Global Warming: How Do Scientists Know They're Not Wrong?

Scientists all the time know that they are telling only half truth and they only propose a story to others. If you like it then enjoy it and tell others as great news.

No one dares to question those religious books, which others and not the writers, claim to be true and if you question the book then you know the next.

Scientists are most polite harmless creatures so why are you questioning them so badly? Call it science fiction if you like. I think they are better than Harry Potter stories but you still love the former than later.

Humans are the funniest creatures the universe ever produced to have fun. The universe is so happy that it is expanding in size each day with each laugh it has.

I am wondering why there is so much concern and controversy over global warming. We have survived such "disasters" before. Perhaps we should be more concerned over the "wobble-jump" theory of several years past. A drastic/dramatic climate change of that magnitude would make global warming seem like nothing. Emmanuel Velikovsky was effectively drummed out of the scientific community (by scientists) for even suggesting the drastic effects of these theories; now they embrace every new theory (like the ancient Greeks). Solomon said it best: "there is nothing new under the sun." Maybe we should be more circumspect and wait until more data is in, rather than to overreact to every new claim. Of course, that type of action doesn't beat the political drums of the likes of Al Gore.

Hi agua_doc,

I quite from you in post #12

• "I am wondering why there is so much concern and controversy over global warming. We have survived such "disasters" before."

While it is true the world has been both warmer and colder in the past it is the rate the temperature is currently changing that is the worrying factor. The sort of changes we are likely to see within a century in the past took many millennia to take place. If eco systems are to adapt and evolve to accommodate a warmer climate then it needs hundreds of thousands to millions of years not less than a hundred.

If you look at the data from ice cores in Antarctica you will find that not only is the current level of atmospheric CO₂ higher than any time in the past 800,000 years but it is currently rising some 60 times faster than it has at any time during that period. The only thing that could possibly cause such a dramatic shift in CO₂ levels over that time frame is us.

• "Maybe we should be more circumspect and wait until more data is in, rather than to overreact to every new claim."

We may not have time to wait till we are absolutely certain. We are already in uncharted territory and waiting any longer before acting will more than likely mean that the damage is already done and there is no way to reverse the process.

One of the important factors that many overlook is the latent heat that is involved in melting the ice sheets over the poles and Greenland. While these ice sheets are melting they are absorbing enormous amounts of energy but once they are gone all that energy will then go into the atmosphere and cause the temperatures to rise dramatically.

If you don't believe it try it yourself. Fill a large pot with water and ice, stick a thermometer in it and then place it on the stove. The temperature of the water will remain at pretty close to 0° C while the ice is present. The moment the ice completely gone the temperature rises rapidly till the water starts boiling.

If we wait till all the ice melts it will be not only cause roughly a 70 m rise in sea levels but it will be too late to stop the massive rise in temperatures that will follow.

A bigger question could be: Why are there those who vehemently want to disclaim it as true? Point to every flake of snow as disproof. Some would like to put it up for a vote.

Bob

Global warming is so bad the governments of many country's are scared to death and some people are happy smoking the world and bent upon tilting the balance of the world. There is no one to bell the cat and here cat is to bell itself.

This scenario is worse than you may think today.

But the human part is only a fraction of natures part.

The world has seen and survived many warmings and coolings : much warmer sometimes and much colder often. (Newest data in a recent "Science" publication with a lot of finely timeresolved measurements from Greenland icecores of the last 500000years.)

Human history is a history of wandering tribes and peoples driven by lack of food from change of climate. This lasted for at least the last 100000years. So why not tomorrow? (We know from DNA analysis of mitochondria.)

Extended cooling will be much worse than extended warming: (Russia, Europe and Northamerica will have very big glaciers again.

Extended warming will come because we simply are not able to counteract natures developments and the manmade part of the warming.

Does anyone think that Russia and China are interested in stopping a climatic trend that favorates them? Nor will most of the developed countries.

I would encourage everybody to get the best available education - especially in engineering - and a wide field of knowledge so that we have enough persons that can counteract the coming critical issues.

The situation will not be as bad as your burning-earth-picture, we know this from geological records of the time around 30 to 6 million years ago.

Europe had a climate like African savannahs, the relics are found in the central deposits of a spring in the crater of the big meteorite that did hit Germany araund 13 million years ago.

So we face a situation where there is much work to do, where there will be large relocation of people: there are bigger problems elsewhere.

I care about the situation but I think we shall invest our money elsewhere: growth control, healthy food production, rejuvenating old bureaucracies, creating a world-police to prevent single dictators to do more trouble than allowed and to prevent mighty states to act like school boys, and to reestablish some (unknown today) biological selection that will secure the survival of humans for more than a few centuries.

RHABE

We are talking about just these 100 years of ours, that of our children and out grand children. We all may live in different climate and perhaps my great grand children will be like Eskimos or Kalahari survivors or my become something else than humans.

Migration of people and formation of Israel has caused a lot of stress to the world and many such changes may become inevitable. Can we accept others all that easily in our own country. Most of the countries are very selective on who should live in their land. We are not the people of one world yet and still have very basic tribal survival instinct which inhibit those we consider unwanted others. However, I like the way world accept migration of some people, and there is flow of human feelings all around due to this interaction. It is not a small achievement at all.

I noticed this one.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Good stuff. I think you are both right - and for these next hundred years and beyond we need to strive to maintain a strong core of engineering talent to be able to effectively address the uncertain challenges the changes we are likely to see will present us.

The challenges of desertification, and reliable good food and water supplies, and generally doing more with less - aren't going to be handled by people who know how to make a good argument and assign blame - it's going to take people capable of working together not just locally, but globally, learning from and building on the ideas, the practices and experiences of everyone.

Hi

We the people of the world have to become one and do something good for each other. Each of us can start from one's own nation as problems in local are no less than problems of our world. It is every where.

Do we know the problem?

Do we know the solution?

Are we doing something for it?

If any of the three things make sense to you then talk about it. Awareness comes from talking. You evoke your inner self by reminding yourself of your goals and duties to the people who are helpless.

If you are selfish then do something for yourself, if you are not selfish then also do for others. However, do something, as there is no time to take rest. It is time to act and let us act as one force of the world and get together and tell your small or big success story, tell story of others who are doing it day in day out. We need to inspire the world and inspire ourselves to give greater purpose to our lives.

I always feel that people of my world are my family. I belong to them and they belong to me. India has accepted many civilizations to move in completely and live here as Indians. There is no such great example in the world. We have Parasi, Anglo Indians and Christians who came here long ago and lived. There were many Indians who moved to other countries to help spread civilizations and they did all that for a great cause. We also were lucky to have many people who came to live as greatest names like Mother Theresa.

It is time that we think ourselves as people of the earth and nationality of the earth and leave the narrow mindedness far behind.

Do we know the problem?

Do we know the solution?

Are we doing something for it?

We know the problem but we do not know if it is a problem and where on this world.

Some think we know a solution but reality says there is no solution.

We are doing something that has no realistic result except of burning a lot of taxpayers money.

RHABE

I read this somewhere some 25 year ago

It is better to do nothing than remain busy and doing nothing

If we know the problem and also its source and we do not plug it then we must be very special kind of people.

Ozone was clearly recognized and people took some serious decision for it. It is still a problem so we will have to work for longer on it.

Melting of Glaciers is also a real problem, and we see it happening and we know that the world is turning into Bermuda triangle and some will still say that it is not proved yet beyond doubt that we are doing it.

The poor world in ASIAN countries is now becoming more aware of the situation and more willing to be nature friendly, and it is for others to learn in similar way that something seriously wrong is being done at their place. If you think that all environmentalist are putting bull shit stories then why not ask them to go home? You are hearing them and getting scared for the next else what for this debate is so interesting one for any one.

We are not talking about capability of the earth to recover. We are talking about our survival in the era, when earth will eliminate us to recover in its total silence period. Earth will not care for us vanishing from its surface, and it did not care for others in similar way as we are not special to the earth in any way.

"If we know the problem and also its source and we do not plug it then we must be very special kind of people."

Dear Shyam,

why do you think (together with many others) that global warming is a problem worth of putting any amount of available money (Human energy) into it?

I agree that CO2 level is rising, I agree that this is causing warming.

But if I look only 1200years ago then I see a period that was much warmer and the then existing people had a very good living:

The viking people of northern Europe were able to sail to Northamerica ,they called the place vinland because vine was growing there - not at all near that place today.

The arabic people in Baghdad and related states were able to have one of the first states where science, universities, knowledge and support of daily activities by science was practiced. (Warmer climate bringing more rain could have driven this.)

So the only problem I can identify is the (may be) rising sealevel: this is not so clear as there have been low sea levels at cold and at warm climate periods and nobody knows todays how to explain this.

If we expect the rising sea level to come, then the next question is: are we able to stop this? I expect that we are not able to change anything.

I agree that it is necessary not to waste energy, to search for new and sustainable energy sources to be developed to a level that allowes the widespread use.

But how on earth do you think it possible to stop with heating or cooling of houses?

With burning forests I would suggest to declare all forests to military off-limits areas, anything else will not help.

Traffic can be manipulated to a certain extent but not so far that there will be a significant result.

Implementation of nuclear energy is too slow to implement and not accepted everywhere.

So we will have warming, we may have (likely) rising sealevels.

So prepare against this!

If sealevel is rising we will have to relocate people living near the seasides on low level land.

Governments are not able to act on a fast timescale: New Orleans had only a ridiculous protection system with the existing (longtime) knowledge that the next big hurricane will come. And this situation in a rich country - how shall act the poor countries?

That is my motivation not to put money into CO2 prevention but into energy saving and into better education.

RHABE

You've got some good points in your discussion - with every 5+/- deg F rise in temperature air capacity for carrying water vapor is approximately doubled. There are so many factors involved in modeling anything so complex as potential climate change - no one really knows what to expect.

"India has accepted many civilizations to move in completely and live here as Indians. There is no such great example in the world."

India isn't the only multicultural society in the word and I think Australia would give India a bloody good run for its money on this front. Australia is made up of an incredible diversity of cultures. According the Australian Bureau of Statistics Census data only about 36% of the population claim to have Australian ancestry. In other words roughly 2 out of 3 people that live in Australia are from other cultures or societies.

Can 2 out of 3 people that live in India claim to have cultural roots that are not Indian?

No, I was not talking for forceful occupation by other countries butchering out locals. I was talking about inviting others to move in. Was Australia formed in this way? I do not have much idea about it. Sure current USA did not come to existence in this way.

Wow! That's a very interesting distinction... I was thinking beyond Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Canada too are very open multicultural countries, but you are right it is not the "indigenous" people running the place anymore. The indigenous people in many places weren't "butchered" as you termed it - though USA had a very poor record and at many times engaged in actions criminal by current standards.

Would you think India as openly multicultural as the UK?

Dear Conscia

The early movement of people to Latin America was different and that was different time and different attitude to life system and value. I have been to many places to feel it.

I think UK is people friendly and so are many other countries. There will always be some problems that may look large but are actually very small and are protection mechanisms for each country to maintain harmony within their country. We some time have different value systems and it is hard to accept how others have different from ours. None of those are hard and frozen and can change in time as we feel OK to modify for a purpose or by understanding of facts, problems and solution to problems.

Once we become earth as one nation then every thing else will become meaningless. We will have only police and no army. The greater problem is that we are not even are fit to manage a country or a town or our home, so to talk we can manage the world as one country may sound unacceptable. However, most of the people actually belong to one nation attitude and they will not mind it. Others who are narrow minded and have control over power will never let this happen as that is the end of their ideology. They think of isolation and it is very natural to them.

People with power are more scared than the people without power else why those will go and kill the innocent people and children. Rarely we come across monsters who have fun in death of incapable to defend. However, they are there and world is not free from them and it will not be free from them even after millions of years. You can't change nature and they are part of it.

I think we are moving much closer and much rapidly towards each other, and to greater equality and that itself may be a problem to many as equality may be looked down as loss to them. The very basis question is with whom you and I can accept equality. I can not blame others as long as I myself have reservations. I have to educate my own mind first to ignore my own charm of superiority and accept equality with those have never experienced such thing in their entire life.

We all are conscious of the problem and yet move on to something that keeps the life going. Even if in life time one experiences such thing like I belong to the entire world and they belong to me is something most precious thing to happen. Some of you will do things and some will not, but it is good thing that we talk about it and have some chance in life to feel it in real act.

None of you are cause of the entire world problem, but you can be a little solution to some problem and all that thing matters a great deal. Don't blame any one and only work for small solution wherever you are for your people and for yourself.

Australia was first settled over 40,000 years ago by what is referred to as the Australian aborigines. The European settlement of Australia didn't however start till 1788 and was forced relocation of petty criminals from England along with marines and people to guard the prisoners. At that stage you could get sentenced to what was called transportation for as little as stealing a loaf of bread or a handkerchief.

While it is true that the Australian aborigines did get a pretty bad deal their current population is greater than it was when Australia was first settled. The big problem I believe is that prior to the arrival of Europeans at the end of the 18^th century they lived in a stone age subsistence culture with several hundred languages none of which had a written form. When I say stone age I truly mean stone age as they had nothing along the lines of ceramics or any form of metal whatsoever. For a culture to have some 40,000 years of cultural and technical advances thrust upon over a handful of generations just doesn't work and they have found it very difficult to come to grips with. None the less this is not what I was referring to.

After WW II Australia had a serious shortage of skilled labor and desperately needed skilled workers. We also have a low birth rate and until recently the death rate actually exceeded the birth rate. The only reason this has changed is due to the government introducing policies that are designed to specifically encourage an increase the birth rate.

As a result Australia had no option after WW II and if we were going to progress the only answer was to have a massive migration programs. As I said at first migrants were primarily from the United Kingdom but there were many from throughout the world. However, with the construction of the Snowy Mountains Scheme the skilled labor needed was not available in the UK and as a result the pool for potential immigrants was widened dramatically.

Australia still only has a population of 21,016,441 as of the time this was written and roughly two thirds of them state that they come from other cultures and have moved to Australia on a purely voluntary basis. The ultimate result is a very diverse spread of cultures, lifestyles, culinary styles, and to a certain extent dress.

Dear Mark

That is a good lot of information. I can understand it much better now. The British in that era were doing this even in India. They used to deport people to Andaman in the bay of Bengal and the deportation was known as Kala Pani or Black Water. I do not know, how the name come to existence but those people lived eating only coco-nut fruits that was plenty there and lived along with animals as most of them were vegetarians. Perhaps some might have taken to eat fish.

I have seen Alcatraz so I think it was much better to be left in Australia or Andaman than in the ion bar jails in Fan Francisco, USA. It does not matter now if the people moved there were criminals as from the work of Dr. Broka, criminal nature is immediate need of the and does not get transmitted hereditary. I will say that those there there as as good as any one on the earth and now it is your land so all can be just happy being there. You are going to face environmental problems like many other country in the same net so you are also part of the earth's problem and solution.

Thanks for communication and it was nice to read. I feel much better informed.

Hi Shyam,

The early days of the European settlement in Australia after the arrival of the first fleet on 26the January 1788 were very hard and the colony nearly failed. They did however hang on and as the population grew the colony's future started to look more promising.

The convicts were treated atrociously by their captors but some of them worked hard earning themselves a pardon and a grant of land that they could develop. One of the most famous architects in early Australia was Francis Greenway. He was responsible for many of the early architectural masterpieces and much of his work still exists. He was a convict that was granted a pardon for his work and he went on to play an important part in society at that time as well as the nations history.

One branch of my family goes back to the 19 century and one of my relatives was a governor of Bathurst gaol. The Bathurst goal was set up for the really nasty non repenting bad to the core prisoners that were hell bent on creating mayhem. From what I gather he was not averse to having the occasional convict that steadfastly refused to cooperate hanged. It was a very harsh country with the society of that time putting little value on life. I am glad to say that it has changed dramatically since then and while the country is still just as harsh society has become much more tolerant.

Back then the only way to get around was to walk ride a horse or ride in stage coach and the most famous company that operated horse drawn coaches was Cobb & Co. The company still exists and now operates as a bus line. Anyway one of my great great grandfathers was the last surviving Cob & Co coach builder when he died in the 1920s. My mother remembers meeting him a couple of times and recalls that he had one of those huge, long, grey beards that were popular in the 19^th century. Pretty much like ZZ Top and if they had Harley Davidson motor bikes in the 19the century he would have probably ridden one.

As you can see from the Cobb & Co even back then there was a fairly diverse mixture of races. Like most countries that that have many immigrants there is usually initial hostility towards their culture and presence but after about 25 years you are called a "tru blue dinkum di Ausie" regardless of where you came from. You will also find that derogatory, slang directed at a particular racial group end up becoming terms of interment.

Australia was initially a group of settlements that were effectively separate countries and it wasn't till 1900 that they decoded to join together and form a federation that is now called the Commonwealth of Australia. That means technically speaking Australia is only 107 years old. Another interesting point was when the colonies federated they needed to decide on a common language and while they eventually decided on English German was in there with a chance which again gives you an idea of the mix of the population even then.

On an aside you might find it interesting where the name kangaroo came from. When Captain Cook and his crew landed in Australia in 1770 they had a couple of scientists on board who were totally flabbergasted with the native flora and fauna. They had never seen anything like any of the creatures and plants they saw everywhere. Thy arrived in summer and upon seeing the bush fires Cook was heard to say "My God, we have found a continent of fire". Anyway they tried to communicate with the local aborigines and while pointing at a kangaroo asked "What is that?". They received the reply "Kangaroo" and from then on the name has stuck. The only thing is that in the local native dialect the word "kangaroo" translates into something along the lines of "What, I don't understand what you are saying?". That means if you ever come to Australia and travel to the outback you will see plenty of "whats" hoping around the countryside. You can also see a "what" on the national coat of arms and some of the coinage.

Climate wise Australia is not that unlike India with much of it in the tropics and large areas that have little precipitation. However, India covers 3,166,414 km² with 329 people km^-2 while Australia is 7,741,414 km² with 2.6 people km^-2 so there are plenty of places in Australia that you can go and not see anybody. Even though all the beaches are public property if you are willing to go a bit out of your way it's not impossible to find a beach that has nobody else on it. Mind you if the beach is in the tropics you will need to share it with box jellyfish and irukandji jellyfish plus the occasional saltie like Sweetheart. Of course you also need to think about the 10 most venomous land dwelling snakes in the world like the death adder and of course you can't forget the funnel web spider.

It's not really that bad and I would suggest that if the opportunity ever arises to spend a at least couple of months seeing Australia. If you only come to look at the night sky from somewhere that is totally free of light pollution, or pretty much any pollution for that matter, you will not be disappointed.

I like that "seeing the sky at night in AU". I love that kind thing even though I can never figure out how those heavenly bodies are placed in that form or what is that they are doing out there. Milky way always has been something nice for me to feel and some great structures to watch other than shooting stars once a while.

I thought Kangaroo was the real name and they are just "Whats" is a great idea.

I did read something about Captain Cook in story books. Land of fire sure it sounds, whenever I look at news about forest fire.

Cobb & Co was a nice idea and it is good feeling that it was your family business.

So in early time the jailer and jailed both might have suffered.

I will like to see some good pictures of architecture build by Francis Greenway. Looks to me that those considered criminal are the one who can accept greater challenges and have greater chance to survive on earth. That may be the reason than these people made their home land where none dared to survive.

Thanks for a lot of great information. I think you can write a very good book and become famous for writing factual history. Good.

Gidday Shyam,

· I will like to see some good pictures of architecture build by Francis Greenway.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article on Francis Greenway that shows some of his work.

· Looks to me that those considered criminal are the one who can accept greater challenges and have greater chance to survive on earth. That may be the reason than these people made their home land where none dared to survive.

Probably very much the case. Australians have somewhat of a reputation of coming up with inventive ways to solve problems. While most aren't afraid of hard work they would definitely prefer to find an easier way to do it and I think that is the driving force behind many of the things that have come out or Australia.

· Milky way always has been something nice for me to feel and some great structures to watch other than shooting stars once a while.

Saw a great meteor a few nights back. It had a tail that was at least 10° long and traveled across at least 60° of the night sky before disintegrating. It could well have been a Sagittarid meteor as it appeared to come from the right part of the sky and was fairly slow moving. The only trouble is that it was on the 15^th July which is right at the limit for Sagittarid meteors.

If I ever get my new telescope working properly I plan to mount a couple of cameras on it. The first one is a 1.3 Mp colour camera that will use the 1,900 mm main telescope and the second will be a normal 35 mm camera with something like a 55 mm lens. The plan is to use the normal still camera to do long exposures of meteor showers while the digital one will be used primarily for Planetary, Luna and Solar pictures.

I have been doing some experimenting and managed to get this picture of the Sea of Storms and the Bay of Rainbows on the Moon a couple of months back. The camera was attached using blue tack and the focusing was a hit and miss affair but I did manage to get a few good pictures.

I have been having no end of troubles getting the telescope to work and the initial telescope ended up being replaced because the distributor here in Australia just couldn't get it to work. The second one works better but has a problem with the internal cabling and needs to go back yet again. Evidently I am not the only one with problems and it all boils down to management making decisions based solely on financial parameters. All of the major telescope manufacturers have now moved their manufacturing plants to China and while it has kept the cost down they are all suffering from what can only be described as monkeys on production lines.

When will people ever learn? If you pay peanuts then you get monkeys! Just about everybody I have spoken with, that has had dealings with production that has been switched to China tells the same story of abysmal quality control. Many are now having to tolerate a fault per unit ratios of 1 and often even worse. You can't save much if you end up having to fix everything at leas once, not to mention the damage to your reputation. Frankly I am getting really peeved with this outsourcing of production to China and would definitely recommend to anybody thinking of it to forget about it completely. Either that or do the final assembly and quality control yourself and only use China to manufacture sub assemblies or components that are really difficult to stuff up. I can't see any of them being able to comply with certification rules if they outsource production to China.

Anyway, since I am new to astronomy and when I get the telescope working properly I plan to start a series of threads about what I have learnt, what is worth looking at and as many pictures as possible.

Now that I know a bit better about Australia, I feel like being there right in the history of time to perceive the past in present by collapsing the time and space barrier.

I did feel about the history of people when I visited Alcatraz, in San Francisco Bay. It is history frozen in Iron floor, Iron walls and Iron roof where people lived in solid Iron Gates and less than 10ftx10ft rooms and some of them in total darkness - called holes. There were some posters depicting the way these people were captured on simple charges like tax evasion or some other petty crimes as they were so clever that no one could ever catch them doing real crime even though all knew they were dangerous. Even from that Jail 2 persons escaped in thin air and no one knew how. Then some of them wrote books on birds, by becoming a bird watcher. Through iron bars some could see only boats in the water and bird in the sky. I think placing people in Australia and Andaman was a bit better choice as there was land to work on and people lived like pre-historic men and women (I do not know if there were any). I have read "Back to Methuselah" in which the inner instinct could make the body to know that survival is prime and then body made the believers to live 300 years as that is what they though is required for them for a reason of survival. I do believe in similar thing that if we tell our brain to survive somehow in distress then it will look for all options. We will have much greater chance to evolve survival within. In India we call it living with Yoga by meditating over our own minds and finding ways within ourselves. It is not fiction but a reality learnt in time that Yoga power can change the self to a higher self. Same person when drives the mind and uses power from within then makes the body to understand the need and reflect it on itself. It is not simply thoughts but a total control over the mind and its functions, so could be dangerous as well. You can burn your body in inner flames just by using brain. For ordinary people, it is simply a will power to help them a bit better.

Perhaps, in the early times, wars and war cries made people to acquire greater strength than now we can ever get from computer games. War also placed moral at level much higher for life-death and sufferings to be accepted as part of the life. I have holes in my ears and nose and these were drilled in my childhood by my mother to let me survive from deceases that may come from village life. Inoculation was not much of a practice 55 years ago. I was only one year old at that time, and hardly able to walk and they drilled by body in a painful way and put some sweet in my mouth to stop my cries which I simple could not do and could not swallow that sweet which otherwise I might have cherished. Now I know the value of that painful act of my mother on me, as that made not only me to survive, I do not easily fall sick but all my brothers and sisters in the family fall sick easily.

I often teach my brain that I can not afford to fall sick and it works much better. Perhaps, those who went and found new tough life in Australia also might have tough their brains that this is it and let us find way to live here and forget every thing else. People who are better prepared can face the disaster in much better way and very likely will face it and survive.

Now we are talking about the earth and we all know, the reason, and our awareness will make us to find ways even if only very small percentage of us can hit on the solution. It is not for all to play a greater role, and some will always emerge from the crowd like Francis Greenway.

I was wondering why Kangaroo were not found in the other parts of the world while Elephants, Tigers, Panthers and Lions were every where. You did not talk about these animals in your country. I was bitten by scorpion multiple times when I was 16 and it was very painful. I was not at all scared as even cobra bite could not kill my mother so I though I will not be affected other than suffering from pain. My mother believed that it will not harm her. My hand had swelling and it was sweating. I ignored pain by telling the brain that it is not my hand that I see in that deformed shape and I could sleep even in the pain. It took 36 hours to actually get rid of pain and I knew it is there, but kept on neglecting it. I was chatting with people as if nothing had happened and they were actually worried. I learned to teach my brain in early childhood when I jumped in fire and badly burnt my foot in deep hot coal and had blisters bigger than egg and wounds from punctured blisters all over my feet. I decided to ignore pain and that was when I was five. I slept nicely and my mother placed some medicine and I did not notice if it was hurting at all. Perhaps at that time I believed that my mother will somehow take care of me and I can go for sleep in the mean time by ignoring pain.

I think people in tough situation, ignore pain. Look the way they fought with tools in early times. Some will never cry at all in utter pain they may experience. I suffered in an accident and my foot was literally crushed under a truck tyre. Somehow, my bones were restored and they are still in parts - broken in that accident. I then wanted to face military training and in one occasion had to jump from roof to the floor. I knew the stage of my foot at that time. Knowing it fully well, I still jumped and did not experience pain. I think, being brave is much better than being too much scared. People with disability are more brave and have greater chance to survive and can contribute in life much better. Disability makes people to trust more their brain and believe in power of whatever resources they may have to put to use and believe in themselves much more than those have no disability at all or those who never ever experienced lose of self in life.

Ignoring pain is something you must be very careful with and it is fraught with danger. Pain is an important feedback mechanism and it's your body's way of saying whatever you are doing is causing damage to your body and that it that is more than likely irreparable.

Pain tolerance varies dramatically between people but in general women have a higher tolerance to pain than men. Most people think this has to do with the pain that is involved with child birth.

As I pointed out the pain mechanism is meant to force you to stop doing what ever you are doing because it is damaging you body. However, in certain instances stopping may be even worse so you body has an emergency fall back mechanism that allows you to carry on. What happens is that if you are in pain and insist on continuing you body will decide that it is critical that you carry on and block the pain sensation by secreting hormones called endorphins. This is what is commonly referred to as pushing yourself through the pain barrier or getting your second wind. The problem is this mechanism is only meant to happen when stopping would result in more damage than the damage that is being done by continuing. It does not prevent the damage it just temporarily covers the pain and if you do it regularly like many athletes do, you and up causing irreparable damage to your body.

The press normally only publicize the positive achievement of athletes in their prime but if you look at what they are like when they reach middle age you will often find the results horrific. Worn out knees, muscle atrophy, skeletal damage, cartilage damage, parkinsonism and the list goes on. I worked with a gold medal winning Olympian that ended up in a wheelchair in her 30s due to the skeletal damage done all for the sake of sport.

Another problem is associated with the way endorphins block the pain. They do it in exactly the same way narcotic analgesics like morphine and like morphine are addictive. I have seen several people that have become addicted to endorphins that just had to have their fix. I think the worst was a jogger that needed to go jogging at least 3 times a day and carry on till he pushed through the pain barrier and got his fix. I once saw him go out jogging in full sun with no sun protection or water when the temperature was 42° C.

Put simply if it hurts then it hurts for a reason and your body is telling you to stop what you are doing because you are damaging it.

Dear Mark

Yes, you are right about over using the body and getting into problem. What I am saying is that if you understand it and there is no way out and want to help yourself them you can still find ways which pain may force you not to act upon. Take the case of a person who is partially burnt in forest fire. By ignoring pain and moving for safety is much better then to give up calling it a day.

The people who survived tough situations controlled their Harmon and preserved their energy required for their other immediate need. If you say, that I can't work because I am hungry, then you remain hungry all the time in that trapped land. Sportsmen and sportswomen often know pain and over use the body beyond the capacity of the body itself to burn the body, which is to be avoided in every respect and this is so for the Yoga as well. That is why one needs an Yoga Teacher who knows the limits.

I have been working almost 18 to 20 hours daily for the last 25 years, and learnt to keep the brain calm and concentrate on the work for real results. This worked much better by organizing walk and physical exercise, sleep, and relaxations in between properly. I am sure this is extra work on the body and must have some negative effect, then small risk is always taken for a purpose to achieve. Value system for yourself governs such things.

Meditation effect for betterment of life can be easily seen in common people in India. Art of living is practiced by many saints in India and they propagate their ideas by teaching in large gatherings. Perhaps, formation of groups and living together has been one such thing that made people to survive much better. The people who could not initially make themselves a good society member, finally formed a society for their survival when it was felt essential to survive. Change of mind makes things different for the same person or for a group of people. Smaller groups will always find hard to face problems from larger groups.

There has been a very interesting case in India recently. A section of Hindu society, called Gujjars (generally farmers and dairy owners, who control the entire milk supply of the country), recently organized and caused serious problems to the Government as these people blocked the roads and burnt the busses and did not allow people to move and also killed few by burning people to death. What is surprising was that they were demanding to the government to accept them un-organized weaker and suppressed society unable to survive and to give them reservation as the oldest tribal society status. Those benefits government intended to give to those who have really no means to come up and not to those who can show power to halt the country and cause problem to the entire nation. Such organized acts on large scale are seen in other countries also. People of a group want more than others in the same country by showing their numbers. Whenever people of different identity form a society, it is like a sleeping volcano, which may erupt any time.

There is local phenomena and there is global phenomena. We try to build understanding with unknowns and this always has been the case, and yet we limit ourselves so badly and hardly care for the survival of the society beyond out present needs.

"Migration of people and formation of Israel has caused a lot of stress"

Hi Shyam,

Israel is a good example to show that today it is difficult to come to a solution.

But there are other examples that we do no longer consider as problems, partially because these times are forgotten:

All Europeans moved into Europe in two big invading? wave, the first 100.000 years ago the second 20.000 years ago.

The greeks invaded the part that is today Greece (and other parts) in minimum three big waves, the etruscans came from what is now Turkey, the Turks came from beyond the Ural mountain. The early american people came in in 4 different waves longtime before any European came, then came the Europeans to the Americas and now are coming the Mexican to the US.

There are many more examples any of these full of war, criminal acts, murder and any type of difficulty. The cruelties are no longer important after some time and the survivors are integrated into a modernised population.

Sometimes integration is fast (3 generations) sometimes it takes thousands of years and is not complete (the Ziganes or Sinti or Roma as they are called today in western Europe came from your country (do you know the time, I heard about 4 to 6 thousand years ago).

In any of these examples the newcomers brought sometimes evil (illness) but in the long run they together with the old inhabitants became much fitter than the original population.

Look about the astonishing density of famous musicians, physicists, chess players, stock-exchange experts and so on from Hungary: there is a mixture of many many different people - I suppose since earlyest european invaders.

So I am convinced that those that are willing to accept some foreigners coming into their country and sharing wealth and fortune those will survive for longtime.

And the nazi-type thinkers that pretend that one tribe only is valuable will be extinct.

But this will work only if we prevent single malevolent dictators and governments to dictate their line of thought to the rest of the world.

So let us work together to achieve a positive outcome.

RHABE

When was there a system of biological selection in the past and how did we lose it? Also, who gets to determine the criteria for re-establishing this biological selection? I vote for college graduates with a tiger as their mascot. A slippery slope.

Biological selection? Survival of the fattest?

No one wins unless everyone wins... and how do we ensure everyone wins?

And though you know none of this is true - try to understand the ways in which it could be true – and how reasonable, sane, well educated persons could possibly believe such a thing?

You are absolutely right, a very slippery slope, and I don't think that mankind has the ability today to act careful enough to reestablish biological selection.

We lost it first at developing stoneage weapons, then with first technology of designing shelter and protection, then in inventing agriculture, then cities then technology of production then medicine and ? finally TV and computers. We gained some advantages and lost a part (not total) of biological survival (Darwinian) of the fittest. And in changing pretty fast the circumstances that define survival or early death we may run into system instability.

This I think much more dangerous than any type of global warming or cooling.

RHABE

Dear Rhabe

Equality is in the sharing of our decision making power with others who differ in every respect from us. Democracy is just that kind of thing. We are sharing the world now, but limiting the decisions making power to ourselves in tribal nature and have no common platform for all and is the main cause of problem and it also breeds a feeling of segregation of society which otherwise can be wonderfully just one.

They trouble with the global warming lobby is that the globe is warming but not for the first or even the last time. The trouble is that the two voices, the CO2 v Sun Activity, do not get a balanced hearing and the politicians will always court the loudist voice. Admitting there was nothing they could do to stop the sun doing what the sun does best would smack of a Canutish attitude which is not a very politically correct way to go about things. The whole thing is kept on the boil by the media who need to sell papers and air time. Take a look at informed data and make up your own mind the real reason for the warming it was pedicted a long tome ago long before it became fashionable or correct. But it sure gives a good reason for price hikes.

We can stop global warming, the question is do we want to given that it is a natural phenomenon.

Cooling the earth with a giant sunshade in space is just one of the interesting ideas that was recently reviewed in some detail in The Economist.

The conclusion of the article was that we could stop global warming with sunshades or with other technologies, but we would be playing a dangerous game because interrupting the earth's natural warming and cooling cycles has never been attempted.

Here is the link to the article and a few quotes:

http://www.economist.com/search/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8765930

"If man is inadvertently capable of heating the entire planet, surely it is not beyond his wit to cool it down as well? Although most climate scientists do not like to talk about it, cutting greenhouse-gas emissions is not, strictly speaking, the only way to solve the problem of climate change. Just as technology caused the problem, it might also be able to help reverse it. The use of planetary-scale engineering to counteract climate change is known as "geo-engineering".

And then there is the danger of unintended consequences. Climate change is arguably an experiment which mankind has unwittingly found itself performing on the planet. To start a second experiment in the hopes of counteracting the first would be risky, to put it mildly. "

Cajun has it right. If man can cause global warming, man can cause global cooling. I am looking forward to global warming if it will mean a greater geographic extension of temperate climate conditions. In the laboratory, I cannot get carbon dioxide to do anything some people claim it is doing. However, it is easy to get water vapor to do everything those people claim for carbon dioxide. Perhaps they have forgotten that water vapor is as plentiful as carbon dioxide during combustion. Generally speaking, the white smoke emanating from factory smokestacks and automobile exhausts is water vapor. The black smoke is soot (incompletely burned carbon and other stuff). The carbon dioxide is invisible. I go along with the carbon dioxide scare because it seems the best way to get people motivated to adopt alternate energy policies.

Orbital and Millennial Antarctic Climate Variability over the Past 800,000 Years

http://www.sciencemag.org/sciencexpress/recent.dtl

These articles have been published on June 14th and july 5th at the above site and give a whole bunch of new information related to this discussion from ice core analysis covering the last 430000years.

RHABE

Hi RHABE,

This is just a suggestion and is not just directed at you but all those that supply links that require subscription fees to access the articles you are referring to.

Unfortunately we can't all afford the money and time that is involved in subscribing to sites that require subscription fees to access the articles. As a result it would be greatly appreciated if you could include a brief summary of the findings and any conclusions that are drawn in the articles when referring to articles that require a fee to access.

Without this we really have no idea of what you are trying to get across and in most cases don't even know what you are talking about.

Hi Masu,

you are absolutely right with your comment.

I did not read the original article and was not aware that the link that was given there requires payment.

I did write an email to the responsible author and asked for a copy of the article.

As the copyright is with the publisher I have no right to publish a copy here or at any other place.

What I can offer at this moment is a copy of two very detailed graphs (one from the mentioned article the other one some years old) The older one with data of CO2, CH4 and dust concentration in the atmosphere and temperature on the surface of the southern atlantic (measured as oxygen isotope relation) versus time. The newer one from the cited article includes 1.excentricity, 2.inclination, 3. precession of the earth, 4. captured energy from the sun (if sun is constant), 5.CH4 and CO2 in antarctica, 6. north atlantic iceberg index, 7. watertemperature in the mediterranean sea, 8. north atlantic deep water, 9. arctic surface water in the mediterranean sea, 10. antarctic deep water, 11. antarctic temperature 12. index(?) for sealevel and temperature all these versus time.

I will make a summary as soon as I have the original article.

Anybody who wants these diagrams should send me a request to rhabe(at)onlinehome.de

I have additionally my own private collection of reasons for warming or cooling and some time delays and some feedback mechanisms. This will go into a separate discussion here.

RHABE

I think it will be an interesting information. Kindly put it if you can put your hand to all that. Good. If we analyze things scientifically, then we can understand things much better. Even if the data is not complete and inconclusive, it is worth looking at the trends.

Bermuda triangle is under going loss of magnetism and that was very interesting information. This is happening very rapidly and is observable. Flux gate sensors have been used for earth magnetic field surveys in 3D at many places. Data shown in National Geographic over Bermuda Triangle shown real decline in magnetic field in that particular zone. If all that can change the climate of the earth is not known. Perhaps many such triangle may exist or may come up and go in time like earth tremors or it may be that magnetic core is drifting to different side and has very slow wave like phenomenon and is motion is affected by migration of material from bottom to up side in volcanic activities. If earth core and earth surface experience change in activity then inner molten matter current may also change and this may reflect in change in magnetic field on the earth surface. Something serious may be awaited to happen in the sea or on the earth.

Humans are so smart, yet so flawed. We behave much like a frog, which can be put into a pot of tepid water, then slowly taken to a boil.

As long as the change is not abrupt, the frog will stay in the pot and be cooked.

A reasonable person would look at all the data coming in from many disciplines and notice that they predominantly have their arrows pointing in the same direction ->Known Greenhouse Gasses AND the Earths temperature are both increasing at unprecedented rates, while reflective ice is being rapidly replaced with heat-absorbing rock and water.

However, like the frog, we will find umpteen thousand reasons to live in denial until our future here is cooked. Once we actually face mass starvation, ruined landscapes, few other surviving species, then we will decide to change our lifestyle and try to eke out an existence within the meager remnants.

... how many of us truly believe in the "Precautionary Principle?

The irony here is just great:

"But since nothing in science can ever be proven with 100 percent certainty, how is it that scientists can be so sure that we are the cause of global warming?"

"Isaac Newton had something to say about all this: In his seminal "Principia Mathematica," he noted that if separate data sets are best explained by one theory or idea, that explanation is most likely the true explanation. "

Then there is a link to an article that says:

In fact, scientists have alternative explanations for the anomalous warming on each of these other planetary bodies.

The warming on Triton, for example, could be the result of an extreme southern summer on the moon, a season that occurs every few hundred years, as well as possible changes in the makeup of surface ice that caused it to absorb more of the Sun's heat.

Researchers credited Pluto's warming to possible eruptive activity and a delayed thawing from its last close approach to the Sun in 1989.

And the recent storm activity on Jupiter is being blamed on a recurring climatic cycle that churns up material from the gas giant's interior and lofts it to the surface, where it is heated by the Sun.

First we are told that the most likely explanation is one that covers all data sets, then we are given different reasons for the current warming of Triton, Jupiter, Mars, Pluto and Earth. Classic doublethink.

I have two main criticisms of the articles I have read on the topic of climate change.

1. We never hear what assumptions have been made.

2. A correlation between global temperature and CO₂ levels doesn't prove a causal relationship.

I think the simplest analogy is the Ozone layer destruction and UV rays coming right down towards earth. We know that the holes are drilled and it is spear heading towards us on earth. It is going to ionize the air and carbon di oxide and will form radicals that will enter our houses safety zone and slowly into our lungs and body. These will change the physical system from skin to blood, bones and all little solid we may have. We are being polluted right down inside our body just by this simple thing called Ultraviolet. Now, we also have other things happening as we all are puffing the earth like a cigar so something more to be expected out of even if you close your eye.

I love that FROG analogy of getting cooked by own choice and by accepted ignorance. The developing world has become more conscious and is willing and contributing. The developed world even now is bent on justifying the dirty fun game like drilling hole in a boat's keel in which they are boating in deep sea to enjoy the last possible game between them and the hungry sharks.

Population of India is 3 times than that of USA and out fuel consumption is only a small fraction to that of the fuel consumption of USA. What is that the USA is doing with 20000 billion barrels? Smoke it all. USSR is also closing behind with almost 80% level to that of USA and soon may be equal if not more. India has not reached second digit yet.

These two big powerful countries in the world use so much fuel that the remaining world may look so coooooooooooool enough. Above all that there is this "I don't care attitude". The greatest powers are also seen in the form of greatest problems for the entire world.