Eliminate the Traumatic "F" Grade in School

and instead of giving the poor students the tramatic experimce of flunking a course, maybe these bleeding hearts educators give the students a pass on the course also.

subjects like math, you either know it or not.

The Fairfax County, VA School Board deserves an 'F'.

Idiots! You may not be able to fail at school, but wait when you get out and fail at life!

This borders on child abuse.

This kind of thinking is the product of individuals that failed at basic reasoning in school. If they did that at the school my kid went to I would pull my kid out and either home school or place him in another school.

Trust me once you are given enough F's you get used to it.

I wasn't stupid but I was a constant pain in the ass who asked a lot of questions the teacher's could not answer and once I knew I could do something I felt no reason to do it over and over and over again to satisfy someone else's rules.

As far as this crap they have now where no one looses at sports or gets a honestly deserved fail grade that is a bunch of crap. With out it kids don't develop the correct self perceptions of what they can or can not do which will eventually lead to them becoming absolutely clueless and overall useless people as adults.

There will no longer be those village idiots and failures we all use as the least common denominator to set our life standards above but instead everyone will be that person and proud of it.

You got an F because you asked a lot of questions the teacher could not answer? That is not even remotely possible. Those kids want to know things, and consequently, almost always do very well.

So who are you fooling, you must of asked lots of questions the teacher did not want to answer, most likely because they were busy teaching other students the subject. Your letter is actually a reflection of the problem you are professing to dislike, mainly that making kids feel good about themselves is primary.

I hope you are not sincere about mourning the loss of the village idiot, even if it is name only.

Oh I asked a lot of questions. Like why are we learning this mathematical formula or method even though it is clearly wrong and countless other disruptive things like that. For me I was a what is now considered a gifted learner which did not sit well with many teachers. They want to teach what they have planned for the day not answer a lot of questions.

Its easy to get F's if you have a lame school system with bottom of the barrel teachers using bottom of the barrel books and reference materials. It was more a battle of wills than anything.

If you are convinced I am some dummy I will happily submit to a full background read up and review of everything I have done here and on another electronics related forum where I hang out. If you want to find that forum just Google "Grid tie inverter schematic" trust me you will find me! From that you can judge how smart or dumb I really am and how likely that I was a F student because I couldn't understand or do the work. You will see I have nothing to hide and certainly no reasons to have any concerns that I may be some half wit. How about you?

"why are we learning this even though it is clearly wrong?"

Wow, you are gifted. I bet your teachers, (in high school, I believe you said) were thrilled to have you. I bet we could agree that our high school careers were not well spent.

I'm guessing you are on top of your game, interested in many things. We appear to be in the same industry. I'm just pointing out that either personal or family motivation is what matters. Good teachers provoke students. If you disdain your high school teachers, because they were numbnuts, I don't see how that argument supports your theory that instead of passing unqualified students (your idiot contemporary students) instead of NOT passing them with an incomplete is better. In the end, if teachers have more resources, more children (and their parents) might become interested in learning. It's the standard of learning that matters, not the grade.

I was the third lowest GPA when I graduated but when I went to college both times I was usually at the top of my class in almost everything that had value or relevance to my future profession!

However once I got a way from my high school I did very well in my college days being I was not handed anything but encouraged to ask questions and pursue my interests. To get through college I took out loans, I paid off myself in half their due time, and worked while at college to have basic spending cash.

I wont say I am as successful as I would have liked to have been but I have owned my own business since my mid 20's and consider working for others just something fun to do and a good way to learn new things during my slow times.

Now I am 36 years old and everything I own is paid for and I have a life I feel is close to where I wanted to be. I would dare say that there are more than a few A students that cant say they have had the interesting life adventures or experiences like what I have!

Gifted? unless it's blatantly obvious no one can recognize that.

But after another post stirred my own memories of the educational system taking the easy way out.

As a teenager going to school, I did poorly in English, Grammar and typing as current cr4 members point out, I still am. But I was above average in math and sciences and excelled in industrial arts and of course phys ed. And I loved it

We were required to take (3) years of English, and as a freshman my first year was Drama I. I was pulling a C+ not bad, not good but I could not care less....just as long it didn't drop below a C-.

There were about 20 in our class and at semesters end about 8 were failing and were going to receive F's. Parent/teacher conferences were to follow, so what the teacher did, was pass out a 10 question True or False exam, and this was going to dictate your score for the semester, no matter what you were getting. The exam said write True and False. The teacher than said write in "T"n for true and "f" for false.

We knew why she was doing it, and we went home we told our parents, they of course knew me and my interests in the subject and said, Are you the one that was failing. I told them nope, C+.

Well I was pretty confidence of my choices, and I did get it all correct. 100%, but she gave me an "F". because I did not put T or F, I wrote the word out. I could not defend my position, that was true.... I mean "T".

The remainder of the class past, the worst being C as the worst.

I was always quite, and I received poor scores in courses like this and in the past my parents never went to school and for answers. Those answers were decided and came from home. between me and my parents.

Not this time, as embarrassed as I was, they (my mom) went to the conference and questioned the teacher, why she through out the all scores taken from semester and relied on one test. A 10 question true and false on top of it. My mom and my dad said they were going to pull me from school for such asinine shoddy work.

And pulling me from school, you think I would be happy, hell no, school got me out of farm work.

She gave me a D-, and I learned from a early age, not only confirming whats required, but that there are teachers that look for the easy way out, and it was up to me to get what I wanted in life.

I should tell you what the higher GPA's in our class out come was in life. It sure did not reflect their high school GPA.

You got an F because you asked a lot of questions the teacher could not answer? That is not even remotely possible. Those kids want to know things, and consequently, almost always do very well.

Not only is this possible, but it seems fairly common. I had more than one class I would have failed abysmally because I was a thorn in the side of my incompetent teachers (competent teachers loved me but that breed was already on the endangered species list when I was in school). Fortunately for me my ability to pass tests with glorious proficiency saved me being tortured by these same people for another year (typical grading being ~30% "participation" gives teachers a lot of leverage and though I may participate more my participation grade may suffer more for it).

If you don't think that some teachers will use their 'power' over the kids in their class to save face you are sorely mistaken. Teachers are people too, like their students, they are subject to a breed of peer pressure and are also stuck with the task of garnering respect (with tied hands and no guidance) from a bunch of kids that know the teacher is full of BS; even the extra slow kids recognize when a teacher has to read the text before class in order to teach the text (which the students are supposed to be able to recite by rote), especially when they then proceed to teach contradicatory information from the text they are using. Some very few students have the gumption to raise their hand and correct the obviously erroneous statements made by their instructors; for which they receive the ire of said instructor (and the students around them who now have to think for themselves). This is a double edged sword that is a far more painful test of spirit than getting an F ever will be; and true to form, it didn't kill me and I became stronger as a result.

...most likely because they were busy teaching other students the subject.

I disagree, most likely they were busy droning on in an effort to get through the material regardless of whether or not anyone in the class is learning anything... especially now that all focus is on passing the standardized tests; for which there is typically at least a week of special study classes and practice tests immediately before the testing to ensure the appearance of real learning by the students.

This brings me to an interesting 'flip-side' of this coin... As a student I would greatly have benefitted from taking 'Advanced' and 'Honors' classes. I had the core knowledge and intellect to do so but two things kept me out.

1) my class work didn't demonstrate my level of ability because, for example, I was bored out of my gourd and simply refused to prove I knew what a freakin' pronoun is for the 100th time.

2) the workload for Honors students was understood to be substantially heavier than for kids in regular classes... I was already on the verge of failing due to my resistance to nonsensical homework projects that only served to prove I could do what I was told to do over and over again. So why would I do that to myself, especially in light of the fact that I was a 'latch-key' kid from a broken home...

We should be encouraging more kids toward Honors and Advanced classes rather than coddling the bottom of the barrel. I agree even the lowest performer deserves to be held up and polished to as high a shine as they can achieve but not at the expense of the kids who could go to the stars if only someone would cut their leash. No matter how much you buff a tin star it will never turn to silver, tin is just as useful as silver but we shun it because it's not 'pretty enough'; that is the perceptual flaw we have to fix.

Maybe if we spent the money for airport scanners and 'pat-downs' on diverse education programs that allow for more personalized learning experiences for ALL students we could turn the future around and make our society one of understanding rather than fear.

You are right. Same old story - let make every body equal. Force anybody who achieves back to the bottom while telling the underachievers that they are just disadvantaged. God forbid that a kid learns to work hard and face advsersity. Instead, lets give them an incomplete, give them special favors to finish the work, and when they underachieve at their jobs, we'll put them on welfare, medicaid, and food stamps because "They just aren't capable of anything more."

Horse hockey. Even somebody who is dumb as a post in school might have the ability to be a great artist, athlete, plumber, or whatever. Heck I knew a guy who was mediocre at school in general, but was awesome at material science. NOT an easy subject, but he was a natural.

"D" now gets the stigma for a few years, and then it too goes out the window....

Rinse and repeat until done. Hell, pretty soon straight-A students can have self-esteem problems.

I forget which Gilbert & Sullivan operetta has the song "They All Shall Equal Be." It's a hoot.

(Edit: It's from The Gondoliers):

"pretty soon straight-A students can have self-esteem problems."

If I recall correctly it was those over achieving brown nosers who had the most self esteem problems of any of the kids I grew up. If they where not the best they took it personally. I suspect it may be those kids who are now adults that are having a hard time accepting that their little sheltered brats are not the top so they push to bring the standards down to their kids capable levels being they cant hack it at the real top end level. Make the old C the new A+ so little sally and Tommy don't have to stress out like mommy and daddy did when they couldn't break the A- level.

Us bottom of the barrel lot could have cared less about what letter they gave us and still don't give a hoot about what our kids get provided they are showing they are trying and doing to the best of their abilities.

'over achieving brown noser' I don't recall seeing you at our high school. Those brown nosers received all the areas schlorships from area foundations and went to college and rightly dropped out (washed out) after the first semester. The students that was in the middle of the gpa held off going to college or didn't go at all eventually started their own successful businesses

This is a great plan for students. Now lets start a plan that will force all employers to give all their employees a free pass on not being able to do the work. Just don't expect a good product or good service.

Parents that support this kind of plan should face a criminal charge.

Just my old man attitude.

Even more (speaking as the employer, which I am NOT, instead of the employee, which I AM), "Oh, you weren't able to get it done on time because you were distracted (having fun, partying, sleeping, pick your excuse), that's OK. We'll wait another month. Can you get it in next month? How does your schedule look then? Oh, really?"

"I'll give you plenty of time off to do it. YOU'RE FIRED!"

Most of my bosses didn't care too much about my self-esteem. Or emotional trauma. They just wanted me to finish what I agreed to finish, on time, acceptable (at least) quality.

As it should be. And will be for these kids we're failing.

And as noted above, the F I got caused trauma to my backside, but no lasting effects. And I DID get the subject, very well, thank you. I use it daily, now. I knew it then, but what I lacked was the discipline to just do the stinking practice, anyway.

Oh, wait, it's discipline we're breeding/training out of these kids, isn't it.

And isn't it amazing that the "educators" (My Dad and Mom both had earned Doctorates. My Dad had two. One of them was a PhD. He called it a "Piled Higher and Deeper". It was an Ed degree.) insist on kowtowing to the children and calling them "Ladies" or "Women" and Gentlemen" or "Men", when NONE OF THEM COULD EARN A LIVING AND SUPPORT THEMSELVES YET? (With apologies to the few exceptions to that statement. I salute you. But I also suspect that if you are already earning a living, you know and agree with the truth curmudgeonly old farts learned the same way you are, or did.) Where/When I grew up, you earned what society called you by what you did/didn't do, in circumstance where what you did/didn't do affected all around you clearly. And sometimes you still just had to do what you saw as needed, and take the approbation of those who didn't see it. Yet. But you made a decision after thinking about it, knowing there would be consequences, and the decision thus had <GASP> value, and a price, and your self-esteem might suffer, at least till the results became clearer to the society in which you lived, and you might actually suffer for doing the right thing. But you didn't "fail" (real or perceived) without THINKING about it. And you weren't light-hearted about it, cause there was no "make it up later"

Life. Wonderful, traumatic stuff. Our kids need it.

BTW, I live in Fairfax, VA. I think its school administration deludes itself into thinking its the best in the country. It certainly loudly proclaims its transcendency. But when your peers (I'd be embarrassed to have them call themselves my peer, personally.) keep telling you how wonderful you are, and you wish to believe that no one else is intelligent enough to know, you undoubtedly tend to believe it. And thus, the Emperor HAS NO CLOTHES!

With apologies to all. This topic hits a hot button.

To get an F:

• don't show up for class
• don't stay awake if you do show up
• don't understand the language
• don't even try to understand
• or commit violence upon the teacher

am I missing something?

chris

No, your not missing something. That is what it takes to get an F today. I actually wish that it was both easier to give a student an F and that failure was an accepted result. Look at school sports. In every game somebody looses. Well sometimes in football there can be a tie, but we have tie breaking rules to correct that.

Moore's law in reverse. Each human generation shall be 1/2 as smart as the last.

IT'S THE LAW!!!!!

I have seen this happen already with the "no loser" sports teams. Children raised without failure cannot appreciate success. They also don't learn how to handle failure (be it through school - or through competition) and don't know how to react.

Failing at something is necessary to drive success.

My Sister-In-Law is a senior school district administrator located in New Jersey. Last time I saw her she was bragging to all within ear shot that her school district recently invoked the very same policy as the VA school district. She just recently got promoted to this position after finishing her MS in Education. Originally, she was just a plain Jane high school Guidance Counsellor with a BS in Education......I usually refer to a BS in Education as BS = "Bullsh*t", and I tell her so almost every time we meet, because in my estimation the educators don't know WTF they're doing....and it shows in the lack of preparedness in the last decade of graduating bunch of brats...and it's getting more worse than better.

Let's just say that she and I do not see eye to eye on this subject.....she is standing too close to the forest...and can't see the trees from that forest! Plain and simple!

Now this policy of dropping the "F" grade is just a pure travesty. And, where does the ill-advised constant tweaking of the education system end? The system is nearly at the bottom of the barrel already when compared to other county's education systems.

Maybe the damned educators should award the "F" to themselves instead! Get rid of the teacher's unions and tenure and things will change around dramatically in short order!!!!!

Let's

I think the reason that we come to Earth in the first place, is as a learning place, in order to appreciate the perfection of heaven. It is a school that no one can possibly fail, but all the reasons are obscure to us, after we have been here a while. What reasons can heaven possibly have for sending stillborns, cripples, maniacs, criminally insane, etc. (and still receive them back. It is to 'experience' life in those conditions, and take the lesson back. It is just to have the 'experience' of being imperfect that creates the understanding

multiply these lessons of lifetimes times billions, through all eternity, and you have the school of the godhead, or the library of heaven, or something like that.

Unfortunately, for the temporal terrestrial schools, students only attend once, if at all, and learn only a limited amount of the material, dependent upon learning aptitude and learning environment, and learning focus. If the student doesn't want to learn, there is no teaching possible. In the old days 'discipline' was supplied as a motivator, but this form of psychological force has decreased, due to the traumatic effects upon the emergent baby boomers, and their power to change methods which have lasted thousands of years. (not that it wasn't justified, but that a more successful substitution was not guaranteed or proven)

This situation is our (baby boomers) fault largely, and also becasue we allow idiots and people of low integrity into positions of authority. In this case, it is like Animal Farm. We let the pigs take over to make change, and now object even more to those changes. What is needed is not an enablement of change, but a specification of change, along with a corrective feedback mechanism to assure its direction.

Seasons Greetings to all, regardless of your beliefs

Chris

ps. my seasonal message:

There is no need to fear lack, for the power to create is within us all. There is no need to fear those who will take by force or steal, for the most valuable thing is a person who creates. Slaves and the terrorized do not create well. What is needed to be created first, is freedom from Fear. Strike Hope into the hearts of people, and stimulate the future, by the example of your creativity and conviction.

You wrote, "It is a school that no one can possibly fail..."

I think you can fail and if you do, you are doomed to repeat the lesson.

I honestly don't know.

Its just my meandering thoughts on rather unknowable things (at this level)

and there may be other reasons for repeating the lessons.

what form of failure do you think could happen? In my purview, we are our own judges... and forgiveness is ultimately in our own hands. This view make qualify me as a sinner... but that is what I think.

Cheers,

Chris

Depends on your definition of what failure is.

However, I think we all arrive for a purpose and have a set agenda. Given our free will (or extraneous circumstances) we can complete that agenda or fail to.

Oh, pooh. From what I heard from friends, Sister Mary Breakyourfingers was a very effective motivator with her yardstick.

And those friends got better grades than I did in public school. And probably learned a lot more.

Hooker

I think I was saying that, for that time and social situation. I did say that improvement was warranted because there were issues with it. I don't think sister mary was the final answer in human evolution. I was just saying that the improvements must be proven to work to produce the desired results before replacing sister Mary-Margaret...

Actually, Chris, we agree. I was just inserting the stereotypical Catholic learning environment to show that there is a place and time for discipline in education.

IMO, there is a place for Sister what's-her-face. In the early years of education, probably about K-9, everything taught is pretty much foundational and also requires learning discipline. Only upon reaching the maturity level of about 10th grade is a student able to evolve into a more free flowing "question the educators" environment. Again, IMO, and I certainly understand that not all students evolve the same.

This is not to say that there isn't any room for creativity at younger ages; ie, art classes should be a part of a well rounded early education, but if a foundation of the 3 R's isn't established there is no "further education".

Just my opinion.

Hooker

we agree.

but as an aside... in my public high school the catholic kids transferred in at grade 10, because there were no higher classes in the catholic school our town...

and that was when all the crazy stuff started happening. the catholic boys and girls were all much wilder and bigger risk takers than the docile public kids.. (probably because of the 'discipline' of the sisters...lol) so I don't know about maturity in grade 10.... I think that occurs about 29 years of age if one is lucky. I think we were reaching maximum immaturity in grade 10...lol I didn't have the sisters, but i did have my military father... probably worse.

cheers,

chris

Well, I obviously wasn't a lucky one at 29. Made arguably the worst mistake of my life when I married my first wife!! So there are a lot of qualifiers when it comes to attributing "maturity" at any age.

Hooker

Oh, pooh. From what I heard from friends, Sister Mary Breakyourfingers was a very effective motivator with her yardstick.

Your wrong, we were not talking about sadistic spinsters, only about the bleeding heart liberals form of teaching.

There has to be a middle ground, reenforcement and discipline

When I first went to a small technical college, 25 + years ago. And we had fellow students who tried to worked the systems, sometimes they were able to, some times they weren't able to. Right then I realized that the teachers, instructors and professors were not gods, just human. And since I rolled off the farm, I realized anything worth getting was worth working for, As hard as it was, I realized it was up to me to get my education, though I did vent to my parents.

And with that type of work ethic kept me succeeding. up till about 5 years ago when I had health issues. After which was very difficult to reestablished my self.

I went back to college (ITT Technical Institute), I was very leery about the "for profit" And during my orientation, one of the chair person asked "What I wanted to get out of the institution?", I told him, to be able to learn and equipment me with the tools (education) to do my job better.

Well one returning student who had a Associates degree at ITT and wanted to to get his Bachelors, Chirped up and said, "Oh these classes here are so easy, All you have to do is show up for class, you don't even have to do the work and you'll pass with a "C". (This is the result of the conditioning of the student from the original post)

I looked at him and said, education should be earned, and its what YOU make of it.

Turned out that returning student, I had him in some of my classes, and he followed his own advice and promptly flunked, Yes he received and "F". he could not understand it, he followed the path hthat always work for him, he was shocked and I was relieved. but he was not the only one, the majority of the students felt like that and they pressured the instructors and administration to be more lienate with the grading.

There are good teachers and there are bad ones and education is what YOU make of it, and one can not put that responsibility unto others.

btw, I believe the entrance exam to ITT is if you can sign or have someone authorized to sign your tuition checks, you are excepted.

Like ITT or any school for that matter. Education is good, but its up to you to make it a quality education.

I may be partly wrong but I believe I'm also partly right. We're just describing opposite sides of the coin.

No matter what is said about the Nun teachers in Catholic schools, I never knew a Catholic school graduate who couldn't read, write and do math at a college level. And I don't mean entrance level.

I'd choose this side of the coin over the bleeding heart liberals side any day.

Hooker

Quite true but a major part of what skews private school performance data is that they actually fail, not graduate and even remove from school those who refuse to learn. Imagine if we could just do that in public schools. Wait a minute, isn't that what we're all advocating should happen?

When I entered the NASA Langley Engineering Tech School in 1966 the standard was: if you failed a course you had one chance to take a make up exam to raise your overall score to a passing grade. If you couldn't do that you were out on the street. If you failed a second course you were out on the street with no second chance allowed.

Sometime after 1972 or so EEOC mandates were instituted. The above standard went away, paid tutors were allowed, unlimited class retakes were allowed and the whole program went to hell in a bucket.

Believe me I know what dumbing down a curriculum does. I saw it happen first hand. Eventually they shut down the whole program and contracted out much of the tech work.

Hooker

Believe me I know what dumbing down a curriculum does.

Tech college I went to, (back in the 80's) they did the same thing even eliminating some core classes like math and sciences and replace it with general ed courses, because we had a 80% drop out rate.....wtf. I felt good graduating, made me feel I accomplished something, and I did.

80% drop out was a problem because at colleges their product is enrollments and graduates. the less they are the less funds from the government. so lets lower the bar.

So there are issues across the board. Both good and bad.

We're just describing opposite sides of the coin.

I realize that when I read your reply to Chris.

At ITT as an example, there are many but I am using this one. In our area we have the Oneida tribe who believes in a good education and gives free education to the tribe members. (casinos are doing well). Also there are reason for this, they are trying to break away from unwed mothers with children from multiple fathers and alcoholism. ^{(this should be another post)}

Any way, at ITT it seems that the value of giving its tribal members education is lost to "Going through the motions" of giving education.

They are trying to gain/give an education they are not so much suited for but in my opinion, a portion not all, have a lack a capacity to comprehend. Even after repeated times of stopping a class try to put it in a way of understanding to them. And when they are failing, they complain to the instructor, and when they don't get anywhere they began to complain to the administration, and I am sure that the tribal CFO says a word or two to the Administration.

Education should be earned. I can only speak for myself, but when I paid for my education, (for me, Pell grant money was exhausted which again is another postthere was very little left for me), so I tried to get the most from it as I can. and if the instructors were bad, instead of complaining about it, I worked it in my education. And by that I mean, if there are people like that as instructors, you can but your bottom dollar that there are co-workers and managers like that out in the work force. Learn to deal with them in school.

GA's and Atta-Boy's to all.

To All:

Q: How many of you, and for how long have you been involved in public (government) education to feel qualified to comment?

OK. I'm down, now kick me!

Does having children going through the appalling new schools count or does going through a public university and being stunned at the low quality of the new freshmen undergraduates matter. Oh and don't say that home schooling is always better. I tried to help a home schooled freshman in freshman composition class. He literally did not know what was a verb or noun. I have no idea how this kid got admitted.

Sheesh! I-Waz-Already-Down. What kinda' kick is that? Put a litta' Umpoof in it next time!

No wonder that those crumbs are crappa' all over youse.

OK. So maybe I didn't understand your response correctly to my query of;

Q: How many of you, and for how long have you been involved in public (government) education to feel qualified to comment?

Your emotional response didn't address my Q.

But, hey if you're REALLY super-dooper ready to stand-up to try and make a change, irrespective (irregardless) of the impact on you, and family, GO-FOR-IT!

I'se Double Dare Youse.

Ok, I'll take your question literally.

All American citizens who pay taxes to pay for public education are involved with public education. My tax bill qualifies me to comment that I'm upset with the poor quality of public education.

Now if you meant something other than what you wrote, then I have a few simple suggestions. Carefully compose your thoughts before you write. Next write down your thoughts. Don't worry yet about the grammar or syntax, yet. Make sure that you have all of your thoughts down. Once you are satisfied you have a concise complete statement of your thoughts, you should check the grammar structure of your sentences. I'll point out a few of the common mistakes people make:

• subject and verb agreement
• sentence fragments (no subject or verb)
• run-on sentences (multiple subjects or verbs)
• pronouns without a reference

This is certainly not an exhaustive list of how people can be misunderstood by the use of poor grammar. Regardless of how well somebody composes a sentence, others can still misunderstand the intent of the sentence.

• subject and verb agreement
• sentence fragments (no subject or verb)
• run-on sentences (multiple subjects or verbs)
• pronouns without a reference

Thanks for the pointers

Ooh, whatta' kick!

So why aren't you an educator in the government system instead of doing whatever you do to make a buck?

So why aren't you an educator in the government system instead of doing whatever you do to make a buck?

Are you an educator?

involved:

"Connected by participation or association"

(definition #4 from the linked free dictionary)

This is the word you chose to challenge me. So anyone associated with public education is involved with public education. Clearly the public is associated with public education. You did not ask for participants, providers or as you later phrased it "the givers" of education.

Well in the spirit of my father, my father in-law, my wife, my brother in-law and the late Jaime Escalante I say that our students must know when they are failing. They must be given every tool and encouragement to be able to pass. But failure must be recognized.

What has been the response from the educational community in your district to your directive to encourage failure?

So aside from not knowing the meaning of mortal, you have a comprehension problem?

Or are you just determined to miss interpret Red's statements?

How did you get "your directive to encourage failure" out of what Red or anyone has said to date?

Frankly, having seen the qualities of teachers I know, some of whom would like to eliminate the trauma, so that they, themselves, don't have to go through trauma with parents and students, and some of whom have held strong on the subject of accountability, both their own, and the student's, I'll stand with those who are going to give MY CHILDREN the best shot at becoming a productive and successful adult.

And if you think that the "Educator" is better equipped to decide what MY CHILDREN need in terms of discipline, and understanding of what it takes to be productive in society, YOU are the reason MY CHILDREN went to a private school. And that private school was VERY CAREFULLY selected for the second type of teachers I described above. Many of them were teachers with whom I have worked hand in glove, educating their students in the sciences.

And they, the teachers and administrators, in that school, and I, paid extreme attention to the problems the students had, including baggage they might bring from home, but HELD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. I don't know of any who are failures at life. Most are either currently pursuing advanced degrees, or working productively, many of them having chosen service sector jobs, where they can pass on the values we taught them, to others.

I doubt that "eliminating the trauma of an F" will ever engender those kinds of results.

You wish to get kicked, while you are down? I'll stomp all over you for your apparent assertion that "If you haven't taught in a public school, you don't know what is best for YOUR OWN CHILDREN". Teachers support the parents, and the students. Not either or, but both. And I know there are parents who don't care, are overwhelmed, are hostile to their own kids, etc., but if you ignore those of us who are engaged, involved, loving, and want what's best for our children, including REQUIRING them to be responsible, you do so at your own peril. As do all "Educators" arrogant enough to believe that their education degree somehow qualifies them to be parents, in our stead.

I didn't buy that when I had to hire an attorney to keep the school board at bay, while we home-schooled ours for a year, before putting them back into private schools. The public school SYSTEM is a failure, saved only by the occasional good teacher, who has stood firm and refused to be driven out of the arena. And, sadly, those are too few and far between. But the good ones don't presume they are better at parenting kids they see for one hour a day, than are the parents who spend many, many, more hours per day on average with their own kids.

And, frankly, most of the children of public school teachers that I have known have given a clear lie to the idea that THEIR PARENTS were in any way qualified to be parents. The degree didn't get it. And Hornetson apparently doesn't, either.

"If you haven't taught in a public school, you don't know what is best for YOUR OWN CHILDREN". Your impassioned comments not withstanding, my OP did not in any way imply this.

What is there in the OP of: 'Q: How many of you, and for how long have you been involved in public (government) education to feel qualified to comment', regarding "Eliminate the Traumatic "F" Grade in School" that would lead you to believe this?

Q: How many of you, and for how long have you been involved in public (government) education to feel qualified to comment

THIS led me to understand your viewpoint thus. I don't have to be a public (government) educator to know what's good for my kids. And eliminating that "Traumatic F" is not good for my kids. So, as a parent, I'm eminently qualified to comment on the subject. If fact, better qualified, I dare say, than ANY government (or any other, for that matter) educator who IS NOT A PARENT! Note, it doesn't take an education degree, nor education experience. It DOES require being a good parent. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Just out of interest - why would you seek to interrogate the posters on - apparently - their teaching experience, when the OP (meaning Original Post or Poster) asks;

"Would you like to have this policy at your children's school?"

Q.2. Why would anybody bother to "justify their credentials" other than as parents?

The audacity is however a typical example of "public servant and minor academia dick richard waving".

What does the response of any educational community have to do with my answer to your question. If you don't stay on topic people will compare you to a rabid animal.

Oh I see, you're defending your argument with a non sequitur response. You do realize that in most debates that is often considered a capitulation.

I agree Red. 34 seems to be missing the point!

34.5, or Hornetson? That seems to be he to whom RedFred was speaking, and Hornetson certainly is the one who keeps tossing out Non Sequiturs.

GA 4 • The absence of failure is not success.

This is what they have horribly wrong.

Attributed to Winston Churchill: "Success is going from one failure to the next without losing enthusiasm."

No, you have the question wrong.

Q: How many of you have been on the receiving end on the results of public (government) education?

No.

My Q: is correct!

That is because it is assumed (rightfully?) that the majority of posters have been the receivers and are not qualified to condemn the givers without fully been involved as they.

Look, let's take it to the extreme: Who is best to describe the experience of mortal combat? The player, or the spectator?

The winner?

Or should that be "the survivor"

No, no, no!

It's the loser!

Think about it.

You said mortal combat

"think about it"

Mortality is not instantaneous.

Think about it.

Well yes in the birth, life and exit sense, not usually "instantaneous".

However, in the "mortal combat" context, in which you used it; the fight to the death situation likely means they are probably a little busy to jot down their ruminations.

Then the de-mortal-ed one is hardly in the condition to jot.

Maybe your thinking of the "first blood" contest rules for 'matters of honor' among Gentry and Nobility?

Or Mortal Kombat

Look, let's take it to the extreme: Who is best to describe the experience of mortal combat?

I see the point your trying to make, but I like to think education is more than a game. But in you case, remember the student is also a player and not a spectator.

that the majority of posters have been the receivers and are not qualified to condemn the givers without fully been involved as they.

Sounds pretty similar to the state bar on who watches over attorneys actions and ethics.

The student is the player, but not in the context of my original post. It is the teacher on the front line each day.

My point is that the posters are the spectators that see only their limited view of the issue.

This not to say that their comments are without merit, but standing in the bleachers and chest thumping righteously will have little effect on the outcome of the issue.

While not espousing this author's ideology, it seems relevant that, "if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem."

Challenge: Put Up Or Shut Up.

Give up your current profession and lifestyle and become a government teacher for a couple of years. Then, return and give us the benefit of your experience.

I Double-Dare You!

As far as the trenches are concerned. I teach green engineers how to, when to and when not to use their tools. i.e. To say I do not know and not have them bs their way through life. As far trenches, there's strife in every profession. It can get difficult to butt heads, and give up and take the path of least resistance. But then you sacrifice your integrity or lose your job. Some of us would rather and have lost their job rather than compromise their integrity........now, which of the two choices would you choose?

But then you sacrifice your integrity or lose your job. Some of us would rather and have lost their job rather than compromise their integrity........now, which of the two choices would you choose?

Dude, I chose! Nuff' Said! Don't push that Hot Button!

The OP was plain and simple: Q: How many of you, and for how long have you been involved in public (government) education to feel qualified to comment?

Please spare me this crappola about the fine distinction of being 'involved'.

Let's cut to the chase: How much time have YOU, personally, not your mum-in-law or whomever, but YOU been in the classroom to have to make the choice of who passes and who fails?

Dude, I chose! Nuff' Said! Don't push that Hot Button!

I take it your not an educator.

And that hot button...you press it a long time ago.

I paid the price from teaching the youth that you can walk through life without knowledge. That its all a game, and that seems is what you teach, and there are no losers. BS.....That link, and the loses I took, the cost to me over, 1/4 million. Thats dollars.

And the only people that know what the price of integrity is are the people that actually have it....Seems you didn't know that.

Being a local industry leader and being a chairperson on the direction on how the local technical college should take and that also included instructors. That should count right. Oh, to the chase (4) years. I don't think you expected that did you.

Well,,,,

You talk as though we are not involved, we are..... and as you are finding out the hard way, we do know what we are talking about. Maybe your a product of the system, but you are not an educator, but you show the reactions of one, because we do not agree.

And its a good thing we don't walk lock step.....

Do you know the meaning of the phrase, 'Agent Provocateur'?

judging by the base words, yes, what does that have to do with the topic?

Or your position for that matter?

My point, precisely.

Absolutely not! Our society is already leaning too far towards mediocrity and unaccountability. Gone are the days where it actually matters whether a 6 year old T-ball player achieves some level of accomplishment by actually hitting the ball because he's been properly coached and has put in the practice time. Instead, we cheer all the same when he can't even swing the bat and hand him a "participation badge". For what? We reward him for simply going through the motions?

Too many persons do that each and every day here in America. Because of that, our great country is falling on its rear when it comes to our students making the grade in science and math. We have almost succeeded in coming in dead last of all the developed nations in science and math. Care to guess why? It's because we are a bunch of lazy, non motivated slugs that shlep though our lives with very little purpose. The reason why we have no purpose is because we're not challenged. When we fail at something, it's okay, we'll still be cheered and be handed a participation badge in the end. So why put forth the effort? What's worse is that too many of us are even demanding less from our youths. Where is the "Sir" or Ma'am"? Thank you and please? Heck, they don't even communicate with one another on a personal level. Instead, they text or talk to you via Facebook. As a nation, we are failing (with an F) in preparing our young persons for the responsibility of keeping our country great.

"Trauma" for receiving an "F" as a grade in school??? Of course we did. You are supposed to! It meant you FAILED!!! Fallen short, Did not meet standard, Was found inadequate! Did it affect you? Of course it did. It's supposed to if you're worth your salt as an American. It motivated you to do better. To do what you knew you should have been doing all along. It called you out for slacking off or being unprepared. Perhaps we should have had to wear it on our sleeve for a week like the scarlet letter.

But instead, some would have us place the child in "time out" (What a joke that is!) and then tell the child, "It's okay, you just didn't complete it. There will always be time to do things over again." That's essentially what this new system you describe will do. For those who agree with this system, follow that child into his late 20's and early 30's (when they are supposed to be the most productive and innovative) to see how that philosophy serves him or her. You will find that you have produced yet another aimless slug that will one day have to be taken care of by the government.

I say call a spade a spade. If you fail, you get an F. If you don't like the associated "Trauma" (give me a break!) that goes along with it, then get your butt busy and do something to change it! Then we'll have helped produce a productive and responsible young adult. If we are just lucky enough to produce enough of 'em, maybe they'll have some chance of cleaning up the horrible mess we left for them because we were just mediocre and were not accountable.

In my view of things, there ought to be a long period of pre-training where an abundance of encouragement and free praise is given for participation and effort. that adds both experience and natural suffering and approval in the childs early years. There should be a solid 5 to 8 years of this before testing begins.

We have a graduated system of education that increases in complexity and knowledge base in proportion to the brain development of the child, so that the child becomes imbued or steeped in the technical, social and cultural knowledge by the time they become adult.

Perhaps there are so many social and cultural influences in the childrens lives that it is completely overwhelming the desired effect of learning the 3R's. If you read such books as "Future Shock" by Alvin Toffler, where he discusses the rate of change in advanced societies, he notes that the rate of change is not just technological, but also social and cultural, and that can be tremendously confusing, as life in the 21st century is a complete melange of culture and social influences, all amplified by technology. These same forces affect the schools and teachers too.

We are no longer in the one-room school with a stern disciplinarian of a teacher. There is little time or room for a child being able to focus. They are fed suger, junk food and television in the first five years of life, and those are the most critical years of formation. (not to mention the overall decrease in breastfeeding time, and other traditional and natural developmental boosters, like nature time.)

The changes have to start at the very roots of our civilization, and teach the parents how to grow intelligent, stable, and healthy children. Almost everywhere you look there is a problem that negatively affects childrens learning abilitiy, long before they get to school, and long before they get to a testing phase in school.

Food quality is one of the single largest issues. Next is family stress, from income to racism to homosexuality, etc. Millions of families are losing homes, losing soldiers, lost jobs, and are faced with armed violence, drugs, and a massive peer group pressure due to technology amplilfication.

Many times in history there have been societies whose lives were torn apart, but typically those situations were monolithic, meaning that only one aspect was changing. In modern times, the rate of change in all aspects of life has a tsunami effect. If you are 70 years old, the technological, social, political, financial, and cultural total amount of change has doubled five times since you were born. (like compound interest)

We must understand all of this 'context' and root cause sources before correcting the system. I hear you, as you recognize the problems. Those types of criticisms are just the thing to feed back to the input, in order to correct the system... but if they are fed back in without proper analysis as to what it all means, and fed back in to the wrong spot in the system, then the changes will not produce the desired results. The analysis must correctly diagnose the root cause problems, and produce plans for effective corrective action. Those plans must be implemented at the correct location in the system, and in a timely manner, in order to produce improvement.

cheers,

Chris

You will find that you have produced yet another aimless slug that will one day have to be taken care of by the government.

And, who is the government?

You guessed it. It's you and me and WE THE PEOPLE!

Non sequitur.

Lions-One

Christians-Nothing

GA - weldeng449!

The sooner each young person learns that they will lose in life at some point, the better off he will be. I have been around youngsters who have grown up thinking that because they breathe and consume oxygen they deserve something. Once someone is past the age of 6 or 8 years of age, or maybe sooner, they get to the point where they should start pulling the cart rather than just ride in it because they exist.

Sometimes you will lose even when you do your best. Maybe when you do your "best" and still lose it is because what you are your best at is something else. I can desire and do my best at playing a piano, but if my fingers are too short, or I don't particularly like it, or whatever, my best will not be good enough to compete with someone who has the physical where-with-all, the discipline to practice with someone who is accomplished and the inclination to play the piano.

"How you think when you lose determines how long it will be until you win." Chesterton, Gilbert

I think it was Napoleon Hill who said that "in every failure there is the seed of a greater accomplishment".

Failing is a part of life and understanding that a failed event does not make me a failure is key to moving forward in life.

Part of our problem in the educational system is that we think a red mark is bad. A "red mark" is part of life and it let's us know what we need to improve in and should motivate us to higher achievement. We should also affirm the correct answers and the proper thinking used to achieve them.

Let's move away from mediocrity and thinking that it is ok to be average. Afterall, "average is the worst of the best and the best of the worst. It is the cream of the crap".

The Rascal Manifesto by Chris Brady, "I was born free and I intend to live like it. This means that I will live my life while I'm alive. No one owns me except my Creator. No one can put me in a box, a category, a social group, a voting block, or a classification. I am fiercely independent (interdependent). I know that with my freedom comes responsibility. I take responsibility for my own actions, and I hold the bar high on myself. I am not afraid to struggle, because it's the struggle that makes me great. I know that excellence always lies on the other side of inconvenience. I am a learning machine. I read, I confront brutal reality, I grow. Long term, no one and nothing can defeat me, because I will keep coming back, stronger and better than before. I will educate myself about the true principles of freedom, and I will strive mightily to preserve freedom for the next generation. I rely on no man and no government to provide for me. I will not follow the herd of mediocrity and victim-thinking. I don't follow herds, instead I run with a pack – a pack of Rascals. Let others bask in their privileges, as for me, I will invest them in my purpose. I will defy description. I will charge the hill. I will make a difference. I'm a Rascal"!

Two Thumbs Up!

Would this website http://www.urbandictionary.com/ be of help to understand the daily interaction of what your government school educator is confronted with?

Check out any random letter. Permit me to suggest 'E', Then Emo.

Recognize anyone? Expand and read more.

Don't stop with the letter 'E', but expand your inventory to the whole alphabet of behaviours to which the government educator is subjected during the forty-five minute class session, which realistically is about thirty-five minute/thirty student contact which must be positive for the student.

Perhaps government educators who do not know of Urban - should be made to do a course? Like to help them understand the jargon e-literate kids use.

I've used for years, but admittedly, mostly when it would be inappropriate to ask, or several opinions differ. It's a great and entertaining resource for any parent.

like ebonics.......your kidding right. Jargon like that came from being uneducated from dropping out in the first place.

No not kidding - every 'sub-culture' has it's own set of jargon. Masons, Hippies, Mods, Rockers, Surfers, Goths, Gangster, Bootleggers, Army, Navy, Air force, South Park, Homer Simpson.............. & every child had 'in words' that caused parents to say "What?"

Much of it falls by the wayside, but some becomes part of the language.

The analogy in my mind is; you're not going to be an effective English teacher in Italy, if you refuse to understand Italian.

"It's a fact Jack" or should I say; "It's real Dude", or "righteous", or "smoking", or "freaking", or possibly "sick" <recently causing parents to say Doh?

part of a language I understand. It keeps the languge alive. But not a language in it's self. And the term 'dude' being referenced as Mr. I always laugh at people who use that.

and people who come from carribean or other geographically isolated places have developed a 'patois' version of the language. it happens everywhere.. these dialects over time can actually become new languages. the ancient gods setting man apart from each other by 'confusing their tongues' is not the only language influence.

all languages evolve, and eventually become unrecognizable to their founders... like Olde Englishe etc.

the french in Louisiana speak 'Cajun', which comes from Acadian, where they immigrated from in Acadia (nova scotia) but was originally from France. I dont think cajuns and people from France understand each other very well...

Chris

There are funnier/stranger ones than that about. But my point was it doesn't take 10 minutes per class [as Hornetson alleged] to pick up what is meant, unless you are determined to be deaf or inflexible.

And you won't lead them into proper English skills if you can't demonstrate comprehension and conversationally respond (in English). Failure to 'comprehend' only makes having a 'secrete language' more 'advantageous', so deepens the 'game'. But I guess this is why it costs Hornetson 10 minutes/class.

A while ago I was in Newcastle upon Tyne UK, and "flavor of the month" amongst students was speaking Jordie as a 'private language'. Once they realised I understood, they fell back into English, well what passes for English among Novocastrians.

Bottom line is; these fads are 'social bonding' and fail in the technical. "Recognise their society" and they will default to English. Fail to, and you will fail to get to the technical.

So sorry about the rant, but in my view this thread is more about "F" for teaching skills than grading their pupils.

No I didn't actually speak other than English. Nor would I attempt to speak say "American gang" - as that would just cause amusement and escalation 'off topic'.

It's enough to understand them. This causes "brain engagement", which is redirect-able to 'useful things'.

Personally I think 'taking command' is one of the BS concepts in teacher training - like respect, it has to given. This applies from classroom to boardroom.

depends on the difinition of 'taking command' is. Some think it's talking louder or bullying.

I did say in 'teacher training' and there is a couple that use bullying by embarrassing, several 'shutting down' techniques and talking over the top of people methods. About the only one they had half right was the use of silence. But your silence has to matter before that works.

Your on to two of my managing secrets of getting information out.... "Silence".

One:

If there is something that is not quite right. something or more often someone is trying to pull something. I let them talk and when they are done, if I feel there is more to it, I hold my position and give them a waiting stare..... well they continue talking until they spill the beans.

And number two,

I found out "Silence" can be deafening if used correctly.

Finally, a glimmer of hope and The South Shall Rise Again.

From my engineering perspective, providing feedback to a solution is wonderful... BUT WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???

I was taught early on that when approached by a client to do a design, I should probe for the NEED and identify a PROBLEM. Then and only then run with the design process otherwise I will end up with a fantastic recycling system complete with collection tanks, pumps, piping, filters..... all for a leaky faucet.

The point is to solve a problem. That's what an engineer truly does.

So in the case of doing away with an "F"... it's a solution, but what's the problem? What other solutions were identified? How did this particular solution end up being at the top? What was the decision criteria?

I'm asking these things because I have done my best to identify a problem that this would be a good solution to and have failed. (on a side note I'm not at all discouraged or in a state of despair having failed to identify a likely problem )

"Would you like to have this policy at your children's school?"

No, I wouldn't like to have other people dictate to me with ill-functioning standards that my kids should conform to. That is part of the reason we Homeschool our kids.

We as parents are the ones responsible for the education of our kids and need to be highly involved in the educational process, regardless of the environment it takes place in; not some beauracrat or some ill-informed citizen sitting on a school board because they want to propagate an ideology or do social engineering with young, easily influenced kids. Many of these people dictating what standards should be instituted, the processes for teaching and the content of what is taught, are products of liberal, educational institutions. The result of that is a touchy-feely, mamby-pamby (whatever that is) approach where their young charges are not held accountable for their actions and a stooping to the lowest common denominator. After all, we wouldn't want to bruise their tender egos and hurt their precious feelings.

This does a great disservice to these young ones because life is not kind or fair and that is a lesson best learned sooner rather that later. Life; employers, economy, relationships, business, etc., will not wait for us to get our act together. If we aren't moving forward we are going to get run over by people who run business and organizations who have the mindset of personal responsibility and accountability.

Why do you think they push people hard in military boot camps? It is to weed out those who aren't tough enough in mind or body to do the hard things. The end result is a group of individuals who have what it takes to accomplish a mission or fulfill a purpose. A higher standard is always better than a lower standard, whether it be moral issues, intellectual performance or physical standards.

NOTE: I am not lumping all educators in a box that says they are all incompetent. I know of many great teachers who see their work not as a job but as a mission to inspire their students to greatness and fit for being a highly motivated and contributing member of society.

I've read all of the posts. The majority of you seem to have interpreted these new "I" marks as an alternative to failing (as in a pass), and that it is demeaning to your child or you or to the American way of life if someone gets an I instead of an F.

They must get a C or better to pass. (You don't pass with an I)

They must perform at the same level you did to receive your C.

It is going to take them longer, because the kids that studied passed the first time.

What is the real objection?