The Perils of "Open" Wi-Fi

Is it illegal to have your front door unlocked?

This is Rediculous...

Could be jail time if a thief breaks into your house and hurts himself. So maybe it should be illegal to have unlocked doors

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474025/Burglar-dies-falling-floor-window-following-confrontation-homeowner.html

Won't stop me from putting a 12Ga Slug into a thief's head if they try to break into my house... Heck... maybe I should booby trap the place while I'm thinking about it

Yup, looks like he is going to be guilty of manslaughter by verbal assault against an intruder in his house.

The burglar became emotionally distressed at all the yelling and smashed through a window to get outside where it was probably quiet and he could yell for police help.

Unfortunately, the burglar lost his footing, falling to his death, and the owner of the flat failed to provide a sports stadium safety net.

Of core snot; the pirate is the one who should be held liable.

Not in today's touchy-feely world. We must try to understand why the villain turned out that way.

Besides, there is no more room in the California prison system anyway.

I suppose the owner of the network could be held liable in the US under the "attractive nuisance" principle. But the penalty would be minor. And we ALL know that wouldn't suit the movie moguls at all! If they had their way, all such miscreants would be shot. NOW! Don't wait for dawn!

In Germany, the film company can take the owner to court and get substantial damages.

The Pirate will never be found, he is untraceable.

What is far more serious is that the Pirate could distribute and collect child porn, set up bots, collect money illegally.

On many systems, it will allow access to your computer as well, depending upon the way it is set up....

As already written here somewhere, will you leave your front door open and unlocked by day or night? That should answer your question.

No argument with any of that, Andy. And I tell anyone who asks (and some who don't ) that only an idiot leaves their network unsecured. But on the other hand, we all have the right to be stupid, even if it kills us. And face it, file piracy doesn't kill or maim other humans, so the penalties the industry wants just don't fit the level of the crime, where a home network owner is concerned.

Guess the moral is don't ever use Wi-Fi in Germany? Because if you leave it open for a second in a hotel room for instance, you'd be liable?

If the piracy was used to aid a white slave trade that resulted in a homicidal act? Should be prosecuted for manslaughter as well??? Wouldn't be stupid to leave it unsecured but at the same time, the responsiblity shouldn't be transferred to the wrong party! It keeps greedy lawyers in biz. It also means that next time you order two Big Macs at McD's, they could only serve you one since you can't control your eating! But you will probably sue anyway for discrimination of some kind or a violation of your civil rights to eat as much as you want but perhaps amended to eat in the privacy of your own home? OOPS! I forgot! U have NO PRIVACY ANYWHERE!

Anyone seen a blockbuster from Germany lately?????

You wrote, "But on the other hand, we all have the right to be stupid."

No, sir, I think that was taken away by the very state the home owner lives in, otherwise there would not be a pending lawsuit. Unless the owner of the network was complicit with the thief and it can be shown as so.

How will this impact all those businesses that offer free wifi for customers?

Will those owners be forced to be responsible for the ills of others?

I guess in the end it will be the bad deeds of a few that destroy the privileges of the many and will mandate that all free wifi spots be shut down.

You can't get close enough to my network to use it, and if you could the 8 dogs will probably be somewhat of a deterrent! (They give me time to lock and load)

I like the way you think!

Guess i need locks for the medicine cabinet, toolbox, lawnmower, oven... am i missing anything else or should i lock the toilet as well just in case someone comes in and wants to drown themself?

If you want to come in to my house to end your life, please let it be someone from the movie industry!

Or just about any of today's politicians. Just sayin, is all.

Mea Culpa, i amend the list to include all intelligent employees unfortunate enough to have coworkers.

Ahhh, the list goes on.....

DUUUUHHHH!

Certainly here, if you own guns, they have to be locked away safely to prevent them getting in the wrong hands.

The law sees a similarity, the one who leaves an open WiFi system is responsible..... Germany is not alone in that, so if you are let out to roam the world, do be careful!!!

Especially hard here with regard to child porn distribution.....here you goto jail.....and the perps are VERY happy to see you!!!

With regard to the other stupid statements, I wish that person who locks his toilet to get diarrhoea!!! What fun!!

Does Germany have any free wifi spots like they do in coffee shops here?

How do they manage the problem?

You are mixing up the word "Free" with the word "Open".

They do not mean the same thing, especially not with regard to WLANs.......

You register to use and get a one-time login......its that simple. They know EXACTLY who you are......how long you were online, when etc etc..

So i guess no one offers "free" Wi-Fi in Germany?

Your posts are sort of garbled, you obviously have your own ideas and nobody can get through these false preconceived ideas, even when explained......

Try reading your previous post when you are fully sober!!!

For this last post I answered correctly and told you how it works, I did not mention money.

Around Germany, you can guarantee on almost any street to still find "open" WLAN links, where the owner has not set up the WPA, but its simply stupidity on their part.....as he will be held responsible for illegal usages, as I also mentioned before.......

Child Porn being possibly one of many things that need to be stamped out as quickly as possible, here in Europe as well as where you live.....I have mentioned this also.......you appear to not read and comprehend any posts.....

Read and comprehend what everyone wrote! Perhaps you DO NOT?

To clarify, never wrote you mentioned money! Where????

Understand you explain how it is in Germany and other countries and agree that yes, there are repercussions of leaving the Wi-Fi unsecured but the question is why the owner should be held liable & be illegal for leaving Wi-Fi unsecured?

Btw, there are many in agreement that the owner's liability and negligence should be limited to certain degree and situations. Am posing ridiculous situations that if the similarity is applied to one case, then another, certainly you can't be naive to think that it will stop there before we limit the freedom of property owners everywhere?

For that matter, might as well illegalize blogs, forums, chatrooms & prosecute the owners of such if used as means to commit crimes of fraud, murders, etc...do you see where this could lead to???

And lastly, never said i locked my toilet!!! Do you understand sarcasm? Guess not!

Then please explain what you meant by "free". Look what you wrote in your post #21!!!

In my language, "free" means it doesn't cost anything. What does it mean where you live? Please explain!!! If you can.......

With regard to a locked toilet, you mentioned the possibility in your post #11, you wrote:-

Guess i need locks for the medicine cabinet, toolbox, lawnmower, oven... am i missing anything else or should i lock the toilet as well just in case someone comes in and wants to drown themself?

Do you forget everything you wrote so quickly?

Wakky Bakky?

Oops, i see where you mistake "wouldn't be stupid" when it should have read "would be stupid to leave wi-fi unsecured" But this is the only correction i make.

We lock away guns and secure the swimming pools due to incidents originally involving children. But here Germany, etc. are applying this "similarity" to any type of invasion? When are people going to grow up and assume responsiblity for their own actions? Oh that's right! They can't because they don't have to...We are teaching generations that it's ok to commit crimes because the liability is on the other person not on you! If you act like children, then we should slap you on the wrist and blame the other person! Grow up!

Then anyone who leaves their doors unlocked even businesses, stores shouldn't especially in Germany and these other countries! Otherwise it's an invitation for a burglar to come in, steal and if they hurt someone with the register, Why it's the fault of the business owner! Or worse yet, if they use the money to buy drugs and some poor child dies, it's the owner's fault! They should have known better than to leave the door open!

"do you offer the burglars glasses of schnapps and ask them their escape route so you can make sure they don't trip on the way out just in case you get sued?

"it's not my fault...they made it so easy for me to steal!" Stop protecting the criminals because this is what you are encouraging. Stop transferring the responsiblity to the owner because you can't catch the real thief! It's called an escapegoat!

I knew where this thread was going before i read any of the posts.

INMHO this is a very gray area. The person did enable a crime to be commited and in some remote way should be held responsible for that. The penalty must fit the crime though. In can be compared to (but not identicle to) leaving a gun unlocked, leaving the keys in your unlocked car etc. It cannot be compared to leaving your front door unlocked. The car or gun can concievably be used to harm another person. More and more today an internet connection is being used to harm other people. Child porn has been mentioned, internet scams, spam etc should all be included too.

The difference between "open" and "free" Wi-Fi has been addressed but nobody is listening.

Said my piece you may now return to your ranting.

"enable a crime to be committed" and things that can "conceivably be used to harm another person" need clarification for sure.

So, what does it allow me to own by your definition?

And what is the point of being good if you're going to be screwed anyway?

Ahhh, the penalty is less...

Yes, the internet is utilized to commit horrific crimes. Couldn't agree with you more! But to penalize for unsecuring a network?

Think how many people haven't renewed their security licenses around the world on their home pc's....

The law is full of such concepts and terms. Reasonable doubt, reasonable force, the definitions are set by precident and change over time. The law like any good system has to adapt and be somewhat pliable.

If I possess something which I use for a legitimate purpose, but which can also be used to cause harm, I must take reasonable precautions that it does not get out of my control. For example the "reasonable" precautions for owning a gun have changed drastically over just the last few years. A holster on my hip, or the bedside table is no longer considered acceptable. The rules for the storage and use of explosives in mining or construction have changed over the years. The carrying of a nail file was once considered perfectly acceptable on an airplane once. (See, sometimes the law sets the limit of acceptable in silly places)

The internet is a relativly new device and the definition of reasonable precautions for it's use are just now being defined for the first time. If it is illegal to transmitt certain pictures over the internet is it not also illegal to enable someone else to do that? The case we are discussing here, if it goes to trail, may well set the standard for that "reasonable" precaution. In fact this very discussion, if conducted sensibly, can also influence where the bar will be set. And then the next case will move that bar in one direction or another, etc. etc. That is how a fair and modern legal system evolves. To not consider as many possibilities and options as possible before making a decision or taking a stand, is short sighted. To put it in an engineering perspective isn't that how bridges fall down? Failure to consider some possiblity? The designer never considered that one day there might be 25,000 people on his bridge all stamping their feet at once.

You wrote, "The person did enable a crime to be commited and in some remote way should be held responsible for that."

What?

That is akin to saying that leaving your door unlocked, getting robbed, and it somehow makes you guilty for someone else's bad behavior.

That is just as absolutely wrong as stealing is. It may not be prudent for me to leave my door unlocked, but it in no way justifies someone from committing robbery.

Who or what has taught you such things?

Your example of leaving a gun unlocked is not the same thing as leaving your keys in the car. The reason is most people are ignorant of firearms and cause negligent discharges due to that ignorance. It is little different than leaving prescription drugs on the coffee table where toddlers are playing. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to understand the potential danger when you can easily take measures to prevent the problem in the first place.

However, keys in a car are much different because (unless the person is too young to know) everyone should have been taught that steeling is wrong. It is considered clear and common knowledge that you do not take other people's property without consent.

This seems to be a familiar theme among many people. That is, not having a clear understanding of right versus wrong and then blaming someone else for their willful ignorance. Has the needle on people's moral compass fallen off?

This is black and white to me.

hmmm... leaving the keys in the car brings a thought to mind. Police often set up sting operations to try and nail car thief's by doing just that, leaving keys in a unlocked car (sometimes running) to try and lure a thief to take the bait. So my question is this:

Under the thought process above, would the police be liable for a lawsuit if the thief who stole the car then goes on a run, killing/injuring himself, and possibly others? I'm sure this could/would never result in any charges against the police who set up the sting, and to think that the same situation could occur in private and the owner of the car be held responsible is completely asinine.

The answer is yes. Different courts have ruled in different ways in regard to this.

If you don't take reasonable precautions to make your house thief proof here, like leaving a door unlocked, the insurance may not pay out!!!

The same goes for an unlocked car......

Leaving the keys in the car, even hidden, removes all liabilty for the insurance company....

Only if they find out...

Here, they take the cylinders out of the door and examine them for signs of breaking in, no signs, they assume that the "Perp" had a key.

Sadly, some modern methods of opening a cylinder do not leave any traces.....

The same if a car is found again......

Is there an agreement document for CR4 that states something in the order that "all advice, recommendations etc that are given on the site that result in an injury, loss of life etc are not the responsibility of those who gave the advice, or the responsibility of the site itself?"

I didn't see anything in the "Rules and Conduct page"

Does this mean we can all be held liable if someone designs something (even if they misunderstood) according to advice they were given, and it kills someone? It seems this would be in the same realm as this transfer of liability crap were currently talking about.

If nothing has been written in the rules and conduct on this topic, perhaps it should be added in as a release of liability clause... I would hate to see CR4 caught up in a legal dispute over some frivolous lawsuit.

Hey, just bc you have a liability clause doesn't mean a damn thing these days!

someone will still argue and say you haven't taken all reasonable measures to prevent such an incident!

I still believe in leaving my doors open occasionally!

Any problems, talk to my SKS (only bc i live in one of the most gun-regulated states) yes, i keep it locked but close....

Chin Chin!

My front door is RARELY locked, unless we are on vacation. My two dogs take care of most anything I would worry about as far as a break in, they both have a very intimidating bark and growl and are eager to do both any time a odd noise or movement is heard/seen. If one of them rips out the throat of an intruder, I would hope the beware of dogs sign would be enough to keep me from a lawsuit... But if not, I might as well finish the job myself with the 12GA and deal with the consequence later.

You wrote, "I would hope the beware of dogs sign would be enough to keep me from a lawsuit."

Actually, that sign also implies that your dogs are dangerous. Cuts both ways.

My dogs, might lick you to death, and are the least dangerous dogs around... unless you aren't welcome, then you might want to read the sign.

I'm sorry, but it's not my problem if someone trespasses onto my property and gets him/herself injured/killed in the process. They were not invited, would be trespassing, and in this part of the world WILL get shot on site, no questions asked. This is how ALL my neighbors were/are. Heck, I got shot at a few times playing in the woods/fields of properties near the house I grew up as a kid, never got hit, but learned to stay low and run fast. EVERYONE out here is armed, and armed well, even my elderly mother has an assortment of firearms that remain loaded, just in case. But she also has a complete video surveillance system with night vision, and motion detection that I recently installed for her.

We played with guns for fun growing up. In fourth grade a buddy of mine brought in his knife collection for show-n-tell, 138 knifes in all, ranging from swords to swiss army. They were arranged all around the classroom on the chalk boards and tables, and all the kids got to go pick them up and play with them. This was not unusual.

What has happened to this crazy world?

I had a Sheriff once tell me that if I find (specifically an illegal alien) anyone attempting to break in (or already broke in) to my home, or place of work, to go ahead and kill them, dig a big hole, dump the body, fill it with Lyme, and cover. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that come right out of the mouth of the law... but things are a little different out here in these back woods. And I can assure you, that it does happen, and much more often than you might think.

I tend to agree with you. In Florida they have the Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine laws.

I like them and I think that they are good laws that have a wide birth when it comes to what they cover.

In my junior high school our science teacher brought in his musket and fired a blanks in the class room as part of a demonstration. The general consensus was that this was very cool. Today you could not draw the outline of a firearm on paper without being expelled.

The contrast of those two extremes demonstrates that we have socially lost our way. Schools were safe places when I was a kid and it was not unknown to have kids bring firearms onto the school property if they had reason to use them after school.

Today we have scanners at the doors and police cars routinely parked at the schools every day. However, our children are far less safe than we were at our age.

It doesn't take a certification in Six Sigma to ask; what's changed?

The safest community is one that's very well armed. Thief's beware!

Yes, let's keep it armed and STILL LEGAL!

In the UK the same. If you post a sign and someone gets bitten, you are liable, even if its a thief......

Over here not though.....

Basic security on a wireless access point is relatively easy. The first thing you can do is disable broadcasting in the wireless router. This means you will have to set the name of the wireless access point in your network settings on your PC. This protects up to the point of someone using a scanner to find your wireless router.

The next level of protection includes encryption and authentication. Explore your wirless router's WLAN configuration menu and what options are available, as far as encryption types, and on your PC's network configuration. Pick an encryption type that is available on both. Write all relevant settings and passwords down so it is easier to configure new PC's, Game Consoles, or guest computers.

Securing your wireless is prudent. I have seen a vehicle, late at night, crawling down the street and occassionally stopping, with the passenger holding an open laptop. Aside from their intentions and my "liabilities", I would just rather not share my bandwidth.

A near future article in Time magazine asks the thought-provoking question, "Is it illegal to loan out your sharp or blunt instruments?" It goes on to mention a court case in which a person who loans out his screwdriver/knife/hammer is being sued by a survivor in the case of a husband who murdered his wife with said instrument in a fit of rage during a domestic argument...

Give me a phreaking break. This is not the America I grew up in and fought for.

Hooker

Sounds like the "Nanny State" argument....Nobbody has stairs, sharp objects and everyone drives pedal powered NERF cars.....because Heaven forbid someone injure someone else, or worse, not prevent someone else from committing a crime.

If someone is dumb enough to leave their keys in the car, their house unlocked, or their WiFi unsecured.....why isn't the actual criminal at fault, instead of some "progressive" Liberal trying to stick it to the poor victim....instead of who committed the crime.