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Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/20/2012 8:39 PM

Let me start by saying that I have always admired Einstein. He has been one of my idols since I was a boy. However…

In Einstein's book Relativity in the chapter on the Lorentz Transformation, he gives us these formulas as the transforms:

x' = (x-vt)/sqr(1-(v2-c2))

y' = y

z' = z

t' = t-(v/c2)x .

sqr(1-(v2-c2))

He then says:

If in place of the law of transmission of light we had taken as our basis the tacit assumptions of the older mechanics as to the absolute character of times and lengths, then instead of the above we should have obtained the following equations:

x' = x-vt

y' = y

z' = z

t' = t

This system of equations is often termed the "Galilei transformation."

It is unlikely that Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) had anything to do with those. He had no need of any transforms because to him, and up to Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727) the whole universe had only one set of coordinates as far as they were concerned.

On page 115 (the derivation of the Lorentz transforms) he states "We require to find x' and t' when x and t are given." This makes it clear that we are solving for x' in the first formula of each set.

Now let's examine the first of the latter set of formulas with a thought experiment. We are standing beside the train track watching the train come from our left side as it moves to our right side. When the front of the train is right in front of us, we start our stop watch. After 10 seconds we signal to a friend who is running along side the train to mark the spot where the front of the train is then. We measure it off to be 100 feet from the spot we were standing. The variable x is the position of the train in the x axis. Where we were standing was beside the zero point. We call the velocity of the train when going from left to right positive, and consistently we call positions on the right to be positive, and left ones to be negative. The train has moved +100 feet in 10 seconds, so it's velocity is +10 feet per second.

Now let's use the formula to calculate it: x' = x-vt = 0-(10*10) = 0-100 = -100 feet. Suddenly, from the formula, the train has moved 200 feet to the left instantly, surpassing the speed of light! (humor). It is obvious that the correct formula is x' = x+vt, which would give the correct result. This is high school level physics. Is this Einstein's biggest mistake?

Einstein goes on to say on page 33:

"The Galilei transformation can be obtained from the Lorentz transformation by substituting an infinitely large value for the velocity of light c in the latter transformation."

Since the latter ones do not contain c, he must have meant the former ones. That's 2 mistakes on 1 page. I wonder how many others there are. Let's see if his statement is right otherwise. Substituting our values with infinity for c we get:

x' = (x-vt)/sqr(1-(v2-c2)) = (0-100)/sqr(1-(102-∞2))

Since infinity can't be squared (it's already infinite), the formula can't be solved precisely so let's use a high arbitrary number of 1 trillion + 100 for ∞2. We will ignore the 10^2 which is insignificant. Now we need to take the square root of -1 trillion. Negative numbers have no square roots, so we still can't solve it (but I bet one of you is going to do it). I can't wait to see your solution. Let us just say for arguments sake that the square root was -1 million. Now we divide -100 by -1 million and we get +.0001. Had we used +1 million for the denominator we would get -.0001. Neither answer is anywhere close to -100 as Einstein promised.

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#1

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/20/2012 8:50 PM

Do we know anybody on the train??

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#2
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/20/2012 9:00 PM

Einstein wasn't on it. He was late.

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#4
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/20/2012 9:57 PM

Yeah, he was always late, had a bad watch, it ran relatively slow...

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#3

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/20/2012 9:36 PM

Go over to the Amazon Discussions and hook up with one Mohamed F. El-Hewie, another great Einstein detractor. Be prepared to puke.

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#5

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/20/2012 11:12 PM

I see that my first formula for t' got messed up. I was tying to show the division as a horizontal line. It's not very relevant to this discussion, so I won't correct it. Let me also say that I believe in relativity, but there could be some errors in the math that could have some unknown consequences. There are a lot of unanswered questions to consider.

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#6
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/21/2012 2:18 PM

Very interesting link.

Surprising how much we don't know. And those are just the questions we know to ask.

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#7

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/21/2012 2:35 PM

Without reading your post in detail, I think the formula towards the end

x' = (x-vt)/sqr(1-(v2-c2)) = (0-100)/sqr(1-(102-∞2)) is wrong. It should be

x' = (x-vt)/sqr(1-(v2/c2)) = (0-100)/sqr(1-(102/∞2)). Then as 102/∞2 = 0, x' = -100.

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#8
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/21/2012 8:23 PM

You are correct my friend. I give you a GA for pointing it out. I transcribed the formula wrong from the book. Even I make mistakes. Shall I blame it on old age or the stroke I had 12 years ago?

So the Lorentz formula gets the same answer as the simple formula (the incorrect answer). This proves that the error has infected the later math. Is it Lorentz's error or Einstein's? Either way, Einstein failed to see it. I will attempt to wade through the derivation of the transforms in the appendix when I get time. Stay tuned.

Note 1: If x' and x were confused in the simple formula, the formula would have been right. When you transpose the formula, the (-) on one side becomes a (+) on the other.

Note 2: I have a thick college physics book written by 4 university professors. It has the same 2 formulas (corrected ones) for x' and t' that I show in the OP with the primed variables on the left side of the equation. The rest of the formulas in the chapter have the primed variables on the right side of the equations. They never define what they are as Einstein did in his appendix. No wonder there is so much confusion on this subject.

-S

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/22/2012 8:54 PM

In the derivation of the Lorentz transforms in the appendix, the simple equation x' = x - vt is not found. He says:

"A light signal, which is proceeding along the positive axis of x, is transmitted according to the equation… x - ct = 0… (1). Since the same light signal has to be transmitted relative to K' with the velocity c, the propagation relative to the system K' [on the x axis] will be represented by the analogous formula x' - ct' = 0…(2). Those space-time points (events) which satisfy (1) must also satisfy (2). Obviously this will be the case when the relation (x' - ct') = λ(x - ct)…(3) is fulfilled in general, where λ is a constant.

Obviously, but shortly afterward he loses me. He says:

"If we apply quite similar considerations to light rays which are being transmitted along the negative x-axis, we obtain the condition (x' - ct') = μ(x - ct) (4). By adding( or subtracting) equations (3) and (4), and introducing for convenience the constants a and b in place of the constants λ and μ, where a =( λ+ μ)/2 and b = ( λ- μ)/2, we obtain the equations x' = ax - bct, ct' = act - bx (5). We should thus have the solution of our problem,…

What problem? We are trying to derive transforms, and are just getting started. Here is my problem with this: The light doesn't start from our eye and go to the train and then come back. The sun is somewhere in the y and z axis' (at an angle). When we look out into space, 100% of the light is in the negative direction in the x axis. With logic errors like this, I see no point in looking for more math errors.

In short, I can not follow the derivations. I have none of my own, and don't expect to any time soon. I am not trying to sell anything as 'the other guy' is. I hope that my thread will cause some progress to be made in science. Thanks for 'listening'.

-S

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#9

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/22/2012 12:25 AM

I don't know about everyone else but I'm prepared to overlook some typo's from the guy.

After all he did manage to rewrite physics in a way that's survived for over 100 years.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/22/2012 3:00 PM

Sorry ffej I couldn't disagree more!

"After all he did manage to rewrite physics in a way that's survived for over 100 years." If only we had NOT taken that route, maybe science would not be in it's present state. Vast amounts of money would not have been wasted on pointless projects..

Why did his physics survive 100 years? Maybe a certain group wanted our understanding of the universe to remain stunted. How else can you explain so many counter-intuitive pillars to the Standard Model theory? To list but a few:

  1. speed of light limit
  2. over reliance on GRAVITY in space
  3. big bang
  4. black holes
  5. dark matter
  6. dark energy
  7. fusion-powered sun, etc

Einstein had his doubts about his work and frequently communicated with a maverick polymath (and fellow Jew) until his dying day. That man was Immanuel Velikovsky, whose catastrophic ideas lit up a non-standard path for science, which science threw in his face. We are luckily able to benefit from those who took up his challenges. Plasma Cosmology took the reins and from it the Electric Universe theory has been successfully predicting space discoveries for several years now.

Standard Guy is right to question our over-reliance on mathematicall models, particularly when they have very little, if any lab-testability. Contrast that with EU models which have been tested and shown to work at all scales, mm to light-year.

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#13
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/25/2012 3:08 PM

"...frequently communicated with a maverick polymath (and fellow Jew)..."

How is this relevant?

"Contrast that with EU models"

There have been many lively discussions on "Electric Universe" hypothesis at PhysicsForums.com, Bad Astronomy/Universe Today, and even the science forum on Randi.org. (I'm not a physicist, but I enjoy learning from the professionals that participate.)

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#14
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/25/2012 6:38 PM

Do you agree with this?:

'Standard Guy is right to question our over-reliance on mathematical models, particularly when they have very little, if any lab-testability. Contrast that with EU models which have been tested and shown to work at all scales, mm to light-year.'

What's the point of arguing about a + this or - this if the physics is wrong? Step back and say gravity does NOT explain the way the universe works, however tidy or untidy the math. I'm sure the engineering minds will prefer the simple, testable solution. Einstein does not seem to have considered that..? Great to have thought games but it's time to get real folks!

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/25/2012 9:15 PM

I'm not a physicist, astronomer, or mathematician, so any opinion I could offer would be based entirely on supposition. I mentioned the other forums simply because I find the debates interesting and educational.

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#17
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/26/2012 11:15 AM

Hi Cigarshaped,

It's strange that I have never heard of EU, considering my strong interest in this subject for many years. Is it a takeoff of the theories of Hannes Alfvẻn? I am very sceptical that it has been tested as you claim.

What's the point of arguing about a + this or - this if the physics is wrong?

The idea about the formulas is to predict what will happen in space or in sub-atomic experiments. It makes little difference which theory is right if you can predict what will happen. Sometimes 2 theories can both be right if they are looking at things from 2 different perspectives. That's not likely the case here, though.

-S

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#20
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/28/2012 8:04 PM

Exactly right SG, Hannes Alfven was one of many, including Kristian Birkeland, who experimented and theorised on an electrical solution.

Although HA won the Nobel Prize for his work in magnetohydrodynamics, he withdrew that as a mistake, unfortunately some scientists still use his faulty notions.

He also emphasized that:

In order to understand the phenomena in a certain plasma region, it is necessary to map not only the magnetic but also the electric field and the electric currents. Space is filled with a network of currents which transfer energy and momentum over large or very large distances. The currents often pinch to filamentary or surface currents. The latter are likely to give space, as also interstellar and intergalactic space, a cellular structure.

With all their maths, astronomers have failed to predict many phenomena in space. Their retro-fit explanations are a clear sign that the maths is needing constant tweeking to match the real situation. Whereas intuitive researchers are on record for predicting Tempel 1's spectacular response to Deep Impact - both the double, intense flash and rocky surface. That's just two of many such predictions. http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=nq9zna2m

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#16
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Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/26/2012 10:51 AM

Hi pantaz,

How is is possible that EU has been discussed on PhysicsForums? They have a rule that nothing can be discusses that is not in line with currently accepted theory. That is why I seldom participate. They got real nasty with me when I posted a reference to Jorrie's blog. I will take a look at Randi.org. Thanks for the link.

-S

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#12

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/24/2012 7:15 PM

I recommend (in part) the book Symmetry and the Beautiful Universe by the Nobel laureate Leon M. Lederman, PhD, and a leading theoretical physicist from Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, Christopher T. Hill, PhD. It's an easy read. If you want the opinion of main-stream science, you'll get it here. It says:

Emma Noether is regarded as the greatest of all woman mathematicians, and one of the greatest mathematicians… in history.

Her theorem:

For every continuous symmetry of the laws of physics, there must exist a conservation law. For every conservation law, there must exist a continuous symmetry.

The book claims that her theorem is proved. Einstein praised her thusly:

In the realm of algebra…[Noether] discovered methods which have proved of enormous importance…toward logical beauty, spiritual formulas… for deeper penetration into the laws of nature.

When a train coming toward you blows its whistle, the pitch changes from the train's motion relative to you. That's the Doppler effect, as you know. The pitch increases when the train is coming toward you, and decreases as the train recedes by the same amount. That's symmetry. In contrast, length and time from relativity (as taught) is the same both directions. There is no symmetry there, and to me, no logic.

According to main-stream science, length and time don't physically change from relativity, it's only apparent from your point of view (a measurement error from your location in space-time). If the measurement error comes from the fact that light has to travel farther from the far end of a moving rod than from the closer end, then when the rod is moving toward you, the far end is relatively closer when the light reaches your eye, so the rod appears shorter. The reverse is true when the rod is moving away (it would appear to be longer because the far end is relatively farther away when the light reaches your eye). This is a symmetrical situation.

I would then conclude that there are two different formulas for objects traveling towards or away. That would make Einstein's theory unfinished (but not wrong if applied correctly). Notice that in the first formula, if the (-) is changed to a (+), x' = +100 (the right answer for my thought experiment).

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#18

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/26/2012 10:08 PM

I just read the short chapter (7) on relativity in the aforementioned book. On page 152:

...Galileo said that the answer is a Galilean boost:[note 7]

L = L' - vt, T' = T

This is called Galilean transformation.

Notice that if we solve for the primed variable L' we get L' = L + vt. But note 7 for chapter 7 has:

...the Galilean boosts are x' = x - vt, y' = y, z' = z, t' = t

as was in Einstein's book. Notice the polarity swap. Are all physicists this sloppy? Did someone correct Einstein's formula? If so, why did she not take credit for it?

The implications of a sign error are huge. If time dilates going away and compresses coming toward, then in the twin paradox, the returning twin returns at exactly the same age as the one who stayed home. No possible paradox here.

BTW, this book has this to say about the twin paradox:

...this could not be resolved without considering the effect of acceleration.

So, it seems, not all main-stream scientists are on the same wavelength.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/26/2012 10:34 PM

Maybe it was just a typo that was subsequently corrected.

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Einstein's Biggest Mistake?

02/29/2012 5:46 PM

If only all the typos and wrong directions had been spotted and corrected, before it all became a 'religion', no longer objective science.

"Einstein bequeathed us a disconnected, incoherent universe that simply cannot function or give rise to life." Wal Thornhill

"Everyone who takes relativity seriously
…believes in the reality of at least one
direction in which one cannot point."
Don L. Hotson

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