Time is based on a divisional increment of sixty.

60hz or 1 cps (cycle per second)

The most accurate second is measured by a fountain clock with charged particles

in a field.

This is at the atomic level.

fountain clocks in your neigborhood may vary.

In meditation . .There is NOTHING CONFINED.

Your soul is INFINITE or HAS NO BOUNDARY.

and you were born infinite and GOD like.

There is the model.

Convenience is an estimate.

The model at the sub- atomic or smallest level

will probably not vary too greatly from it's larger sibling "creation" or at the edge of

an "island universe" of 650 million to 80 billion stars. Yet, just 'up the street"

are networks of 850 to 1200 trillion stars.

But remote in comparison to the 'ripping edge" of our milky way "group"

(down town) where there are "lattices" of the same grouping (a "ractals fractal)

that repeats 7 ur times and twelve great times, exponentially @ seven known dimensional corridors.

in the shape of ramdom natural selection known as nebulas.

outward in all directions.

at the same time time.

Which is "no time" . .CORRECT?

The expansion of a fractal is the same math equation as universalattice expansion

theorum. ( I had to invent a word for that thoufght)

or UET

I recommend further open minded reding at:

WWW.FIGU.ORG.

Happy reading.

Saalome' . .

they go more into the mathmatical and structural FACTS of our universe

and things like "anti-universe lightspeed travel"

Warning:

You must have "neigborhood" non-anti light-speed travel nailed

before attempting this little known trick!

But I have found time to be "discontinuous" if you will,

(changeable) using different Meditational Techniques alongside the "quantum-raft"

thory which works best for me.

which are completely dreamlike. and the FRAME (f you will) ITSELF

IS EXPANDING.

Which is very real.

The beamships of the Plearian variety are best suited to this,

with the "vegan" group a close second. Second (two) next to beginning (one)

beside two voids with nothing going on yet. .(zero-zero) = NT (NO TIME)

There's that word again. .so it must be 210012210012210 Repeat to inf. X nt.

Are we bieng "shorted" or left in the lowest area of creation compression while the 0

expansion front is where "the other side" of the blackholes (all of them)

was to begin with? T H E W H O L E T I M E ?

And the clock in there has been stuck at 3 for ur ur great times in leave of another

expansion ripple. (equals three known dimensions here and it had to begin in a zero.)

The really cool time teqniques must be happening for THEM.

Who is US.

in NO TIME, with a working model.

in divisions of cycles per second that = 60.

Here. NOW. Sixty being implied.

The eternal present compressed.

at the lowest or BIGGEST level.

(hopefully downloadable that will function un-patched.) Tomorrow = NO TIME.

At a website near (or nowhere) ((Virtual)) you.

OK here we all are in N O T I M E and Dan is planning another 1200 mile

motorcycle loop with help from MAPS sometime in near HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

There. Then.

By the way, the best way to not have to go to work. .

is just don't go there. Till the trip is at the rendevous point.

Then we can have a beer and open the rest for random live discussions

about . .subterranean green housing.

That I happen to be an expert on.

Basing the main idea on a cross-section of the ambient "knowledge" present in

every GOD like person on the premises at THEN.

(un-compressed , real time, eternal present creation, with beer, thank heaven.)

Peace to ALL.

Robert C.

CEO Quantum E3 ISGBT

intelligent subterranean green building technology, looking at "project blackbox" as a potential JV. (Sun Microsystems)

And boy, ARE those puppies NEAT! Keyword: "project blackbox"

Was your message computer generated?

It reads like one of those old compter generated conversation programs from way back when we were all playing with basic.

If not, I sugest brevity is a virtue, as I don't s'pose anyone will actually read your entire message fully.

Is it the Hi Desert atmosphere, the water, or does it run in your family?

WHAT in the world was that all about?

John

If you really need me to explain what I am writing about:-

The first line of your original entry is wrong. Time has no fundamental relationship to the number 60.

The last line makes little sense.

The intervening lines approach gibberish.

Which is why I wondered if they were computer generated ...

Dosn't anyone else remember 'Elisa' The computer generated conversation engine writen about most humourously back in the 60s in Scientific American?

That's correct, Del. The origin of "60" for time measure, angles, circumference of a circle, etc goes back several thousand years to the Mesopotamians et al. The Incas had a better understanding of the length of the year than modern times until fairly recently. I believe that w/o and background "rotation" for reference, as technology rose, people would find ways to measure time absolutely for physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. It's difficult to conceive of a populated planet existing with no star to orbit, with no stars in the sky for rotational references. We likely need a new thread re: Is time continuous? If discontinuous, is all matter re-created every new instant of time? It's hard to imagine material things existing continuously if time is not continuous.

I may be wrong, but I think that was an effort at free verse.

Poetry has never held much interest for me. Is that true for most engineers? I consider it a deficiency.

Getting back to time and rotation. I think that time and movement are intrinsically related, but not not just rotation.

Time is something that we all experience, but which is very difficult to even define. Most definitions of time use words that if you look up their definitions rely on the word "time" to describe, circular logic.

Good one Howetwo,

I just made this point to Alhuey23. It is a most difficult concept to define without doing it in terms of itself.

Thanks,

John

OK, It's plain ta see by the answeres yas got so's far, I guess I'll have ta brakes this down fer ya. First of all, you is absolutely right! Without rotatin' there would be no time. If you stand in one place and spin around, two things'll happen. First, you'll get real dizzy. Second, you'll age real fast. So don't go trying this unless yer a teenager. Otherwise, you'll miss the best years of yer life.

Second, why do you think you got old enough ta drive? It was because of the time that passed while you were beein' driven to school dances by yer parents. The rotation of the car's wheels made ya age. That's how it works, but Big Oil, G. W. Bush, and GM ain't gunna let ya in on that secret.

Finally, this is very important! What ever ya do, NEVER, EVER stop fer a red-light. If the wheels stop turnin, yous'll go out of existence!

I've only read to here so I'm sure I've repeated somebody else!

Have you ever marveled at a complex machine with lots of cogs, lever and trips ran on clockwork? That to me is Poetry!

Godd morning Mr. Brain,

"trips ran on clockwork"

Spock said to Kirk

But levers n' cogs without math

have no place in poetry's path

Cheers,

John

I think it meant: Believe in God, and peace be with you, hallelujah.

But then again, I'm not an expert.

"Then we can have a beer and open the rest for random live discussionsabout . .subterranean green housing. That I happen to be an expert on.Basing the main idea on a cross-section of the ambient "knowledge" present in every GOD like person on the premises at THEN. Robert C.CEO Quantum E3 ISGBT"

"The world will little note not long remember what has been said here today!" with apologies to A. L.

Hi Stan,

All I can say is amen to that!

John

Where can I get some of what you're taking?

Hmm,

The rotation of the planet and the orbit around the Sun merely provides a convenient way to measure the passage of time.

Just because something isn't being measure doesn't mean it ceases to exist. Although there are plenty of bean counters who will argue with that!

Measurement, analysis and writing things on paper is just a tool to explain or predict it doesn't actual effect the reality.

My old Boss would complain that my timescales were too long...I'd ...

cross out the 'weeks' on the x axis and write 'days' and ask if that was better! Adding, 'but it's still going to take the same time!'

I was about to post something silly, like:

''The more you turn, the longer it will take you to reach your goal''

Nature's Quantic Fortune Kookie.

But you say Time may not exist!

Seriously!

The delirious dilemma is knowing if the the time turning round is actually a waste of itself.

Antimatter is time waste, pollution.

Once, the universe was so full of it, it blew off.

Wasted by our mere existence;

Or not?

I did NOT say time 'Time may not exist'

Suggest you re-read my message s l o w l y.

Right, t'was late and was being silly.

Back to work!

One bean, Two beans...

If we were living inside a hollow sphere where there was no night, we'd still have use for time keeping. If you need to meet with someone, you wouldn't say "let's meet" without giving a time frame for the both of you.

School and office work would still be so many hours long; cooking meals will still take whatever time it takes (otherwise you'd be watching the meal as it cooks); studies on science and physics will still be using time references.

Nope, there's no escaping the use of time.

Guy1: Excuse me, sir. What time do you have?

Guy2: Why don't you get your own watch?

Guy1: Because I'm against time taking over our lives! We're slaves to the clock and, frankly speaking sir, I'm fed up with it! I've just formed a protest group who will be marching over to the White House and I've scheduled it for 9 o'clock sharp!

'Nuff said.

Hi Vulcan,

Of course we'd still have a need for time keeping but how would we reference it without some form of rotation to provide consistency to it? How would we say, for example, "I'll meet you tomorrow at noon"? Without rotation how would you define "tomorrow"? Or how would you define "next year at this time" if we were not revolving about some object like our sun?

You said "school and office work would still be so many hours long" but an hour is just a measurement of the earth's rotation (1/24th) in this case.

Do you see what I'm asking?

Cheers,

John

What I meant was that we'd still create a time reference with or without any view of the sun.

Perhaps we'd say that a second is half-a-heart-beat. After hundreds or even thousands of years, we'd say that a second is so-many-cycles-of the-natural-frequency-of-a-hydrogen-atom-at-some-temperature.

Eventually, we'd tire of having a clock that reads in half-heart-beats and develop a unit for multiples of seconds and so on and so forth.

Perhaps, if in a hollow sphere, we'd notice that we tend to get sleepy after about 50,000 seconds. We then decide that that would be the end of a day (wake-period) and then the start of a night (sleep-period).

Just as our ancestors developed units of measure based on human dimensions or seemingly regular or constant occurrences in nature, we'd eventually develop some standard time frame or frames.

Hello John,

I greatly respected your thought and imagination. Vulcan respectfully replied your comment. Also, I will try my best, because I am not a writer. Anyhow, the ideas rose to be reply by the viewers' opinions. This idea of interest led confusion that would carry on.

However, our civilization, communities ethnic background and believe which area we grew up and the level of exposure when you in childhood, youth or etc... If you said "how would we reference it without some form of rotation to provide consistency to it?

Let say:

My computer cursor is NOT blinking and it set still not forward or back which is the DASH vertical line is COULD NEVER there.

The body of rotation is evolved in circumference or c=2pi*r then we said r value never reach to one. So, r is approaching to zero therefore, c is not exist or zero. If the time 1/24th per day or when the 24 th reaching to zero is undefined under mathematical term.

My true believed that the time or vicinity at still is ONLY GOD could answer that. Or, by comparison God's time is bigger than the milky-way of the galaxy or greater than Comoving distance (46.5x10^9 ly away form Wikipedia) it perhaps per clock of god's time, which is the distance/time or visa versa my generation to my great great great great great grand kids or how many more? that you and I could never reach him. ONLY IN YOUR HEART, but we can ONLY reached him at time STILL or within a fraction 100,000,000th of a second or whichever first. As you can see a numerator is greater. But never or will be reach to zero.

Our time is here doing ours deed. Some of us not even believe in god. The different among us, or Christianities, Muslimism, Hinduism, Buddhism and etc… we worship its different and judging then confusing ourselves which led to conflicted.

My background born and raise in Asian community, religion as Buddhist. I am not religious person or exaggerated in any religion or any particular. Some understand Christianity, baptism, familiar Islamic culture and Mormons but not further in depth.

Therefore, our time is at STILL by compared with God's time. Associated with the 1/24th per day referenced, promotes to our understanding agreed to follow. Nevertheless, at TIME STILL can only exist in your heart but not anywhere else.

Sincerely,

Nuphea

I am still hoping to understand what rotation has to do with time. Very few of the time measuring devices I own rely on the rotation of anything.

If time is a function of rotation and our observation of this rotation, could I not stop time by making an opaque vehicle that travels at precisely the same speed but in opposite direction of this supreme rotation? Hey... make it go faster and I could re-write some of my finals and get a really good job!

Picture a merkelerk trapped in a time warp...

"that travels at precisely the same speed but in opposite direction of this supreme rotation?"

Sure! Just take a satelite in geosynchronous orbit and run it backward (did I really say that?)

-John²

Rotation's advantage in past technology was it's regularity. Repeatability. Most mechanisms which used a pulley, did so for relatively, precise regularity.

With today's molecular-oscillation and PLL technology, you can get some one second per fifty years, which is an amazing regularity.

As we have discussed in great thread depth, time remains a mystery when you come right down to it. Regularity and repeatability IMPLY time! We still have to define time in terms of itself. There's no other way. I don't care if you're talking about molecular oscillation or the swirling of galaxies, rotation, whether it be circular, eliptical, even to the point of being up and down, enters the picture when you talk of time. As we have already acknowledged, time; before and after, is something made up for man's convenience.

So if man did not exist, would time exist? Quarks would surely still zoom in and out of existence, the quantum fog would still swirl about, but would there be time?

If man didn't exist there would be no time! Now there.

I tend to think that time is a human concept.

In nature, precesses simply happen.

Human attention, needs some reference to rely on, concerning the apparent speed of processes, and some means to dissect that reference into units referring to sub-processes.

Note that most time-tellers are some regulatory devices, with a hierarchy of unit-structure elements. A pendulum, Shadow-Scale, Hour-Glass, and then a Mechanical Clock or a Digital Multi-Function Timer. Each using a controlled, regular, natural process, with a notable method or some contraption of display.

Intuitively we know, that the clock reminds us of time, but it's not time itself. Nothing is, Time is our mental impression of a move, of a process. When everything is still, we cannot conceive time, because it's a mental fixation, not a real physical entity.

I am really confused now! Why do we have 'Leap year' is it to correct the clocks or is it because the earth is slowing down. Also, why do we have a double leap year every so often (100 years)? Also, why is the sixth bleep on the Greenwich time signal longer than the others? It would seem that time is based on an atomic clock and then we have to correct it to bring it in time with the earths rotation.

Pretty simple really!

The time to orbit the Sun isn't an exact multiple of the time for the Earth to rotate once!

Why on earth should it be!!!???

Nature is under no obligation to follow nice integer relationships just because it would be convenient to us!!!

If you really want to avoid confusion get rid of all the clocks (and phones while you are at it!)...see Vulcan's earlier reply!

Nice inscription on the clock tower of an old building where I live.

"Work while it is day" (eg work when it's light sleep when its dark)

The leap year thing is because the actual time taken to go round the sun is closer to 365.25 days this can be lost in three out of four years but in order to keep our clocks in step the extra day is added every fourth year. The double leap year is for the same reason to keep things tidy. There are also other adjustments made for day length the leap second. As for the bleeps I forget why. Atomic clocks are too precise and the Earth wobbles around so we have to adjust for this situation.

Hi Brainwave,

See my post #10 (replying to Vulcan). Without rotation, how could we express 'tomorrow"? What would be a reference point for saying something like "I'll meet you here at this time tomorrow" if we didn't have the earth's rotation to base it on?

John

What would be a reference point for saying something like "I'll meet you here at this time tomorrow"

...a wristwatch perhaps?

Hi r&ddoc,

...a wristwatch perhaps?

A wristwatch, like most clocks, is based on fractions of the earth's rotation; an hour being 1/24th of a rotation, etc. Without rotation, you may as well throw the wristwatch away.

Again, without rotation, how do we define time?

John

Rotation doesn't define time - rotation captures the passage of time. Without it, we would simply use some other natural, universal process - such as sleep cycles, food requirements, the amount of time it takes for a cup of water to boil away in the blistering sun of the unrotating hell you've gotten us all into....

the unrotating hell you've gotten us all into....

Sorry about that bhankii,

I'll just give the sphere a little spin and all will be fine.

John

Brilliant answer! bhankiii,

I was going to suggest my own patented water clock.

A 1m cube filled with water which drains out of a 1mm diameter hole in the bottom of the cube...(available at a hardware store near you).

Just don't try and fasten it to your wrist!

You mean there's a 1m cube out! All this time I thought this 2m cube I've been carrying around was state of the art. Now I'll have to throw it away and upgrade.

Ahhh, but that's okay, this one didn't keep good time anyway. My clock repairman said the 1mm hole was rusted out and probably beyond repair.

Technology just marches on.

John

Hi bhankiii,

I agree with your point of view, except when you say: "such as sleep cycles, food requirements" it has been proven that our biological cycles (AKA circadian rhythm) are related to light / darkness intervals, and not to time.

This was discovered when a bunch of scientist were put in a cave for some months. If you are interested, let me know and I´ll tell you the story...

I know the story, thanks.

Most natural rhythms on the earth are related either to day/night, or the lunar cycle. Without rotation we would no doubt have different cycles, and those cycles would be the basis for our measurement of time.

Again, without rotation, how do we define time?

Hi Johnjohn, once man understood that the interval between day and night is due to the rotation of earth around it´s axis, and seasons represent one complete turn around the sun, smaller time measuring units were needed. After centuries of R&D the clock appeared.

Now that we have the machine that defines time, what do we want rotation for?

This is like Mr. Hide or Frankenstein: man created the monster, now it is out of control!

...by the way, I strongly recommend you to get (and read) a book I´ve read about 10 years ago called "The Discoverers" by Isaac Boorstein. It will blow your minds off!

Thanks,

I'll try to dig it up.

John

Back to basics. Does the earth rotate on its axis once every 24hrs exactly? If not, does this explain the long sixth bllep on the GMT signal? We know it goes round the sun once every 365.25 days approx. Tony G.

The five short pips are warnings of the impending arrival of the hour, the sixth pip starts at exactly the hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Time_Signal

No.

The marriage of time and rotation is a thing of the past. First the analogs were replaced by odometer-like rotating wheels, some of which "flipped" numbers, and then finally, the winning of the battle with digital clocks, watches, timers, etc. Free at last, free at last, time is free of rotation at last.

RichH

Woof!!! You certainly have received a lot of input regarding your question! I don't want to read it all, so just in case it hasn't been said yet, "no."

What made you think that the two are connected in the first place? If you go down into a cave, and live there for several weeks, you're still rotating with the Earth, but I guarantee you that your internal clock will be way off. You might even go psychotic. However, this has nothing to do with rotation.

A water clock doesn't use rotation (OK, some do), neither does a cesium vapor clock, but time just keeps ticking away. The whole nocturnal/diurnal thing is just how us humans have come to experience days, weeks, months, etc., but even if the Earth stopped revolving about the Sun, there would still be time - although there might not be many people left to experience it.

Time is not rotation based, rather it is movement based. We cannot separate time from distance or speed. All 3 rely on each other for definition. s=d/t I think what you are posing is to remove all reference points we have for measuring movement.

Think about this: Memory is our only proof of time, so I believe that movement cannot be prooven without memory also. Thus if you traveled to the most remote and 'empty' place in the universe and had no reference points to 'see' movement against you still would experience time. It may be counted in heartbeats but the movement of your heart can be remembered by your brain and you will have a concept of time without external references. Each 'new' thought entering your brain is also proof of time since it is a 'new' thought and you will remember a 'time' prior to the 'new' thought's arrival.

Time is a quantity that is finite, whereas the measurement of time passing is possible, we confuse the state of life and the reality of it as if it is somehow related to time. While this relationship does in fact exist as time unfolds, once the end of time comes, one's agony in darkness or joy in the light will continue forever. ΑΩ

Time is only related to rotation insofar it was useful to humans. I have to agree with Bhankii, had we lived somewhere without the rotational regularity to make such definitions easy, we would have found some other way to define the passage of our lives. Time won't just go away if you go into a cave and live there for a while... You just won't have a way of quantifying how much time has passed. (Except if you have one of these nifty modern devices called a watch. WHatever will they think of next??) As to the question about circadian rhythms. How can we know that had these regularities not been there our bodies wouldn't have developed another way to "tell time"?

Your puzzle arrises from the erroneous concept or idea of "Time", as an absolute and independent entity, that can be measured, with a unit of time, for instance, one second.

Time is the result of the comparison of two movements.

When you count with your chronometer how many seconds takes you to go, for instance, from where you are to the main door of your home, you are comparing the movement of the machinery of your watch ( oscilation and vibration are mouvements ), with your own movement.

Please think of that.

Recently, it has been discovered in Brasil a tribe whose language has no tenses.

Time does not exist for them, only movements.

I have studied "time" very profoundly and I intend to publish a booklet on it.

Arturo Pérez Rodríguez

Time is matter in motion.

I am in favour of the new digital time to drive the fortnight based system out of existence.

there will be 100 days /year

each day will have 100 hours

each hour 100 minutes

each minute 100 seconds. and so on

Yes, It was invented by the French...

You're just trying to make week days worse than they already are, aren't you.

Time comes from the rotation and the dividing of rotations but where does the seven day week come from?

God created the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day He rested, therfore man divides his work week into seven days. Only God exists out of time. He had no beginning and has no end, He is. We all had a beginning and we will all have an end. As long as there is a sequence of events there is time. It is just a matter of how you measure it. If you read old history before our present calendar events are recorded in relation to the reign of kings or major events like earth quakes or major battles.

It has been said that God invented time to prevent everything from happening at once.

It would interested to know if Native Americans and Aborigines and other such populations have any concept of 'weeks'.

Or are they just a recent creation?

(Can we please avoid a discussion about 'God' as I'm sure the writings of the Bible were derived from multiple human sources and open to much interpretation and translation)

Re:

(Can we please avoid a discussion about 'God' as I'm sure the writings of the Bible were derived from multiple human sources and open to much interpretation and translation)

Only because the question was "where do we get the concept of the "week", and he provided an answer. A week is an artificial unit of measurement, not based on roatation of any of the heavenly spheres, moon cycles or anything else BUT a throwaway comment in an old book.

Hey,

You'd better leave God out of this discussion, The bible has an all different time scale. Do you honestly believe that Methuselah lived for 990 years, Years as WE know them? Or that Sarah gave birth at the age 0f 90? we know for sure that the life span at these time was no more than 40 calender years?.

It will be an interesting, (and explosive) blog though, to try and compare biblical notes to modern science. I will not post it as I have no wish to be chewed to death.

Wangito.

From the toun where I come from I knew people that live more than 100 years.

One relative live 105 years. One old woman is living her 116 years and still ride a bike. I think may be she has more healthyness than me :). No body told me. My eyes saw it and there are paper in which it relais.

About get birth... when I was child I saw a woman that could not have babies because she was not able to sustent the baby in her toomy. So, for her surprice, and mine and all I saw arround my, her mother could. Her mother was arround 60 years old. They inplant the fecunded ovulo inside her mother. At 60 years old a women could have a baby.

So my dear friend. Because the bible do not tell at the begining how this can happen does not mean it is not posible. You have to read the compleate bible to start to understand some points from the begining. But As I know you will not read it to understand and you will continue talling that that is not posible.

Other think, science and GOD are together. Knowdlege comes from GOD. GOD hate the ones do not know, hates the ones that know and don't use their knowdleges, He loves the ones that fight to be wise.

This is not a fight, just no one can talk so sure about something that has no idea.

Best regards!

Hi Alhuey23,

I am 100% agreed, when is a question then an opinion starting. Therefore, on analogy would take place in multi decussions of subject are going to be appeared.

Nuphea

Hi Stan,

As long as there is a sequence of events there is time.

I have a problem with your above statement. A sequence of events implies that some event occurred at an earlier, or later, time than some other event. You're using time to define time.

John

Let talk about to events: Child and adult.

One event pass first than the other one. How we can measure it?. How I can define when i am child and when I am adult? when i can go to see naked women?.

For all we need reference. There is a reference for distance and it is international, I am talking about "one metter from side to side, edge to edge". The same is for Time (one second defined as most than one defined in this forum).

Time help us to define WHEN something happened with reference to another event that happened before. Or after.

Time will exist till movement ends. With out movenet time does not exist.

Hello Alhuey23,

Time help us to define WHEN something happened with reference to another event that happened before.

I have to repeat my earlier post to Stan the Man regarding your above sentence. You're defining time by time! Wictionary: WHEN (adverb): "At what time". So transposing this definition to your sentence:

Time helps up to define at what time something... See what I mean?

John

Hi John:

Thank you!, I will try to get better in my vocabulary :).

Time is a word use a measurement way we have. It is "a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time: mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Time

Here again we use time to define time. Because talking in normal words time has no definition with out time on it.

Time

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, www.wikipedia.com Jump to: navigation, search This article is about the measurement concept. For the magazine, see Time (magazine). For other uses, see Time (disambiguation).

A pocket watch, a device used to tell time Look up time in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

There are two distinct views on the meaning of time. One view is that time is linear and part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence, and time itself is something that can be measured. This is the realist's view, to which Sir Isaac Newton subscribed.^[1]

A contrasting view is that time is part of the fundamental intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which we sequence events, quantify the duration of events and the intervals between them, and compare the motions of objects. In this view, time does not refer to any kind of entity that "flows", that objects "move through", or that is a "container" for events. This view is in the tradition of Gottfried Leibniz^[2] and Immanuel Kant,^[3][4] in which time, rather than being an objective thing to be measured, is part of the mental measuring system. The question, perhaps overly simplified and allowing for no middle ground, is thus: is time a "real thing" that is "all around us", or is it nothing more than a way of speaking about and measuring events?

In physics, time and space are considered fundamental (i.e. they cannot be defined in other terms). Thus the only definition possible is an operational one in which time is defined by the process of measurement and by the units chosen. Periodic events and periodic motion have long served as standards for units of time. Examples are the apparent motion of the sun across the sky, the phases of the moon, the swing of a pendulum, heartbeats, and, currently, hyperfine transition in Cesium atoms.

Time has long been a major subject of science, philosophy, and art. The measurement of time has occupied scientists and technologists, and was a prime motivation in astronomy. Time is also of significant social importance, having economic value ("time is money") as well as personal value, due to an awareness of the limited time in each day and in human lifespans.

-------------------------------

So what is a second "The second (SI symbol: s), sometimes abbreviated sec., is the name of a unit of time, and is the International System of Units (SI) base unit of time." See www.wikipedia.com

International second

Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.^[1] This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0 K (absolute zero). The ground state is defined at zero magnetic field.^[1] The second thus defined is equivalent to the ephemeris second.

The international standard symbol for a second is s (see ISO 31-1)

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What is Rotation:

Rotation

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search This article is about rotation as a movement of a physical body. For other uses, see Rotation (disambiguation). A sphere rotating around its axis.

A rotation is a movement of an object in a circular motion. A two-dimensional object rotates around a center (or point) of rotation. A three-dimensional object rotates around a line called an axis. If the axis of rotation is within the body, the body is said to rotate upon itself, or spin—which implies relative speed and perhaps free-movement with angular momentum. A circular motion about an external point, e.g. the Earth about the Sun, is called an orbit or more properly an orbital revolution.

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So the original question is: What's the relationship between time and rotation?

So let's go to Phisic definition of Speed Rotation where Time and Rotation are tied together:

The speed of rotation is given by the angular frequency (rad/s) or frequency (turns/s, turns/min), or period (seconds, days, etc.). The time-rate of change of angular frequency is angular acceleration (rad/s²), This change is caused by torque. The ratio of the two (how heavy is it to start, stop, or otherwise change rotation) is given by the moment of inertia.

The angular velocity vector also describes the direction of the axis of rotation. Similarly the torque is a vector.

According to the right-hand rule, the direction away from the observer is associated with clockwise rotation and the direction towards the observer with counterclockwise rotation, like a screw.

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i do belive this was not the spected answere to the quetions.

The answere to the question is: No motion no time.

Saludos!

Excellent post Alhuey,

I think those are about the best definitions to be found. Probably nuff' said.

Cheers,

John

Hi There,

I have no idea where you can go to to see a second... but if you want to see an actual meter; you just have to go to the Office for Measures and Weights in Paris, were an 1 meter long rod of a special alloy is kept under certain conditions of moisture and temperature, to prevent it getting 999 or 101 mm long!

Hi!

I know!, thanks for the update :).

Are you sure your spelling knoledge comes from god?

Wangito.

Hey Wangito,

I'm with you on this. You see a lot of word misuse on these forums. Engineers, in particular, should be very precise in their use of words and language. Granted, leeway must be given to those whose primary language is not english. Nevertheless, the "spell-check" button should not gather dust. A little proofreading before clicking the submit comment button would certainly help too.

John

Well said!

I am saddened by the poor grammar and even worse spelling used by (some) of my peers. As noted, leeway should be given to those whose primary language is not english. Those of us in the business of science and engineering go to great lengths to be precise in our measurements, data collection and design. It is unconsionable for us to be imprecise in our communication of this information.

Too many people write the way they speak and ignore the basic principals of grammar we learned in grammar school.

Fortunately, while writing this reply, I enjoyed myself and therefore did not waste any time, circular or otherwise.

Well echoed my friend

Nop!

It's platinum, and it's obsolete.

My only problem with the book of Genesis is that it wasn't written first-person, singular.

Ignorant question from a palaeontologist. It seems to me that there cannot be a direct relationship between time and rotation simply because different planets have different rotational periods. Mercury, for example, takes 176 earth days to make two meridian transits and its sidereal day lasts about 58.7 earth days. Yet, I am reasonably certain time passes the same there as it does there. Is this not true?

That makes the "year" 2 1/2 days long? 5 days per our year? I think I've lived a few of those days. I need a nap.

RichH

The other thing that strikes me is that the moon is slowly sapping the earth's rotational energy and has been doing it for some time. Consequently, studies of fossilized corals show that during the Cambrian, a year was 412 days long. During the Devonian, a year was 400 days long. By the time you get to the Pennsylvanian, the year is 387 days long. Time cannot be tied to rotation. Someone tell me if I am missing the point here.

Hi jimpithecus,

Take a look at this site: http://www.exploratorium.edu/ronh/age/

Good insights by you, and others. Wangito makes some really good points on this topic but even if time is this "entity" that began as "no time" and at some point in "time" (have to circularly reference the entity in order to describe it) will revert back to "no time" all we can do is divide it up and measure it. If you go to the link above you'll find different ways to divide it up. How we divide it up obviously doesn't change what it is but unless we do then what is it? I like the post that describes it in terms of movement.

Cheers,

John

Read the latest Discover Magazine article about time. The author visited NIST where the atomic clocks are kept. From the article; "I said, your clocks measure time very accurately.But they said, 'our clocks do not measure time, time is defined to be what our clocks measure'. "

A clock is like a ruller, It is just an instrument to measure something called "time".

Exactly, their instruments count the vibrations of a particular atom or isotope (Cesium I believe). However, I still think of "time" as a very real and tangible thing. If you were to travel to the very edge of the universe, just beyond the "edge", matter would cease to exist as would time and space.

Hi merkelerk,

You said "If you were to travel to the very edge of the universe". The problem is there is no edge that we can detect. Think of the observable universe as being a bunch of galaxies residing on the surface of an expanding balloon (credit: Jorrie). Again, as Jorrie says, by analogy, if you were in a boat in the middle of the ocean you could see the horizon as the edge of the ocean although you know it's not the edge, it's only as far as you can see. For more on this look here.

I agree with you in that time does seem to be a very real thing but no one can really seem to describe what it is. We humans have this innate ability to conceptualize "before and after". We know absolutely that "this" occured before "that", or that "that" occured after "this", but we still don't know what that strange thing is that separates "this" from "that". It seems so simple. We live with it each moment of our lives but it remains a strangely vague and undefinable thing. As we said earlier, this seeming connection between time and rotation gives us the apparent regularity or repeatability that that we can use to express increments (increments = time!) of units defining before or after (see if you can define time in some way other than in terms of itself).

"Efforts to understand time below the Planck scale have led to an exceedingly strange juncture in physics. The problem, in brief, is that time may not exist at the most fundamental level of physical reality". This is an excerpt from this article if you'd like to read more.

Regards,

John²

I think, going through all the comments, this is the most unusual question.

The first commentator's explanation is like a Mumble-Jumble; it is more like looking at an ASCII table or something, as someone noted it already. Your mortarboard on your head looks better then your run down about this topic.

Ofcourse, time is a stand alone thing.

Everything's related to it including your biological clock or the movement of all celestial bodies.

I believe time used to be referred to as eternal as god. I don't know about god but time is for sure eternal just like its existence has neither beginning nor end - think about it!

Maybe god is time! I do not know - but everything is measured in time because it is there to stay forever and ever and how you measure it - it really does not matter.

Time will exist untill movement ends!!

Whatever it is, is passes! And always remember "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."

Don't be puzzled,

There are two (actually more...) different time scales.

Cosmic time: is the time required to form a change in the universe, for instance the elapsed time between the birth and and the death of an astronomical body and is measured from the beginning of the universe to actual time. The time expression (time units) is not the same as the time expression as for the,

Sidereal time: This time measures the diurnal change in place of the stars, basically the sun, relative to planet earth, but can be extrapolated to any celestial body in our system. (galaxy). As it was firstly observed in early history, obviously it relates only to visible celestial bodies. and only for very practical reasons it has a scale of sixty.

Does time ceases to exist?: Well not really, if you will mange to get away from our galaxy, it doesn't mean the earth will stop rotating around the sun, but you will enter a new time zone and a different clock will be needed.

Time (and frequency) are also defined as energy: So, before the universe, there was no energy, hence, there was no time. The only case when time will no longer exist, is when the universe will get rid of all it's energy.and return to it's original state which is no state at all. But don't you worry, no one really understands this...

And that's remind me of the professor at the Geology class saying: "...And we predict the end of the world to be at approximately another fifteen Trillion years."

A student from the last row jumps up and hysterically shouts, "How many?"

"About fifteen Trillion". The professor replied.

"Oh thanks god, I thought you said fifteen Million."

That's all for now.

Wangito.

Time is a way of measurement. Everything that changes needs to be meassured. If it is measured then can be ussed to control something other parameter.

Dark and light are here to show as the changes in Days. Seasons to show as when spring comes again. Changes of years.

In religion, man put a name to all things. Animals, sky, seasons, etc. In no religious thinking... man put the name to all things :).

Reference point. Everything needs a referent point to make it international. Time is not excluded.

Now that we understand the point that changes are the ones that need to be measured somehow in orther to be handdled by the man for whatever HE wants. Lets go back to the next question what happend if there is no Earth rotation.

With out Earth rotation Man can't live (At least Man have not developed something for this). So No MAN - No TIME. Just talking drasticaly :).

Maybe with out Earth rotation then we will measure the time in another way. But with out movement there is no time. I mean, If in the compleate universe all things stops at ones (atoms, electrons too), then time will stop too. Time is directly tied to movement. As distance is related to space. No Space between two referent points there is no distance :).

I hope it helps.

Saludos!

Delmar

Hi Delmar,

Just getting around to reading (re-reading) some of these posts.

You wrote:

"In religion, man put a name to all things. Animals, sky, seasons, etc. In no religious thinking... man put the name to all things :)."

Odd isn't it that for some reason things have been given names from the beginning.

Then you wrote:

"But with out movement there is no time. I mean, If in the compleate universe all things stops at ones (atoms, electrons too), then time will stop too. Time is directly tied to movement."

At absolute zero all movement screeches to an absolute halt. Thus at absolute zero time does not exist! Can this be true?

By this analogy all time is local, i.e., local to a particular point. So, if I take some molecule and lower its temperature to 0 deg. K, then time does not exist within that molecule. But only within that molecule. The molecule itself, although @ 0 deg and possessing no time is still moving with the earth which is moving around the sun, which is ...

Then by this discussion I must conclude that "no time" exists within "time".

The eloquence of my oratory is overwhelming!

John

Hi JohnJohn!:

What you have said is just correct!!!. Welcome to relativity thinking way!!!.

Of course to think about the complete stop of all celestial bodies is crazy and In my personal opinion "I don't think it could happened in the far future".

"By this analogy all time is local, i.e., local to a particular point. So, if I take some molecule and lower its temperature to 0 deg. K, then time does not exist within that molecule. But only within that molecule. The molecule itself, although @ 0 deg and possessing no time is still moving with the earth which is moving around the sun, which is ..."

Here happened a time bending. From the "0 deg. K molecule" point of view time does not happened. From the Earth movement, time and space; point of view, happened a time bending. The frozen molecule is there, but time is not affecting that frozen molecule due to movement was stopped. We can see this effect with frozen Vegetables. Their molecules are moving slowly. So dis composition, chemical reactions, are slowly.

For more information about relativity, time and space; here are some links I like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_theory

One moment. The Kelvin scale is an arbitrary scale for measuring temperature. Kelvin did have some mystical inspiration that 0° K means everything stops! Booga-booga!!!

I think that there may very little molecular movement at 0° K, but things are still quite lively at the subatomic level (although weird), and quantum physics is still making things pop in-and-out of existence... and other fun stuff!!!

You said:

I think that there may very little molecular movement at 0° K, but things are still quite lively at the subatomic level (although weird), and quantum physics is still making things pop in-and-out of existence... and other fun stuff!!!

Still, if movement aproaches 0, does my clock also run so sooooo s l o wwwww that it also aproaches 0? I'm talk'in here about .999999... % of 0 deg K. (incidentally, what's the keystroke(s) for degree & infinity?). If the clock does almost stop, is that only from my perspective as an outsider? But if I'm a quark frozen almost solid in this cold snap I probably don't care if the clock is stopped. At least until the spring thaw comes I can't be late for the party tonight (does "late" and "tonight" somehow refer to time that doesn't exist?).

(although weird); Can anything get more weird than these CR4 discussions?

Seriously though, super strings, 11 dimensions, etc. Weird is probably a gross understatement. You're right- lot'sa fun stuff going on.

John

It's not that all movement stops at 0º K, it's that all "molecular" motion, including Brownian, ceases. Electrons are usually at their lowest stable energy state, but they're still probabilitability moving around, and spins still occur, but the "Bose/Einstien" condensate is not immobile. Witness liguid helium (solid or frozen has never been observed) climbing up the walls of it's container at micro-degrees K.

As long as those electrons orbit, and spin, then there is rotation occurring. I'd say that that means time exists.

How they observed this, I don't know. visually, conductively, inductively, capacitively, any observation is going to add energy. How do observe 0K without adding energy?

One thing I don't understand is cooling neutrons by passing them through liquid helium.

Time flies when you're having fun.

RichH

Hi Rich,

I find this whole topic extremely fascinating (as I told Jorrie). Through osmosis, I'm learning more than I probably want to know. You, and Jorrie, have been most informative and I appreciate being able to absorb bits and pieces of it.

You said: "As long as those electrons orbit, and spin, then there is rotation occurring. I'd say that that means time exists."

You, then, confirm my original question, the topic of this forum. Without rotation there is no time! However, I guess the speed of light is independent of rotation though. Still, speed implies time...

Regarding Bose/Einstein, I was reading the following in Wiki concerning an experiment with rubidium-85:;

"When the scientists raised the magnetic field strength still further, the condensate suddenly reverted back to attraction, imploded and shrank beyond detection, and then exploded, blowing off about two-thirds of its 10,000 or so atoms. About half of the atoms in the condensate seemed to have disappeared from the experiment altogether, not being seen either in the cold remnant or the expanding gas cloud. Carl Wieman explained that under current atomic theory this characteristic of Bose–Einstein condensate could not be explained because the energy state of an atom near absolute zero should not be enough to cause an implosion; however, subsequent mean-field theories have been proposed to explain it."

Now that's really wild. And so is this:

Superfluid helium has many unusual properties, including zero viscosity (the ability to flow without dissipating energy).

So much to learn and so little time (there it is, that word time again).

Oh well, may as well have fun along the way.

John

Addendum to previous post:

I said: "You, and Jorrie, have been most informative "

Not leave anyone else out, I appreciate all the CR4 contributors.

John

Thanks for the kind words, John, but I'm working against the limits of both my knowledge and my memory. They both seem to be changing exponentially, but in opposite directions. Pretty soon I might know everything, but not remember what I know about.

I'm not sure I haven't entered that zone, at least when I zone out.

RichH

Remember that temperature is simply a measure of the rubidium atom's kinetic energy or their motion. A lot of interesting work has been done by cooling rubidium with lasers. They have been able to drop the temperature to a few nano-degrees above absolute zero.

By doing this, they first created a 2-dimensional B/E Condensate. Adding more lasers, they were able to manipulate the atoms into a 3-dimensional Condensate. Basically, all the atoms take on exactly the same wave function. Of course this can happen because the atoms used are bosons. If the atoms chosen were fermions, things might have been different.

I didn't mean to disagree with you. I think you are correct. I was just hooked by the thought that 0° K made much of a difference regarding stuff happening, regardless of time.

By the way, the keystrokes for degree is ° and the keystrokes for infinity is ∞. Click on the "blue omega."

Thanks. I found the keystrokes.

Amazing what you can see when you just look!

John

Did you find the blue omega?