the only visible evidence of such technology appears in Hollywood film fantasies such as Avatar.

Everything starts as fiction before it becomes reality. How interesting would it be if one went to a science fiction movie and you see stone wheel, or maybe fire or maybe a hot air balloon.

One of the alien movie where they had Sourgrney Weaver operated mechanized exosuits (actually Caterpillar Power Loaders P-5000^[2]) are used in loading cargo for spaceships.

There is more going on with exoskeletons than what we have seen in the movies.

We have discussed them as far back as when I first came onto the forum in 2007.

In fact I initiated questions about them back then, that may well come up if you check into the Search all of CR4 box.

The US and DARPA have been working on them for primarily Military purposes.

Think theirs is called a Bleep, or something like that.

Best I've seen is the HAL, made in Japan. As of last year it was available for lease at 1000 bucks a month, and came with a maintenance contract.

For civilian usage in the workplace they will eventually find usage in material handling and fill the gap between forklifts, and unassisted humans for heavy lifting, such as the last stage of sheetrock delivery.

There is more going on with exoskeletons than what we have seen in the movies.

I recall that. There was a article about reactive personal armour here on CR4. But did not do the research.

I just thought that I would address some of the sci-fi stuff. ie it would not be sci fi if it were everyday items.

Over the years Sci Fi and reality have pretty much merged to the point I have trouble reading Sci Fi.

One of my favorite real events illustrating how far things have come, was when the Soviet Union Collapsed, and those on Mir where not sure what to do when Cosmonauts in different uniforms showed up to relieve them.

A story worthy of Heinlein, or Sturgeon. It's like you can hardly make some of this stuff up anymore.

Truly I'm shocked Clark Forklifts, or one of those companies that offers forklifts not yet offers exoskeletons for material handling applications.

After I started college, I quit reading, sci-fi because of the blur between the two. except sci-fi written by scientists had a spin or twist to it for literature purpose. i.e., I had to ask myself, did that come out of a textbook, or sci-fi.

Truly I'm shocked Clark Forklifts, or one of those companies that offers forklifts not yet offers exoskeletons for material handling applications.

We are actually working towards that, but it doesn't come over night. Such as the gyros, programming and safety features that would come with it, we are taking baby steps, and to do that we have to crawl first. The Segway is a good example of accomplishing this.

p911

I can't help having doubts about the feasibility of military, or at least, combat applications for these exoskeletons. The potential for sabotage is pretty obvious. If the exo has any wireless control functions, it can be hacked. Anything can be hacked, apparently.

It would be like wearing a weapon the enemy can use against you.

Useful applications for amplifying human muscle functions? Okay, maybe the exo-human-forklift idea is practical for warehouse work. But not much advantage over a conventional forklift and operator.

Other than that, unless you are suffering from a muscle-wasting disease, the amplitude and coordination of the muscles is optimized as it is, controlled by your own brain, which can handle the complexity, and suited to your size. A well-trained human has the advantage over a clumsy machine, even if it has more brute force.

If there wasn't a significant problem with coordination and command for the exoskeleton, I would expect gear of this kind to be having more widespread application already for people with mobility disorders.

Maybe the exoskeleton will one day be practical and economical enough for widespread use - on the moon or mars.

from dust devil. I suffer from such a muscle wasting disease and have often thought of such devices which would not have to be massive as these loading devices. Just small small swiveling devices strong enough to hold up the human frame. balance can be maintained by the operator.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Guest, that small swivelling devices and support which are operator controlled would be a more useful approach for overcoming disability. Once you get into amplification of muscle signals it's a whole other ball game. There's a fair bit of implanted neural device research on this (as opposed to the exoskeleton approach) and afaik it has not produced anything useable either.

Muscle anatomy seems simple and intuitive when you're in perfect health. Only when we have an injury, we discover how complex the relationship is between small muscles that hardly seem important until they are hurt.

To amplify muscle signals in a coordinated and useful way, you would have to recruit neurons from all of the small muscles that contribute to the movement. That is a hugely complex task

I think neuroscientists fooled themselves when they did that first experiment on anaesthetized cats. They thought they were recruiting the muscles to walk that cat around by remote control. In fact, they recruited the cooperation of the cat's brain, which was functional in its coordination of complex and adaptive muscle movements. These results are not transferable to a non-cooperative subject, which can be disabled but not controlled, and the technique has not been successful to help the disabled either. (again, afaik.)

Cyborg beetles are a different matter - mammalian muscle and neural structure is completely different and far more complex. The beetle is a better analogy for the exoskeleton approach. But of course, there's no vertebrate inside...

Actually the exoskeleton has greater advantages outside the warehouse setting, or on the factory floor.

One particular potential application is in the final stage of sheetrock delivery where often what is done is a fork boom truck lifts the sheetrock to be carried by men into the interior of the building.

It is very hard on the back, elbows and knees of men, as sheetrock is right heavy.

Years ago now a gentleman told me that the work produces something like 70 percent disability.

Such exoskeletons would also alleviate body stresses associated with brick and block laying.

The gentleman at Liberty Mutual went on to say that due to disability payments incurred those companies that might utilize something like the HAL, for this sort of work, would likely have their insurance premium payments reduced.

As far as military applications I suspect first common applications would be for artillery crews, as the ammunition for cannons is also right heavy and artillery is typically not in the front lines.

Fair enough - I've never worked these jobs, but I've carried enough sheetrock to know what you're talking about. (and that's a shocking rate of disability! It would certainly make it worth the investment in gear) So the applications are there - but do we have the necessary coordination in the exoskeleton gear? Don't forget the movie (which I haven't seen yet) is done by animation. (Some technique similar to Beowolf, afaict). How good is the Tokyo suit?

As I recall, a big part of the problem with sheetrock is not the weight itself, it's the balancing act required (okay, anyone else here find their arms too short for sheetrock? ) When the sheet gets tippy, that's where you'd get the injury to your back. I think my elbows took a few bangs in the bargain.

Actually I wonder if a simple pair of "extensor arms" would be just as good or better, for big sheets of heavy stuff? Not for a big guy, I guess.

What do you think, Transcendian, are they close to having a workable prototype outside of the movies?

Pretty damn close, if not done. Not had my hands on one.

The gentleman (Mr. Clock) at Liberty Mutual indicated that many of the sheetrock delivery companies hired off book cash Mexicans to avoid liability coverage.

My notes list http://www.sakakibrara-kikai.co.jp. for the HAL. Reports say it is good for 60 Kilograms. - or what I think of as 120 pounds. Suggest you just google HAL.

It is on the Forum from years past now.

The DARPA thing is called a BLEEX.

The BLEEX is so far unsuitable unless it has been more refined and reduced in size, for some of the point of an exoskeleton is to be able to go where something like a forklift, or a Lull, can't.

I actually did work for a few days delivering sheetrock. They offered me 50 grand a year to keep doing it. I said, "I'm not strong enough for this, and won't ever be."

250 pound 20 year old guy football player said the same thing.

As of a year and a half ago, when last I attempted to get a sheetrocker to go for the lease on a HAL, it was being offered at a grand a month.

I have not checked on what was happening with it since.

Plus, I have not gotten an opportunity to try one out in the applications I have most in mind for it.

even more importantly, they could be used to build Transcendia airports/spaceports around the world/solar system. For low-g work on the moon, you culd really get a lot of work done, plus incorporate a spacesuit/water/air/waste system.

Okay, now I've had a look at HAL and read how it works. The suit reads your neural signals in motion and activates machines to do the extra work.

In the You Tube video, I see the guy mostly just walking around in the suit. But a bit disappointed not to see some footage of the HAL in action, doing the 5X stuff except for a couple of demos at the end. Also some footage from past efforts - yep that is a serious coordination problem alright! This prototype is obviously much better. Unless he had it turned off while walking around.. You can see it better in this video, again it's walking and holding a heavy load. There is no video of augmented complex motion but hey... they've definitely made some progress.

They say it's intended to be used in a medical context, which is encouraging. And they are building ten to rent out, so they do consider it a working prototype of this "wearable robot".

It's pretty cool.

In a word, YES, they will.

another word? Heinlein. (Starship Troopers - the book, not the crappy movie, and also Waldo Inc.)

Chris

Don't forget Tony Stark and Ironman!

These are already in limited use to reduce operator fatigue on assembly lines.

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/technology/rtn08_exoskeleton/

Sarcos is a local robotics shop purchased by Raytheon that I've tried to get hired by a couple times over the years. They demoed their DARPA-funded exoskeleton about two years ago. Force feedback is always a major issue, so you can pick up the proverbial brick-and-egg combination. The other last biggest technical roadblock they were tackling was time lag between muscle and machine movement. It took a little practice by the operator to overcome.

good insight with the muscle/machine response.

But don't you think eventually this will be overcome.......

I know, only to present another obstacle to overcome. But it should come.

I was also looking at if something failed and the operator was still......strapped inside.

could be like a program cliche. the response time to hit the kill switch before the operator gets hurt or worse yet, a structural failure.

Having designed many of the systems that went into this model, I can tell you that response lag is on the order of milliseconds and not a significant issue. The suit responds so quickly that you barely feel the resistance as you move.

The major hurdles when last I worked on it involved power, specifically how to operate it without a tether to a hydraulic power supply for any length of time.

The suit functions very smoothly and there are several videos out there on the web. I encourage you to look them up.

Lynn, if you can get on there, it is a wonderful place to work.

your query applies to robotics versus control systems also.

I'll take a shot at it though... An Exoskeleton is:

• "An independently powered system that mimics the motion of the motivating entity, contained within it's performance envelope, and amplifying the spatial efforts of the motivating entity, producing more work than the motivating entity could produce without said system."

therefore, an aircraft or vehicle is not an exoskeleton, nor is any form of 'smart' prosthetic.

whatcha think?

Chris

"that mimics the motion of the motivating entity,"

thats the part that makes the difference.

Thanks for that.

Exoskeletons may be better for zero gravity areas of work, deep sea and space, until such time that we can overcome the stability issues.

we could add more about tools, manipulators, etc. being 'including but not limited to..." type of line.

when I took my robotics course, and then went to work in industry, it became apparent that there is technologically little difference between 'automation' and robotics.. These days most RC things are called robotic, where I was taught that robots were autonomous decision makers. a fine line though, especially in automation.

robotics and exoskeleton research may seem like small business, but the automation industry is billions of dollars. When the market sees the need for robotics and exoskeletons, then that market will blossom.

Chris