Of Gum and Wrappers: Newsletter Challenge (10/16/07)

The acid in your saliva along with the 2 dissimilar metals (the wrapper and your fillings) creates a miniscule electric current.

Your son, brought up with good dental hygene practices (including low sugar chewing gun=m) has no fillings, and hence no pain.

I think you are right that no assumptions should be made about age and their dental condition, though I think that age will be part of the answer, after all the papa may have left his false teeth out.

Regards JD.

Sugar is still the food of choice for children.

So I think rather it is the dental practice of using Ceramic fillings instead of Mercury fillings.

tom

=-==

The question poses the idea that there will be pain but does not describe the source of pain. One respondent suggested an electrical reaction as the source of pain, but this is highly unlikely. I would expect the pain referred to, is a product of the force of the teeth hitting the solid wrapping layer over the gum. In this case the expected pain proposed by the question, could be considered coming from the older heavier wrappings which do not give as much. The newer wrappings are thinner and less of barrier to the impact of the teeth. When I have bit into foil, like when eating a Gyro, I get no such pain, but I am only annoyed by the odd sensation that there is something inconsistant in my mouth.

Though, I am surprised that the boy is not annoyed by the paper swimming around in his mouth.

Try bare aluminum foil. If you have any metal fillings and the foil comes in contact with the filling you will reverse your doubt.

AH

Yes, I have fillings. Never experienced anything.

Are they metalic fillings? Or did you have root canals done on every tooth?

Yes they are indeed metalic fillings, 4 of them originally. Had two of them fail with age, replaced and eventually the tooth died, but originally 4. Had one which after being replaced was sensitive to hot & cold for about 8 years before it died. Got me to stop using ice in beverages. Discovered how good cola tastes if it is not ice cold.

I'd hope that you'd have learned to enjoy or enjoyed more than the past, the cool basement temperature of real beer. Now Guiness is iced in the US. Where will we learn that ours is not the only way?

Rich

That's interesting Rick. Being of 'a certain age', I still have some amalgam filings. On very rare occasions, metal comes into contact ( maybe foil from a chocolate bar, that kind of thing) and the feeling is very real, and definitely not pressure induced. The science behind electrolytic reaction seems sound (?). It certainly makes me wince, and leaves that 'metallic' taste. On the other hand, maybe all that mercury has just got to me ! To put that in perspective here, my interest will not extend to chewing some aluminium foil - the very thought makes me suck my cheeks.

On the other hand, maybe all that mercury has just got to me !

Now Chris, the American Dental Association says that Mercury Alloy amalgam fillings are perfectly safe. Therefore, with my mouth full of amalgams, I must be perfectly sane!

Hmmmm, maybe that only applies to American amalgams. Your British amalgams are probably quite toxic and you are really Mad as a Hatter!

You obviously do not have any metal fillings. From experience, I know for a fact that the mini-battery effect is correct.

Signed - Metal Mouth

Look Ma, no cavities!

Actually, he just may not have any amalgam or metal based fillings. Now the composite resin fillings are replacing the old metal fillings.

The older metal fillings, as I think the first poster noted, causes a minute electrical current that adversely stimulates the nerve endings of the tooth, which are accessible through the porous dentin portion of the tooth. When the tooth is routed out for a filling the dentin is exposed and provides a channel for stimulating the nerve.

Anonymous Hero forgets his password again....

Kudos, AH. Best, most complete answer so far. Now what will we do the rest of the week?

Pardon my rant, but is this the best that CR4 can come up with? I submitted what I thought was a very clever challenge several months ago, and have heard nothing back since the guy said he would approve it and pass it along to the editor. He did have an objection that it was too vague and could lead to multiple answers. On the other hand, we get junk like this that is just WAY too easy, so easy that it is completely answered in less than 5 postings. Even the first two postings got it mostly right, but you put it all together and added the bit about the nerve endings. Bravo!

When will we see some REAL challenges? C'mon, guys, I know you are out there! Step up and submit them to Chris at CR4, but keep it short, or it will get kicked back to you. Also, your challenge should have only one unique answer, or so they say, although we have all seen plenty that were vague and had multiple possible CORRECT answers.

Hey all you CR4 readers: I am wondering, what would you rather see, a question that had multiple possible correct answers, or a challenge with only one possible answer, but was so easy that it was answered correctly within the first few minutes of being posted?

For your consideration, and since this one is basically already solved, I will post my challenge question below, since it apparently is not going to be posted in the Newsletter.

Nice one Guest. You've given an almost indisputable answer to the question as put. Hopefully this will descend into discussion of voltage generated etc. It still has lots of potential ( sorry, the puns just seem to happen). For those interested, Del the Cat has launched a new discussion/competition for home-made batteries. Whoops, sorry Del, 'cells'. I have no idea how many volts or amps I can get in my mouth. I'm looking forward to taking notes here for when I attend my next check up in early November.

OK, as promised in my posting above, since this challenge was basically wrapped up (pardon the pun) in the first few postings, and leaves us nothing to do with this challenge the rest of this week, I am submitting for your approval, answers, speculation, and criticism (go ahead, I can take it) a "Challenge Question" which I submitted months ago, but has yet to see the light of day in CR4. You can tell me if this is too vague (possibly), or too easy (could be for some of you). But this really happened to me, and I thought it interesting and worth sharing in this form with the rest of you. And so, without further ado, but without giving the answer just yet, here is my question as originally submitted it (with Chris' response preceding the question):

To: STL Engineer

Hi STL,

A good one, as always. I'll kick it over to the Challenge Q team.

Thanks,
- Chris

From: STL Engineer
Sent: 07/31/2007 4:12 PM
To: Chris Leonard
Subject: Challenge Question for your consideration

Ooh! Look at the pretty lights!

You are in the lobby of a major corporation. Hanging on a wall is what appears to be a modern sculpture, around ten feet or so long. Its primary features are twelve red lights, lined up horizontally in two groups of six each. Some are on, some are off, in an apparently random fashion. When you look back at it later you notice that some of the lights have changed. After you conclude your business, as you exit you notice that the lights have changed again, but with no easily discernible pattern.

What is the real purpose of this "sculpture"?

where I come from we call the red thingy lights on the top the "up arrow"

and the down thingy lights on the bottom the "down arrows"

and they make the boxes with the slidey doors go "up" and "down" respectively.

Good one! My first inclination was that it was a clock, but 2 to the 6th = 64 and 2 to the 12th = 4096, which have no relation to seconds, minutes, hours or days. So, I think not a clock in the classical sense.

My second thought not arrived, at least not yet...

AH

My second though has arrived. Why not a clock? There is enough binary information for a clock in both hours (12, not 24) and minutes on a per day basis.

Not a very user friendly clock arrangement! Usually the LEDs are arranged so that the digits they represent are segregated. For instance, one LED represents the tens of hours, then there would need to be 4 LEDs as a group that represent the hours, 3 LEDs in a group for the tens of minutes, and 4 LEDs for the minutes.

AH

Hi STL

It is a binary digital clock. The first six lights can show the hours and the second 6 are just enough to give the minutes. If all 6 are lighted they represent 63 minutes; for 59 minutes you will have 111011.

Try again.

Sarel

Try again.

Yeah, too easy. Anonymous hero got it early yesterday and I posted the full answer right after that, which make me wonder why you are posting an answer a day later, with nothing new to add. So what is the point of your post? Is "Try again" meant to be an encouragement or a sarcastic criticism?

far too vague

In answer to the 'light sculpture' question.

Are the lights a silent 'paging system'?

Each person has his/her own pattern of lights to respond to.

First impression is twelve lights could represent some type of time piece and being in a lobby of a major corporation, this could be a practical application as well as making an artistic statement. I'll continue to think on this a while.

I'll continue to think on this a while.

Well, don't think too long. I already posted the answer in #12, 4 days ago, since someone guessed correctly shortly after I posted it.

By your screen name, UMR 70, I am guessing you went to engineering school in RollaMO, correct? The event described in my answer was an ASME field trip. Did you grad in 1970 and what major? Send me a private message via CR4 by clicking on my screen name (STL Engineer) if you want to discuss UMR.

Well! Either Mr. Anonymous Hero (AH) is just too good, or this "challenge" of mine was just too easy, like the Gum Wrapper challenge. Here is my Answer, and I guess I better start working on a harder challenge that has a unique answer also!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ooh! Look at the pretty lights!

You are in the lobby of a major corporation. Hanging on a wall is what appears to be a modern sculpture, around ten feet or so long. Its primary features are twelve red lights, lined up horizontally in two groups of six each. Some are on, some are off, in an apparently random fashion. When you look back at it later you notice that some of the lights have changed. After you conclude your business, as you exit you notice that the lights have changed again, but with no easily discernible pattern.

What is the real purpose of this "sculpture"?

Answer:

The "sculpture" is actually a truly digital clock. Each set of 6 lights is a binary representation of a two digit number, one group is hours (24-hour format), and the other is minutes. So that if "- " is off (zero) and "*" is on (one), then:

( - * - * - - - * - - -** ) would represent 2035 hours, or 8:35pm. Apparently, the first light on the left would never be used, since it would represent 32 hours, and is only there for symmetry, so it is somewhat artistic after all!

You may have seen similar clocks. I saw this one on the wall in the lobby of McDonnell-Douglas Automation Company in St. Louis over 25 years ago. I was there with a group of Mechanical Engineering students to see a demonstration of their brand new CAD system, which was later to become Unigraphics. I noticed the "sculpture" and when I realized it was actually a clock I asked the other ME's if they had any idea what it was. They all studied it for a while, and then seemed to lose interest, but no one said a word to me if they did figure it out!

Later, I got a chance to ask our two sponsors, one an ME professor and the other a Robotics / Computer Science professor. I asked if they noticed the sculpture with the red lights on the wall. The ME Prof. said he had and was amused to learn it was a clock. The CompSci Prof. replied, "Oh, do you mean the binary clock?"

Just shows how some minds think about things differently!

Not an easy challenge! Actually a good one because the layout was not what I would have expected, but it makes perfect sense now.

By the way, gum is outlawed in Singapore, so anyone living there would have been at a disadvantage.

AH

Yes, these too easy questions leave us with a sticky situation of what to do or say for an entire week. As STL has pointed out, such threads become inflated with off-topic comments. The worst part is when fans of the Challenge Questions dial in and expect to find a real challenge, but find none, and their bubble gets popped!

Maybe we can persuade CR4 to give us real challenges by boycotting this blog, but I don't see that happening. Instead, we could stay on topic, but get as riduculous as we can. I know my suggestion itself sounds ridiculous, but it is something to chew on.

Anyway, here's my ridiculous answer to this "challenge": The boy's father married an extraterrstial, so the boy is half alien. The foil is actually a nutrient to him!

but get as ridiculous as we can

Hey, I'm with you on that ! Kudos to STL for taking the time to submit questions etc, but I don't think poor old Chris Leonard has final say here. Anyway, it's far too early to give up on mangulating a question. Somebody must have strange anecdotes of electrical happening at the dentist, then there are values for current and so on. What about the folk who leave their chompers in a glass beside the bed at night ? Nobody has even mentioned George Washington's teeth yet, and what about the dude in James Bond with the metal teeth ? This has got loads of mileage for trivia and fun ! See, they even gave us a smiley for it. And the toothless. Nah, some things will never happen.

Actually, I know that Chris reviews the questions and sometimes makes suggestions to the writer before forwarding the Challenge on to the "team" (who was just one guy, or so he said at the time), who then can also make or request changes before deciding whether or not to send it on to the newsletter editor who makes the final decision whether or when to put it in the newsletter.

So, yes, there are several hurdles that a Challenge question has to pass before it is accepted. That leaves me to wonder why the quality has been so poor lately (The main exception being Fyz' Pyramid question).

Are there just not enough quality Challenges being submitted? Or are the judges using the wrong (IMHO) criteria in deciding what gets accepted or rejected?

Fyz' Pyramid question

Now you've caused me to break out in a sweat guy ! I instigated a question to spread knowledge about how to present ideas, visual stuff and all that. By the time CR4 people had finished offering suggestions I didn't know if I was coming or going, never mind what the original point was- so much useful stuff was input . ( well , OK, nothing new there- I'm still trying to figure it all out !). Next time you have a good question submitted and the official one is as lame as this, post it as 'STL says...' and I'll be there - you've made plenty of good contributions to the CQ's . It can be heckish good fun when a known member like yourself puts up a good question - not subversive, just all the regulars enjoying a bit of fun. Maybe we should lobby for a new section in CR4 called ' Puzzle Corner' ?

Kudos to STL

Oh, goody! More Kudos for my collection!

ROFL! Leave 'em laughing, eh 3D?

But you got it wrong, of course! No Aliens involved here, simply a case of mistaken identity, the treat that is. You know how parents have to constantly nag their kids to "chew your food, don't swall it whole!"? Well that is EXACTLY what happened here! If you re-read the Challenge, it only says that the boy "put everything in his mouth" and then was unaffected by the wrapper." Of course, he swallowed the thing whole without chewing!

No metal fillings.

Rich

Option 2,

The child does not have teeth yet

The young one's teeth didn't have any filled cavities. The substance that dentists use to fill cavities contains some metal (silver I think), so that the Sn in the foil, the Ag in the filling and the saliva in your mouth form an electrochemical battery, the saliva being the electrolyte. The resulting current, although of small intensity, hits you directly in your teeth's nerve, resulting in the mentioned "awful sensation".

so that the Sn in the foil

So-called "tin foil" has not been made with tin for many, many, years. Metal foil produced for kitchen and commercial food packaging is Aluminum, Al, not Tin, Sn.

What if the father has false teeth? Regards JD.

The grandson did not have any metalic fillings in his teeth so there was no galvanic potential present to cause pain.

Galvanic action between mercury amalgam fillings and aluminum is why many adults would wince in pain if they chewed on gum wrappers. Apparently, the kid doesn't have any fillings.

We have met the enemy and he is us . . . Walt Kelly

Hey, Bill! Friday the 13th done come on a Saturday this month!

Hey, Bill! Friday the 13th done come on a Saturday this month!

Wierd! I said almost exactly those words last Saturday! I used the past tense of "come."

The son did not have filling made of electrically conductive material, which can cause pain when it comes in contact with another metal. When two metals come in contact they produce a voltage which can cause the nerves in the tooth to experience pain. The son may have no fillings or fillings made of a nonconductive material.

More repetition. Nothing new here. Move along.

The young son doesn't have any cavity fillings like the grandfather. Therefore not causing the young boy any pain.

The grandson doesn't have any metallic fillings in his teeth. The grandfather obviously does - when the metallic foil of the wrapper bridges two of his fillings, the acid in his mouth creates a mini battery with the foil and a small electric shock is imparted to his teeth accounting for his discomfort.

The young boy did not have fillings to react with the aluminum foil and the saliva in his mouth.

Obviously your son did not have any metal or amalgam fillings. Dentistry has changed dramatically in the last decade and, despite what other respondants have written, the fact that most kids now have either no fillings (due to protective coatings applied in early childhood) or have fillings that are non-metallic. Not really much of a challenge. R.C. Beltz rcbeltz@comcast.net

the explanation is that even if your son hadn't seen gum in a foil wrapper before, he should have known enough to unwrap it. What sort of a father are you? And maybe after a few hours at the other end of the wrapper's transit, he will squeal with pain. But then may be not as your son doesn't have piles either.

Scientifically speaking I can see only 1 explanation:

1. Your son wanted to imitate Grand dad & stoically munched through the chewing gum hoping to get the same sensation . BTW how old is yr son?

But realistically speaking, I think yr dad should have had the common sense to stop yr son, instead of trying to wonder why your son is not complaining.

Steve

The boy probably has his baby teeth. These teeth have no nerve endings. Gramps, on the other hand, has his adult teeth, which do have nerve endings. Hence the pain.

Simply, the gum was old and hard like the father. The father either is not using teeth or broke a tooth because the bones are more brittle at an older age. Too easy! :)

Both my father and son were given pieces of chewing gum which were wrapped in a paper/foil laminate. Of course my father unwrapped his piece of gum before chewing it but my young son, not realizing the wrapper was inedible, put everything in his mouth. My father winced, sure my son would soon squeal in pain. However, my son was unaffected by the wrapper, leaving my father to wonder why his grandson would not feel the same awful sensation that he would. What's the explanation?

What fun! I will play along, too. Let's see. How about this:

Grandpa's awful sensation was caused when the hardened gum (which we found when cleaning behind a couch that had not been moved in years) caused his denture's to slip, causing him pain, an awful sensation. Sure that the hard corners of the stick of gum would also cause some discomfort to the grandson's soft palate or gums, especially since the paper and foil would not allow saliva to moisten and soften the chewing gum, Gramps was surprised when the boy showed no discomfort.

In reality, the boy had thought, "Hey, no way am I going to chew this crud". But not wanting to hurt the adults' feelings, and being an amateur magician, with a little sleight-of-hand he was able to "palm" the gum, then pretend to be chewing it, while smiling up at Grandpa. After all, he had practiced this trick many times with vegetables and many other food items his parents had wanted him to try!

That's more like it. I'm surprised he wasn't worried about the gum getting wrapped around their hearts. That was the danger I heard about as a kid... maybe the kid left the wrapper on to prevent this.

The son did not have mercury amalgm fillings, which give have an electrical reaction with the foil to cause the pain. Newer non-metallic fillings do not electrically react with metals.

The son did not have any metallic/amalgam fillings.

The reason for this is because the child has had no cavaties and no fillings so their was nothing to cause him pain.

The son only had his baby teeth in, as these don't have nerves he did not feel any sensation from the 'current' created by the wrapper in his mouth.

Hi fellas..

This is easy. You need to have teeth filled or capped with a lesser electro-negative element than aluminium to experience the pain/sensation. Perhaps the father had a gold crown or silver fillings. Mind you, the mouth has to be fairly acidic as well. Remember the high-school science expt. using a zinc and copper plate immersed in a jar of dilute acid. The aluminium foil and the tooth cap/filling would be akin to the zinc and copper plates respectively and body fluids will correspond to the acid. Sensation of pain would be due to current passing through the nerves at the teeth, below the filling.

Raj S. Iyer

The foil wrapping on the gum raises hell with the metal in tooth fillings. Since the son had no fillings he had no pain.

Question was okay even though not complete , answer was awsome , tomarrow somebody could charge a cell phone through his mouth with chewing gum as catalyst generating electricity.. haw..what a battery , you enjoy the taste and create energy for free with little jaw exercise..., imagine person talking ..and chewing ..charging simulteneously....good posting.