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Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/06/2013 6:44 PM

Please explain to me why spent nuclear reactor cores are discarded and buried? If they are still hot, why can't they be used to generate steam?

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#1

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 6:48 PM

To be able to contain the Contamination, is the only thing I can think of.

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#2

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 7:04 PM

Hot radioactively.

They are contaminated and unsuitable for further use. They would also be obsolete by the time they were decommissioned.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 7:09 PM

At Chernobyl, I had heard the radioactivity on its the lead shielding actually turned into gold............, but highly radioactive............. An Alchemist dream .....

Now I have to look for the source....:/

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 7:22 PM

This one says no it ain't so.

http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/physics10/old%20physics%2010/chapters%20(old)/2-Radioactivity.htm

Its called nuclear transmutation, Well this has more hope, it's a blog site, still looking for the Chernobyl incident....

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=194568.0

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 8:00 PM

You can't turn lead into stable gold....though you can turn gold into lead.

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 8:49 PM

Oh I disagree. It is certainly easier to go from gold to lead. A little proton beam bombardment of lead to spawn some asymmetric collisions. With a little luck a few of the briefly created Bismuth atomic nuclei will spit out a pair of alpha particles. The individual gold atoms will be difficult to detect and with so many high energy protons coming in, a few milliseconds could be considered stable.

Just having a little fun here.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 9:55 PM

I like your device for applying new perspective to 'stable'.

It seems like it might come in handy.

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#25
In reply to #6

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 2:21 PM

This must of been what I was thinking about, it was Russian scientists discovery, but I must have just tied it to Chernobyl

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/generalchemistry/a/aa050601a.htm

http://coldfusionnow.org/lenr-and-transmutation-it-is-going-to-happen-soon-than-you-think/

Here's an excerpt:

"In 1972, Russian scientists found that the lead shielding of an experimental nuclear reactor near Lake Baikal in Siberia had unexpectedly turned to gold!

Unfortunately such gold is likely to be radioactive, and would decay back to stable lead, whilst releasing dangerous radiation."

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#36
In reply to #3

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/08/2013 12:14 PM

You can make gold from other materials, it's just not cost effective....and I might add you can power a nuclear reactor with spent cores...

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/210648751.html

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/78213.html

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#40
In reply to #36

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/08/2013 1:50 PM

Never really said it was viable, but it also isn't permanent.

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#49
In reply to #2

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/09/2013 7:13 PM

Of cource it is Hot Radioactively. But I disagree with your statement that it would be obsolete. WHAT NEW technology is there for fuel rods and assemblys.

The last I knew of was EXON Nuclear Made a better connection system to keep the rods apart Yet together ( The geometry of the fuel is very important ). That was about 30 years ago and was intended for earth Quake areas.

As far as the core goes there has been no changes that are significant in technology.

also we could recycle the used Fuel Rods. But that wont happen for the same reason that Millions of Tons of Highly radioactive waste is stored next to power plants rather than being put somewhere were they can be safer for long term. And it would bring the cost way way down.

Even with Railroad cars that have been proven to handle any kind of impact and explosion way beyond something that would ever happen to a rail road car and with demonstrations of how they hold up the Granola heads that are hired by the oil companys most likley will not allow for transport to a more suitable place and put into a form that is stable for many thousands of years.

We do not do that as idiots and greed keep us from doing what we could do and have had the technology to do to make safe cheap clean engergy. In Sacramento CA they electircity was so cheap from the power plant that was shut down due to granola heads that know little about the plant driven by a few that do know what the issues are but are paid by someone to make nuclear power look dangerus. And it is in its current situation but it does not have to be.

The same kind of BS is happening to Hydro electric dams. We should never allow anyone to take those down. we have and have proved that fish and every other concern can be dealt with. And there is no polution regardless of that the siera club says when they try and say that the vegitation in the water behind the dam causes methane at a rate that is higher than what comes out of a stack at a coal fired plant.

This is Also BS. The same process that happens underwater happens on the ground with falling leaves etc..In fact it slows down the decay of and thus the release of CO2 that is stored in those leaves and other plant mater.

Where do you THINK all the CO2 is going to??? Most folks do not have a clue. But it is simple. IT causes more microbs in the sea and those die and fall to the bottom and become oil and coal over time.

In the old days we used to have central heating generators in small citys. They would distribute the heat as steam to anyone that wanted to pay. As the prices of oil went down it was no longer profiable to do that. But now it is.

But again there are so many regulatory agencys that stop antthing that would be a good thing.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/09/2013 8:24 PM

You misspelled Exxon.

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#4

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 7:22 PM

After years in the core the rods aren't as "hot" as they were when new. They're still radioactive but not to the same degree as new, so the overall reaction becomes less efficient.

It's kind of like trying to burn lignite in a boiler meant for anthracite, the flame temperature can never match that of hard coal. You can burn a small percentage of lignite mixed in the coal stream and make some process adjustments to accommodate it, but go over the critical percentage and the entire process suffers.

Similarly for fuel rods, too many spent rods and the reactor won't get as hot (temperature-wise) as it's supposed to.

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#20
In reply to #4

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 11:42 AM

"New" fuel Assemblies are not radioactive and are often shipped by normal trucks over the road. They don't become radioactive until they are used in the reactor. From that time on they are dangerous and require shielding from the general public.

Starting up a new reactor with all new fuel requires a radiation source be included after the fuel assemblies are installed in order to initiate the reaction.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 11:49 AM

"New" fuel assemblies actually are radioactive..... but then so are bananas which are also shipped by normal trucks.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 11:52 AM

The truck driver is radioactive, too.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 11:57 AM

...and it is especially noticeable after his breakfast of bananas and fuel assemblies.

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 3:28 PM

OK, I'll give you that one!

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#7

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 8:04 PM

The nuclear cores are hot radioactively, and in fact are somewhat hot thermally.

.

Of course, hot is a relative term. And the spent cores will not operate hot enough to generate power efficiently enough to justify forgoing a replacement.

.

The cores are discarded because Carter outlawed reprocessing of fuel in hopes it would stall nuclear proliferation.

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#8

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 8:18 PM

There's first a linguistic complication here. The term "hot" with a nuclear reactor core can be used to describe the temperature of the mass and it can mean the level of ionizing radiation the spent core produces. A spent core will no longer be able to produce sufficient heat with all moderating material removed (full throttle) to generate sufficient steam to push the turbine designed for that power plant. The nuclear decay that will continue in the spent fuel will produce thermal heat but many orders of magnitude less than when fission was self sustained. People have attempted to design energy conversion systems (sterling engines) to retrieve this energy but to date no practical design that also contained the contaminants has been found. One guy even proposed letting the hydrolysis that happens when the rods get exposed to produce hydrogen for combustion. Then somebody reminded them that oxygen is also produced at the same time and in the same space. An explosive gas mixture was being created as metal rods were self heating in that mixture.

Now there is a plan on the books where a particle accelerator both promotes further fission and speeds up the decay rate so that spent fuel releases more energy at a higher rate that can natural decay. To my knowledge, no field testing of this concept has been done but it does intrigue me.

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#66
In reply to #8

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/11/2013 3:51 PM

The fuel rods that power a nuclear power plant ARE radioactive. They also are made up of many small fuel pellets that are stacked and combined inside of the metal rods to create the fuel rod.

Hydrogen is a byproduct of ALL nuclear fission and is dealt with. The explosion at Cherynobl as well as the Japanese plants were of the hydrogen gas. When you have a nuclear reaction one of the product is the alpha particle that consists of the helium nucleus and beta particle that is a hydrogen atom plus some other particles.

As for a place to deposit the spent fuel they at last that I knew were still being held at the site where they were used and could not be transfered elsewhere.

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#71
In reply to #66

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/21/2013 1:28 PM

The particle in beta radiation is not a 'hydrogen atom plus a couple others'.

.

A beta particle is an electron (for beta minus decay).

.

.Beta minus decay involves the conversion of a neutron to three particles: an electron (beta) a proton, and an antineutrino.

. This decay is typically delayed from the actualy fission event.

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#72
In reply to #8

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/26/2013 4:00 AM

'.... A spent core will no longer be able to produce sufficient heat with all moderating material removed (full throttle)...'

.

A minor correction is needed..... 'all moderating material removed' isn't necessarily 'full power' (which is what I assume you mean by 'full throttle').

.

In reactors that operate mainly by thermal fission (most reactors), a decrease in moderation leads to a decrease in power (and in increase in moderation leads to an increase in power).

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#9

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 8:47 PM

As others have indicated, the heat energy is of a lower quality (low temp). Back in 1976, I knew a mech. engr. that worked on a team that studied using the waist fuel rods to heat cities. I recall him saying that cost, and public fear killed this.

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#11

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 9:26 PM

A reactor under full steam can produce a few 100MW. A collection of "spent rods" in a cooling pond produces a few 100kW or less, decaying fast at that. While still quite "hot" radiation wise.

It would be too much trouble for little power, trying to squeeze the last erg out of it.

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#59
In reply to #11

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/10/2013 7:21 PM

That would be 1200 megawatts?

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#13

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 10:15 PM

As a minor semantic matter, it is fuel rods that are discarded (or possibly reprocessed). The reactor core (singular) is where the rods are inserted.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 10:32 PM

This is not universally true, though it is generally true for most commerial nuclear reactors.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 10:36 PM

My understanding of a core is that it is what contains the fuel rods.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 10:42 PM

Some cores do not have fuel rods.

Some cores are made of fuel assemblies, for example. There are no rods to be replace in that case. The entire core is replaced when needed.

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#17
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Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/06/2013 10:46 PM

Maybe that's what Ron meant.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 3:33 AM

Regardless of Ron's intent, his use of the term 'core' does not require correction. Depleted reactor cores are removed and basically discarded.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 11:43 AM

They make pencil leads out of them (for government workers).

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#27
In reply to #17

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 3:42 PM

I worked at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard back in the 60's and helped design a railway vehicle to transport a spent reactor core from the USS Nautilus to a disposal site out west. The railcar was fitted with cooling equipment to keep the temperature down. It seemed to me that there was stll a lot of "life" left in that core that could still be used to generate steam to generate electricity. I will accept the idea that there is not enough "heat" left to be usable. Thanks all. Just for your information, I had to go into the reactor room where the core was located dressed in special clothing. It was so "hot" (radioactively), that one would get a month's dose of radiation in just 1/2 hour. I don't think I glowed in the dark.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Nuclear reactor cores

06/07/2013 4:17 PM

Did you feel like a big yellow duckling in the anti-C's?

Wearing anti-C always feels to me like I'm doing a high effort, poorly executed, rendition of a baby duck: all, hot (temperature wise) and sweating which eventually makes your shoes start to squeek inside the yellow overboots.

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#19

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/07/2013 11:41 AM

Yeah, why? I hear that Iran and Syria are in the market!

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#29

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/07/2013 8:16 PM

It's an emotional/political/security issue. Emotional because of NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard), political because nobody wants to be accountable, and security because of the threat of terrorism and/or nuclear blackmail.

Although I believe we are using core and fuel bundle interchangeably, there is a big difference in their short and long term radioactivity. The core is a metal structure that holds the fuel bundles. Like any originally non-radioactive material used in close proximity to the fuel rods, it has become irradiated but contains no radioactive material so there are little long term decay products, it is "simply" a radioactive hazardous waste product.

The fuel bundles are where the radioactive action is, and theoretically that heat could be captured and used, but it is low quality and the quantity is always decreasing over time. Here's a piece from Wikipedia:

"...Rather than manage the pool's inventory to minimize the possibility of continued fission activity, China is building a 200 MWt nuclear reactor to run on used fuel from nuclear power stations to generate process heat for district heating and desalination..."

Here's a NRC piece that gives us a hint at the amount of heat that is available:

"...Dry cask storage: The NRC has also authorized nuclear power plant licensees to store their spent fuel on-site in NRC-approved dry storage casks. These casks:

  • Are located inside the plant's protected area.
  • Are designed to resist floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, projectiles and temperature extremes.
  • Are robust, with very thick metal or steel-reinforced concrete outer shells and a sealed inner metal cylinder.
  • Allow the spent fuel to cool without fans or pumps by drawing fresh air in at the bottom and allowing the heated air to rise through vents at the top. A typical cask emits roughly the same heat as a home-heating system (highlighting mine)..."

I also remember working on a study of using the waste heat from the SFP (Spent Fuel Pool) as the source for heat pumps used to heat the office space at a nuclear plant. There are no safety issues because otherwise the heated water is passed through heat exchangers and the heat just becomes part of the plant's cooling water requirements.

So to answer Ron's question, yes it can, but no it won't (at least in the US), be used, for the reasons stated in my opening sentences.

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#39
In reply to #29

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 1:49 PM

'.... Like any originally non-radioactive material used in close proximity to the fuel rods, it has become irradiated but contains no radioactive material so there are little long term decay products, it is "simply" a radioactive hazardous waste product.....'

.

'....it contains no radioactive material...' is no longer necessarily true once it has been exposed to a strong neutron flux.

Even though cobalt has been minimized in materials that are exposed to a strong neutron flux, levels of contamination are typically large enough to represent a hazard from Co-60 from alloys used in the core and reactor vessel and associated plumbing. Co-60 has around a 5 year half-life and the decay energy is relatively strong.

Ni-63 (~100 yr halflife) and Fe-55 (~2.7 yr halflife) also represent significant decay activity concerns after neutron irradiation.

.

Any piping/plumbing in contact with the primary fluid for a significant also has a good probability of being contaminated with CRUD (named after first investigated occurance: Chalk River Unidentified Deposits). CRUD is typically highly irradiated wear products that have passed through the core regularly entrained in the primary coolant and then at some point adhered to the piping/plumbing wall. There may also be fission products, or fuel components in the CRUD if the cladding integrity has been compromised by fuels swelling/fission product gas pressure.

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#30

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/07/2013 10:51 PM

I'm going to take a wild guess....because we are a throw-away society?

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#31

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/07/2013 11:15 PM

About 15 or 20 years ago, I read about a device that produced electricity from spent fuel rods.The theory of operation was:A fuel rod was surrounded by a copper wound coil(s.) The neutron emission excited the electrons in the copper wire. The voltage was stored in a capacitor,and an oscillator circuit converted the DC into A/C and transformed it into the desired voltage.

This produced a usable amount of power,enough to power an average home.These could be housed at the nuclear plant, and the output combined with the existing grid.At least it would not be wasted heating a salt mine.

So why has this possibility not been explored, or perhaps it has, and was not viable.

Has anyone else heard of this?

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 12:03 AM

In a previous thread on CDR4 this subject came up. In my "need to know" mode I contacted Canada Nuclear and asked what fuels the then new Candu 600 could handle. The answer I recieved was that it had been completely successful at handling spent uranium from US PWRs as well as the Thorium fuel bundles which my query was actually about.

There is no need for witchcraft on this subject... no K-tel coils for your uranium bundles. There is still plenty of energy recoverable with known technology.

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 8:23 AM

Very interesting!Thanks for the info.I was unaware of this technology.Another wrinkle has been added since you tweaked my curiosity.I am still learning about this CANDO technology.

Now the question that begs an answer, is:Why aren't we(The USA) using this method?

Why are we shipping it off to a salt mine to be entombed for eons,at great cost and risk to future generations?

The USA used to be a CAN DO! country,now I am afraid we are resting on our laurels.We have not had a good president since JFK,who famously said:

"Ask not what your country can do for you,rather ask what you can do for your country."

Society has assumed an "You owe me" attitude,and "What's in it for me?" whine.

"Get over it" the song by the Eagles,says it very well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-Y7MAASkg

I nominate this song for our new National Anthem.

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#41
In reply to #34

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 1:51 PM

Because Carter outlawed reprocessing/reuse of spent fuel in a misguided (in my opinion) effort to stem nuclear proliferation....and no president since has undone the damage.

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#37
In reply to #31

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 1:28 PM

I think you are remembering something pretty closely, but maybe a little off.

The products of fission in spent fuel have nuclei that are high in neutrons as compared to protons, but the decay method is not largely by emitting neutrons. Also any neutrons emitted would not have a large chance of interacting with a coil of copper wire.

.

Typically fission products undergo beta (minus) decay to correct the excess of neutrons in the nucleus. Beta (minus) decay involves the ejection of an electron from the nucleus. Being charged, the electrons would almost certainly interact with even a very thin coil of copper.

.

I think you description is valid with the just the mistake of remembering the interaction being with neutrons instead of electrons.

.

.

I also remember a technology being discussed wherein hafnium that had been irradiated (it is a poison used in control rods) was being used as a 'quantum battery' if emits a higher energy gamma when triggered by a lower energy microwave signal....if I am remembering correctly.

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#43
In reply to #37

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 5:27 PM

You are probably right about that,a few cobwebs do seem to creep in once you pass the third score of years.I am pretty sure there were multiple layers of copper coils,like the primary of a transformer,and it seems like there were even more windings in the secondary,so in effect,the rods were in the center of a step-up transformer.Of course, I could be wrong about that also.At any rate, any safe method to put the waste to use is better than what they are currently doing.

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 9:39 PM

It's not that fancy, simply an array of thermocouples with the hot junction in the warm radioactive material and the cold junction embedded in the protective shell. They're used in satellites and deep space probes for powering them when they're too far from the sun for photovoltaics, as well as remote locations with limited insolation.

From Wikipedia:

The radioactive material is euphemistically referred to as the "Heat Source".

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#33

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 5:02 AM

Dear Mr.ronseto,

The spent Fuel from Nuclear Reactor - is still RADIO-ACTIVE, cause injury to living persons and animals.

If you refer/read the book,NUCLEAR POWER ENGINEERING by El-Wakil, you can find more details of the problem on account of handling the spent wash fuel. I had the book, but it is in a damaged condition. Now a days lot of soft copy/e-Books are available. I will try to copy and send through personal messaging in CR4

About 30 years back (if I remember correct) one Nuclear Power Plant was closed and it was concealed by pouring 1300 MM of CONCRETE over the plant which has cost more than the Plant Cost. This was the WORST NUISANCE to be handled .

DHAYANANDHAN.S

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#35

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 8:37 AM

For many years my Brother-in-Law working for a private contracting firm decommissioning nuclear reactors throughout the US and Canada. He now works for Lockheed-Martin at the KAPL site in Niskayuna NY. From what I remember him discussing long ago, the reactor components are removed after a period of time because the metallurgical strengths are seriously degraded from neutron bombardment.....with most, if not all metals exhibiting fractures and other weaken states.

I may be wrong on this, or misunderstood him. It has been about 25 years since we talked about this, so my gray matter may be a tad on the "fuzzy" side.

I used to kid Peter that he "glowed in the dark" so my sister could find him in the sack at night! My kid sister naturally got pissed-off at me whenever I kidded around about this, which was often! LMAO!!!!!!!

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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 1:48 PM

They are decommission the nuclear plant in Two Rivers, Wisconsin. The say it'll take all of 20 years to do it.

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#42

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/08/2013 1:58 PM

The key thing is that fuel in a reactor is in a critical configuration where you can get as much heat as you want and can handle, controlled by how may neutrons are flying around. Typically that heat production rate is on the order of 30,000 to 40,000 kW per tonne of uranium in the core. By the time it is "spent" after 3 to 6 years it has produced 1 trillion kwh of heat, and about 1/3 of that in electricity, from each tonne of loaded uranium. It is spent mostly because it can't help sustain the critical configuration.

In contrast, spent fuel produces only radioactive decay heat at a rate of only 10 to 20 kW / tonne after 1 year of decay, and 1/10th of that at 10 years.

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#45

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/09/2013 7:37 AM

Short version. Folks that care take the time to learn and understand and see the waste as something we can use. BUT the majority of folks do not know the difference between a crouton and a neutron. So it is

both technical but mostly I guess the best word is political that we wast so much energy in so many ways. It is just a flat Shame.

Most of the posts have covered a great deal of the technical side of things. But I can add a few.

As a Brand new reactor goes on line due to the neurons flying around at 50k MPH if not for the Control

rods to slow these racing particle down to about 5K MPH a lot of bombardment of particles changes

the contents of the core to something other than they were. A couple examples would be Uranium 238 gets hit with a neutron at 5K to 50K MPH and it may split thus making up several lighter elements but it also may absorbe the neutron and be converted to Plutonium. This is acctualy a prety dam cool thing

as it is the basis of a Breader Reactor. Convert the almost useles Uranium 238 to useful plutonium 239. Then run the reactor on Plutomium that was made from the almost useles uranium 238 ( Uranium 235 is what runs a reactor. Mined Uranium out of the ground has to be Enriched to have a higher level of

Uranium 235 else the reacor will not run. Other elements in the fule rods get changed into other isatopes and elements and some compounds that acctualy cause the reactor to not work well. After running longer more changes happen and the reactor speeds up again or is no longer hinderd. Also the design of the core alows for these changes and the operators can make adjustments to keep things running.

But. Personaly. I would use the very safe Glasificatin process developed by Batell Labs if I recall that turns the core waste into a glass like substance and then that substance is stored on a several layer of different materials and put way underground in salt formations. But the crouton folks will not allow it. They do not stop and think. If you put something that far underground and something happens that would couse the earth that far down to end up on the surface then this would take and event so biblical in proportion that we and they would not be worried about what is brought up from that far down but rather what caused such a disater. Only a few things could posibly do cuase such an event and that would be an ateroid hit of such a size and speed that we are not going to worry about ANYTHING

because we and all bacteria will be dead. A Volcano could do the trick but when you are putting this stuff in a place that is so stable from a geollogical standpoint that if things started to change in the next

25,000 years we would have time to move the stuff to another location. But things do not happen that fast. EVER. Not Geologicly.

Thus we should switch to Thorium reactors that are so much safer than anything ever made and very clean and very safe. But that will not happen ether as folks will get the hell scared out of them by those that stand to gain from NOT using nuclear power getting those that do not know anything afraid.

I would like to go on with more but then I would be a little of topic. But I will say this. If we did store all the spent cores AS GLASS Encased in Stailess Steel and Contreate and other readaly available stuff

we can harness that engergy. But it will not happen.

Jimmy Joe Jetter

PS Sorry my spelling is not better.

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/09/2013 6:30 PM

However, U-238 is NOT useless if we used a "fast neutron" reactor such as the IFR or PRISM. Fast neutrons will cause fission of the U-238 molecules--and also thorium.

PS: Try using the spell checker.

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#46

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/09/2013 8:01 AM

If you want the answer for real. Watch the movie Idiocracy.

Take care to listen to the narator of the Movie. It is very easy to understand and the answer is in that movie if you keep in mind it is based on a book that came out a few decades ago.

It is acctually a warning desiquised as a comady as that was the only way to get the movie out at all. Even with the desquise the Movie Industry Limited Distrabution to about 1/10 of other movies. In short. The movie industry did to the producers of this movie what they are so angery and state that the Republican are censoring. But they do the same.

But the answer is in that movie. And if you pay attention it is technicaly accurate so far and I am sure it will continue to be. Some folks MAY think this would be off topic but it is not. It is the bigest reason the spent cores are not used or safely stored and used. Sorry my spelling is not the best.

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#47

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/09/2013 3:17 PM

If I'm not wrong around twenty or thirty years ago there was a lot of discussion about sending this stuff into space. So it must be pretty undesirable. As well a big headache to properly dispose of.

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#51
In reply to #47

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 2:12 AM

There was also a lot of discussion even prior to that about sending Pan Troglodyte into space. That wasn't just idle talk, some Pan Troglodyte actually was sent into space. It certainly can be a headache to deal with as it ages as well.

So it must be even more undesirable than spent fuel, right?

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#60
In reply to #51

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 4:24 AM

Yes. I'd say about as much as sending some Hominin equiped with a few more cc's of gray matter.

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#52

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 9:36 AM

In this regard I only have one word to add.

Fukushima

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#53
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Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 11:53 AM

The unfortunate Fukushima accident was not caused directly by the nuclear reactor. Instead it was caused by natural forces; the reactor got involved due to lack of coolant flow.

The newer fast neutron reactors will not have this problem. They will safely and passively shut down if the electric power is cut off. The liquid sodium coolant has enough capacity to absorb the residual heat within the core, plus there will be thermo-siphon cooling.

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#54
In reply to #52

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 3:28 PM

I wish there was a 'Bad Answer' button. I realize 'Off Topic' counteracts any potential or existing 'Good Answer' ratings, but 'Off Topic' isn't the rating I want to give. It isn't the rating that this type of answer deserves.

.

Q: Why isn't spent fuel put to better use?

A: Horrible Natural Disaster in the form of a huge earthquake with massive loss of life, complicated by the severe nuclear accident caused by the extreme severity of the earthquake and tsunami.

.

.

Are you suggesting that had the heat from the spent fuel been put to better use, the earthquake gods would not have been so enraged as to release such a violent earthquake in the vicinity?

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 4:58 PM

Hey, you can call it off topic, bad answer, whatever. While you are at it why don't you go off on the spelling bee folks or the terminology folks. I am dead on topic my friend. What to do with this stuff is the problem.

So, It was simply put out there as a reminder that we haven't figured out what to do with this crap and our current options are, well as Fuku illustrates clearly, not even close to adequate. Yeah, we're damned impressed with ourselves right up until mother nature or human nature reminds us of how inadequate we are to be playing with this stuff or the fact that we are playing with this stuff and haven't even solved all the problems yet.

It was offered as an illustration of just how vitally important Ron's question really is to our future.

Perhaps a bit of elaboration would have helped make that clearer, although I think if you remember the biggest concern they had was the spent fuel storage containment failure and subsequent loss of cooling water resulting in release of radiation into the environment and potential of nuclear fire.

I have yet to think of a good answer to the problem of what to do with a whole bucket load of unintended extememly hazardous waste from all sorts of industries not just nuclear. Dumping them in China is just our latest stupid solution.

Granted I like rail gunning it into the sun but..........

Any ideas are always welcome and a good discussion is one that covers the issues not the terminology because the stakes are incredibly high and we tend to minimize them or get distracted by the words until we have to deal with the worst case scenario flowing into our backyard. Then no one cares what you call it, we just want it fixed.

So far we have been lucky and that is all there is to it. Sooner or later luck runs out.

I hope that clears thing up a bit. Am having a day that does not leave a lot of room for detailed elaboration.

Sorry, social workers tend to think in human costs and terms. For us its not all academic, its personal.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 6:13 PM

Rashavarek: Looks like my answer should have elaborated a bit more--I was afraid of being too wordy! We do have a solution to the "waste" problem. It is a reactor that uses fast neutrons instead of thermal neutrons. This fast reactor will use as fuel the "waste" from the presently used thermal reactor plants. This "waste" will produce bunches of energy to benefit mankind. Please check out the many benefits of the fast nuclear reactor, aka IFR and PRISM reactors.

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#57
In reply to #55

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 6:15 PM

'... I am dead on topic my friend....'

.

That was exactly the reason for my lament over the lack of a 'Bad Answer' button.

The answer was not off topic.

The emotional bleat was aimed exactly at the topic, but to borrow a phrase from Wolfgang Pauli, "It is not only not right, it is not even wrong".

.

.

That said, the problem is not rectified in your follow up comment. Your complaint is more worded, but you offer no suggestion for an alternative. Complaining without a viable alternative is just whining.

.

Sorry, the impression I get from your comment is that social workers tend to think they are the only ones that think in human costs and terms. Regardless of how personal you rate your own comment, complaining without suggesting a viable alternative is the quintessence of the pejorative meaning of 'academic', i.e. speculative without being aware of the outside world. With the chiding you tossed in, it becomes clearly pedantic.

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#61
In reply to #57

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 12:13 PM

Funny, I thought railgunning the waste materials into the sun was a possible disposal solution. They are studying it at Max Planck but what do they know. I guess I was wrong.

As far as illustrating the failed ideas of the past, I stand behind the Fukushima example.

Keeping your waste in open swimming pools and hoping nothing bad happens is a proven fail of epic proportions.

BTW Fuku was supposedly earthquake proof built by folks with lots of earthquake and sunami experience but also a proven track record of supreme arrogance. There in lies the problem.

In the something to think about catagory. Most nuclear containment structures were designed before the first 747 flew. How well will they withstand the impact of a fully loaded Airbus 380?

If you can fly a plane into the most secure airspace on the planet and strike the pentagon how much trouble will they have hitting a reactor?

And of course we have just as much if not more security over our waste storage facilities right? Down wind of any?

As far as the waste itself, We've never lost any. We've never had transportation incidents. We've never had containment failures. Hell we can't do anything wrong it seems.

Or answer this question, How far away from (insert reactor or waste facilty) is (insert major metropolitian airport) and how much intercept time is there for a cover flight to take down a terror strike airliner? Provided you could get anyone to make that decision in time.

Lastly, with an education in human psychology comes the unpleasant realization that we are one of the most destructive forces on the planet. Second to none when it comes to our ability to destroy each other in ever more creative and spectacular ways. We are also second to none in our ability to deny just about anything we don't want to accept.

BBBLLLEEEETTTT

Now on to the Prism reactor concept. I am not that familiar with this so If this is a viable solution what's keeping it from being implemented? It's got to be better than lead lined 55 gallon drums and hardened casks or caves.

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 12:34 PM

BTW Fuku was supposedly earthquake proof built by folks with lots of earthquake and sunami experience but also a proven track record of supreme arrogance. There in lies the problem.

Anyone in engineering or has an engineering background knows that you can't win against Mother Nature. And they would never say that.

It's like saying the Titanic is unsinkable......

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#63
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Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 12:56 PM

Thanks for the stellar example of yet another time when our balls were bigger than our brains.

Like it or not, They said it was unsinkable. And believed it.

Like it or not they said it was earthquake proof. And believed it.

The list is long and storied.

One thing I have learned, degrees don't make you smart.

Letters behind your name don't make you right.

Neither Murphy nor Mother Nature is impressed.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 1:02 PM

One thing for sure, no one is trying to impress anyone here.

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#65
In reply to #61

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 1:27 PM

I still don't see your 'shoot it to the sun' fantasy as a viable or even helpful solution to what occurred at Fukushima.

.

I also don't see your 'shoot it to the sun' fantasy as a viable or helpful solution to the concerns you have about large airliners being kamakazied into reactors.

.

I do see your 'bleating' a good self-portrayal. Thank you for that part.

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 4:04 PM

We'll let the personal attacks slide and stick with the point.

I asked for some more info on the Prism / IFR reactors and why we are not moving forward on those.

I offered the rail gun solution as an alternative to on-world storage of something that will not cease to be a problem for a very long time.

As for the other things I have put out there, we can take that argument to a different section of the forum. Here, I'll even open the topic for those who want to go round that track. I'm an old Monty Python fan so its called "Is This The Right Room for an Argument?"

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#68
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Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/11/2013 9:37 PM

I asked for some more info on the Prism / IFR reactors and why we are not moving forward on those.

Info on PRISM/IFR might be considered off-topic in this thread. Why are we not moving? In the past politics was the main hindrance--40-50 years worth. I think it is starting to move again, but there is a lot of inertia from people like you who don't understand. The brand new movie Pandora's Promise, which I haven't seen yet, may help; at least the advance publicity makes it sound good. Also the book Plentiful Energy which I am just starting to read.

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#69
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Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/12/2013 1:27 PM

Lehman57 wrote:

but there is a lot of inertia from people like you who don't understand.

Ok, I am assuming you mean my concern about the possible misuse of some the plutonium. The thing that caused Pres. Carter to ban the reprocessing. The whole terrorist thing.

I am not in any way shape or form against trying something new. I am dead set against staying stuck in ways that have now been proven inadequate. That's been my whole contention. Lets do something different. I don't care if we make a mistake as long as its a new one.

I live in Wisconsin. We have a state motto here. "long before O-man or MSNBC borrowed it"

FORWARD

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/21/2013 11:37 AM

A new chemistry for reprocessing has been developed and proven; however, by my understanding, not on a commercial scale because research/development was shut down by Clinton in 1994. The new chemistry, pyroprocessing I think it is called, cannot separate out plutonium for use in weapons; instead the plutonium becomes part of the new fuel for use in generating electrical energy.

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#73
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Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/26/2013 4:15 AM

'....I offered the rail gun solution as an alternative to on-world storage of something that will not cease to be a problem for a very long time....'

.

A good thing to consider might be a comparison of the total number of failed space launches (and the dispersal of the cargo) as compared to the total number of nuclear terrorist acts.

.

The level of sophistication necessary to build and deliver anything above a dirty bomb wouldn't require an investment that doesn't make much sense for a terrorist organization. It certainly doesn't leverage the advantages a terrorist organization can have.

.

On the other hand, a dirty bomb doesn't even require nuclear waste. There are plenty of long lasting problematic substances that would be sufficiently 'dirty'.

.

There is no way you are going to be able to shoot all the dangerous stuff the sun or moon. If you intended to shoot just the most dangerous stuff, carpet knives, ammonium nitrate fertilizer and pressure cookers have been much more of a threat than nuclear material.

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#74
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Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/26/2013 10:56 AM

Shoot it to the sun...good idea,but let's do it at night,so there will not be a huge CME on our side of the sun when it impacts,that would send it right back at us!!

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#58

Re: Nuclear Reactor Cores Disposal or Re-use

06/10/2013 7:18 PM

Spent fuel rods as they come from the reactor still have to be cooled for many years, however they are not producting enough heat to have enough payback to make them a viable, profitable commodity.

They can be recycled and the recovered fuel is even better that it was the first time. Our (mine anyway) president Jimmy Carter put a presidential decree that the US would not recycle fuel. He was afraid that the small amount of plutonium would somehow be stolen and used to make a tarriest bomb.

Whole governments spend an enormous amount of money to try to do this with their own spend fuel rods, and often take years to (if ever) to make a bomb.

I would vote to recycle fuel rather than store if in concrete casts (barrels) that can be used to make a dirty bomb.

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