PowerBoss Energy Savings on Motors

I share your skepticism. Motors by their very nature reduce the current when the load decreases, and vice-versa.

Well after looking at the site with its flashy graphics and extensive use of marketing buzz-words, I really don't know either. something about limiting startup current (likely by switching the waveform), saving power during periods of no-load (by switching the motor off entirely), etc.

Removing all the marketing, I also come up with a VSD type device. I am sure it works but, there is just not enough information provided anywhere on the site to get a feel for what is going on. The case studies are even worse. If you read them carefully the amazing savings occur when this device replaces DOL motors and/or motors with very low periods of full load (ie- naturally inefficient running most of the time under light or no load conditions) and some don't even seem to have soft starters.

I have a feeling that they are trying to hide the fact that their product is just a VSD with a timed shutdown feature, especially when more effort is put into the sections regarding becoming a distributor. Treat with great scepticism . I would just request information from the company to see what the real story is, just out of interests sake, hey it may even have a feature you could use that a VSD doesn't have.

Thanks for all the history and insight. My skepticism was real.

Great thread, and amusing, thanks.

Codey

I am looking to buy PowerBoss Integra's Does anyone have any the want to sell?

As has been stated, the technology is old and works only in very rare circumstances, and furthermore Somar are well aware of this. The difficulty of finding those few applications which show savings is why they sell through distributors, some of whom may value their time low enough to make it economic. (It may also be that in less advanced countries the motors are of older design and morelilkely to show savings.)

Less charitably, I think their business is all about selling _to_ distributors, with little interest in their success. One look at their web site shows that they have evey interest in selling distributorships and none in selling product, since you cannot get a list of distributors.

I am interested in receiving emails to info@barbecana.com from distributors indicating their experiences and have been advertizing in the Economist, where they advertize. (If anyone knows anywhere else they advertize, please also let me know.) I am building up a database of distributors, and have about 50 or 60 as of July 5th 2007.

So, it is fake. I just noticed their ad in Economist and hoped to explore further, but by reading this, I probably will be refrained from doing it.

Do you have a list of distributors? I am interested in hearing the what distributors say about this. You can contact me at info@ahayainc.com

Thanks so much,

Hong

The word "fake" implies that it does nothing, so that would be technically incorrect. It does function, it's just that the benefits they claim in some of their older websites are greatly exaggerated, to the point of being ALMOST fraudulent (I am being careful here because they have threatened to sue people I know). I have been told that they recently toned down their claims on the main Somar website (I have not visited recently nor do I care to), but for sure, many of their distributors still go ahead and make the wild claims, probably because if they don't, the products don't sell. I do know that all of their distributors must fork over a heavy buy-in, more than any other manufacturer I have seen, and as such they will likely say whatever it takes to try to recoup that investment.

By the way, good luck on finding distributors, I have been told they will refuse to share that information, probably because they don't want any of them talking to each other.

You may also find this other Forum useful in that regard. this is the largest thread on Somar, but there are others as well, including discussions of other brands, if you back up in the forum list.

http://www.lmpforum.com/inforum/index.php?showtopic=828

I have an email list of 250 or so distributors and ex-distributors. Quite a few of these email addresses are no longer valid, which I think in itself tells you something about the success of the businesses. I am not publishing this for now, but might try to get a system together whereby they can individually authorise disclosure. I do however have a much shorter list (of about 30) created purely from public sources, normally their websites. This is available on www.barbecana.com/incredible.htm. I also might be able to help put people in touch on an individual basis if they email me on twelsh@barbecana.com.

btw, they actually tell new distributors on the training course (after they have paid their money) that if they try to sell the product based on electricity saving they will fail.

I am a distributor and they do NOT tell you that.

They may have changed their training since, but they absolutely did say exactly that -- more than once, and along with other discouraging comments -- on a training course I attended in 2006. Of the 5 or 6 people on the course I think only one went on to try to sell the product, and he failed. I am now in touch with over 100 distributors and (mostly) ex-distributors and all but a handful believe that Somar is dishonest in its claims. (Even the few who do not blame Somar have mostly failed, while others have other relationships with Somar which they have an incentive not to disrupt.)

Think about this. If you had a good product available through an international distributor network, would your website not include a way for potential customers to find their local distributor?

Somar's revenue is so small that they do not have to disclose it under UK law, which means it must be largely derived just from the 50 to 100 distributorships they sell each year rather than product sold to end users. This is their business.

You are a failed Somar distributor and are blaming Somar for your failure. If there was any credence to your story then you would have further published your threads but have come to a standstill because you have NO support.

Dear Friend

Hello . hope you are in good health. we are one of the effecties of Somar International UK. i saw your and few of other ppl discussion regarding Somar Product Powerboss Integra . i agreed with all of your points. i want to discussed with you in detail. plz reply me asap



regards

WALEED AQDAS

I am a motor controller dealer, and one of our products is made by Somar. I spent months and thousands of dollars investing in my business. All I can tell you is that none of you have ever seen it work. It is in use throughout 75 countries and some huge blue chip companies. The technology has received many, many green awards throughout the world also. I have many, many satisfied customers, who keep coming back. Check them out on my website www.managingenergy.us ,and more importantly don't discuss something that you have never seen, but rather have only read about in articles by amateurs. I find your comments nothing short of amusing.

I have indeed seen it, I have indeed tested it, I have indeed found their claims to be wildly exaggerated. Sorry, but THAT is the truth. There just are not very many real-world applications out there where this technology offers any kind of appreciable savings without also making significant adjustments to the equipment use profile. And if the user were to do that alone, they would have saved most of that energy anyway.

I am a professional and I am the first "guest" who posted the response above that people found amusing. And yes, I am posting anonymously because they (Somar UK) have threatened me with a lawsuit in the past for speaking the truth. They have never followed through because they know they will lose, but it cost me money for an attorney and I don't want to hassle with that again.

The fact that you are anonymous indicates to me that you are NOT real. Somar is way too busy to sue you.

I didn't say they sued me, I said they threatened to sue me. They did it by letter, which meant I had to have my lawyer write a response. I never heard a peep from them again, but it still cost me money.

You misread my comment. I said they don't have time to sue..........meaning in the present, so come clean and stop hiding behind "anonymous". I intend to call them tomorrow anyway and refer them to the lies and jealousy on this forum. I am sure they will know who you are. If the product really wasn't any good, there would be a lot more people on this forum. Works for me !!

You will no doubt do what you feel you must in order to protect the sizable investment they forced you to make. I have nothing to gain from speaking the truth; I am not selling anything here and the only concept I am promoting is that of scrutiny. If anyone needs honesty, it is you, who stands to gain financially from continuing the promotion of these exaggerations. I feel for you.

Dear Sir,

we also a distributor of somar products. we are working on it from last two years. we took audit form different kind of motor . i.e. steel mills , marble factories and many more. but we continuesly faild to found energy saving. can you help and guide us if you said that the said product is good or working as somar said in their website ...

regards

Waleed aqdas

You are right to be skeptical. It is not a VFD. It works -- or more accurately, doesn't work -- in constant velocity applications by reducing voltage when load is light, the latter apparently detected by phase difference between voltage and current. Marginally effective in saving a small percentage of the small percentage of the power used when load is light, but rarely produces a worthwhile gain. Company makes its money selling dealerships. See www.somardealer.com.

Somar makes it's money by selling expensive, useless dealerships!!

I paid a big sum for the dealership and invested money and time in advertising for Powerboss. I convinced 2 companies producing or using motors for cooling/freezer-systems to test Powerboss. The result was devastating: "no real measurable savings in energy consumptions" Other companies I contacted had already been contacted by other distributors years or months before and Powerboss had also failed/not kept the promisses.

I can just recomend everyone who thinks about buying a dealership (who needs to sell dealerships if they can make money by selling their product??) DON'T DO IT !!

After threatening to sue Somar and sending all my Powerboss-stock back and after several lengthly phonecalls with the management they reimbused 50 % of my payments and I agreed in writing to move on and not to sue them. I have had contact to several former dealers worldwide and none of them was successful in selling this Product.......

The responses from EMAC are totally self serving and erroneous! He is a crooked distributor trying to sell "sub distributorships" to unsuspecting victims. He has ripped off many people promising them distribution rights, support and training. He has also made many mis-representations about the product and the benefits. Wherever and whenever possible efforts should be made to put EMAC out of business!

Dear Spencer and skeptics, I would like to start out by saying I typically do not respond to these types of statements but this is so convoluted and inaccurate on several points it is ridiculous. Our company has been in business for approximately 2.5 years in the US and even during these tough economic times we have been successful in selling Integra. We have been accepted by four utility companies in our area and have also been in there news letter as a proven energy savings device. We have shown savings of over 50% on some instances. This savings has also been verified by 3rd party testing from the utility companies themselves. This product works in several applications as we have installed it on the following applications: conveyor belts, compressors, injection molding machines, rock crushers, mixers, shakers, bailers, stamp presses, roll mills, water pumps, vacuum pumps, fountains, blowers and pump jacks. So if these are very rare circumstances where it works, I'm ok with this! I would also like to address the Nola device. The NOLA device (Invented by Frank Nola) was the subject of a patent made by NASA (for whom he worked) in the 1970's and frankly speaking used analogue technology to reduce the voltage to an electric motor during periods of no load, using thyristor or triac switching. The technology was invented to reduce battery usage on space vehicles but was never actually used. The technology suffered with problems due to the slow speed of the analogue circuitry and was never properly developed. The patent was made available free of charge to any American company willing to try and 'move the technology forward'. As you can imagine quite a few companies tried to bring the technology to market and I know of none that made it work successfully in the industry. However during the 1990's fast, reliable and inexpensive digital technology became available and a few companies outside of America (Fairford Electronics UK, Aucom NZ and Somar UK) started intense development programs to re-launch the technology as a viable method of saving electricity in AC fixed speed motors with suitable duty cycles. As far as I am aware Aucom are no longer trading and only Fairford and Somar have viable products that work consistently on the many varied applications in the market place and because of this are still trading after 15 or so years. Much like anything else Integra has come a long way. Somar has developed individual firmware routines within Integra for dozens of industrial applications to enable the controller to maximize energy savings and just as importantly to correctly react to motor load without causing supply or motor problems due to current peaks. In order to do this you must correctly analyze the motor torque requirements by simultaneously measuring a number of the motors electrical parameters, perform calculations and provide the motor with the correct torque characteristics for smooth operation which was impossible to do in using the Nola patent. In addition to optimization Integra provides many other functions. To say the Integra is 'just another Nola device' is incorrect as throughout the life of the Nola patent the technology never actually worked consistently and was never developed into a serious industrial technology until well after the actual patent expired. Comparing Integra with the Nola device is rather like comparing a Wagon and Horses with a Mercedes S class. Try to imagine if computers had not progressed or improved since the 70's, I guess we would still be using DOS as an operating system. So let's not go back in time with NOLA and hold Somar's feet to the fire for bringing this improved technology and making it a viable product. I cannot believe someone would take the advice from a person or persons who obviously have no experience with Integra. I believe this to be true because you can't think everyone out there who invested their hard earned money into a product and did not thoroughly check it out first. Keep in mind Somar is the manufacturer and don't all manufactures sell to distributors who in turn sell to the end user. Its unfortunate you skeptics are misinformed by people from the past who have failed in sales and are trying to blame shift it onto the developer and manufacturer.

Thank you for taking the time to respond!

I appreciate the history.

I'm in R&D, so am not directly involved in the energy use of our companies, but I am interested in energy saving. I do have enough influence that if someone were to convince me of significant energy savings on our motors, I'm sure I could convince the powers to be to at least invest in a test unit or two. Obviously if those units performed as expected, then many more would be purchased.

I am a scientist, so I need to know how the device works and see convincing numbers showing how waste was eliminated. I want specific examples showing all pertinent values for a significant time (a month would be absolute minimum, a full year would be more convincing) before and after installation of the device. Convince me!

The original question was about a device called 'Power Boss'. You are talking about 'Integra'. Is that the same device with a new name? "New and improved"?

You provided no link or address to find out more about your product or products. If you have something worth buying, show me!

dkwarner,

I had posted a similar link earlir in this thread to a different forum thread dedicated to Somar, but that entire forum is specific to energy savers in general and will enlighten you on not only the feelings of most responsile engineers that participate, but also provides links to other papers and reports on the efficacy of the technology. The bottom line it, it does work, but the actual savings are not as great as the sellers claim and most of the time, the user must wait a long time to recoup the cost of the device in energy savings.

depending on your location, you might want to go to www.emc3llc.com

we represent Somar powerboss motor controllers in the northeast US

DOPI,

Your comments are totally biased and therefore worthless IMHO. The fact remains that this technology has little real benefit to users and although you can find places where it does save a little, it usually involves a grossly over designed machine or there has been a radical change in the process where a motor that was needed for a specific task is no longer needed but was never changed. Most of those applications would be better served by simply replacing the over sized motor with a newer energy efficient one that is properly sized.

I have seen several "studies" by third party agencies that purportedly confirm the energy savings, they have all fallen into two categories: 1) the "agency" was a front for the very people selling the product, or 2) the report ACTUALLY concluded that the devices did nothing significant in terms of saving energy! One I read came to this conclusion, but the seller posted it and claimed that it said exactly the opposite! They were undoubtedly assuming that whomever read it would be so bored as to not actually read the entire report.

As to your claim that "digital" is the answer to why your system is better than the original Nola circuit, I say rubbish. Power Factor Control is Power Factor Control. The speed at which it takes place has no bearing on the outcome. The only way you can save 50% of the energy a motor is consuming is if the motor was WASTING MORE THAN 50% OF THE ENERGY IT WAS CONSUMING! I have NEVER come across a machine that was so poorly designed. Never.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that a Power Factor Controller can save energy, but the claims are GROSSLY exaggerated. I sold a lot of Nola devices when they first came out, some of my customers did indeed save a little bit of energy. But the failure of the overall concept was based on the mistaken belief that a lot of energy was being wasted in motors. It had nothing to do with analog vs digital.

By the way, Somar and Fairford are by no means the only one's selling this junk. The last time I counted I was at 33 manufacturers of these things, all of them using words like "revolutionary", "never before seen", "new digital design", "space age" blah blah blah. In fact I know the founder of Aucom and he specifically stopped promoting this concept BECAUSE he found that it really didn't work! Fairford, to their credit, has backed off on their exaggerated claims after being sued by some consumer protection agencies and now focus on the benefits of just being a soft starter. Of the ones you mentioned, only Somar is still in the business of promoting the exaggerated claims of energy savings with these products, and lately I have seen that Somar has backed down a bit on their official corporate website, leaving it to the local distributors to do the "dirty work" of duping people into believing this.

I have no dog in this fight, I just hate seeing people throw money down a hole instead of investigating real energy savings techniques. What's real when it comes to motor energy savings?

• Energy efficient motor upgrades
• Proper motor sizing
• Replacing flow control valves and air vanes with Variable Frequency Drives (in some applications)
• Replacing fluid couplings and magnetic clutches with Soft Starters or VFDs (where applicable)
• Process optimization, i.e. cleaning filters ore often, reducing flow restrictions, eliminating compressed air leaks, better compressor cycle timing etc. etc.
• Heck, even better grease will likely save you more energy than a Power Boss!

Signed,

3PAR (#3 Post Anonymous Respondent)

^{I'm still posting anonymously because I am not in the mood to have my attorney write another letter to Somar when they threaten me (but never follow through).}

Finally a qualified individual has responded to the chatter!

And no, its not just because I agree with DOPBI...its because he is right.

The misinformation and misunderstanding of so many with regard to a/c motor basic truths is appalling.

Any a/c constant speed induction motor running under lightly loaded conditions(which almost all motors do under the influence of thier duty cycle) will show savings to one extent or another when under the control of the powerboss integra motor controller.

For loads with a substantial on-time and insignificant off-time (on and off load times) the savings will be small and the ROI will not be economically feasible unless the on load power factor qualifies the application (ie. PF < .62) Any motor running at a power factor of .62 or greater will not benefit from significant cost savings, although there will be some. They will however benifit from soft start, soft stop and the host of other benifits the technology brings to bear.

In short, those with no direct knowledge of the application of the technology as embodied in the Somar powerboss Integra motor controller should reserve comments and instead do the research, rather than depending on comments from unknowing and uninformed parties that lack the knowledge, skill or experience to comment at all!

In short, savings ranging between 20% and 40% are the norm for this technology when applied to loads which have been screened for suitability...ie. duty cycle parameters, existing performance power factor (being the most important)

It should be noted that the single phase version, called Solo, will not work on anything but an L1 / Neutral setup...not on single phase three wire or two wire isolated supply configuration.

The technology is represented by Somar and Power Efficiency Corp. in the US is destined to become a standard for constant speed applications, and is and will continue to follow the same path as the VFD (variable speed drive) with the exception of the fact that VFD's had to overcome the resistance to putting any type of controller on a motor other than a contactor!

Meanwhile, there is a quiet revolution underway to substantially reduce kW consumption for constant speed applications, and once the carbon credit system is in-place here in the US this fall, the carbon reduction which results from the kva and kvar reduction accomplished by the technology will further boost the acceptance of this greatly miss-understood and bashed technology.

Ryslip

you are such a scammer

DK, Yes the Integra is the latest version of Powerboss. there have been over 120 improvements since its previous name Motorboss. We have a significant amount of data you can look at, if you want to check it out our link is info@boschems.com We look forward to discussing how Bosch can benefit your company in savings.

If anyone would like to sell there Powerboss Integra stock please contact us at info@boschems.com.

More people with their products to sell spreading the same misinformation disguised as serious engineering information. This is just more self serving commercial advertising.

If there's any of you who want to sell their circutors,contact me at githuak@gmail.com

hello,

I am also in search of equivalent controllers to Power Boss .. These are basically DE(Differential Evolution controllers , which has an in built circutry by which the optimal flux level needed to "JUST RUN " the load is delivered to motor by the controller..

Truly speaking i am just searching the net currently only to source an alternative device from Taiwan/China, to have an economical system ...

If some body can refer a brand to me ... Please write to " energyconzerv@yahoo.in"

Regards,

R.Baskar

Certified Energy Auditor

India

It is not a VFD. In fact it is intended to work with constant speed motors. I believe it works by controlling the voltage, responding to the phase difference between voltage and current as an indication of the load. My understanding is that it produces worthwhile improvements only in very rare cases, difficult to determine in advance, and that the company concentrates on selling distributorships with little expectation of end-user sales. I have heard from well over 100 (ex-)distributors the overwhelming majority of whom have long since given up trying to sell the product, as have I.

Thank you very much for your prompt responce. i feel that we both can understand our problems regarding the powerboss integra of somar international. i will be keep in touch with. but if you dont mind can you give me your email id . bcoz i dont want to share some of experience on the blog. i hope our sharing regarding powerboss integra would be benificial for both of us.

thanks you

Waleed Aqdas

Dear Waleed Aqdas,

I used to be a somar distributor in the Middle East and would like to share my experience with you.

ban_dar@hotmail.com

I just can't understand why they keep distributor list confidential. i don't regret dealing with them but i have many people in my country who approached me to buy distributorship license from them and thanked me for sharing my experience.

Not surprisingly, Somar International has recently announced that it is under "administration". This pretty much means their assets are frozen and the banks are after them. Too bad it took over 10 years for their actions to catch up with them. I suspect that they will reappear under a new name and begin their "great business opportunity" all over again. The name of the company's they start will change but the moral code will and has stayed the same. In all cases that I am aware of, it is mostly just regurgitated old technology with a new skin. Shame.

They set up a new company some time ago, in 2006 I believe. It is called Enigin and its website includes a timeline going back to 1974! At one point it claimed to have received the Queen's award to industry but they removed that after I pointed this out to the powers that be.

Somar has gone into liquidation, and its assets have been acquired by the Mark Group, who I understand will continue trading as Somar. From what I can tell, the Mark Group deals mostly with retail customers for home insulation and the like, so I am not sure how the Somar business fits in with that.

Gee whizz, what a surprise! Scams like theirs can only survive on finding new "sheep" to fleece. Methinks the flock hath moved on. The sad thing is that the new company will likely market it as a "new and revolutionary scientific breakthrough" and reap in a bunch of new sheep from the residential market. It's sad to me that the people that companies like this victimize are often people for whom energy costs represent a large portion of their living expense and thus can ill afford to be fleeced, yet they do not know enough about power delivery and consumption to avoid it.

Dear all:

I have read all the comments of powerboss in this forum. It mostly sound Powerboss is so awful and not accordance to what has been advertised by Somar. In order to be fair, I would like to share our own experiences:

I am not an engineer and has been a Powerboss Distributor since 2008, and have put a small team of engineer to market powerboss since then. During this 5 year distributorship, I have sold more than 100 units of various sizes from 5,5KW to 26OKW.

Our customers are mostly a large corporation (a world wide company) who has their own engineer experts who are happy with powerboss. We hardly receive any complain from them. Of course there were several problem with the PCB of powerboss due to mostly if the temperature is too high (more than 40degrees). We returned this damaged PCB under warranty to Somar, and Somar did the repair or replace with a new one, and our customers were happy too, because we replace the product immediately.

For your information, we even sold many Powerboss thru 3 famous escalators brand to be used in one of their customers.

In regard to the energy saving, it is our experience that during the soft start, powerboss can have in the average of 50% saving or more. During the running periods, the saving is vary depending it application and loads, it can be at the average 22pct in the escalators, or 33pct at the press machines, on compressor because normally already efficient and continueos load, it can give us about 5% to 10%. But you know what......even with +/- 7% saving at compressors, the customers usually happy about because in therm $ value saving is bigger and can have a short term of payback period.

If you guys need any trial report or commissioning report to prove this, I would be happy to provide one.

Pieter etal, Please share with us and the forum a link to your website. Surely you would want some additional traffic to your site. I would trust that your website would reflect some of the testimonies (or installations) as you have mentioned. I will grant you the fact that you are not a proclaimed Engineer perhaps you are a Businessman but so far your details do not even make for good a business story. Example(s): Selling (about) 100 units over a 5 year period. That is roughly 2 units per month -not an AWESOME business model as boldly proclaimed by Somar. Especially when doing business with "large corporations". I would think that the numbers would be higher. 40 C is warm but is enough to shut down an industrial motor controller (and a machine, escalator or compressor) and to destroy a board? Go back and do your homework Somar there is work to be done. Is too much heat loss from your switching devices. Hmmm heat is energy too. Escalators? This could be true but finding 3 escalator manufacturers in one distributor territory is a statistical improbability. And that one (or 3) could be convinced to take on the liability that would come from installing third party the hardware on a people moving apparatus. Was this test an inditement of the truth seeing how they chose not to adopt the technology into their regular/mass production? 50% savings during start up? What do you think this is saving? It is a 50% reduction in torque but applied over time is the same amount of energy is it not? And this is for a very short period of time. Now try to convince your Accountant that there was a savings. Yes, soft starters are a good idea and they should be utilized but for good reasons other than your blanketed claim of 50%. Short payback period? Rarely. Ambiguities are way too plenty. They have no use on this technical forum. 50%, 33%, 22%, 10%, 7%, 5%. That is a broad range and imagine that it is ONLY when the motors are a light load? Your payback period could take 50, 30, 22, 10, 7, 5 years. Add the heat reduction benefit on the motor maybe less 4.75 years. Okay, now that the number soup has been cooked you did not mention one word about Somar going out-of-business. How does this fit in with your business model? With over 100 units in the field and Summer coming on you may be hitting the 40 C season again soon and there is Somar-no-more. Now who is going to be there to replace those PCB's? Much of the argument above is not so much about technology but of ethos and business practice of Somar and their Managing Directors. 10 - 12 years of signing up distributors based on lofty claims, bygone technology and outdated testimonials. The Directors past and present are dancing on the bones of many good people who believed in the Somar message and only left to the sidelines moments after the contract was signed.

Sorry, Where can I Buy PowerBoss?????

If you are interested . please confirm me the capacity you want, hopefully i can supply you...

regards

Hi Wagdas,

I am a Vietnamese distributor on energy saving product. Currently, I am looking for the Energy saving on Motor. Could you give me the average Unit price/kw?