Mandatory Safety Devices

You could say the same thing about vehicle safety. When was the last time someone from Detroit asked you if you wanted airbags or seat belts or 5mph bumpers. Someone else made the decision for you under the assumption that it was for your own good and raised the price of the vehicle.

Well, to some degree it is consumer driven. Some manufactures promote safety as the important selling point and the market responds accordingly.

Porsche tends to lead the way with this type of innovation. They were one of the first cars to have dual airbags standard in 1987-88 and continue to add more and more safety features. Volvo has always been building cars with safety as one of the primary selling features.

I think the general market is more safety conscious today then the have been in the past.

You could say the same thing about vehicle safety. When was the last time someone from Detroit asked you if you wanted airbags or seat belts or 5mph bumpers. Someone else made the decision for you under the assumption that it was for your own good and raised the price of the vehicle.

Some of the safety feature are good and saves lives, one person comes to mind that was ahead of his time and implemented safety not only for safety sake but also an edge on the competetion, was Preston Tucker.

This goes with another blog about visionary engineers......he may not have been a visionary engineer but a visionary business man which is not a good combination.

p911

You can't legislate responsibility, but you can educate people to act responsibly. In this case, a few people are trying to litigate it. Of course, it's really all about money.

The inventor of SawStop is an attorney and, after failing to get most saw manufacturers to license his technology, he is trying to use the court system to force them to adopt it.

Hello Usbport.

I must admit I fairly bristled at your comment "The inventor of SawStop is an attorney and, after failing to get most saw manufacturers to license his technology, he is trying to use the court system to force them to adopt it." However, after reading through the last part of the article again, (Steve Gass, the inventor, is a patent attorney) I can understand that position. I like to believe that people or manufacturers with new safety devices are truly making an effort to improve the overall performance of the tool. But <sigh>, as you say "Of course, it's really all about money." It usually is.

In another vein, the last door shop I worked at was a subsidiary of a very large holding company. All table saws within the organization (44 or so locations, about 100 saws) were mandated by our corporate leaders to install a SawStop or replace existing machines with new, having the SawStop as standard feature. As I understand, this reduced lost time (and finger) woodshop incidents significantly, and came with a reduction in our Workman's Comp rate! So, it does work and is well worth the $100 or so.

No machine is unsafe, only the operator.

We don't need more safeties installed, we need more common sense in the operators.

I have been in the tool and die trade for more than 40 years and I still have the same 10 that I was born with. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I attribute this to the safety disciplines that I was taught coming up through the trade. Back then machine tools were far more dangerous and unforgiving.

Consider the full revolution, mechanical clutch punch press. When you heard the clutch dog engage it was too late! Today use of this type of press is not allowed in the US. Virtually all presses in use now have a clutch-brake systems and light curtains that can stop the press rotation in milliseconds if you should put your body in danger. This technology has saved countless fingers and lives. As effective as these devices might be, the discipline that I learned keeps me from putting any part of my body inside the "die space" until the motor is turned off and the flywheel has come to a complete stop

However, no matter how well trained and disciplined you are, it only takes a moment of inattention for an accident to happen. I have been bitten by machines more than once. Nothing serious, just a reminder to pay attention to what I am doing.

Personally, I welcome any technology that can make my workplace and home safer. Should it be mandated? In the workplace, yes, if it has been proven to be effective. But nothing can replace the training and discipline necessary to safely use machine tools.

I certainly looked seriously at buying a Sawstop machine.

I live and work in a humid environment, often cut green timber and it was way outside what I could afford for a hobby.

What I'm doing instead is constantly updating my knowledge of jigs and fixtures to keep my fingers and the fingers of anyone else who may be permitted to use the machines completely away from cutting tools, chucks, swarf and other hazards. My other machines would not have saw stop, only the table saw. The technology isn't too bad on paper, but I feel it has a way to go before becoming practical and that practicality will most likely come from a competitor who is prepared to see the downside issues.

Braking systems are a good idea, despite being often difficult to fit.

The system is not retrofittable nor adaptable. Better, more flexible and less destructive technology needs to be developed, providing patents don't hold up progress.

The saw stop in question is sensitive to green wood and moisture causing unneeded shutdowns.

As a machine operator I have to train myself to check the operations and allways consider the results of doing silly things, it is a practice that must be considered every day and is the best insurance against being damaged.

The SawStops that were purchased for our woodshop about 8 or 9 years ago was a 'one-shot' deal. That is to say it was good for one stop cycle, damaging the blade and itself so severely it needed to be replaced after a blade stop.

Does anyone know if this is still the case with current versions?

I don't think the original design has been changed, the whole thing self destructs.

It is possible there is another way to do it I have thought of something but it would need testing and would probably be more expensive.

The inventor (supposedly - he may have bought the knowledge) - who is a lawyer - wants the use of his device mandated for use on power saws. He then wants to collect 8% of the wholesale price on each saw sold as a royalty. Because of the way the patent is written it would be difficult to develop a different device to do the same function.

He will use the courts to penalize saw manufacturers for accidents by playing ambulance chaser to try to force them into the position that he wants.

If he wants to donate the patent to the betterment of mankind - that is one thing.

This guy is the kind of person that gives lawyers a bad name - bottom feeding scum!

Joke.

Whatv is it if you have 200 lawyers, chained together, drowned, on the ocean floor, 50 foot underwater?

A damn good start!!

As already mentioned, there needs to be a unit that can be fitted to most saws, costs hopefully less than $100, that can be done/attached in a DIY fashion......

I do not see most people throwing out a good working saw just to get one from him!!! Its simply against human nature.

Someone once asked me why I prefer Patent Agents over Patent Attorneys. This is a good example why Patent Agents are better. They have all the authority to handle a patent before the USPTO that the Patent Attorney has BUT they are not attorneys so they can not sue people.

A Patent Agent's motivation is to get a good solid patent for those who they are representing where I believe many Patent Attorneys are hoping to get involved in litigation so they can make the BIG bucks.

One Patent Attorney even told me the litigation side is the "interesting" part of patents.

If only the current political situation would let employers give people an iq test before starting work somewhere.

Our population will one day destroy itself because the Darwinian concept"survival of the fittest" no longer applies to mankind, in the US, anyway.

The dumber,slower members of a species are SUPPOSED to merrily and haphazardly kill themselves off.

This is why most sperm banks and invitro fertilization clinics pay good money for intelegent donors, and wont even talk to those with "low" iq's

No one will pay money to intentionally bring a "stupid" person into being.

Why should we have to pay extra for idiot proof tools.

Injury is an educational process.

I am in the tree care industry, have been for over 20 yrs, and have never had to go to the doctor or hospital from a work related injury. And it aint luck. Luck would have run out years ago.

I am one of the nuts you see 80 feet up in a tree, hanging on a 1/2 inch rope. Chainsaw screaming wide open, modified beyond osha limits, and use chains that are clearly marked" does not comply with" ansi, osha, etc.

If you cut a $150 climbing rope, you need to be on the ground anyway.

The saw i started out with was the old poulan s25, with no chain brake, no wristguard, and the only safety feature was the off switch. Which would do one of 3 things when you flipped it to off. 1.turn off the saw 2 nothing, or 3, shock the heck out of you,lol. And you never really knew which.

All this new mandatory safety crap is bs, designed to make lawyers money, and cost consumers money.

I recently worked on Ft. Knox, ACTUS, a worldwide construction company has the contract there. Normally, anyone working more than 5 feet off the ground has to have about an hour long safety breifing before starting work.

Several of us tree climber types came in one morning for our class.

The safety instructor informed us that normally actus does not do tree related work. They said, since you are all here,as opposed to dead or disabled, you obviously know what you are doing. Please keep in mind that if you get hurt, you must first pass a drug test in order to sue us or expect us to pay for any injuries. Have a good day, and be safe. End of safety briefing.

Instead, the general population gets dumber every year.

"If only the current political situation would let employers give people an iq test before starting work somewhere."

Wouldn't be fair to require a potential employee to pass a test that the employers and politicians couldn't pass.

yea, i wont be happy untill any congressional or house bill only deals with one subject, is less than 50 pages long, and ever one voting on it has to read it and pass a test on the proposed lesislation before being allowed to vote

You cannot mandate responsibility. With that said, If I was in charge of a vocational school I would certainly want these items on the saws. In an industrial setting if the company could get reduced insurance rates, once again I would want these items. However, I've got a 12" radial arm saw in my workshop. My father bought this tool in the late '50s. It has never drawn any blood. This device would have changed nothing but the price of the tool.

What's worse, after reading some of the other posts, it seems as though the inventor of this device is trying to force people to pay for a device whether they want it or not and receive royalties from the tool company for using it! That's something I just can't agree with.

So I guess that my answer is no. I'm not in favor of this device being forced on anyone.

As my 9 fingered shop teacher said, "You only need to loose one before the rest learn to stay out of the way!"

Not always true...

While demonstrating how he lost the top of one finger in a big Cincinatti miller, my teacher in the RN cut another finger tip off.

When he got back from hospital a few days later, we told him that he could only give that course only another 6 times......he was not amused......

Could be!!!

My theory was that he was so good and exact in his spoken lectures, he concentrated too much on the talking and not enough on the "doing". Like people driving a car and using a phone cause more accidents.....

He was a great Guy, I liked his lectures and I learnt a lot!!

My Grammar school woodwork teacher was very similar, he had already lost one fingertip before I was ever taught by him and he also lost another while teaching, not my class of the time though.....the exact circumstances I do not remember, but possibly similar....

A work colleague some years ago also has a Hotel in the Black forest region. He has/had an old handyman who managed to cut off the end of his thumb and most of his forefinger with a chainsaw. (Left hand)

A few years later, using the same saw, he cut off the end of his LH middle finger! If the thumb and the forefinger had still been present, they would have been removed in this second accident!!! But as they were already gone, no problem!!

He was immensely proud that having refused after the first accident to have the "bits" resown on, he had spared himself 2 /3rds of the pain in the second accident!!!

Its really true, and how could I make it up, impossible!!!

Years ago an old girlfriends dad told me about a coworker he had in his younger days when he worked at a fabrication shop.

This guy thought it was real funny to fold a finger back inside his glove and when a new worker was near he would scream as he crushed the empty glove finger off between the press head and table on the 200 ton press he ran. Funny as all hell for everyone who knew what he was doing but it always scared the crap out of the new guy.

Well it was funny until the dumb ass did it with the wrong hand once and actually did crush one of his own fingers off.

Then it was a even funnier!

Shop teachers.

We had a shop teacher that also authored alot of router applications that was sold at Sears.

When I was a freshman, he scolded myself and his son for using a powered hand planer without writing up the safety rules first on the tool. He grabbed the planer and as he held the power hand planer and was scolding and shaking it at us he accidentally turned it on, and got his shop coat wrapped up in it.

Quite an exclamation point about safety to a couple of foolish kids. Yes we laugh....and I received a D+. I guess I never should have put him in that situation.

p911

I stuck my thumb in one about 10 years ago. The hole has since filled out and looks almost the same as it did before. The nail grows normally, but the feeling on the rh side of the left thumb is still not right, probably never will be.....

I was holding a wood spacer that I was thinning down and I lost my grip on it. Totally stupid and totally my fault!

I was lucky to get almost away with it.

I also lecture on safety, but forget to take my own advice sometimes......

On one hand I am all for using technology to make the workplace/hobby safer. No matter how careful you are and how much you try to control your workplace there is always the danger of someone walking up behind you, a really big "BANG" nearby, etc. and that could cause you to make a mistake.

But, on the other hand the SawStop page http://www.sawstop.com/company/legal.php lists 39 patents (ok, only 35 are US) with others pending. To legally force everyone to use this product and force everyone to pay unregulated and uncontrolled royalties on 35 patents would be a nightmare.

I do like the safety part of the saw stop idea, but the last time I checked the flow of current required a complete circuit. If your finger will trip the safety circuits then there must be current flowing from the safety circuits to your finger. The saw blade must be part of the safety circuit and current flow from your finger to the saw blade trips the circuit. I sense some fine print. If I am standing on the floor with rubber soled shoes then how is this safety circuit connected to my finger? Does the safety circuit only work if I have my other hand touching the saw's table?

Is there a guarantee that they will save my finger or just a guarantee that they will put my picture on their web site if my finger is saved?

You make some valid points.....

I guess they hope that you are touching the saw table at the very least....

After reading the earlier round of responses I've been thinking about this one for a few days.

I am one of the users who will pay for better safety equipment, but I didn't take this one up for reasons I've already listed.

What struck me recently is the unlikelihood of the item actually working to protect the "Power User" who makes a mistake. Dry skin before the surface is cut can have a resistance of about 1Meg, yes the first nick will change that dramatically. More importantly quality workboots have high insulation values and anti-fatique matting also isolates the operator from the frame further. One of the first things done to tune a new Saw Bench is to install a zero clearance insert from plywood, plastic or similar usually insulating material. Jigs that one uses are made of dry wood, plastic etc. All in all the likelihood of completing the required circuit is quite low as there is no need to touch any part of the frame or any grounded material to operate the machine.

Greater safety is to be found in making your push sticks and jigs to prevent contact with the blade completely. Stop blocks and guard blocks provide barricading to prevent contact. Two of the best texts I've read on this subject are ISBN 1-56158-073-2 Workshop Jigs and Fixtures by Sandor Nagyszalanczy and ISBN 0-8069-5540-6 Table Saw Techniques by Roger Cliffe.

In the hierarchy of controls this device looks like an engineering solution, but in fact it is only PPE and we all know PPE is the least desirable control.

I believe in some discussions with tool company's and legal representations to government departments, they did admit it was not 100% foolproof under certain circumstances [ no information given ] an operator could still be vunerable.

Then again there is never anything 100% foolproof

It is a good idea never the less and would be a good implementation for schools an training centers so long as it did not give a false sense of security ie, boys will be boys.