using pvc pipe, garden hose and tennis balls however be carefull with the fuel air mix. That advice applies to metal pipe as well.

Cheers

Peter

How can you make this work without knowing the intricacies? At least some of them? I don't have an engineering degree, either (lots of experience, though), but once upon a time I took freshman physics and learned many of the relevant concepts and formulas.

Hello Tornado,

Always have had an inquistive mind, take it apart and look at it.

Experince was clear to me that people try and make existing thing better rather than come up with a completely new way of doing it.

It started by asking why couldnt I explode the air blocking water flow in a centrifical pump, Never cracked that one.

Being a bushy all that mattered was it worked not the intricacies of how it worked apart from a basic concept.

I go and do things rather than looking in a book to see if I can, that way I am not put off before I begin.

After I got the DaS Valve going I had to look things up to assertain what I have actualy done.

For the R774 model it became the R774 model after many many days looking at gas data.

If you look at the gas fridge you see there is a huge constant pressure build up at its choke point. Which purpose is to lower the pressure on the other side, so I thought why not use a turbine to strip off the pressure rather than a choke point wasting energy.

Funny thing life.

Cheers

Peter

So, you're replacing the TX valve with a hydroturbine? How do you get the expanded gas back into the system? Stu

Hello Stueywright:

I did more than replace the TX valve, the whole thing only resembles the link in that it heats a liquid to gas.

The DaS Valve is a self filling boiler. R774 at 31.1* degrees Celsius and 74 barg pressure is liquid. Heated above 31.1*C R774 is gas, when the gas is vented out the exhaust valve it goes to cooling reducing its temperature back to 31.1* Celsius and 74 barg. The liquid then goes back into the DaS Valve. Following the same heating and cooling process of the Steam turbine.

Cheers

Peter

Truly amazing.

Why do "green" fuels need alt engine designs? How did you calculate the power output? What is the theoretical efficiency based on the Carnot cycle?

"..no piston engine manufacturer is going to shoot themselves in the foot by making this." You're probably right.

Hello ffej:

The piston'crankshaft engine is highly inefficient and Green fuel has less energy than fossil fuel. Therefore we decided that making an engine of greater efficiency Green fuels out-power fossil fuel run through a piston/crankshaft engine. Also so much has beens said on the damage Green fuel does to the piston engine.

Power out put is calculated using the known of hydro turbine. 1 litre of water per second at a pressure of 9 barg passing through a 80% efficient hydro turbine generates 720 watts. Increase in either or both water pressure or volume flow per second increases wattage.

Have absolutely no idea of its efficiency based on the Carnot cycle.

Theres a lot of piston engine makers out there, however the price of fuel and the cost of Carbon release some one will manufacture I hope.

Cheers

Peter

Hello Floram,

Cant realy help you.

Quote = California University on line education Hydro power generation.

They should be able to answer your questions.

Cheers

Peter

Hello Peter,

Sorry to say Peter, but I don't have a question. You do do. Lots of them.

I was trying to be very polite to tell you that your calculations are totally out of whack.

However, that is not my problem, its your. You have hardly a basis to even bring that one up. It is only an interest getter on your part, nothing for real. You just want to feel great and important, that's all. It works for a little while, but not for long. You may have noticed some of the other answers going in the same direction.

Good luck to you. (With lots of it you might see the light.)

A very sad occurrence - not to be confused with this BS.

Hello Duckinthepond,

So far no explosions to match that one , but burst the pipe more than once in testing.

As time goes by we are able to make improvements on the original. The more parts we can lose the better.

Aside the pressure release valve it has only one other moving part the hydro turbine.

The model after this one gets double the bang for the buck but uses the shaft of the hydro turbine as a screw pump for pressuring in the air in.

This works on the prinicipal first bang drives water into overhead holding tank. Then the exhaust releases into the holding tank driving the water down with the same force that it drove it up. Then as new water comes off the turbine the exhaust gasses are forced out through relief valve set at combustion force pressure.

Cheers

Peter

Hi DaS

Here's a link that describes most working engine principals. Some date back to the 1700's.

Would one of these closely resemble what you've built?

Here's another one listing (and linking) many of the engine museums around the world.

Hello Duckinthepond,

Thank you for that. Opened up and didnt look further just yet, spent so many months looking at engines to find any similarity with DaS but to no avail.

The whole working engine is that I posted, perhaps if somecome can find a similiar engine they will let me know.

Cheers

Peter

If you have the time the first link I posted shows how to use a cad program to make and animate the drawings. You obviously are capable of visualizing concepts....making them work on-screen might add a new dimension to your thinking.

Best of luck

Duck

" first link I posted shows how to use a cad program to make and animate the drawings"

Where is this link? Did I miss it?

more here

Thanks!

Hello Duckinthepond,

A thousand thank you's, however I am flat out with a computer and only then after taking lessons.

Straight up you will find on many web sites I have given the world free license to copy.

Happy to walk any through building it.

Marketing etc is not my thing.

Cheers

Peter

Hello Duckinthepond,

Simple answer, NO

Thr DaS R774 drive has no pistons per se, however water acts like a piston driving a hydro turbine. Also no rocking arm is used. Also DaS Valve is a self refilling boiler doing away with the auxillary pump. Also the whole thing is completely different.

Cheers,

Peter

DaS, have you made one? Post it for us.

Prototype working? I love new stuff.

Cheers,

Stu

Hello Stueywright,

That posted is the actual working model, or working prototype if you like.

Next working model will be made out of stronger metal than aluminum. Turns out aluminium cant handle naked heat for any period of time.

Noting concerns of others re definition of cylinder and piping I will repost in attempt to adress that problem

Cheers

Peter

Yeah, Man, but a photo.... Did you post it on Youtube yet? Seeing a working model would almost guarantee funding, I'd guess... Stu.

Hello Stueywright,

Got a photo of that left after last explosion. Shows thw whole thing including the gash in A cylinder. (will post)

Too old for YouTube not ophey with modern thing like the younguns.

Funding in Australia is No No No, anything that reduces Coal mining is not wanted.

There is a glut of electricity and Governments contol the supply grid but not the generators, and Government saize way is permission going to be granted.

Cheers

Peter

Hello Stueywright:

Not the best shot but reality.

The black bucket collects the water out of the turbine.

The drum contains a cooling coil surrounded by shaved ice.

The little cylinder is A and was heated by applying fire which is the black patch.

The long horizontal pipe gives two drives for one heat up.

The hoses convey water and R774.

Cheers

Peter

OK,

How about this. How much energy/work can you produce with a given quantity of fuel? It does use fuel, doesn't it.

You will find that we are an unforgiving lot when someone claims revolutionary breakthroughs in technology. Without proof.

Just ask Ron Hatton. He claimed to be able to increase HP ratings of regular engines by remarkable amounts with just a Dremel tool.

Cheers.

Hello Lynlynch,

Yes it will run on any fuel so long as its not water soluable.

Have no idea of energy to fuel, only know turbines are more efficient than piston/crankshaft, and has so many less moving parts.

Cheers

Peter

Check this thread out. We see a lot of this here. electric car

Priceless! Over and above unity even!!!

You naysayer, you!

I'm in contact with Lambert and Lambert, a division of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe, Attorneys at Law.

I'll be rich.

When I need a over unity equation I just toss a bunch of random letters and symbols into my equations, and then try to find someone else to figure it all out and build it for me!

The devices still never work but being I have an equation it must clearly be the person who built its fault now.

The trick is to have a working prototype and have it disassembled. Throw the pieces into a box and subject the box to all known un-natural laws. Given time it should re-assemble itself. If it doesn't then there's a screw loose somewhere..........

"well I got me a two horsepower horse". So what! That's only going downhill.

OK,

I'm beginning to understand how this can move water. But, can it move a freight train?

You people are on a roll.

Citing California University Hydro turbine power generation. 1 litre per second at 9 barg pressure = 720 watts.

The whoomph pressure in each cylinder of a Diesel multiplied by litres per second etc will give turbine size and Rpm.

I know the compression ratio to make the Diesel go whoomph but not the resulting pressure.

Just think not a tappet in sight.

No rings to replace, no cylinder to home.

Oil pumps are gone forever.

Fuel pumps disappear.

Sorry people long night and heavy politics over here,

Forgot to add that when Diesel is combusted above water you also obtain a amount of flash heated steam pressure.

No idea how much more bang for the buck that gives.

Sorry people long night and heavy politics over here,

Where the devil are you?

Stu.

Hello Stu,

Where the devil are you? Queensland Australia.

Government is fighting to preserve full on Coal burning in power stations and use Carbon capture to lower Carbon emissions.

However it has a problem with DaS Energy device and data from Qld Government, Oklahoma , California and Qld University.

Steam turbine 240 tonne Coal per hour 350 megawatts.

DaS R744 240 tonne Coal per hour 90,000 megawatts.

Same design as Combustion engine with difference R774 is used in heating and cooling cycle.

Cheers

Peter

Government is fighting to preserve full on Coal burning in power stations and use Carbon capture to lower Carbon emissions.

The only reason the Govt. is using coal to generate electric power is because it has the infrastructure already in place. That means a coal fired plant, and all of the job and employment implications therein.

To change this would necessitate them raising yours and my taxes even further, and I for one won't have that. I pay too much already.

I will beat the system myself with the installation of my 'solar power' supply. They are then free to come and cut the supply lines. I won't ever get another 'power bill'. Nor will my kids, after me.

Of course that does nothing to preserve the jobs in the power industry. Iddums!

The system works, with all of inefficiencies and troubles ( BS carbon tax scam included), and the only way you're going to have a positive impact on it is to prove that your machine is better by making one do the job you say it can do.

Publicly.

I'd like to be of help, but at this stage I am at a loss to see how?

My 'raison d'etre' is to help support innovation and new ideas. But,if I can't see it, well.............

Cheers,

Stu

Hello Stu,

Feel free to join in.

Government has two problems, One if attached to existing chimney stack doesnt need Coal or other. making 90,000 megawatts for the price of 350 megawatts has cost savings which can be passed on to the consumer.

Co2 is a strange gas when heated Supercritical 120*C it acts like water but remains a gas, odd thing Steam has the same properties, so only a pipe needs attachment to existing steam turbines.

Current $2 Billion set aside for Carbon Capture more than is suffice to conert every coal fired steam turbine in Australia.

Keep an eye on Tony Abbott over the next couple of weeks, he know things Rudd wishes he didnt like free copy to Australians is hiding in Kev's Office, for some reason he is keeping it for himself.

Where are you Bro?

Cheers

Peter

Pete. May I call you that?

Let's forget the engine for a moment.

Tell me what you had in your mind's vision when you logged into this blog.

How did you imagine it would be of help to you?

No.I'm serious. I need to know this if I'm to be of any more help to you.

(I won't enter into politics or religion. Whatever your persuasion, you don't share it with me. So we don't go there,OK?)

Government doesn't have any problems. We do.

Stu.

Hello Stu,

Pete is fine.

Came onto site to further my giving world free copy!

Spend a lot of time writing to web sites giving them the technology for free.

The more Carbon in the air the less oxygen we have to breath and even less in the future for my sons to whom I am highly bonded.

Also if Australia beats the world to the jump in driving costs down they may even get a job.

Cheers

Peter

Hello Ky,

Love it, top marks. Want a job as comunicater.

Control Technology Acia Ridge took concept and made their own solar model. CSIRO took copy and replaced Stirling Engine on little helicopter.

John Howard saw working model before refusing monetary assiatance as it did not involve Carbon capture.

When I pull it off who buy the drinks?

Government at all levels shudders at the name Councillor Mckinlay, had the Bastards in Court wins some many times.

Rudds playing never heard of me, pity Peter Garret replied on his behalf.

Its not being the mightiest in battle but knowing when to strike!

Cheers

Peter

Love it, top marks. Want a job as comunicater.

You would need one but I am busy not communicating. What I mean is that it takes time to shut up and sit back and listen to what people have to say. I have communicated in the past and am still digesting and analyzing and changing and adapting and choosing the appropriate materials and all the other parameters that need to be considered.

There are more ways than one to skin a cat so have a look at this

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/40799?Pg=2#comment514192

thread. It is "only" concerned with bubbles in pressurized water but involves a lot more than what you are bringing to the party. It is a lot more dangerous than you make out to be and requires a governing system at its best to control. It also makes what you are proposing impossible. I will leave it to you to work out why.

To blame politics, or other weird concepts of making people do things, for the failure of a mechanical system is not the way to go. Even if your contraption would be working, they should be the last to know. Only very rarely are they involved in technical decisions and usually rely on the academy to cover their backs. If they wanted, they could do an "Oppenheimer" on you, any time. The academy loves this because it keeps them busy doing Eff all at full pay.

Its not being the mightiest in battle but knowing when to strike!

Well, you wanted to play and arrive with an acoustic guitar, two strings missing and no output for an amp. The stage is yours Mate, the crowd is eager to hear and merciless if they get bored or recognize that its all in the head. I'll leave you to it, good luck, Ky.

Hello ky,

Thank you , I feel like the mouse that roared.

Cheers

Peter

If I read post #8 correctly, this is a cyclic device, and has at least two operations which depend upon gravity (dropping of the float, and refilling cylinders with water from holding tank). These would seem to limit repetition rate, though perhaps the mechanism can be revised to speed things up. But they also imply that the hydro turbine is only being driven during a part of the cycle, which has several drawbacks: First, duty cycle means that you're only getting output part of the time, and your totals must be corrected for this percentage. Second, if the flow rate changes, you will need complex means to convert the power to 50 or 60 Hertz AC if intended for the grid, or the utility of the device will be significantly limited by outputting, say, varying voltage DC. Third, accelerating and decelerating the turbine and generator is not generally good for bearings; since in this post you have eliminated the oil pump, I'm wondering what form of bearings these devices will use. Fourth: variation in the flow rate and in the rotation rate means that it becomes difficult to optimize the turbine design. Fifth: the concept of using exhaust to pressurize the fuel tank to eliminate the fuel pump is separate from this particular engine architecture (i.e., why not do the same for gasoline or Diesel internal combustion engines?), but the resulting backpressure ordinarily cuts exhaust efficiency so much that it makes fuel pumps preferable. Pressurizing* the fuel tank also requires much stouter construction to withstand the additional loads, increasing cost and decreasing internal volume for one which fits into a given place. All of the lines, pipes, hoses, and connections must also be beefed up. A pressurized fuel tank has an additional set of potential failure modes: if it - or any part of the system - ruptures, you now have stored energy to spread fuel everywhere. That's why steam boilers are tested with water pressure instead of air... The relief valve is not a simple device if it meets the temperature extremes caused by pushing hot exhaust past it, prevents outflow of fuel vapor, etc.

If the fuel tank is pressurized*, how do you refill it? Release the pressure and fill normally? OK, fine, but then how do you feed fuel to re-start the engine?

What prevents the expanding bubble of exhaust gas from blowing through the water column and skipping several steps of the operation?

* Injection pressure for a Diesel engine might be 1500 Bar (21,755 psig) - see http://www.erc.wisc.edu/documents/symp09-Reitz.pdf for example.

Hello Ron,

So many good questions. "this is a cyclic device, and has at least two operations which depend upon gravity (dropping of the float, and refilling cylinders with water from holding tank)". No its air pressured back by the escaping exhaust gasses.

"These would seem to limit repetition rate, though perhaps the mechanism can be revised to speed things up." Exhaust gas does that.

"hydro turbine is only being driven during a part of the cycle" No its receives the same on both combustion and exhaust stroke. Turbines can easily be two way flow.

"if the flow rate changes " No problems its a hydro turbine.

"Eliminated the oil pump". Havent oiled a bearing on a hydro turbine yet, this is no different.

"variation in the flow rate and in the rotation rate means that it becomes difficult to optimize the turbine design" No one size will do all, however Rpm differs, such is the joy of Hydro turbine.

"exhaust to pressurize the fuel tank to eliminate the fuel pump." That is correct to old technology but new technology such as this. You are quoting antique technology using a fuel pump and injectors where as this has neither.

"the fuel tank also requires much stouter construction" Cars converted to gas has taken that into account.

"you now have stored energy to spread fuel everywhere" Yes spread every where using a fire extinguisher. Unlike gas tank tanks when they rupture in car accidents.

"The relief valve is not a simple device if it meets the temperature extremes caused by pushing hot exhaust past it". Why not? its the material you use that makes all the difference.

"If the fuel tank is pressurized*," Secondary tank remaining charged even if main tank is rekeived of all pressure.

Cheers

Peter

"...antique technology using a fuel pump and injectors where as this has neither."

I see where the diagram is labeled for fuel in; I don't see any ignition system, and you've talked of using Diesel fuel and combusting it. So how do you get the fuel into the chamber, and how do you ignite? If fuel goes in and is compressed along with the air, you've lost control of timing, though maybe that's not a major issue for a liquid piston. Using injectors permits adding the fuel at the appropriate time; do you have an alternative? I still don't see any answer to preventing the gas bubble from blowing through the water, BTW.

"Cars converted to gas" - I've seen numbers as high as a few thousand pounds per square inch for such conversions, but the pressures you seem to require are an order of magnitude higher.

"..'stored energy to spread fuel everywhere' Yes spread every where using a fire extinguisher." I'm assuming that you are refering to CO2 as the fire extinguisher; however, an explosive rupture, or even a pinhole leak, means spreading fuel at an extreme rate, and you're PUSHING it with the gas, not smothering it with same. Moreover, unless your pressurizing gas (CO2) occupies far more of the tank's volume than the fuel does, you have little chance of providing an extinguishing blanket. The relocation of the fuel + CO2 can mix it into multiple times its own volume of air, quickly heading toward combustible mixture territory. If the leak occurs low in the tank or plumbing, the CO2 will not even arrive until long after the damage is done, and maybe never.

"Material choice" for the relief valve totally ignores the aspect of how to prevent the fuel or its vapors from exiting - and the required material may not even exist in any case. Maybe you'll be lucky on that, though.

Hello Ron,

"I don't see any ignition system, and you've talked of using Diesel fuel and combusting it. So how do you get the fuel into the chamber, and how do you ignite?"

Diesel needs little compressions so to speak to make it combust (no electrical ignition). The larger the cylinder the less pressure needed for Diesel combustion. Max 300 Psi.

"If fuel goes in and is compressed along with the air, you've lost control of timing,"

Insert air seperate to Diesel. Both float on water so mix at top of water and whoomph. Keeping control of timimg.

"preventing the gas bubble from blowing through the water" Gas bubbles only blow through water when travelling upward, never downward.

"I've seen numbers as high as a few thousand pounds per square inch for such conversions, but the pressures you seem to require are an order of magnitude higher." No 300 Psi is quite sufficient.

"the relief valve totally ignores the aspect of how to prevent the fuel or its vapors from exiting " No!, releif valve only vents combusted gasses. Fuel and fuel vapour stored in fuel tank not cylinder A.

"the required material may not even exist" Already exists and called exhaust valve in piston engines with their high heat output. In turbine configeration the top temperature 120* C whilste combusted Diesel is 1,200*C.

Cheers

Peter

DaS, 300psi you say is max? 300psi is on the low end of what's required to make enough heat to ignite 'diesel'. It'd be a damn dirty engine, incomplete combustion and all.

In practice, the exhaust gas runs to 800degC max, downstream of the exhaust valve.

Stu.

Hello Stu,

"300psi is on the low end" Diesel compression ranges between 12-1 and 25-1

300 Psi is at top end of compression.

Cheers

Peter

OK! So what temperature does atmospheric air at 300psi get you? Then, what ideal temp. is it to begin combustion in a typical diesel engine?

Stu.

Hello Stu,

No idea. I just made it go. The world is full of experts and idiots who should be able to answer your questions.

DaS, me old mate. You've got me completely flummoxed. I can't figure how you're going to get this device to do any work. Try as I might.

I see that you're burning a fuel to provide heat, externally to the device. Does it have anything to do with the Sterling Cycle? You provide 'cooling' by the use of shaved ice. How often do you need to run to the store and get more?

Damned if I can see how you're getting the pressures you're quoting. Lighting (igniting) a fuel which is interfaced with water? Have you hooked it up to something to test power output? Saw? Generator? Logsplitter?

A couple of the guys have postulated that you've got yourself an overunity device. Maybe , as you're burning a fuel externally (???????) it turns out that it isn't? I know you've attempted to answer all the questions, but you haven't really. You see, some of us are 'engine guys', 'petrol heads', 'rev heads', and we've seen most of the attempts to extract work from the stored energy in a gallon of gas (or diesel). We've studied and used all forms of hydraulic turbines, to supply power for our houses, and other things.

you've 'got me'

Stu

Hello Stu,

Old fashioned Diesel engines do work.

Hydro turbines do work.

Supplement the piston force on the crankshaft spinning the flywheel, to water pressure of same force driving a hydro turbine.

Difference, one can apply force to the inefficient crankshaft and make it go round and round or to the efficient hydro turbine and make it go round and round.

Don't see how I can further help Bro,

Cheers

Peter

Let me get this straight......are you proposing to use highly pressurized water as being the actual 'piston'?

Hello Duckinthepond,

BINGO!

Cheers

Peter

All right then. Let me just add there are some fundamental restrictions on what you propose...simply put, the laws of thermodynamics state that

1) You can't win

2) You can't break even

What you need is a device that produces more energy than it is supplied with. That hasn't been discovered yet.

Any conversion platform ie your turbine driven valving/ignition system cannot produce more energy than what is driving it. It will fundamentally produce less. Hence, the amount of energy available in the source is the most energy that can be had.

May explain why turbine is only 80% efficient. Losing 20% somewhere.

However DaS gets double the drive ofall known combustion engine ie the combustion shove is replicated by exhaust shove in equal and opposite direction.

Think I read once Engineers should keep it simple.

Thats twice the power without taking into consideration its a recycling turbine 80% efficient.

Hello Stu,

Realy to tired for doing this, didnt read properly replied about combustion engine not R744 Sorry, start again.

"Sterling Cycle?" dont know.

"by the use of shaved ice" only in prototype professional cooling is needed for market model.

"how you're getting the pressures" R774 is CO2 no shortage of data on internet, even Wikepdia. Search for CO2 pressure temperature. CO2 31.1*C 74 barg. CO2 120*C 10,000 barg. Failing that refer Oklahoma University USA.

Can understand your frustration, had many an engineer doubter but they couldnt ignore the working model, even took it apart and showed them, they still walked away shaking their head, but come to grips in time.

Think steam turbine for basic principal of operation.

Important to remember 1 litre flow per second at 9 barg pressure and 80% efficient hydro turbine is 720 watts . Double the pressure 1440 watts. Double the flow 1440 watts. Increasing either increases wattage output.

If you into home power any wattage can be had so long the air temperature is above 1*C, high flow in place of high pressure. Higher the temperature the smaller the turbine needed. Such is the properties of R744.

For furtherance on CO2 pressure at temperature graph see Oklahoma University. For hydro turbine see California University. Good luck the whole thing only took me six years, morning noon and night.

Cheers

Peter

"The larger the cylinder the less pressure needed for Diesel combustion. Max 300 Psi." An interesting claim (size vs. pressure) - why have I never heard it before? It would logically cause Diesel engine manufacturers to build three-cylinder engines (minimum for fully-balanced) instead of V-8s and even V-12s (Audi R-10) - unless, as has been pointed out, the low end of compression will lead to loss of efficiency and a dirty exhaust. The claim would also say that heating by sunlight ought to cause large storage tanks to explode with regularity; the air pressure will increase, and there's already air and fuel in an enormous cylinder...

You still haven't explained how you get the fuel in, absent injectors. If provided separately from the air supplied to the chamber, it must enter at a higher pressure in order to have flow.

"Gas bubbles only blow through water when traveling upward, never downward." They travel downward a short distance under the urge of an aquarium pump, and you're looking to start compression at at least ten times that pressure, and then increase it by a huge factor at the "whoomph."

" '...an order of magnitude higher.' No 300 Psi is quite sufficient." No accounting for the pressure AFTER ignition? And how do the CO2 / R744 / R774 pressure values relate? STILL don't see you answering what this last substance is supposed to be, though you've been asked.

"No!, releif valve only vents combusted gasses. Fuel and fuel vapour stored in fuel tank not cylinder A." So your layout has the relief in the stretch between the "DaS engine" exhaust output and fuel tank(s), and there must then be a one-way valve of some sort to prevent backflow and mixing of the fuel vapors into that region? Pressure pulsations will be interesting to deal with; this should be as sensitive as a two-stroke engine to exhaust tuning - though everything I've read here still suggests that it will operate at a very leisurely pace relative to ordinary modern engines. The needed time for gas bubbles to rise in water, for example, calls for slow operation.

Someone else has pointed out the likelihood that this would be a VERY dirty engine; since you have water as your piston, the maximum operating temperature is limited because even at 300psi water will boil at roughly 422*F (~215*C) if I read the steam tables correctly. Normally, keeping temperature high improves efficiency and reduces pollution, so these are not good numbers.

Now I must say the truth, though it may be painful: I don't believe that you are comprehending what is being said to you, nor do you understand the motives of respondents. You've been asked multiple questions, and given only half-answers, or evasive ones, ignoring "the elephant in the room" portions. Perhaps you can't see the implications of the facts presented. You've been asked - repeatedly - to clarify your diagrams, and failed to do so. You've promised to post a photo showing the device ["complete with gash", I believe you said], but only showed what you yourself said was a poor photo, from which no internal structure or layout can be obtained. You said that you are providing this as a way to communicate the plans to us and to the world, but the diagrams are unintelligible to working engineers, as far as I can determine. I apologize if this seems harsh, but polite inquiries and clear requests for information don't seem to have worked. (if someone subscribed to this thread DOES fully understand the diagrams, could you please explain to others, including me? Thank you!)

Hello Ron,

I cant argue with what you say, however when one realises the earth is flat, man cant fly, space travell is bullsh-t, the flag on the moon is a hoax and driving across mars is lunatic one takes into account someone was wrong. Also a working model does not fit with some experts.

The fuel and air are pressurised in two seperate actions. The pressure for these actions come from the exhaust pressure. Please refer previous comments this site. My having to explain againa nd again points out readers arent reading whole site only limited numbers.

The fuel is mixed in with the water return then the incoming air pressurises to combustion point unlike Diesel which has reached pressure combustion point before the Diesel is forced in.

"CO2 / R744 / R774 pressure values relate?" R744 is a refrigerant gas, R744 in fact is Co2 by a different name.

"don't see you answering what this last substance is supposed to be, though you've been asked" specifiacly answered to prior comment of another who asked is R744 in fact CO2 and my answer BINGO!

"The needed time for gas bubbles to rise in water, for example, calls for slow operation" this problem is overcome by forcing the water back at the same pressure it was forced out.

"at 300psi water will boil at roughly 422*F (~215*C) if I read the steam tables correctly" yes that boil off is increased to flash steam at combustion. No other engine combines by combustion pressure and steam pressure to acheive a total pressure as yet unknown in full.

There are many who argue it wont work but the fact it does causes some concern among some.

"could you please explain to others, including me? Thank you!)" I can only tell people what I observe to happen and other information I have been able to aquire. Pointless telling me all the reasons why it wont work cause it's like trying to explain away the elephant standing next to you.

I did not join this site to assertain if it would work but convey how it does work and and give Australin people free right to copy.

If you have questions please ask, the longer the ramble the less I can get a grip on whats being asked.

Cheers

Peter

" 'CO2 / R744 / R774 pressure values relate?' R744 is a refrigerant gas, R744 in fact is Co2 by a different name."

In posts #2, #4, and #6 you referred to R774. I believe it was Tornado who first asked what that was. I have asked more than once, including the post you are answering here; again - what is R774? ACTUALLY explain a detail once, and you won't be asked again and again. You need to replace responses with answers - that is, responses which actually connect with what was asked. Further, you need to answer EACH question, and each point, when clear and specific information is being requested, if you truly wish to communicate the design.

Your first paragraph of this post, by the way, might belong over in "Curbing the Spread of Pseudoscience" - a very active thread at present. I'd say that anyone who believes most of these premises is willfully ignorant, if they've been exposed to any education worthy of the name.

Some poster did ask if R744 is in fact CO2, and my response "BINGO!"

Furtherence CO2 is also known as the Refrigerant R744, making it a fantasic gas to deal with as its coolant properties are already known.

Cooling is done using CO2 trick of turning into dry ice at low presuure.

The other joy is CO2 is a strange gas in that at supercritical temperature it behaves as if it was water.

(from YOUR OWN post #2: "Process is this R774 is cool liquid..." my emphasis)

OK, once again, slowly - We already knew what R744 was back at post #3 when Tornado said, "For those not in the refrigeration world, R744 = CO₂. R774 = ??"

Seven hundred forty four IS NOT equal to seven hundred seventy four, or in numerals, 744 is not equal to 774; therefore, R744 IS NOT equal to R774. How do you add 30 to CO₂ and get R774? Thirty what is being added? Is this CO₃₂? Or C₃₀O₂? Or C₁₅O₁₇? Is the number arbitrary? [And yes, I know enough chemistry to realize that those "molecular formulas" are absurd]

Never have so many got it so wrong, and oh those swine selling as refrigerant R774.

Hello tcmtech,

getting away from having moving parts. The check valves are floating spheres remaining constant on water. Therefore not moving in itself.

would need to work for very long time. Something like a piston engine.

irrationally high system pressures. Depending on what you define a rational pressure.

would impart and incredible amount of physical stress. Yes they conquered that to stop space shuttle from being tinsel after ignition.

Just out of curiosity how do you get a plastic garbage can, garden hoses, and a 55 gallon drum to stay together at 150,000 PSI? Have absolutely no idea. Not silly enough to try. However lower pressure proof of concept works well.

same effect with water by putting it in a solidly sealed container and removing enough energy as well. Havent gone down that road sounds interesting.

Sorry but from what I still see from all of this is. Thats why I rely on University teachings on such matters.

Cheers

Peter

And, at the water/gas interface the water will absorb the gas over time.

Stu