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Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 12:02 PM

Yet another great invention (or so it seems) that could topple the reciprocating internal combustion engine, but will it? Is it too good to be true?

See: http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/08/20/a-new-engine-is-coming/

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#1

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 12:15 PM
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#2

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 12:19 PM

The way the article and video describe it, it is too good to be true. However, it might achieve some more modest gains.

BTW, I think this is the fourth time the topic has come up on CR4.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 12:25 PM

Oops - sorry, I've been away for a while.

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#4

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 12:28 PM

Video from oct '09...Why can't we see it running???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf_-IMgla34

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 1:26 PM

running like in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIPSTTvHfLs

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 2:39 PM

10-4, it's a pulse jet, sorta....

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 2:12 PM

In this video, Mueller says that in two years they will have the 25 kW engine running and driving a generator, and that he would like to see people driving a hybrid SUV powered by it in three years -- in other words today.

Given that the Jetta diesel engine peaks at 42% efficiency, even if 60% efficiency were possible with this engine (which seems completely unlikely, given Carnot efficiency limits) the gains he talks about (90% reduction in emissions) seem far- fetched (especially because the pressure peaks from a shock wave would tend to increase, not decrease NOx emissions, and because CO2 emission are tied to engine efficiency -- which if one its to believe the hype, would be less than 50% better.)

It seems so incredible that such a simple engine can take so long to build. I don't have millions to spend, but can still build a complicated recip engine from scratch in a few months, even when it requires outsourcing cam grinding, piston casting, etc. Any competent cnc machinist can make this turbine in a couple afternoons.

Garage inventors are often held up by funding (just ask me). But this is fully-funded project with nothing to show.

I'd be really impressed if he could show a real engine running at a real 30% efficiency. It that too much to ask? Instead of the hype, it would be great to see an animation of flow and pressure through one turbine chamber, showing how this shock wave is supposed to work, etc. At a university you could have a grad student do this for free.

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#10
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Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 3:00 PM

If you ask him the same question today, he would probably say the same thing.....This guy should at least be driving the prototype to work and back everyday, not still playing with it on a bench top....The operational drawings on it appear to have changed from 2009... This looks like the same concept of these pulse jets they make out of turbines...

http://hackaday.com/2005/10/28/mini-gas-turbine-motorcycle/

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#31
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Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/29/2012 1:27 PM

It sounds to me like he is running out of money and making extravagant claims in order to procure more capital.

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#5

Re: Yet another great invention .......... ?

09/25/2012 1:21 PM

The outlandish claims and bad math make this hard to believe, as does the fact that a real demo engine doing something real seems to be always just around the corner. The 25 kW version was to have been running a year ago. When did this first show up in CR4 -- 2009? (Yes -- I checked. He was talking about his 25 kW version in 2009. How can you burn through millions of Darpa money and not have an engine to show for it? How can you claim that it is incredibly simple to build, but impossible to build at the same time?)

A 30% reduction in weight of the 309 lb engine in (for example) a Honda Civic is a 93 lb reduction. The Civic weighs 2400 lb. 93 lb is 4.6%, not the 20% that the article claims.

Further, the actual weight of the car should be expected to increase, not decrease, because it is proposed as a hybrid. The Civic is 2400 lb and the slightly smaller first generation Prius was 2800lb. Hybridization has advantages (I am, after all, the designer of a hybrid) but weight saving is not one of them.

The article (and many articles promoting non-reciprocating engines) also incorrectly states that stopping and starting (or accelerating and decelerating) reciprocating parts uses a lot of energy. Remove the piston rings and heads from an engine and it can be motored over quite fast with a very small motor. The losses (in a complete engine) are from friction, heat losses from compression, combustion heat losses, etc.

It is equally incorrect to say, about a rotary engine: "Imagine how much energy is used in constantly changing the direction of each piece of the turbine! Any turbine blade is traveling east in one instant, and then travelling west in the next!"

Or, about a pendulum: "This can never work! The pendulum accelerates to a high speed and then comes to a complete stop! Imagine the energy loss with every single cycle!"

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#8

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 2:19 PM

Well if everybody is looking for a shock wave based engine that's an easy one. Just take a pulse jet and aim the exhaust through a turbine and there you go!

(Results, efficiency, and emissions may vary but I will guarantee it will be loud and impressive looking while it runs!.)

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#11

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 3:56 PM

It looks like the Dr. Norbert Mueller is regarded by some as a bit of a conman, a charlatan, a scammer. Forgive my naivety, but how does an engineering professor keep a job at a prestigious university in the USA if this is so? Or is the department enjoying wallowing in ARPA money until it runs out, and we are then to be told the project "did not reach its goals."

There he is in the heartland of the American Motor Industry apparently developing an engine that could make millions of $ of conventional engine tooling redundant. Sounds like a perfect story for conspiracy theorists to get working on.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 4:14 PM

I hear DR. Mueller plans to power the device using HHO gas generated on board the vehicle.

Then we won't have to import so much gasoline and crude oil. Oh, wait, what's that you say? We're exporting far more crude oil and gasoline than we import?

U.S. exported more gasoline than imported last year

I'm not selling my fleet of V-8's just yet.

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#13
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Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 4:23 PM

Not at all, I believe he believes that he can sincerely do what he says he can....and is a very compelling personality....The fact that he hasn't, and doesn't seem to mention that, or offer any explanation, may be a symptom of denial....I'm sure he's an excellent professor, and is qualified, but perhaps in this case, has over reached his abilities....

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 5:22 PM

Can't help thinking of a man with a similar name (Moller) and his simply wonderful Skycar that has sucked up $100 million of people's money so far, and counting.

Then there's Guy Negre and the MDI Air Car, that according to one article, in hybrid form, could be driven from one coast of Australia to the other (only about 2,500 miles!) on 1 tank of gas. According to their predictions, we should be tearing around in them already, but somehow, something went wrong.

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#24
In reply to #15

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 10:00 AM

Those are good examples.

In the Moller case, we can see how the project could work: the devil is in the details: how to keep the thing under control in the case of en engine failure, etc. Moller has been overly optimistic, no doubt, but at least the idea is fundamentally feasible -- we have jump jets that work well after all.

In the air car case, the physics are all wrong from the start, and the promotion has always avoided discussing the very real problems associated with the incredibly low energy efficiency of using compressed air (let alone its very low energy storage density). I doubt that Negre could be as dim-witted as he appears. His car runs on "clean non-polluting air" in just that same way that an air tool in an industrial plant does -- coal burns, a generator turns, line losses are incurred, a compressor runs, and the air tool runs with stunningly low overall efficiency. An electric tool would more than twice as efficient.

But who knows... I've talked to people with ideas that, to someone with a background in physics and thermodynamics, are completely implausible (motors that run generators that feed the motor, etc.) and some of them appear to genuinely believe that "over unity" machines are just around the corner.

For Mueller, this could be just one of several ongoing projects, and perhaps he has not kept things on track, partly because there is no real need to do so. It's not as if the funder asks for their money back if things don't work out. The funder, of course, is you and I (for those who live in the US).

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#14
In reply to #11

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 5:02 PM

but how does an engineering professor keep a job at a prestigious university in the USA if this is so?

Maybe the university instead of offering a Bachelors of Science Degree in Engineering, It offers a Liberal Arts Degree in Engineering.

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 2:27 AM

Ha!

We heard it here first!

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#16
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Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 6:12 PM

Maybe Mueller is just wildly optimistic. Perhaps the news on the engine goes out through a media department which recites claims but strips away the tedious conditions and disclaimers with which they might make sense.

Here is some history on wave disc compressors.

but how does an engineering professor keep a job

Publish or perish. There are hundreds of government-funded projects conducted at universities that go nowhere. SBIR grants, for example, are aimed at risky research that cannot otherwise (or is unlikely to) be funded in the private market. So as long as a prof keeps the money coming in, he is viewed highly by the university regardless of the outcome of the research.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'd guess that 75% of SBIR stage one grants do not go on to stage two. There are many funding routes for projects like this, and I don't know if the SBIR program enters into this one -- I suspect not -- but "success" of a project (having the research turn out the way the funding agency hoped) is not a requirement for a prof keeping his job.

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#17

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/25/2012 10:43 PM

If the Wankel was hard on apex seals, this is going to be worse. Each vane will need to seal on top, bottom, and outer face. To my mind, to be successful this design will need to spin at higher speeds than conventional ICEs do. This will only make the outer sealing issue worse as centrifugal forces act on it. JMHO.

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#19
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Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 5:30 AM

If you listen to the video clip, he claims that it has no seals and does not need them!!

I was in Paris last week and saw a model of Leonardo De Vinci's helicopter design in the gift shop at the Louvre. Turning the handle rotated the spiral sail, but it did not fly.

It is one thing to make a rotor turn, as shown, it is quite another to extract a useful amount of work out of it. With an open side to exhaust spent gasses, i.e. no exhaust back pressure, and no load on the output shaft, I can envisage how this thing turns. As soon as you try to extract useful work the lack of seals will allow the motive power to take the easiest path to neutral potential and it will stall. Equally the back pressure created by fitting a practical exhaust must force further leakage to adjacent chambers.

Many here have suggested that the professor has done a snow job on those providing the project funds. Maybe the funders would be better advised by physicists rather than marketeers and accountants who have their eyes on the goal, not the practicalities of attaining that goal.

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 10:01 AM

Doing OEM in the earliy 90's, I pushed our company in 3D CAD that saved us time while allot of our competitors were still in 2D.

I found out in very early, that we produced very pretty 3D conceptional design development that was just that...............pretty.

This alone adverted design concepts where we could at a very early stage change so that the final design would actually proform.

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#27
In reply to #19

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/27/2012 1:39 PM

Did you notice the sparks coming out of the exhaust? I took that as a sign that something was rubbing inside there.

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#28
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Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/28/2012 5:45 AM

I interpreted this as ignited fuel, like the flame plume you see out of the rear of a jet military engine.

If I am correct, fuel is still being burned with no useful work resulting. How does this square with the efficiency claims?

Also there is no obvious way to measure the efficiency of this combustion outside the turbine so how can they make credible claims about CO² emissions?

The more I analyse the video the less this stacks up.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/28/2012 12:59 PM

Also there is no obvious way to measure the efficiency of this combustion outside the turbine so how can they make credible claims about CO² emissions?


An optimist might say: "Well they are trying to maintain secrecy, and that is why they are saying nothing other than unsupportable claims." But they seem to be all about getting the word (hype) out -- they are anything but secret. "We'll give you outlandish claims, but no real data." they seem to say.

I am developing an engine-generator unit (which happens to be for the same purpose -- but for a smaller vehicle). It too runs at essentially constant speed, and is optimized to do so. Getting real numbers from this is incredibly easy even in a small, one-man-show, underfunded shop.) I know my generator efficiency curve. I measure fuel in, electrical power out, loading the generator with a bunch of water heater elements. Unbelievably easy. $2.5 million not needed.

If you were really interested in making something of this (and not just hyping it for grant money) would you not at least provide real numbers that someone like me can make sense of. I'm a near-perfect candidate, with a small plug-in hybrid proof-of-concept already on the road. A small. light, simple, efficient engine would have real value for me in production. (And would not require the complete $1,000,000,000 reengineering of an SUV to support serial hybrid operation. The $1,000,000,000 spent on the Prius design should be small potatoes in comparison.) Give me an 6kW version, and I can test it in my "lab" and on the road.

But no. There is nothing they say that leads me to think that the thing should work as advertised. Nothing they have said gives an actual efficiency number of the engine itself -- it is always conflated with the fuel-to-wheels efficiency of the whole vehicle, which has no utility for someone engineering a vehicle -- who presumably would be the market for this.

Programs like SBIR and ARPA can do some good. If only...

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#30
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Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/28/2012 8:17 PM

To your eye, what do you think is causing the sparks we see from the exhaust?

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#20

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 6:30 AM

I saw the 90% reduction in CO2 production and that sounds good ... too good. It seems that if you're burning gasoline, a hydrocarbon, that the carbon has to go somewhere, CO maybe?

The part about a piston engine using energy accelerating the pistons and tie rods is bogus. If nothing gives, no energy is lost, and engines are balanced so that the accelerations are cancelled.

Getting past the hype, still it looks like a promising design and might really be more efficient.

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#21

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 8:30 AM

It's great that people are thinking outside the normal, already accepted methods of doing things. That's where new products and processes come from; people who aren't content to just go with the flow.

We need to be careful that just because something is different doesn't mean its bad or won't work. When Henry Ford wanted an 8 cylinder engine all his engineers said it couldn't be done. It was only after a lengthy period of time of him insisting that they do it, that they finally broke through the mental barrier and we now have that engine and more variations of it.

A certain amount of skepticsm is good, questions help us move forward and refine previously accepted ways of thinking. The problem is that our human nature often keeps us confined to the way it has always been.

Maybe a related idea is the Bannister Effect where the 4 minute mile hadn't been broken for thousands of years in competition, but once Roger Bannister did it the 4 minute mile was broken by quite a few runners within the next 18 months. Nothing had changed except for the mental roadblock that it couldn't be done.

Great achievements many times happen when someone hasn't accepted the things have always been done.

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#22

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 9:10 AM

Dear EC and all,


I am always intrigued by "new" ideas, but also most cautious of them.
First, not being aware of what ARPA-E was, I did some checking ... below is an excerpt from Wikipedia ...


Legislative history

The concept of ARPA-E was initially conceived by a report by the National Academies entitled Rising Above the Gathering Storm: Energizing and Employing America for a Brighter Economic Future. The report recognized a U.S. need to stimulate innovation and develop clean, affordable, and reliable energy.[1] ARPA-E was officially created by the America COMPETES Act within the United States Department of Energy (DOE) in 2007, though without a budget. The initial budget of about $400 million was a part of the economic stimulus bill of February 2009.[2] ARPA-E was authorized but without an initial budget until it received $400 million of funding in February 2009 through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (Recovery Act). Then in early January 2011, the America COMPETES Reauthorization Act of 2010 made additional changes to ARPA-E's structure; this structure is codified in Title 42, Chapter 149, Subchapter XVII, § 16538 of the United States Code.

Among its main provisions, Section 16538 provides that ARPA-E shall achieve its goals through energy technology projects by doing the following:

  1. Identifying and promoting revolutionary advances in fundamental and applied sciences;
  2. Translating scientific discoveries and cutting-edge inventions into technological innovations; and
  3. Accelerating transformational technological advances in areas that industry by itself is not likely to undertake because of technical and financial uncertainty.

[edit]Mission

Like DARPA does for military technology, ARPA-E is intended to fund high-risk, high-reward research that might not otherwise be pursued because there is a relatively high risk of failure.[3] Like DARPA, it is intended to fund projects involving government labs, private industry, and universities. ARPA-E has four objectives:

  1. To bring a freshness, excitement, and sense of mission to energy research that will attract the U.S.'s best and brightest minds;
  2. To focus on creative, transformation energy research that the industry cannot, or will not. support due to its high risk, but that has high reward potential;
  3. To utilize an ARPA-like organization that is flat, nimble, and sparse, capable of sustaining for long periods of time those projects whose promise remains real, while phasing out programs that do not prove to be as promising as anticipated; and
  4. To create a new tool to bridge the gap between basic energy research and development/industrial innovation.[3]

[edit]Launch

President Barack Obama announced the launch of the Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy (ARPA-E) on April 27, 2009 as part of an announcement about federal investment in research and development and science education. The firstFunding Opportunity Announcement for the new agency offered $151 million, with individual awards ranging from $500,000 to $9 million. Applicants submitted only eight-page "concept papers" that outlined the technical concept; some were invited to submit full applications.[4]

Arun Majumdar, former deputy director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, was appointed the first director of ARPA-E in September 2009, over six months after the organization was first funded.[5] U.S. Secretary of Energy Steven Chupresided over the inaugural "ARPA-E Energy Innovation Summit" on March 1-3, 2010 in Washington, D.C..[6]

Interesting how the entire plan states, "ARPA-E is intended to fund high-risk, high-reward research that might not otherwise be pursued because there is a relatively high risk of failure." While I don't know all the rules of the 'game', I wonder where is the accountability after receiving the funds?

I have been aware of several such instances, not involving government grants, but solicited investment funds whose sole impetus was to grow funds NOT for the original prospectus, but for future corporate growth in other areas. It wouldn't be appropriate to state names or specifics, but one corporation I am aware of whet through these steps ...

1) Found an invention of value ... not necessarily value as a viable product, but value in its ability to be promoted without the immediate promise of success (that's the important part, because immediate provability would too soon 'burst the bubble')

2) Made dazzling proposals to investors based on this invention, and collected millions in investment funds (its all about salesmanship ... statistics can always be juggled to prove anything)

3) Hired high-profile persons (with these funds) to further add credibility to the scheme (no longer just an invention, but a solid organization of believable folks)

4) Built prototypes, conducted experiments, created hype in order to collect more investment monies (just to prove that something is happening)

5) Expanded their business platform into other associated areas with viable and proven products (buying other dysfuntional companies for pennies on the dollar to gain some income, and add perceived value to the overall company)

6) Gained even more investors

7) Let go their high-profile staff, because they were no longer needed to add value to the company

8) Ceased all promotion of the original invention (not an announcement, but just let it die gradually)

9) Continued the business with the gained assets, but continuing to lose money (dysfunctional companies, once acquired, often remain dysfunctional because the new owners have no more ability to 'save' them that did the original owners)

10) Sold the business for pennies on the dollar

10) Investors LOST, Originators WON

Unfortunately, I don't see this in a very different light. Possibly, the good Doctor was not quite as unscrupulous as others, maybe he believe in his invention, but at the end of the day the money will probably be gone, and there will probably be little to show for it.

One trait I have seen in business is, once you make a claim and gain some notoriety for that claim, you have a huge problem if you ever state later, "sorry, I was mistaken", then the only means of survival is to perpetuate the lie until it can no longer be convincing. I see this in business every day.

One thing is sure ... there will always be greed, and those clever enough to play on the imagined success of others. The only defense is to be informed as one takes those risks. Did anyone do any research into the feasibility (technical or manufacturing) of these inventions? I doubt it.

Kind regards ...

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 10:42 AM

Your excellent description is that of a very sophisticated (and long term) investment scam. I have fallen for a couple of these in the past - fortunately with quite small amounts. A cleverly produced glossy brochure is mailed out to known investors, full of glowing reports about a small company that has just gone public (usually on the OTC market), with some idea that will change the world. In tiny print, there is a disclaimer, from which you can see how much the printer was paid for this service - usually tens/hundreds of thousand of $. The stock goes public at let's say $7. Within a few days or weeks, its crashed to almost nothing and stays there until it's delisted. They've taken your money. There's no redress. The OTC is littered with worthless companies like this. They are set up only to defraud.

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#23

Re: Yet Another Great Invention ?

09/26/2012 9:19 AM

Oh Look, its the Ron Popiel for mechanical engineering!

For just 19.95 its the perfect Cristmas Gift!

BUT WAIT!

If you order right now we'll send you TWO complete non-working prototypes for the same low price. Just pay separate shipping and handling.

Sorry, could help myself.

For our friends in other countries, Ron Popiel was sort of a television snake oil salesman. Although his pocket fisherman was kind of cool.

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