Convincing of Facts

GA

Not only a GA, but a BA (best answer)!

Sounds like a GA to me.

I've found over the years that, "You don't look too intelligent, but I'll try to explain this to you anyway", usually doesn't get you too far.

Whudda ya mean?

Thanks...GA from me too.

I am always willing to admit when I make mistakes. I am up against a team of engineers which did something years ago and there has problems with ever since.

It appears that something very simple has been overlooked until very recently. I am having a hard time trying to figure out why people I have always looked to for advice and generally admired for their skillset seem to have made an elementary mistake.

I know that nobody is infallible, but it just doesn't feel right.

Even a great team will not perform well if there is not a structured system for them to work under.

Engineering is a systematic approach to problem solving. Eliminate the structure to the process and it devolves into chaos.

The degree of structure that you put into the engineering process is a function of how much risk tolerance you have. Failure results in lost revenue, missed deadlines, and in some cases injury or death.

Simple things like you mentioned should be captured in the review process of the engineering design cycle early in the product life cycle. My guess is that there is not a formal review process in place (at least not when the product was originally designed).

A simple and effective review (that I like) can be done by gathering the work product to be reviewed and writing a short description of the scope of the review (what pages, sections, etc., and what types findings to focus on). You can even personalize it by giving some review team members specific instructions. Some engineers have areas of expertise that you may want to leverage.

Then pick members of the team that will be part of the peer review. Set a due date for the results of the review. Email them the documents to be reviewed and let the review team review everything individually.

Once the team has reviewed the work they should send you an email with their findings or mark up the originals.

Once all the members have chimed in, the aggregate of findings should be published for all members of the review team and schedule a face-to-face meeting (if needed) to discuss those findings.

At this point of the process the focus is on resolving all of the findings. Either the findings get fixed or they should be explained away to the satisfaction of the team.

The meeting should go over every finding one at a time and resolved by the author of the reviewed work. For small findings we may skip the formal meeting and just show the resolution to each finding to the members that brought them up. Once everyone is satisfied that everything is resolved you are done.

You can make the review process as informal or as formal as you need. The advantage of this process is that you don't waste hours of people's time sitting in a meeting while the author drones on and on reading out loud what everyone should have read before the meeting but didn't.

The main thing is that my process forces the review team to actually review the work product and not just sit in a room daydreaming. It also allows the review team to do their work at a time that fits their schedule (within reason).

The process is less painful and much more effective. Any face-to-face meeting can focus on group brainstorming to resolve an issue (as a team), which is much more fun for the team because it is engaging.

Lastly, you can summarize the review and its outcome in a short letter and then send that to your supervisor and project manager. They will love it because it demonstrates the team is working together to reduce errors and stay on schedule. Managers hate when a schedule gets blown because some unknown issue surfaces just when the product gets released. People get fired that way.

Those are some good points. Unfortunately for me, I am on the maintenance side of this issue. I wasn't in the planning or lab/field testing stages. I am being met with indifference and attitudes from people that I am out for accolades and rewards for solving a problem that nobody else really cares about.

I am not even sure there is a "real" problem yet, but it is not functioning within my specifications which is backed up by previous research and specifications from another manufacturer _{(and the IEEE, though I am met with blank stares when I mention that!).}

you've covered alot of project management tools, especially in risk and risk mitigation.

GA. I too have the weakness of forming words to explain and many of my good ideas failed even before launching.

I agree with all you've said, but when do you get the tazer out?

When, two weeks later, the same error is made, and you go through it all again, and finish with;

'Do you remember we had this same problem two weeks ago?'

and the answer is: 'Why are you bringing that up again ?'

CNC

ga, unfortunately I need some work in this area. it went as far as I was accused if being unsocialable by a fellow engineer, because I didn't greed him with a good morning....... After 10:00 am. I told them after 9:00 I stop and you'll have to wait till 12:00 for a good afternoon or come to work before 9:00 am. He was discharge before either happened.

it did wonders for my attitude, as well the attitude of others. And it was immediately notice.

I would say, don't explain it at all......................show them. They will figure out that they're wrong.

I had a engineer that worked for me, who's project he had done was not performing. When I discussed this with him, which was too late, about the performance short falls. his reply was, "That was a matter of opinion." I then asked what his opinion was and to please explain it.

As I dug farther, all the projects he was working on, did not match his status reports, where there would be issues.

After repeated mitigations, I left him go and promoted a younger designer. problem cleared up, at a cost to me. And the designer was given a bonus for doing so.

Hey Pete,

A tazer or stun gun have been very useful in the past for me..............._{kidding of course.}

I have found that when working with people that don't understand or will not accept an overall concept or fact, if I break it down into "bite size pieces", it is more easily digested by fellow team members.

Producing industry or manufacturer supported documentation is also a great resource.

Valid documentation has worked well for me.

Don't try if they don't get it when presented with the facts some of them never will. Present them with the facts and ask how do you propose we solve this problem. Listen to their input and guide it to the proper conclusion. Maybe some will learn.

Redfred is right, you have to be direct about it to make sure it's understood.

One thing that works well for me, though, when handling errors by employees, is to word the correction so that the emphasis is not upon the person who made the error: using "we" as the subject instead of "you didn't..." or "you should.." or "Don't"

"We'd better do it this way, because otherwise...." "We have to do thus, so that...." This puts the emphasis on a team effort towards the goal, instead of sounding like a reprimand.

GA. I agree.

Lately, cuba, I'm thinking uv skrapping the idea that people can be convinced uv anything.

Its like a fundamental function uv the human brain iz to latch onto the first junk that fallz in and build on it, rejecting anything contradictory that showz up later. Cement Head Syndrome.

Therez a line in Men In Black - K sez "Human thought iz considered a dizeaze in sum uv the better galaxyz!"

So, your only solution iz to say "Look, you idiots. Herez undeniable proof uv a stupid mistake. We are going to do it my way, or I'm going to show this to the boss."

Yes, they will be mortal enemyz after that, but who needz more idiot frendz anyway?

Umm...what the?

Did that come from whatever comes after Generation Y?

It is a difficult one.. but the only way is to explain without bias and without a condescending tone or attitude.

It is always to to remember it could be you, and how would you like to be told that you'd made a mistake, without making you feel like a moron.

If you have a good team and promote team work AND you make it known that you are a team player, then you become friends with your team, even if its work friends, so when you or someone drops the ball, someone else will pick it up, and explain how it was dropped, without the embarrassment.

It is always good to remember, that everyone makes mistakes, no-one knows everything and the only thing that changes daily is the level of crap you are in.

Thats the way thingz should work.

Be polite, rely on facts and lojik. Then your coworkers, being aware that the company livez or diez by the quality uv the teamz work, will acknowledge the truth uv wut youre telling them and thank you for catching the error before it reached the customerz.

Unfortunately, there are too many incompetents around, so its likely that any company uv more than a handful uv workerz will hav a few.

You have to feel sorry for sumbudy who ended up in the rong job. Circumstansez and the faults uv our society make it very common for people to not find their real talent, so here they are, playing engineer. They can't afford to change careerz, sweating with fear every day that they will screw up and reveal their incompetence. And wen it happenz, their reaction iz to cover their ass. Plan A: Deny that there iz a problem, attack the facts and lojik being prezented and question the credentialz uv the prezenter. There iz no plan B.

Redfred has a good description on how to handle breaking the bad news.

However, the way we deal with it in the avionics industry is as follows:

1. Requirements. The system and low level requirements need to be comprehensive, complete, and testable. You need to have a clear understanding of what to build and how to build. Each requirement should be unique and ideally tagged so that you can trace them through the design and test each requirement.

2. Peer Reviews. Best weapon to catch mistakes early. Peer reviews put many minds (and eyes) on the problem. Review scope should be thorough so break the system into many reviews as opposed to a big one. People burn out after the first hour or so. More short reviews are better than one big one.

3. Did I mention reviews? Everything should be reviewed in a formal way. That starts with the high level requirements and goes right down to the testing plan.

4. Testing. Did you build what you said you were going to build? Testing is the last filter to make sure the work product is right.

Points 2 and 3 should be the ultimate filter to catching design mistakes. However, point #1 is the law of the land. If the details as to how to execute the design are clearly and comprehensively documented, then you will find a significant drop in the "Doh!" moments.

You can't eliminate all mistakes, but the idea is to catch them as early as possible so that their impact is the least.

In the end, when you discover a design mistake it all comes down to it not meeting specifications or requirements. Then it is pretty obvious it is an error when pointed out and not much diplomacy is required.

Design philosophies get hammered out in the review phases.

That is an extremely gracious way to express that thought.

Or perhaps: That iz n xtremly grashus way to xpres that thot.

^{Ow, typing that out actually gave me a headache!}

GA

GA.

My point iz that Cuba Pete iz not an idiot, so writing 2 long posts about how thingz shoud work iz an indirect insult.

Not everybody haz the pleasure uv working in companyz that hav a functional engineering infrastucture. Since he'z obviously having trouble getting people to do the rite thing, I assume its bekuz hez in sum less than idyllic situation.

Z man, why are you spelling words in the way that tweens and "emo" children text to each other?

Funny how The Nooalf Revolution project happenz to be a good example uv Cuba'z dilema.

Got all the facts and lojik to back me up and yet.....

the Original thread says..

....how do you make them realize that they did something incorrectly (wrong, half-assed)?

How do I explain in a politically correct manner that what they are doing/did is ba-ba for the baby?

Having read your replies.. while amusing in the first instance, have now become juvenile and NOT amusing, and you obviously do not have parental supervision.

In keeping with the thread, there is no way to put it in a way that will get you on side, get you to conform to the norm, and stop this childish rhetoric, other than to tell you in simple words, you are an idiot.... Grow up!

Usually its wen you start to realize sumwun may be correct that the amuzement starts to fade, brich.

Directly to the original topic:

The biggest factor by far in being able to talk to sumwun about their mistakes iz your own natural salez talent. A great salezman can persuade sumwun, at least temporarily, uv almost anything.

I think its a fundamental property uv our personalityz; its in our DNA. If you dont have the salez gene, you simply cant do it.

Guyz like me can't sell icewater to eskimoz in the Sahara! I hav the chiral version uv the salez gene, so I'm an antisalesman!!!

So, considering the possibility that naturally talented engineerz tend to lack the salez gene, my idea for you, cuba, iz to get wun uv the company salesmen to break the bad newz to the perpetratorz uv mistakes.

Have you not come to realize, yet that you are the only one on this forum, indeed on the face of the planet, who thinks your gibberish is cute?

No intelligent human being would ever be caught dead spelling words the way you do.

Only an immature egomaniac would try to draw attention to themselves by purposefully misspelling words.

It isn't cute.

It is clever.

It isn't intelligent.

It isn't easier.

You won't find any converts here. We still use english, not gibberish.

Why don't you grow up!

I'm glad you think its clever! But the rest sounz like a rant, lyn. Are you angry or just hopped up on caffeen?

Let me try to respond in a calm and frendly manner, politely pointing out your errorz:

lyn rote:

"Have you not come to realize, yet that you are the only one on this forum, indeed on the face of the planet, who thinks your gibberish is cute?"

Incorrect for several reeznz.

1. Tornado rote: "It wud be xe end uv speling bez, xo." eksulent slakrz nqalf! Even better, he haz sumhow included the correct symbol for 'th', so its like enhanced slakrz nqalf! (yes, spelling beez go extinct)

2. I dont think its cute. This iz serious bizness.

3. Regular english iz the gibberish that needz to be eliminated.

So, now that I've been polite and factual, you will uv course change your mind and get on board with my little engineering project.

I have to admit, watching Lyn go ape over your 'novel spelling/kiddie speak/SMS mess' has been fun.

I am however a little confused as to what your "little engineering project" is.

It seems I might have missed, or failed to comprehend, something possibly mentioned in your posts.

This might actually be a 'penalty' inherent in your chosen means of communication.

Just mentioning that - as I'm usually fairly good at understanding 'novel' and ESL versions of English.

"watching Lyn go ape"

several organizationz and many notable figures hav pushed for spelling reform over the last 3 centuryz - many books, countless scholarly appealz to reazon, hundredz uv comprimize regularization schemez - with virtually zero effect

From Albert Einstein:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

So stop it already!

Yeah, I was going to say exactly the same thing.

Actually, I think someone else here put it best:

Never argue with idiots.

First, they drag you down to their level. Then they beat you up with experience.

Ok, your "lojik" lost me about here;

"It currently costs us over 300 billion dollars a year in excess educational costs and daily usage inefficiencies"

No citation? = 'we made this up'

"How much will it be when 10 billion people are using it?"

"Lojik" does not follow - could well be zero, as it is substantially amongst the currently Standard English literate ^{_{(which, admittedly, only includes a small % of Americans, & declining due to their spell checkers)}}.

"You could argue that it won't matter because there won't be any competition, but what if we have visitors?"

A. If they are smart enough to get here, chances are they're language skills will exceed those of 5 year old human.

B. What makes you think your version is, or will be, any more comprehensible than 'International English'.

C. What you seem to have is spelling that phonetically models a local NY dialect. One particularly 'lazy' and lacking in vocabulary.

On listening, I'm quite curious as to how you would distinguish between 'witch' and 'wick'?

This blurring would seem to raise the necessity for 'context qualifiers', like; 'as in broomstick', or 'as in candle', every time "wic" is used.

That said; How would you address the world standard scientific and technical word construction methodology that directly describes the modules present in a compound?

I think having a look at the Chinese 'alphabet' may be useful in gauging how painfully cumbersome - yet severely limited - this 'Noolarf' really is - ^{_{(spelling intended).}}

But - yes an interesting read - so thanks, I have learned 'sumtin'*

_{(*not to be confused with a random canister, or element, or addition of same)}

See, everybody? This iz how you do it. Reasearch then argue!

34point5 asks sum serious questionz and voicez an informed opinion.

"It currently costs us over 300 billion dollars a year in excess educational costs and daily usage inefficiencies"

On paje 4 I give an explanation uv how I arrived at the 300 billion number. Not having any training in accounting, I make no claim to precision. Its just a general ball park estimate. I wrote it several yirz ago and wut I'v learned since then woud only push my gess upward.

"B. What makes you think your version is, or will be, any more comprehensible than 'International English'."

There iz no international English yet. The 1st paragraph uv that article actually mentionz that the spelling coud hinder english frum becoming the world'z language.

"C. What you seem to have is spelling that phonetically models a local NY dialect. One particularly 'lazy' and lacking in vocabulary."

Sorry. Chicago. And not the south side either.

"On listening, I'm quite curious as to how you would distinguish between 'witch' and 'wick'?"

WIC (witch, which) and WIK (wick). I don't see why you woud think therez a problem there.

"That said; How would you address the world standard scientific and technical word construction methodology that directly describes the modules present in a compound?"

Assuming the spoken wordz can be differentiated, the Nooalf spelling will be equally clear.

"I think having a look at the Chinese 'alphabet' may be useful in gauging how painfully cumbersome - yet severely limited - this 'Noolarf' really is"

The opposit. Nooalf haz a dimension uv versitility that simply iznt possible with regular English - the ability to spell dialects and accents. In fact, a writer coud create entirely new dialects, accents or complete languages and be completely confident that hiz readerz will know how they sound.

Just you wait, 'enry 'higgins; just you wait...!

--Eliza Doolittle

Your Mooalfalfa does not (as yet, anyway) support all language sounds around the world. After you add 20-30 letters (which will necessitate weird keyboard combinations, diacritical marks, or unavailable characters), you might get there; but will confuse people even worse.

You cud chew your cud on that for a while.

Shouldn't that "I make no claim to precision" be prezizion?

AKA; "before Jews"?

My apologies: I shuld have gustd de "Windy City"

"the lead groom lead the lead horse, by it's lead lead, to the lead position"

It can get longer, but try that much in "Noolarf", then come back to me on "I don't see why you woud think therez a problem there"

"In fact, a writer coud create entirely new dialects, accents or complete languages"

And yet you don't quite comprehend the same root problem in International English is they don't understand other dialects or usage?

Face facts; the rest of the English speaking world will not be dragged down to pronouncing in text or like some 4th grade gang banger.

And this is what you are advocating

PRESIjN.

"the lead groom lead the lead horse, by it's lead lead, to the lead position"

XU LED GRQM LeD XU LED HORS, Bi ITS LeD LED, TQ XU LED PUZIsN.

YQ KaN DQ BeTR XeN XaT. SPeND U FYQ MOR MINITS PeRQZING XU CoRT.

Get lost, dolt. I'm tired of reading all of your Goddamned capital letters.

Urban Dictionary: dolt

Since your post will get moderated, I'll translate.

I've included a definition of the word that may not be familiar to (insert appropriate term for the juvy here).

I think the rest is universally understandable, although completely lost on the recipient.

It goes something like, "get a life, find another way to amuse yourself and leave us alone."

I hope I have not lost anything in the translation.

I also hope no one else will be baited by this troll.

This thread is dead.

Why is it "XU" - not 'De' light emitting diode?

How do U distinguish horse and whore?

Is that "Bi" referring to the bismuth % in the lead, or a Chinese jade disc, or ... twice?

And is that "XU" a surname or a university in Cincinnati?

"PUZIsN" <best guess <other guess

Aside from that it, it reads as well as 'some drongo tweeting'

So yes, keep at it - in no time the LCDS (mid page) will apply sufficiently for those fluent, to be considered the intelligentsia nouveau

I've watched every episode of Star Trek, Klingon is much easier. Ka Plo!

Behold the awsum power uv Hollywood and a dedicated fan base: http://www.kli.org/

Are you an actual Klingon speaker, brich?

Every language is a whore.

You are proclaiming a new one.

Is there a special offer lurking somewhere?

Elegance and subtleness, not vulgar presentation is what the lovers of language are on about You are just a nuance that deserves no credit but who should be put in the right spot so that you can get the feel for language. Any bloody language! or why do you think that short snippets of such can make a (^{Fill in country of origin}) smile?

Another thing, if we were talking about music and the mastering of notes, I would not play with you or try to explain why I dislike jibbery in music. It's just not elegant and nature is elegant not obtrusive and recalcitrant.

Hope all goes well

Sorry OP

Exactly.... spelling nowithstanding, the spoken word is English, so Zman you are not a creator of a NEW language, only someone that proves the point.

GA Pete!

I'm glad you are seeing the lite, brich. English iz a great language with a feeble orthography.

I'm in much the same pozition on this that you are in, cuba; I'm rite, but nobody wants to admit therez a problem. Like Gartth sed, the alkaholic syndrome.

(good call, Garthh!)

thought you would... and you have ..missed the point!

cuba pete wrote:

"BTW, thanks for hijacking my thread."

Sorry! But I didn't really start it, & it ended up illustrating your point anyway. I have ALL the lojik, but the oppozing mistake makerz can't get past their emotional attachment to their pozition.

As one of the 'guyz', I see no point in your mission.

I visited your Web site, and had to stop at the third page after reading Regular English spelling is bad software!

It's evident that you firmly believe that, since the first three pages were replete with poor grammar and misspellings.

Perhaps you should master those basics before seeking to alter the language.

Our fuzzy headed friend reminds me of a line from Forrest Gump.

The line of which I'm thinking has nothing to do with chocolates. The second and third words are "is" and "as".

_{Why am I back here? I don't know. Maybe it's like whacking yourself in the head with a hammer. It feels so good when you quit. Perhaps I'm hoping that he will give up this demented folly and do something productive with his life. Hope, you know, it springs eternal.}

no chance of you writing or saying anything to convince Z to end his mission

he's been at it on this site since 06

I think you're back here because, deep down, lyn, you know I'm right. Like the meth addict who regularly blunders into the hands of the police, your subconscious desire to get help subverts your conscious effort to avoid short term discomfort.

It's a hard road. But with some serious grit, an eye to a brighter future, and faith in your own power of self determination, I am confident that I can help you.

ky. LOL! Thanks, I got a real laugh from that.

I'm waiting for the avalanche of criticism for pheonix911's post #101.

I come back occasionally just to see if you have come to your senses, or hopefully, just gone away.

So far, you have not.

That was pretty low, even for you.

Whats wrong with my grammar, sue? I have no beef with English grammar and take pride in my mastery of it. And I at least tried to use correct regular English on the site until the Battle Zone section begins!

(I have recieved a harsh spanking from the admin, so I have to use regular antique spelling for now)

Nice restatement of "This might actually be a 'penalty' inherent in your chosen means of communication."

Doncha just luv dis ovurwoikd Brouklyneez?

Excuuuuse me?

Harrumph!

As a Brooklyn native, that would be my woid exactly.

TH15 M3554G3 5HOW5 YOU TH3 GR34T C4P4C1TY OF OUR 8R41N! 5UR3LY 4T TH3 83G1NN1NG 1T´5 NOT 345Y TO R34D, 8UT M34NWH1L3 PRO848LY YOU DO QU13T W3LL 1N R34D1NG TH15, W1THOUT 4 81G 3FFORT. YOUR 8R41N DO35 TH15 83C4U53 OF H15 HUG3 L34RN1NG 5K1LL5. 1MPR3551V3, OR? 1F YOU W4NT TO 1N5P1R3 OTH3R5,YOU 4R3 FR33 TO COP13 TH15.

It helps when a brain is flexible, but dumb?

Get real and play for keeps not live on borrowed idea(l)s.

Boring, boring, boring...............

Correction:

"It is clever." should have read, "it isn't clever"

As if there were ever any doubt!

The amusement starts to fade when the joke becomes old, and as for the realisation that someone is "RIGHT"... I have to understand that person.

I am a member of "Plain English", and therefore I (and as best as my spell checker can) spell words correctly and my grammar is "Queen's English".

You are the very embodiment of all that is wrong with the misuse of techno-speak, if one can call it that, your syntax is totally incorrect, your words are a bastardisation of the English language that we the British gave the colonies, and look what you've done to it.

I have tried to fathom how in the world you would be taken seriously.. and I find nothing that would convince me or endear me to you, your words or your comments, therefore I find you a joke Sir, and a poor one at that.

Possibly your alta-ego believes it is clever, smart, funny, amusing and believes that this is the way the spoken (or written) word should evolve.

Not in your lifetime or mine!

What's the saying? "put a thousand monkeys in a room with typewriters and one of them will write a novel"?

You've almost developed to the point of making intelligible sentences. Keep trying, I'll send you some bananas.

always thought it was they would write a novel between them...

As there is only one.. waiting for the other 999 to arrive, that could explain a lot!

Lyn.

The statement goez:

'An infinite number uv monkeyz with an infinite number uv typewriterz will eventually reproduce the complete works uv William Shakespear'.

Jeezzzzzzzzzz,

You can't even get that right. You obviously have problems with comprehension, too.

Grow up!

That's it for me. I make it a point not to play word games with children.

Another one bites the dust. ;-)

I just "don't suffer fools gladly".

It is Sunday, after all.