Dear Friends Of Timber Jetties

Lag screws (and other wood-engaging threads) = crap.

Through- or U-bolts, with generous back-up washers, = at least decent.

Hot-dip galvanizing is better than electroplating.

Treated wood also helps, but there are pollution issues about various treatment types.

You mean these? This is from the old section. Rex, he died recently. told me all about how the original was built. It lasted for decades and most of the structure is still there. I am certain they would have protested back then, if asked to use these screws.

I just don't have the time to do the research but there must be some kind of standards? Even in houses here the standards are or seem better. Who would approve something like that? I think they just wanted to save the time for drilling.

See what comes out of this, Ky.

Tornado, exactly! There is no substitute for through bolting with generous, hot dipped bolts and large washers, backing plates or fish plates. SS annular nails are fine for construction of preserved wood foundation houses, (I built my own house this way).

My own modest pier, 60', has steel piles and cross members, but the wood joists and stringers are attached with galvanized through bolts, and I live on relatively sheltered bay on Lake Ontario.

Cheers

Martin

Hi Baxter

At least we don't have to put up with ice mulching away at the timbers in the winter. If they would have proceeded in the way you suggest we would still have a jetty. You should come along one day when we have (had) full length dinner parties. Not BBQ's but table cloth and the lot.

Anyway, your reply was very helpful. Thanks, Ky.

Hi Ky,

I tend to think that there are old-school ways of constructing these things that require fewer metal connectors, and more wood jointed intersections. of various types.

or how about a cribbed pier, filled with rock?

anyway, it was always about the sun, sand, and friends, not the beer... (we got that here..lol)

cheers

Chris

Thanks for the suggestions Chris

You know, the old way worked perfectly fine. No need to introduce joining methods that would be very time consuming, considering the wood being used. The new stuff is quiet green by the looks of it but hard and sufficient for the job. I am not the expert.

What I would like to know is if there are any standards available for such structures. Trust me, I would do some slow searching and end up having to pay for a version. Just need to know if the "hairpins" being used would pass certification for this application.

In the end they spend our money on it. It's a hard time on all at the moment but there will be times when this will come up. It's really about bad engineers trying to pull the wool over the communities eyes.

We'll fish off the end one day, Ky.

I think you meant piers not peers.

It may be the wood is softer than the original as well as screws not being a good idea. I cannot think that structural components would be built without the use of bolts. We had a bad experience in NZ when bolts were not used on a cantilevered viewing platform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Creek_disaster where 14 young adults died.

Don't you have Iron wood or some other material (equivalent to our Puriri) that is very hard and strong and ideal for this sort of application and does not need treatment for rot and borer?

Thank you Smeaton

Yep discussing piers with my peers.

Cave Creek, I remember now. I'll have to read a bit more and see what the outcome was. There was an outcome, wasn't there?

It's not so much the timbers it's the integrity of the fasteners which need to be pointed out. It's just so obviously a bad job.

I'd better get going. Still a lot of cleanup to be done, Ky.

Ky,

Try posing the question to the building/Architecture department of James Cook Uni and/or the Townsville city council building inspectors ....

You are correct, if it had been done right it would have survived ..... can the contractors be held liable for shoddy workmanship?

Keep up the good work

Bill

Thanks Bill

I think they should be or at least they should be insured. The insurance company will have to work out if pure negligence was at work here.

The other reason I am posting this on CR4 is to get away from the local politics and just collect some unbiased data or advice on an international level. This should be evaluated at first world level and not some banana republic.

Townsville UNI is a last resort. It is all in the hands of the Main Roads department and who can blame who the fastest. It stinks and it is so obvious that the work was not carried out proper.

I should have posted this under Civil Engineering I suppose. I'll see what others have to say.

You seem to be from the area? Hope all is well, Ky.

Stainless steel decking screws are made for domestic decks not piers, and of no more than 22 mm thick at that.

I suspect the contractor quoted to do a "deck" and was surprised to find that the "deck" was on a jetty but couldn't afford the cost to do the job properly. The alternative is to think that s/he deliberately cut corners.

Any job of this nature i have done has always architects/engineers specifications. I always followed the specs and so i do not know if they did any checks after the completion of the job. MAybe there were no checks done here.

I am sure that someone must have signed off on the job. It was possibly a cosmetic procedure followed up by a couple of cold ones down the pub. Sort of "she'll be right Mate" and "lets have one for the road".

The screws are M5 or M6 by 200mm, I did not take the exact size. In all that chaos they looked more like "hairpins" anyway. No plan, no specks and cutting corners results in such failure.

Thanks Jimrat, Ky.

Does this look infantile or what?

No Charlie, they are the screws. One size fits all. They seem stainless (Wearing a magnet in public has been outlawed on the Island so I could not test).

We have 4m tides around here. On the night they could have been 5m to 6m. It did take a pounding alright. The thing is that most of the new stuff is gone and the old structure is still there. Unless interfered with by loose new logs, which would act as a nice leaver, the old structure would have stayed intact.

I don't have a before photo but I betcha that they did a fresh connection to the pilings.

Never mind, would you use anything to fasten new timbers to such a substructure? My plant nursery withstood, to an extent, and it had (has) sails on it.

It took me an hour of chainsawing to get to her. I'll take some shots of how she was anchored. I would not have used what they have to build her.

She is bouncing back. Wish you were not here, Ky.

My questions about tides and piers have to do more with a possible replacement pier idea. My ideas are based on the pier at Tropic Star Lodge in Piñas Bay Panama:

This picture does not do it justice. You are looking down the longer concrete pier (foreground) to which is attached an aluminum ramp, which ends on a steel float which is what the boats are tied to. Normal tidal range is 4 to 5 meters. Most severe storm ever has been a near-gale (estimated wind speed on the order of 70 knots, short-fetch meter+ waves- problem was, fetch of the waves was less than 1/2 the length of the float!). Survived with no damage.

There may be better pictures on their web site.

There are no fasteners anywhere between shore and boats, except where the aluminum ramp attaches to the concrete pier (a point which, on occasion, is under water). This is through-bolted, with the bolts generally being replaced annually.

The float is attached to four steel pilings (visible in the photo) with roller mechanisms. The pilings were just replaced (by the owner and me and a bunch of local unskilled laborers), after more than 30 years in sea water. The steel float (pulled out and painted every year) probably has another 20 years of life left in it.

The concrete section is a concrete slab supported by concrete pillars. All of this was built without the benefit of modern equipment- the lodge is only accessible by boat or by plane- the nearest road is 120 miles distant. Through virgin rain forest.

Every bag of cement was carried onto the beach on the back of an Indian (in some cases, still in his loin cloth, carrying his bow and arrows so he could hunt for dinner on his way home).

Another repair operation we have had to conduct in recent years- thirty years in to the life of the concrete pier, the concrete pilings in some sections had subsided, causing a sagging in the concrete pier. We jacked it up manually and installed new concrete pilings (molded on site with hand-mixed concrete).

You are too close to civilization, which is why people get away with shoddy work there.

somewhere in my photo collection, I used to have pictures of the installation of the new pilings, both for the float, and for the concrete pier. If you are interested, maybe I could dig them out one of these days.

This does nothing to help with your current dilemma, but maybe can help point in a direction for the future. (If you know a hurricane is coming, the floating dock can be beached, where the damage it can do can be minimized).

Howzat goin' Mate

Good points Charlie. I am preparing some pics from the new ferry terminal. Very similar case. You will just not believe it. Its only a few years old... well... a picture tells a thousand words.

The Schlendrian

http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Schlendrian.html

has crept in as we say in Germany. Too much too fast.

Talk to you soon, Ky.

Ky,

The pilings appear to be just fine. Yes I would attach new structure to them without hesitation. Again, they would be generous threaded, galvanized fasteners. If they work loose do to weather, aging, or who knows what, they can, and in fact as part of routine maintenance, be tightened.

Martin

Thanks Martin

The thing is that "they?" don't want it at all. It was a big fight to have it fixed in the first place. I mean like in choppers flying over and at the head of news. This is just rubbing it in. For the Mexicans (anything south of Bunderberg is Mexico here), who want it their way, it is open slather, catch as catch can sort of stuff. They call them selves developers but are only speculators (with other peoples money) and .......

_{Just shut up Ky!!}

I could fix it proper with this guy at my side. It would take a while but we would get there. Don't even need a forklift. Thanks Jason, bloody Kiwi bastard.

You mentioned the insurance company. If this structure was insured, then let the insurance company hire a licensed professional engineer to evaluate the structure, note any locally adopted code violations, and recommend repair or replacement. After all, it's the insurance company's funds that are on the line, along with the engineer's opinion and reputation. Good luck.

Thanks Guest

We are entering the local political arena here. There are forces that want that jetty gone altogether. They are creaming themselves. For the insurance company of the contractor it must be a nightmare, if the structure was insured at all. We needed extra insurance to do anything and that has stopped a lot of people using the jetty at all.

Nanny state in full swing, Ky.

I have seen very similar failures here, even though we don't have tropical cyclones to deal with. I do not know of any "standards" that might apply, but, in a marine environment, it doesn't matter whether one uses hot-dipped or electroplated galvanized, the fasteners are going to corrode, which means increasing in physical dimension, which means expanding the original deformation/damage of the wood fibers caused when the screws were first installed. Depending on the wood used, chemicals in the wood may actually accelerate the process.

There is also a good chance that the fasteners were selected for convenience, rather than to meet engineering standards, which means they were most likely undersized for the intended function.

It is not clear from the photos what shape the pilings are in. If the pilings are salvageable, you may have a better chance of rebuilding. What is the normal tidal range in your part of the ocean?

Hi Ky,

just to understand your objectives and constraints better, I have a couple of questions.

1) who is responsible for, or in charge of the jetty? (and budget?)
2) is this where the ferry docks? (I don't think so but...)
3) are you hoping to act as a consultant to the repair effort?
4) what are the current financial repair estimates?
5) is this just a concern for picnic bay residents, or for the whole island?
6) what are all the uses of the jetty? (and requirements)
7) are you (magnets) willing to look at other engineered replacement solutions?

you could bottle up some of that tropical sunshine and warmth and send it here.

cheers,

Chris

Good one Chris and thanks for your reply too Charlie

To answer your questions:

1) who is responsible for, or in charge of the jetty? (and budget?)

1. The buck is still being passed. There are other more immediate problems at hand. I am not part of the politics around here but am witnessing the spreading of false information. Like in "The work carried out was done to specifications", my behind!

2) is this where the ferry docks? (I don't think so but...)

2. No the main landing is just down the road, next bay. It is constructed as Charlie laid out. Floating pontoon. Here is a pic:

3) are you hoping to act as a consultant to the repair effort?

3. No, I just wish to get some information about the screws being used because I doubt very much they are what was required.

4) what are the current financial repair estimates?

4. Way too early to say. There are other problems that need fixing first. I just know from the grapevine that nothing good is on the way for the jetty.

5) is this just a concern for picnic bay residents, or for the whole island?

5. No it's the whole Island. And the visitors who like to wet a line.

6) what are all the uses of the jetty? (and requirements)

6. Some people have made it a tradition to propose at the head of the jetty. A many old diggers have had their ashes spread from the there. On very hot days it is the perfect place to be and to have a cold one. Just sitting there watching Australia seemingly go by. It's more of an institution than a pier, really.

Ah. and the fishing!! I could show you some photos but since Photo shop.....well.....you got to see it to believe it .

7) are you (magnets) willing to look at other engineered replacement solutions?

I have one but the Purple brigade and the Council and their civil engineers will not like it. You know, just build it from Lego and if broken up, collect the debris and build a new one. If in doubt magnetize them and put a steel boundary around the Island to attract the Lego's.

Then asphalt the beaches on a low tide and fill (pour, sorry skipper) concrete in the gaps between the rocks. That should recover even more. The few Lego's eaten by turtles, and so, are collateral damage, as are the people responsible for this dilemma, getting back to my point.

BTW, the person receiving my insurance claim is either going to faint, have a good study of it, or just rubber stamp it. They are so on their hind legs!

You know, one important thing I have noticed is that nobloodybody died. We are so lucky to live in a civilized country!! If this would have happened in a third world country many would have perished. Wow, we are so lucky.

It's all still a mess, Ky.

Looks like you might have some recourse here. I note that they do not feature your jetty on their web site...Maybe some published photos of their work would encourage them to consider accelerating repairs?

Like I said Charlie, the jetty is the least of our worries. Come time come responsibility.

there on that website is exactly the kind of 'notched timber' construction I was thinking of.

They didn't do it that way, obviously. They cut corners at some stage. We'll see.

Chris, exactly! Big ass through bolts and generous backing plates. There is no other economical way, (Japanese hardwood pegs/wedges would probably work, if installed by a master, but hideously expensive.)

Martin

"Big Ass" is the only way to go when dealing with Mother Nature!

Thanks for providing the scale. I see now that they are "tek screws". Type 17 hex headed s.s. screws. I have no doubt the Mexicans put them in with a cordless drill and as the drill found it hard going they said " jees mate that'l never go anywhere."

They need a caning to show them the error of their ways. Ah! brings back memories. Can't do it now, have to sue instead. This gives work to the lawyers who would otherwise have nothing to do.

I have used these screws and they are good, but only as good as screws can be. I hope these same mexicans haven't built balconies using these screws where they should have been bolted. Hence the reason for the caning feedback.

If i bring a 30 pack can i come and help?

Hi jimrat

I had replied yesterday but have no idea were that reply ended up. In principle anyone wanting to help is welcome. It must have been edited because I mentioned something about legal eagles and insurance companies. Well, no surprises there.

I hear that you guys are being belted your selves. Lets see what happens, Ky.

I'd say they missed by an order of magnatitude on fastners

big ass deck screws are fine for attaching the deck to the structural members [he said member]

maybe in some places lag bolts

as more of a locating pin to keep the framework from falling off the top of the piers. These lag bolts would need pre-drilled holes & be in the neighborhood of 300mm long minimum & 15mm thick

I would also expect to find

joist hangers or other bits of sheet metal in the corners.

I'm seeing toenailing which shows a lack of planning, just wacking some screws as an after thought

Hi Garth

Those are the ones I used on my shade shed. It was on a slab so not much of a problem. I think the reasons for the jetty braking up are with out doubt linked to the use of inadequate fasteners.

You know, it still looks like on the photos but is now blocked from entering. We have about 2 months of Cyclone season to go. One more and the whole thing is gone. Just speculating about members and what they are good for.

I'd better get to it, Ky.

I just had alook at Hope Divings' web site. I filled in the 'contact' details and said that if the jetty on Magnetic island was an example of their highly experienced carpenters work then i would tell everyone i know not to use them. When i pushed the 'submit' button it came back "web site could not be found".

Sounds like they are on the back foot.

Good luck

Jim

Flash, isn't it?

Ignore my last post; just got an auto generated email saying they got my email and will respond soon.

We wait with bated breath....

Tornado

I think I'm picking up the sound of hornets.

I wonder what they will come up with, if any. They'd smell a rat if I requested the information. Then again, I think they have that odor around them anyway. Not something to be proud of that's for sure.

Thanks for that jimrat. Howzit goin' were you are?

Hi Jim

I am not surprised, at all. That will not stand up in court and if they don't settle that's were it will end up. The are still saying that the old structure is to blame. Well there is enough evidence to prove they are way off the mark.

We are just getting back to "normal" after nearly 3 weeks. Gosh it is a mess out there. She'll be right as rain Mate. Don't you worry about that. Bloody banana benders poisoned by Mexican beer

Just spoke to young Kev' (81) yesterday. He wants his ashes off the end of the jetty. I promised I shall try and see that he goes the way many of his Mates have gone. I hope I can keep my promise. He was really upset about it.

I'll keep you up to date, Ky.

They just need to be judged by a jury of their piers!

Now, that is a pun!

Ah Knowed it wuz!

Speaking of "anodes", comma,

howse come they dont hook up all dem metal pieces

to a giant chunka Al, which they replace ever 5 years or so?

Aluminum here Aluminium there:

samo sumo