Teaching Tech: Quality or Quantity?

I think that most 'qualified' teachers in the us are good by US standards and better by international standards, given the quality of our school systems. So, I would say just more science teachers. We also have alot of great Mechanical Contractors out there!

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I can see why you posted as guest!

Lots of good mechanical contractors, some not so good and some shysters thrown in.

Teachers that understand teaching and how to create interest are always needed. There are far too few of this type.

Milo comes to mind - I expect he has little problem keeping his students attention.

The union loving, tenure loving type should be shown the door.

The school systems should understand that troublemakers need to go to a different school - the kind with bars on doors and windows.

If you don't put teachers in dangerous environments many would be a lot happier.

Thank you Kevinm for the kind support words to my post. In fact as an uninterested student, I was literally longing for a teacher with the qualities few of those I had mentioned.

I could see most of them concerned about their delivery[ of course not at all what the other end had grasped] alone just for the sake of lecture completion.

Secondly they had a mind set on top class students and allot marks just for their names and focus interactions only to the so called creams and not to the middle class or uninterested students.

The net result was only memories on their mannerisms and nothing related to any value.

Leaving about 50 percent for the serious subject matter of the planned lecture- rest of the 50 percent should be spent for face to face interaction, teacher to student, student to student discussion, cheering with cracks of jokes, life values, motivation, a personal touch with one and all, a guidance for future etc.

The net result should be the students never felt that the hour had passed away so fast, bright faces with energy, hopes and confidence

GA s.udahayamarthandan. I give you a GA for stressing continuous learning as well as describing a good teacher.

I am sure most of the teachers come from an arts background of learning rather than the technical side. Most of the arts career paths tend to force these graduates into teaching. Whereas, the technical grad will find a host of fields to work. It is good to encourage technical people to get into the teaching profession along with the arts teachers. The teaching of science and technology should begin at a very early age so the student can find his own way; exposure works wonders. Like s.udahayamarthandan states, the schools need to encourage continuous learning. That means giving access to themselves and to libraries of technical knowledge.These libraries should include everyone not just teachers or physical libraries. I am sure we all have a wealth of knowledge to share. What better reason to participate in CR4 than to share knowledge? Learning must be a life experience not just confined to the formal education years.

Science subjects like physics and chemistry[ mathematics a needful blend of course] form the very basis of all our engineering and technology developments and physics bear the prime importance for most of the engineering like mechanical, electrical, electronics, civil, aviation etc.

Whereas basic sciences deal the subject in a theoretical perspective, it would be more apt to have importance on applied sciences in physics, chemistry etc typically for the engineering as well as science courses. As a pre requisite a basic science teacher should be motivated to do P.G in applied science as well, the net result being better science teachers who can teach science with true relevance and provoke enthusiasm to the students on value of sciences.

Why is this an issue for the "White House"? Where in the Constitution (read the Constitution for clarification, don't take my word for it) does it say that the Federal Government is to be involved with education?

Side questions other than the legitimacy question are; who is supposed to pay for this, where do these 10,000 teachers come form in 2 years, if we "continue to fall behind other nations in science and technology leadership" it is a result of the failing process that is already in place with our educational system, so what needs to change?

The answer for this "falling behind" is a complete revamping of our educational system which would be a monumental task because it would take power away from politicians; federal, state and local, and give it back to the parents who are the ones ultimately responsible for the education of their kids. It's called free enterprise and competition.

I also understand there are many more political and economic factors that come into play which compound the "fixing" task. There are many spokes to this wheel that have to be in proper place and tension in order for the education wheel to work properly.

I cannot tell you what the involvement of the US federal government is or should be with regard to education. I believe the reason for the statement is from the report by the college board to achieve a 55% of the population graduate from college by 2025. The US is currently at 40.3 % and trails Russia at 54%, Canada at 48.3%, Israel at 43.6% and New Zealand and Japan at 41%. It is felt Russia's position is a reflection of the state providing free education. I am from Canada and can say only that our fees are a much smaller fraction of the US fees. Perhaps costs of education are a bigger factor in influencing students to graduate. The US is blessed with some of the best engineering schools in the world and should be very proud. An individual student's capability crosses many economic barriers but some need more help than others.

My opinion on the states (any nation) involvement in education is to encourage further education by making it affordable and setting up a system to ensure K-12 or equivalent system of support for schools to provide a good bases of schooling. Counseling and intervention may be required to discourage drop outs. A nation can only get stronger with an educated populous.

The college board report is long but highlights are available to read. I don't think anyone is saying implementing the report is not without many spokes but it is a starting point. My comments are in no way meant to judge the US systems. The US has led the world in technology for many years and must be doing something right. The rest of us are still playing catch up so I wouldn't put too much weight on rankings.

Hi Kevin,

Yes, USA did something as did Russia after WWII. They, both took the maximum brain from small countries that suffered from the war. This led to a better engineering, innovation, etc in the 50s and 60s. These knowledgeable people were dispersed and teached or helped to teach youngs with better sytem. The two war winners get out good science, products, and educational systems.

Today, it's the same as was before 1940. The fundamental question is: How we can improve the next generation. The actual is and will be the same as was yesterday. Only the future is changeable. The presence is the copy of the yesterday's picture or educational situation.

Yes, the government need to act, parents don't know what to do. It's the same as in business. The customer don't know what to do with a product or service to make better. The manufacturer and supplier must act to improve what is the next stage in quality.

Everyone must read EW Deming's messages and suggestions concerning education in his books. The solutions are there. I hope, this time, influencial people, politicians will understand and apply theories written by an American who was rejected in his country but created competition that passed the American system's "invincibility".

Education will be changed when people's attitude change. And change attitude of people, we have to transform the future generation. An old man thinks the way he learned to think. We have to do better with our youngs from kindergarden to university. Teach them new way to think. The new era will come only that way. So, act and do what supposed to be done, Gil.

The reason much of the "brain power" left many of the small countries during and following WW II was because of repression and a lack of freedom. Why did people die trying to get out of East Germany and into West Berlin, where they were confined by walls put up by the Communists. It was because there was political and economic freedom inside the walls. People don't die trying to get into countries that don't have political and spiritual freedom but they will put it all on the line to be free. Where we are moving to as a country is scary, as legislators who have been voted in and who are supposed to represent us act on their own interests and self benefit.

Yes, the government need to act, parents don't know what to do.

I beg to differ with this statement. Tell me one thing the government does well in regard to serving the populace, where the populace benefits, at a good value. Ronald Reagan said the worst thing you can hear when there is a knock at your door is "hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you".

The government doesn't want to produce a populace who are cognizant of our history and what has made us great. They want to produce a bunch of illiterates who will vote for them and be dependent upon them. And they do that by offering a bunch of "free" stuff. There is no "free" stuff when it comes from the government. It has been bought with someone else's money as a third-party purchase where the spender doesn't care about value in relation to cost because it isn't their money they're spending. Why else would the educational beauracrats want to dumb-down our youngsters and take away their understanding of capitalism, free enterprise and our great representative republic?

Parents (a vast majority of) do know what to do in regard to the education of their children. That is why Homeschooling is growing by leaps and bounds with the results that eclipse government and private schools to a great extent. There are exceptions to all situations, I know. But parents do know what is best for their kids, they know how they learn best, what motivates them and they have a vested interest in how well those children function. If parents don't Homeschool or are able to pay for private schooling, the next best option would be to have a voucher system when competition is introduced and the schools would operate in a free enterprise manner. They would either produce a good learning environment and the it's associated information or be forced out of business for lack of funds.

You are correct in the fact that we need to change the way we think so we can influence the next generation. We need to change who and where we are going to for information. What we're doing isn't working in spite of spending more and more $ per student than ever and we're getting lower and lower ability students be put out into society, if they finish school at all.

I disagree with about every point you make - same in your first post.

Parents in charge? Right! Not many are capable.

I understand sometimes we don't like to see and accept facts because it forces us to make a change in the principle prepositions we operate from. But TRUTH is TRUTH whether I/we want to accept it or not. Facts are facts, history brings observable results. It is then up to us to draw the proper conclusion from those facts/results with an open mind. "A mind is like a parachute, it only works properly when it is open."

History shows us the results of previous ways of thinking, the decisions made and the consequent results. Are we willing to make clear-headed, unbiased observations and draw the right conclusions so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past?

As a winner who was successful in my lifetime and generally an independent thinker - I believe I can tell the truth from regurgitated political stuff.

When someone does not accept the 'truth' of others they are wrong?

When I see posts declaring one way is 'the way' I have trouble associating those posts with an open mind. Their author's parachutes are not open!

The term 'proper conclusion' in itself means someone has already determined 'the proper course' - in their opinion anyway.

How just a bit of thought on one of your points

Amtrak

that is in direct competition with 2 less efficient & even more heavily subsidized modes of transportation, air & highways

Would you really welcome a level playing field?

or are you just trying to dictate advantage for your preference?

there are going to be winners & losers. The winners & losers are going to be determined by what we as a government promote or dissuade.

the carrots & sticks at this point are skewed towards short term profits

of course the present winners have the resources to protect their position

One of the buzz words that people know to parrot

Hi Everyone,

"Sorry the USA" because I am not American and I said "we". In Canada the school system is very similar. We get what you have already!

New and different: Eliminate union and the actual bureaucratic system. Why we give qualifiers: excellent, good, fair and no good. Imagine a young mind, working hard to assimilate everything for weeks or months she/he has to, and fails the exam. Cause of the failure can be momentarily health problem, nervosity or complete inability to learn. The low note will be hard to swallow and can make a mark for the future, momentarily or definitely.

Revolutionalize the system: Make changes, drastic changes. Without major changes we cannot make different teaching. Again, unions and bureaucracy must be eliminated. Also, we have to show in every program what is the future and how to arrive and what will be. Why we have lots of students in marketing and sales? Because marketing and selling was, is, and will be here, and people in this profession can make money. There is a future, see-able future.

I hope I don't frustrate people with my comments. If yes, let me know, Gil.

I remember well that when I was in school (45 to 50 years back) we had a few very good teachers and a lot that just had a job.

The good ones I respect to this day and the others I don't even like to think about - all these years later. Being a small community in the middle of no where I suppose we got last choice in many cases.

A good teacher is a wonderful help to students of all capabilities!

Hi MGR again,

Your comments are fine and tell us what supposed to be done.

On the question of parents' knowledge, I must explain what's the reality. Certain, if not very rare or none existent, when parents know what and how to teach their children at home. I say: knowledge and method.

The best example is the Polgar family. The father was an international chess master, and a teacher. The mather was also an excellent school-teacher. They decided, with the permission of the government to teach their children the normal school program, and teach chess. They started at very low age, one or just little bit later. I teached to my first dauther read at 14 months. At 2 and half, she was able to read the newspaper. The Polgar teached their children with an accelerated method (I have no knowledge about) and the most of the time they teached chess (again, I have no knowledge about the method). All three girls became world champion in team, beating Russians which give them some trouble, and individually competing with men. Judit passed the 2400 Elo marks I think at 18 or before. Zsuzsa and Judit became idols and admiration by many all around the world. Again, their is no copy of the Polgar girls!

Exception talks and succeeds! In conclusion, it's possible to do better, much better than the regular and conventional school programs give to everyone. However, it's hard to find parents with high level of knowledge and capabilities to transfer to their children what will be the best for them. Many parents have advanced knowledge but they cannot teach or they don't have time to do it. In my case, I wasn't able to teach my other children by luck of time. My family needed a money producer father at place of a teacher. Financial help needs to succeed in everything. Also, personally, I learned discipline, which is not existing in our actual generation. To do better than someone else, need knowledge and lots of discipline.

Small group can do better than the general public but set up, what and how to do things are complicated but feasible. Again, read EW Deming's books is important. Let me know if I am fine, just fine or completely out of synchro, Gil.

There was a Thread from 9/11/10 re: Debating National Standards for Education that addresses many of this same questions being asked here. In response to the skill level of the parents to educate their kids; we need to look at the big picture and not just a small snapshot of a particular family. We can pick out specific instances that support either the lack of ability of parents or where the parents are competant.

One thing that is interesting to look at is the National Competitions in spelling, history, science or geography and see how many Homeschoolers are in the finals. They make up only a small percentage of the population and yet are represented to a much larger proportion of competitors than those from government, private or parochial schools. The reason for that is not because the parents are incompetant.

There are many factors that come into play when fixing a problem as large as the educational system now in place. There is no easy fix. It does come down to parents taking responsibility for the education of their kids, whether at home, private or in government schools. If the parents are involved they will start paying attention to what is going on in their local schools, start encouraging the teachers in the things they are doing well, supporting high standards of behavior (which is one of the biggest hurdles for teachers to overcome), being aware of what is being taught and voting to help competant people represent the local educational system. Kids always do better when there is parental involvement.

Here is a paste from the Thread mentioned before:

"I agree that there needs to be a high level of education. I just question who is responsible for seeing that it happens. It isn't the governments job, especially the Federal government (it's no where in the Constitution that the Federal gov. should have a role in education), and the Feds shouldn't be allowed to dictate to parents educating their kids at home, teachers in private, parochial or public settings how or what should be taught. It is the parents responsibility to see that their kids learn what is necessary, irregardless of the setting they place their kids in. Kids do better when there is parental involvement. Maybe they should decide what has more importance; driving a new car, living in a bigger house or something else that requires them to spend too much time away from their kids. The one thing in their life that has true value is their kids. Turn off Dancing With the Stars, American Idol or whatever mindless rubbish is stealing time with our kids."

The statement you made about looking at the future is right on. We have to know what we are educating for before we can put the processes in place to bring about the end result. We have to look at trends of business, economics, industry, etc. to see where we are moving to. "Methods are many, principles are few, methods always change, principles never do."

There is an amazing amount of curriculum that can be chosen from to educate our kids that isn't clouded by the beauracracy of a local school board, a union that fights to keep incompetant teachers or government dictate. Parents have a vested interest in how their kids develope, want to see them succeed and become a force for good in todays society so consequently perform better than many teachers who are just filling a space to earn an income. I'm not intending to denigrate all teachers, I know many teachers who see their occupation as a calling to impact this society through helping to educate the next generation.

Hi MGR,

I agree with your point of view and you just repeat what I said. Among 35 million or more youngs we have a few at spelling competition and succeed better ways than public school students. It's the same as I mentionned the Polgar family. Name me someone who ask the parents of the top spelling young: What was your method to get where you child is? The Polgar teaching wasn't repeated. I learned in the late 50s how to teach words to newborn. The small book was not became a best-seller and went to the educational system of any country.

One word however, many times I heard that youngs, practically newborns are the most open to learn. I was in kindergarden at 3 and learned many things that was teached or is teached yesterday to 7, 8 years or older in our schools. I see no evolution during the last 50 years. I hope only a few will be selected. Too many people in a group cannot produce a positive decision. A few well decided can, so we have to select the few best we have. Make them leaders and they will do the work.

To succeed by doing new and different in education we need a leader with knowledge, personality, and lots of persuasive power. The knowledgeable person has a theory and an aim, and know that the new educational system brings gain to to society. Also, this leader feels compelled to realize the aim for her/himself and for the society. Because she/he is smart, he has the step-by-step plan of action and method to achieve it with prediction of results.

It will be promessing when we will select the 5 to 10 best elementary school teachers in the country. Put together and let them create a teaching program and we or the government disperse throughout the country.

If someone has better idea, let me know, Gil.

Name me someone who ask the parents of the top spelling young: What was your method to get where you child is? There isn't a system, there are simply parents who are committed to seeing their children succeed in learning. The process as to how that takes place is as varied as there are homeschool situations.

The parents choose the curriculum that matches their children's learning style and preference. They choose the environment that the learning is done in. They choose how their kids learn about personal and controversial issues. They get together with other parents for learning and encouragement. They attend seminars, conferences and read/study to get better at helping their kids get the skills to succeed in life and add value to this great country of ours.

The way we make a difference in the existing established system is, like I said earlier, for the parents to get involved locally and statewide to pick good people who are qualified to have a say in what takes place on a more broad scale.

The inevitable goal of recruiting on mass is to take in a lot of potential candidates then let the least skilled go. Therefor, quantity should yield quality, but only the best quality that you can afford.

Hopefully when the weed out process is complete money will be found to encourage the best skilled to stay with their students rather than be enticed away by companies willing to pay 2-3 times a teacher's annual salary. The fact is that the US is a victim of its own success. The high demand for the most skilled workers continues to lead to shortages of those types of people.

For a blog on teaching with big ideas floated the spelling is really very poor - impressive.

Education's greatest challenge is the cultural wobbling of the family unit and the ever-growing status of poverty in the U.S. Minus familial focus on education and minus resources to properly feed and care for adolescent students, teaching effectiveness is incredibly compromised. Until these symptoms are addressed, the rest of the dialogue over education is moot.

GA - Until these symptoms are addressed, the rest of the dialogue over education is moot - you mean public education

But you are 100% correct!

I did mean public, thanks for the intuitive interlude and for the confirmation.

They build a wall around you and march around blowing trumpets.

Who on earth thought up that name?

It just screams separatist elitist

Nice shop though

Wallbuilders doesn't change any of the historical documents, like many current textbook editors do, it simply points out the communication of ideas and viewpoints that many of the framers of this great country had. If that is being elitist or narrow, than one has a different vision for this country and rather than change what has worked here very well for 234 years, why not go find a country that already operates within ones particular ideology?

Isn't it ok for Christians, or any other group for that matter, to be involved in politics? It is simply carrying on the tradition of our great country. It seems like you can believe anything you want and propose all sorts of aberrant behavior or Sharia Law etc., and be applauded by many in the media, but if you have a label as a "Christian" you are the worst person possible. Judge Bork, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and others are prime examples of people who are castigated for their Christianity.

We currently have a variety of religions represented in our government structure. That's part of the freedom we have that was established 234 yrears ago by a group of forward-looking thinkers, where many of them were Christians. They established a government structure that allowed for people of all faiths to participate within the guidelines of the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation. The farther we get from those principles of the Constitution the worst off we are.

Those principles give us a framework for our educational system, economics, currency, laws etc. Without a basis to operate from we will drift any way the winds blow. We will continue to deteriorate as a nation as we abandon the principles on which we were founded. The Constitution is not a living document to be interpreted by any "Tom, Dick or Harry" just because some individual doesn't like what it says. During his campaign for president, Barack Hussein Obama called the Constitution "a deficient document" and that he wanted to "fundamentally change America". Well, he's doing that and we are in worst shape now than we have ever been; in regard to the loss of our freedoms, financially (this administration has accumulated more debt in 18 months than were accumulated since this country was established), unemployment (about 14%), our sovereignty as a nation is being compromised as our courts are being subject to world courts.

All these things affect the state of our society with regard to who teaches what to our kids in the government schools and the standards held for those students. Our students won't hear comments and ideas like the following 2 quotes:

"Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties." Abraham Lincoln

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."
Ronald Reagan

Actually there shouldn't be any religion "represented" in the government

The constitution is a living document as evidenced by a well defined process to amend.

Part of the balance of power is the courts, which continue to refine the implementation of our system of laws

Social organizations [our government] must continue to evolve

The Constitution doesn't say people of faith, any faith, shouldn't be involved in government. It simply states that there isn't to be "an establishment of a state-run religion". That is part of the reason the colonists left England.

You are right about the Constitution being amended, but there is a proper process for it, not by judicial activism or the legislative and executive branches running roughshod over it. Our government and most of the people operating are so screwed up that it will take many years to repair and get back to the fundamentals as they were established.

The courts, Federal and Supreme, were established to be subserviant and accountable to the executive and legislative braches of government. Because of judicial activism (again people without integrity and character to do what is right and not push a personal agenda) our fundamental laws are being misconstrued and our rights as citizens are being usurped. Judges are not being held accountable by the elected people who are supposed to be representing us and protecting our rights.

Having a discussion like this is very enlightening because it highlights the need for the original documents to be studied by our students. Wallbuilders doesn't tell you what to think about the documents, it doesn't editorialize, it simply makes us aware of them and you come to your own conclusion. Their goal is education.

Take your BS "history truths" and BS "zombie factory", to Twitter or some equally "challenging IQ venue".

This group makes their truths as they go - that way only they can know them and keep the club exclusive - wouldn't want to let the rifraf in!

There must be some site somewhere that attracts retarded adults - maybe they will buy your stuff - or at least not laugh at it.

I thought I should post a better quote from Abraham Lincoln

The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities. --July 1, 1854 [?] Fragment on Government

along with a link to a much more complete site, not some sound bite taken out of context

Maybe it would be good for you to go online or better yet, buy a book with the copy of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and Articles of Confederation and consume it, not just give our history a cursory glance. Find out the facts of why our country was established, how the government is to operate and why we have had such significant impact in the world. We are a good people (not perfect by any stretch of the imagination) and "when Americans cease to be good, America will cease to be great."

The Constitution gives the guidelines what the Federal government is allowed to do for it's citizens corporately. It is specifically to do things that the citizens cannot do on their own (like your quote from President Lincoln) referred to.

"We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this CONSTITUTION for the United States of America."

That is all the Federal government is to do. It isn't supposed to control and run business, education, banking, housing, transportation, etc.

It is the people without integrity and character on both sides of the political aisle who have bastardized the process for their own gain. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

We have strayed from those ideals, to our detriment, and that of the world we live in.

no no no

Your comments make it clear you are one of the people the constitution was written to protect the rest of us from.

I certainly don't need a lecture from a wallbuilder [seems quite a fitting name], about the nature of liberty & freewill.

How can you possibly think that government should not involved in matters of commerce which is One of the primary reasons for the formation of the United States,

There should be more control over business, not less. As Vlad pointed out the elevated stature of business interests [LLC] is at the root of the present malaise. Corporations are not equal to people.

Time & Time again Government has stepped in to to fill the void left when business has failed to act in a responsible manner, as is right & proper. This is not to say that there isn't room for massive improvement.

These improvements would not involve the blind adherence to documents being taken out of context to promote a allegedly conservative agenda disguising the continued corporate welfare & repressive theocratic Christan nonsense

California leads the planet in innovation

your sweeping broad generalizations, lead me to believe your views are the result of listening to conservative commentators there is a spectrum of political beliefs including both extremes, local governments range from nearly non existent [Alturas] to all inclusive [san francisco].

The are environmental laws are a reaction to companies acting badly in combination with a fairly fragile environment due to the small amounts of rain fall & unique geology[in some areas]

Once again room for improvement, sure

There is no response to most of your rant, as it has no basis in reality.

My state suffers just as much from the extreme conservative politicians as much the liberal ones

California is the 4th largest economy in the world

Everybody makes broad sweeping generalizations...

And your post, too, is well said, kevinm. I agree wholeheartedly.

As I have no desire to get into a political or religious bladder-voiding contest here (and it doesn't jibe with CR4 rules, dontcha know ), I'm leaving until this thread returns to its originally scheduled programming.

_{closes cr4wlspace door quietly behind her.....}

GA - Agreed Kevin

When my wife and I converse on the social state of affairs, domestically and globally, as well as the domestic status of public education, we ultimatley shrug our shoulders. Whether discussion or reading bring one to the level of exhaustion and depression, it is inevitable. We decide to practice goodness in our infinitesimal patch of space and participate in charity for feeding people. It is the primary source of peace in our lives.