Need some advice on microcontrollers

If this is the extent of your project then go for a PIC.They are cheap I have used them many times in the past and they are easy to use. You can certainly get a C compiler to PIC assembly and I am am certain I have heard of basic interpreters for them. I have been out of this line for a while now but if its as simple as you say then send me an off forum message with more details and I will write the program for you!

Al

(former PIC fan)

I concur with the comment saying use a PIC. I am like you I have been an electronics guy my whole life but mostly analog. Last year I took a dive into the microcontroller world. My budget was low so I built my own programmer and bought some PIC chips. I used proton+ which lets you write code in basic. There is also pic basic which is very similar. It did take me a while to learn but it was worth it and it worked for my project. Because of the price there is a large user base of PIC chips so I was able to find lots of online help. I think with what I know now I could build your project with a PIC chip with minimal effort. I can't speak as to how easy the other microcontrollers are since I have only taught myself how to use a PIC so far.

As mentioned by the previous posts, PICs should do the job, but an alternative would be the Freescale (formerly Motorola) HC11 or HCS12. You can look up evaluation boards from www.evbplus.com, www.technologicalarts.com where you can get the IDEs in C and Assembly (if you are comfortable with it). They are easy to learn, and to incorporate into your electronics and since you mentioned motor control in your application, the HCS12 has 8 PWM channels which are straightforward to program.

All the best!

First off...thanks a bunch for the offer to write the code for me. But that is not gonna do ME any good. It will get the job done. But I will STILL be an idiot! hahaha

Seriously though....Thanks that was very nice.

During all of this research I have found SERVERAL other micros. Like the freescale stuff mentioned above.

There are alot of options out there. But are the PIC's and AVR stuff more "hobbie" oriented and the hc, 8051, arm etc.. more along the "professional" lines?

I am seriously starting to get confussed. Not only for my little project but from a long term career point of view. What is gonna look best on my resume? I can program PIC's or 8051....

Anyone got more advice?

bill12780

It doesn't much matter on a CV..If you can do one you can easilly migrate to others!

They all have their peculiarities and bugs (or at best inconsistencies....like decrement a byte will set the zero flag on zero...but decrementing a word doesn't!)

Your requirement is relatively simple, so I'd go on cost, availability, support and tools.

Have fun....

I have been part of the Microchip Developer Program since about 1994 and even i weren't I would recommend it for the project you describe. There are only 35 assembly level instructions, the development tools are free and you can get a programmer or build your own for not much money. They are easier to use than the 8051 derivatives if you are not already very experienced in those. There a a lot of variations in size and peripherals so as to make a good fit for lots of small projects. I use the ARM processors and love them but would not use them for your project nor would I recommend it as a "starter architecture". My philosophy is to pick the architecture that will get you from point A to B with the least amount of grief and minimum labor. Unless you are building millions of something your labor may be the best thing to minimize. I'm using a proprietary DSP architecture that runs 5 DSP cores doing 44MIPS from a 1.5V hearing aid battery at 1ma and it is really incredible but the projects that merit that kind of specialized device are few. Although I have not used the Atmel products, from what I can tell it would also be a good choice.

Hi,

At work they only use PICs as Tone-Generators for Fire-Alarms. And im glad you mentioned that you use it 'cos I read in the instruction booklet that it only requires thirty something commands to learn to program a PIC.

Can you help me also? I am trying ATMEL now but it's not easy, especially because im only using a laptop and that only has USB that is not suitable to hook up my training kit, it needs a printer port. What about the PIC. At work im using a PIC programmer for cloning but apparently it is quite costly. Is there something real cheap instead to use, for the moment i can use the one at work but maybe not for long.

regards,

steph

You can get the ICD2 programmer for about $150USD and it also works as a debugger. They also have an inexpensive programmer but there isn't much difference in price and there's not much reason to not use the In Circuit Programming feature of the flash parts.

Bill,

The only reason PIC's may be classed as a hobbyists choice is because they are so damn cheap. Some of the variant s are highly loaded. I know a vending machine company not a million miles from where I live and their entire range is based on PIC's

Al

I agree...sometimes I think companies prefer more complicated devices to justify the price of their product. Seeing a $3 16F88 running a $50 device is a bit disenheartening and makes most of us (who would be reading this post) simply say "I can make that for $5"...regardless of the amount of labor we'd end up putting into it.

I use Zilog...started with Z80, currently use Z86E08 and Z86733 old but predictable!

But PICs seem to be favourite, and are old enough to have the bugs published...as long as you can work out which of the 5,000 variants to use!

The important thing is the development tools!

How many of us have spent ages messing about with obscure linker options?

You need development tools with good working examples which run a development board to get you started.

Some tools can waste a week of your time before you are up and running...and then you still aren't sure how it all links!

Don't touch Hitachi with a barge pole...I spent a year developing a new product using their 'latest' chip which their rep' recomended...The project went on hold for a year due to personal reasons...when I came back the chip was 'Not recomended for new designs'.... So I will never use them again.

My recommendation is PIC from Microchip.I am NOT a electronics guy but am quite comfortable with PIC. It was easy enough to teach yourself. Their technical support is superb. I would put my last cent on this.

I'm another PIC supporter. Microchip makes tons of inexpensive PICs that suit your requirements. They even have application notes that show you how to do various things like motor control and keypad scanning. In addition, the IDE is free, development tools span the whole range from free to enterprise level, and so many people use them that there is almost immediate help available all over the internet.

Hi, Today microcontroller must not scare any one. If you know basic, try the oshonsoft PIC SUMULATOR IDE, Vladimir the name of the creator of this wondefull software has support for PIC's and ATMEL's, and for some oldies Z80, 8085, I have all compilers at a very affordable price. I'v using this for about 3 years and it makes me develop fast and accurate. This is the link http://www.oshonsoft.com/ Enjoy... Enrique Gonzalez.

Hi Bill,

There is only one choice for you. Pic Basic Pro from Melabs running any of the Microchip Pics. Melabs have a range of support tools such as Lab-X boards on which you can do your project development, and they have a number of Pic programmers, so you won't have to spend an arm and a leg either. Your learning curve should be super quick. The first thing you should do is download their User Manual and take a look at the Basic language set, this will take you less than 15minutes.

http://www.melabs.com

This compiler will enable you to get straight in using your background in Basic (which sounds similar to mine); I've been using this compiler for a long time now and is stable, and my business relies on it. The compiler is extremely nice and easy to use, and has a full set of capabilities for the family of Pic microcontrollers. You will not have to learn ANY assembly language instructions if you don't want to, as Pic Basic Pro is excellent in terms of code efficiency, speed... it is great!!! I never use assembly language and, for example my latest project has incorporated DSP sampling routines running easily at 6.4kHz x 10bits on an 18F4455 USB Pic running at a slow 4MHz (low power), and doing simple rectification, accumulation & checks within the sampling loop.

I use Microchip MPLab as the IDE development environment (free download from www.microchip.com ) and automatically embeds PicBasicPro for seamless compilations and program development. For debugging, I use the serial port to output variables.

For your motor control, you may want to run PWM (8 or 10bit) which you can easily access from PicBasicPro instructions directly.

It'll work, with a little work from you - no luck required!

( PS if you have been into BASIC and need a PC compiler to complement your PIC embedded environment, have a look at Liberty Basic www.libertybasic.com )

Neil

Hi Neil,

I know that this is a long time after the original post, but I was trying to find some info on PIC uCs, programmers and programming languages. I hope you are still there!

I am familiar with Basic and am leaning toward PICBasic. I have downloaded the demo and have found that my PICKit 2 won't work as a programmer (or will it - maybe there's something I just haven't seen yet). From everything I've seen, I will need a serial programmer OR one of the several programmers sold by Mecanique.

You said: I use Microchip MPLab as the IDE development environment (free download from www.microchip.com ) and automatically embeds PicBasicPro for seamless compilations and program development.

I have searched MPLab interface and help for a way to install/embed the PICBasicPro and have not found it. What's the secret?

I appreciate any help you can give me.

Mike

Hi Mike,

PBPro INSTALLATION:

I use PicBasicPro and have installed it from its original disk, and suggest you let it automatically install into the directory X:\PBP\*.*, and it will create further directories, FP, INC, SAMPLES, USB, USB18... etc.

MPLab INSTALLATION:

Separately, install MPLab, then from within MPLab you can tell MPLab where to find PicBasicPro by selecting from the [Project] menu tab, and then [Set Language Tool Locations].

PROJECT SET-UP:

Next, when you set up a project in MPLab, you can tell the [Project Wizard] to use MELabs PicBasicPro suite, and I normally use PBPW.EXE as the compiler.

ASSEMBLER SELECT:

For some of the smaller PICs I've found PBP assembler better than MPAsm, and for the bigger PICs, I've found MPAsm better to use. You can select these assembler options from [Project]:[Buld Options]:[Project], [PicBasic Pro] and tick which assembler you want.

PROGRAMMER:

When it comes to programmers, I use MELabs serial programmer, which I've found extremely good, and easy to use. The MELabs programmer software is invoked outside of MPLab. Get a couple of ZIF sockets if you are using DIL chips (Pics); otherwise follow the ICSP (in circuit serial programming) designs that you can find on MELabs website, then you know the designs MUST work with MELabs programmer.

DEBUGGING:

When it comes to debugging, I like to use the serial port to output HSEROUT [xxxx] print statements. These are printed to another computer (or the same one if you have a second RS232 port), running MS Hyperterm. I've found that by careful placements of HSEROUT statements, you can debug most problems.

Wish you success, kind regards,

Neil

Hi NeilJ,

I was going back over some stuff to try to learn some more. I don't know why I didn't get this reply from you, but it is of great help. I'm giving you a 1 for good answer.

Many Thanks,

Mike

Hello Mike,

Thanks a lot for that... one further little hitch that has caught me a couple of times when I've changed computer environments (computer upgrade); you must remember to tell MPLAB and PBP the paths of where to find the files. There are instructions of how to do this on MELabs website.

I was rather intrigued by your avitar, and looked at your profile to find you are a musician of note! great stuff.

Since we were active on this thread, a lot has happened on Liberty BASIC side... If you ever have the need for web based, or network based programming using tools with which we are most comfortable (BASIC), then take a look at www.runbasic.com. This is an extremely innovative software product that was recently made available at very reasonable pricing. [with this you no longer need to mess with Apache, PHP, SQL etc...]

Kind regards, Neil

If you are looking for a full-scale controller, ready to run right out of the box, I would suggest the SPLAT line of microcons. 8 Inputs and 8 outputs standard and only 14 instructions in the 'fast-track' instruction set which will handle 90% of applications. Instructions like;

on 1 -- turns on the device connected to output pin 1(relay, solenoid etc)

waiton 3 ---wait for the input switch connected to pin 3 to turn on.

Nothing could be simpler. Goto www.splatco.com and take the techie tour. See for yourself.

Try using Intel MCs51/52 varients as they are available from various manufacturers like atmel, phillips,analogue devices,Dallas Semi and many more ranging from 20 pins to 68 pin.

Programming is better done in c than assembly as time to market is reduce if you use C language.Also you can insert assembly instruction in c if required for fine tuning and timing constrains.Code changes and testing will be faster and less skilled job as compared to assembly.Part of code can be used in other projects.

As far as Development tools are concern there are Open source and propriotory.Based on budget you may opt for Developmet tools.

Open source tools like SDCC is free and generates hex file from C source.There are librararies and sample code .

There are flash processors which can be programmed in system whithout removing them from socket like DS89C4x0,ADUc8xx,AT89C51RDx etc. you just need RS232 converter like MAX232. Software for these processors are available from respective manufacturer.

Bharat

I prefer PICs combined with the programming and development software from www.mikroe.com They have something called "Microbasic" which lets you program in basic and it cross-compiles into assembly.

I also get most of my PICs for testing from sample.microchip.com You can get up to about 10 devices sent for developmental purposes.

Do you or Anyone know if the the mikroe pic4 board and software is compatiable with the Pic Basic Pro compiler?

This board is obviously more bang for the buck then the MElabs dev boards. But I already own PBP compiler.

Any ideas on this?

Thanks again,

Bill12780

I don't know about the Pic Basic Pro...

What I do is use the mikroe software to compile the program into assembly and HEX (machine) code. I then us MPLAB (free from the microchip website) to burn/write the hex files to the chip using my picstart+ programmer. A bit of a pain having to jump back/forth between programs but both do their job well and I didn't want to have to buy another programmer or dev board.

Oh ya...FYI: the mikroe programs are free for small projects. You can compile programs up to 2000 lines of machine code (a LOT for most little DIY things) before you have to buy the software to get past this hurdle. With 2000 lines (combined with some bad programming practices) I've made a 8 channel servo controller, GPS interface, motor controller... Just grab a small collection of the basics and you're off to the races:

• your compiler and programmer of choice (mikroe/mplab & picstart+)
  
• a breadboard, (don't bother soldering the prototypes...)
• a 7805 voltage regulator (to give you a nice solid 5V supply for the circuit)
• a handful of LEDs and 400Ohm resistors (so they don't burn out),
• a bunch of 4.7 or 5.1KOhm resistors for pull-up & pull-downs
• some push buttons of some sort (for digital on/off inputs)
• a DIP package variable potentiometer (for analog input)
  
• 22 gauge solid core wire for jumpers
• A few 16F88 DIP micro controllers (about $3 each or free from sample.microchip.com if this is business related)

Good luck!

In your quest to program a microcontroller I would say that it's easier than it looks. Don't get discouraged!

When I started programming the picmicrocontrollers I dove in head first because at one time I felt like you. I was tired of programming on a basic level and I wanted swim with the big fish.

I purchased a PIC Microcontroller kit because I didn't want the hassel of running code and suspecting that the code didn't work due to a programmer I built. Eventhough I have a BS in electronics, I didn't want this to consume the time I needed to learn to program on this level.

I chose to program in assembly instead of C because I felt that if I was ever hired by a TOY Company (hint), I would be flexible in both programming languages.

I purchased a few chips (pic12f683; pic16f84a) and never looked back. These chips only have 32 instructions to learn and once you learn the basic structure of the chip, everything else is down hill.

You should purchase a bread board to make life simpler and find yourself some projects on the internet to build and research the manipulation the code to determine why things do what they do.

The true test is, How Bad do You Want It!?

Good Luck

Hello gentlemen, (And Ladies possibly too)

All I can say is WOW! and Thank you. Lots of good information, advise and general knowledge.

I can not tell all how much I appreciate all your help...But here is my problem. I asked this basic same question on "another" Engineering type forum and now I am totally inudated with information to go through.

So Give me a day or two and I will get back with you all and let you know what I decieded to do. I will tell you I am leaning towards the PIC. Not only because I already own the PBP compiler (really old version but I can upgrade cheaply). But because of my background in basic programing and the it seems like everyone says start here and migrate to assembly (which I am not completely illerterate on) and "C" latter.

I did buy a "teach yourself "c" in 21 days" SAMS book over the weekend and look forward to messing with that.

One of the posters said it best. I think that figuring out what pic to use now is the challenge cause there are like 500 different ones to choose from. hahaha!

Thanks again for all you guyses help. One day I hope I can return the favor in an area I have enough knowlege about to be helpfull. The problem with this is that the bar is pretty high here at CR4. I am not sure I measure up anywere! I am kinda a "Jack of all trades and a master of none"

I will post in a day or two...

Thanks again!

Bill12780

Go to the Microchip website and use their parts search feature. You can select the criteria that is most important and then view the parts that fall into that category. It makes it pretty straightforward to make a good selection. Then check say DigiKey to make sure you can get the part you selected in the package you desire and so on.

Hello all!

Again, I can not thank you all enough for the all the information, opinions, experience etc.. Its really helped me to make some (What I think are) good decisions.

What I have done is gone with Pic Basic Pro as a compiler Because I got the latest upgrade for 10 bucks! (I had the Flintstones version already) I went with the mikroe.com easy PIC4 Dev board I think its the best bang for the buck because it a programmer built in AND works with almost ALL PIC chips regardless of pin count. Finally, I have decided to work with the PIC16F876 It has all the features I need and then some and the there is a 8k version that is pin for pin compatible if I need more then 4K.

I will let everyone know how this little project holds up.

OR

I will be posting for more help! hahaha!

Thanks again to all that responded!

Best regards to all of you and yours!

Bill McFarland