Soda Cans Are Really Plastic Bottles

Love the picture of my desk!

I had to photoshop some of the more dangerous materials out of it for company policy reasons, Moose. Didn't want all of your secrets out of the barn, as it were.

ShakespeareTheEngineer, You need to look up the definition of PETARD...it may not be what you think.

Hello Guest,

"Petard" used in the phrase "Hoisted by his own petard" means, held up by his own mistakes. Or "by the mistakes of his former self".

You may have read of the "explosive device"? Prior to that description is the word "formally,"................... Note the comma. That means there is two explanations.

Take care, no insult intended.

Some real life finally! How refreshing.

Hello Emjay,

I thank you for your detailed explanation of how a can is made. To others it may be nothing and perhaps boring, but I find all this stuff really interesting. Almost enough info' to set up a Factory?

Tank you.

Take care.

Hello Emjay,

GA to you Sir,

Take care.

For those following, I have added some images that frankd20 sent along.

This is remarkable and disgusting at the same time. If the contributions of sugary sodas to obesity and other health problems don't scare people, this certainly should.

I also find it remarkable (and maybe scary) that Moose and I have similar disembodied hands decorating our desks.

As if the problms caused by the contents of the cans aren't enough, research the problems caused by some of the chemical additives to the liner material.

I was under the impression that it was carbolic acid, rather than phosphoric acid, that was the more potent ingredient. All sodas have carbolic acid, because all sodas use CO2 as the gassing agent...One would expect an open soda to be less potent than a sealed soda. I(I have actually used a more popular brand of soda as an effective metal cleaner in the past...) Should we add to the experiment the contribution of CO2 release to the atmosphere when drinking a soda to Al Gore's crisis?

It depends on the beverage. Some have citric, some have phosphoric, and I'd wager some even have carbolic, although I haven't stumbled across any myself (not that I have looked very hard).

I presume you mean Carbonic acid and not Carbolic acid which is poisonous stuff used sometimes for heavy duty disinfection.

I think you meant carbonic acid, H₂CO₃, not carbolic acid, C₆H₅OH. The former is created when CO₂ is dissolved in water. The latter is a raw material in the fabrication of bakelite plastic, among other things, and to me has a very objectionable odor.

I am from India.I used to look after an Aerated Water factory who were manufacturing Soft Drinks and SODA. As I fee that Soda filled in glass or plastic bottle is chilled water passed through CO2 Gas and nothing else.In sweet Soft Drinks an concentrate supplied by the main manufacturer to francchisee is a very small quantity.If you say that it is phosporic acid or carbolic acid,then first question is that "Are we drinking these acids ,Will they not damage our inner body parts.Is it non human drinks when it can remove rust of Iron product"

If I open an soda bottle and drop it on the rusted iron,will there be any reaction immediately as after few minutes the CO2 effect becomes over except the soda or cola is chilled,there may be a retention of CO2 for some time..

Please clarify and explain more.

Thanks for the article.

C.B.BAIRATHI JAIPUR RAJASTHAN INDIA

cbbairathi11@gmail.com

Of course you all realize that hydrochloric acid is a component of our stomach's gastric acid.

I'm amazed those plastic cups didn't melt.

If you want to amp it up and make it more spectacular, next time throw a match on the hydrogen gas coming from the reaction.

Couple of things.

Hydrochloric acid doesn't destroy organics like sulfuric or nitric. It is not a strong oxidizing agent. Second it would be much more effective then many other acids at dissolving metals, because the chloride salts formed at the metal surface are nearly always soluble (silver being one exception). Phosphate and carbonates form a layer that protects the metals from corrosion by acids, thus you would likely see a extremely slow reaction to phosphoric of carbonic acids as the carbonate/phosphate layer on the surface is formed. Phosphates can actually form a very durable protective layer on metals as almost all phosphates are highly insoluble. It is pretty hard to dissolve a solid piece of metal in a phosphoric acid bath due to the protective layer it forms.

Yes, something like a zinc phosphate dip aids in retarding corrosion. What were you trying to dissolve in the phosphor. bath? Steel reacts pretty well in phosphoric (not as well as HCL) and would dissolve if left in the acid.

Reasonable terminology is an aid, not a nuisance. A typical soda pop contains about 0.005% Sodium. The name 'soda' is historical and has nothing to do with the chemical components of soda pop.

A can of Coca-Cola has about 50mg of sodium. A Sprite has 70mg. If your percentages are referencing RDA guidelines, that is between 2% and 3%, not .005%.

If not, what are your percentages referencing? Percentage of total composition?

'Coca Cola Zero' has 5 mg Sodium per 100 ml or 0.005 g Sodium per 100 g water which is 0.00005 or 0.005%. Usually, concentrations of components in drinks are given per 100 ml. I don't have a Sprite can handy so I can't read what's on the label.

Try to take a standard 200 ml glass of water, mix in 2% table salt (4 g) and taste it. True, table salt is NaCl and I'm too lazy to calculate the Sodium -> Table salt weight ratios.

3% sodium, what are you drinking sea water?

Hi All,

Here in India we have well known Yogi "Baba Ramdev" who is popular Yoga teacher and has a large following. He has cured many people of chronic diseases through Yoga. He had been strong crusader against famous soda mfrs. He considers sodas as toilet cleaner and not worth drinking. He had been criticised for his such opinion. But with the above experiments he has proved right.

Pepsi's next Board meeting is going to be held in India. Hope Board members will have lots of Sodas to drink and spoiling their belly.

Suresh Sharma.

it's funny you mention them as toilet cleaners, in the navy we used to use a can of coke to unstop a urinal... However, considering what your stomach produces, the occasional can of cola ain't gonna have too many immediate life threatening effects on your body... Either way, it's all about moderation, even consuming massive amounts of water can kill you... In fact if you want to try a new experiment go squeeze some lime juice into various unprepped containers and see what happens...

Sound like all soda should come with an MSDS. Maybe it should be printed on the can.

Wonderful experiment and nicely documented too.

However the inference that "since acid can eat through metal, imagine what it can do to a stomach" is quite off the mark.

The stomach is not aluminum, it is not a passive material, it is an organ constructed of various tissues to help it emit and contain very low ph digestive environment. The mucosa, the innermost lining, actually is well adapted to a low ph acidic environment.

By defeating the liner on the can, this is analogous to removing say the inner lining of the stomach, the mucosa.

Interestingly, I do not recall seeing any mention of the the actual pH of the sodas.

So this is a qualitative, semiquantitative demonstration.

I would agree with the gentleman in India who says it makes good toilet cleaner- the acidity will help with removing alkaline mineral buildups. And I forgive him for thinking that the entire world is vegetarian and does not eat meat, the acidity in the soda helps to break down meat: That's why our stomachs emit acid in the first place.

Now we can discuss the range of stomach acids and PH in carnivores and omniovores and herbivores, but humans ph typically is 4.5 to 5.5; some carnivores pH lower than 2.0

As for the MSDS, Actually if you are using it for a process chemical, you will need to have an MSDS.

Nice blog post!

milo

I was just being flippant at the end of the article. If I had my wits about me, I would have referenced tooth enamel. As a matter of fact, I think I will make that change now.

On a tangent yet not quite off topic:

How did you verify it was a plastic liner? Aluminum is highly suseptable to corrosion yet it does not rust because as soon as the air comes in contact it forms a corundum oxide layer (ruby). Did you try placing a can in the pop (Ohio)?

Interesting,

We would be interested to see how long a can would survive in a human puke liquid environment. We will appreciate your sacrifice...

I agree with many of you that excessive consumption of soda is unhealthy. However, let's be honest here. Soda dissolves the can because it is acidic. But it is no more acidic than many natural, healthy foods- including most fruits. We should be aware of the real dangers that exist in many foods- but we should not allow a dramatic display like this to suggest that a food with a moderately low pH is dangerous. Our natural stomach acid would dissolve the can even faster than the soda.

Exactly.

milo

Hi Milo,

I am bit confused with your comments. You had said earlier:-

The stomach is not aluminum, it is not a passive material, it is an organ constructed of various tissues to help it emit and contain very low ph digestive environment. The mucosa, the innermost lining, actually is well adapted to a low ph acidic environment.

Would you kindly clarify your stand.

Suresh sharma

Hi suresh.

Our stomach is not a passive pure metal, it is a complex active tissue, that actively protects itself from acidic secretions. (low PH)

The sodas that I tested back when i had a lab were around 4.5 pH as I recall, about the same as our normal stomach acid. So to me, acidity is a non issue.

Carnivores actually run far lower pH in their stomachs, less that 2.0! the better to break down proteins and bone fragments as well as to prevent the growth of certain bacteria.

Our pH of 4.5 is more of an omnivore attribute, and so we have difficulty with bacteria that can live in our mildly acidic gut such as salmonella, camphylobacter and even other strains of e.coli. if we ran lower pH these would not be a problem for us.

So my point is that using pure metal as a proxy for an active tissue system adapted to handle low pH is a major flaw of the experimental design. Its illustrative of the chemical power of the soda, but not at all representative of actually what occurrs in our stomach.

peace.

milo

He showed that with the muriatic (HCL)

Agreed. The most noxious substance in soda pop is the eminently natural sugar.

But it is no more acidic than many natural, healthy foods- including most fruits.

I did read this morning one article that says that soda can change the acidity of your mouth in three minutes to ten times the level of most fruit juices. I don't know if that is same for eating the fruit that juice comes from. I don't disagree with what you are saying, just relating what I read.

Our natural stomach acid would dissolve the can even faster than the soda.

True, but most people don't make a habit of dumping it on their teeth every day.

In light of what your stomach produces, you are correct, the phosphorc acid is not too threatening to your health. The real issue I have heard, from several dentists, as well as my own dental problems is, that the phosphoric acid in soda eats the enamel off of your teeth. Who have thought, it's not just the sugar in your soda that causes the cavities. It's also the acid in the soda damaging the enamel. So, diet sodas are not much safer, I guess.

not that I'm fond of colas or "uncolas", sodas, pops, whatever, but the experiment's essay failed to mention the duration the soda stayed in the can. AFAIK, the softdrinks lose their taste when exposed to air for some time. I forgot the explanation to that, but has that been taken into account in the experiment?

the comment "I wonder what it could do to the enamel on a person's teeth?" is sorta unrealistic, as no one I know keeps his drink in his mouth for longer than an hour.

I admit, however, that such drinks are unhealthy, and as a practice, as much as possible, I drink only fruit juices and water.

we imbibe these chemicals because ads tell us to do so. I remember a high school teacher (ages before bottled water) telling us this, and suggesting that if somebody advertised saying, "Drink water, drink water", we would do so. many years later, bottled water ads can be seen all over.

bottom line? stay healthy by whatever means. eat and drink natural. just my 2 cents.

According to frankd20, the leak sprang in one week. And while no one soaks their teeth for a week straight, if you don't wash out your mouth/repeated drinking adds up over time.

Again, this experiment was about the soda and the can. The references to the human body were made just as a reminder that we drink this stuff.

I agree, while there are a few people who religiously brush their teeth right after a soda, many of us do not. The chemical residue of these sodas stays on our teeth for quite some time. While not comparable to soaking, there is still damage being done. Even after you finish drinking your soda.

thanks for the info.

I'd say the damage these stuff does is more serious on our kidneys rather than our teeth. the sugar in these drinks creates and promotes plaque formation. if one has cavities, that is where these liquid can seep into and stay (unless one gargles or drinks water after drinking soda) and do greater damage.

OT: I remember a class suit(s) was filed against tobacco manufacturers years ago. did anyone ever file a class suit against these softdrink manufacturers?

A class action suit over tooth decay, which by the way fruit acids are vastly superior at causing decay then phosphoric or carbonic acids (organic acids act as chelating agents for the calcium). So then we have to sue the fruit growers. And, lets not forget coffee, and chocolate, and nearly everything we eat since sugar is a necessary component of our existence. Of course there is the glucose in your blood too, which is a vastly superior sugar for growing bacteria. Guess we need to sue the dental floss producers and tooth brush manufacturers too. You can not restrict sugar intake, and the intake of sugar is not a conspiracy. Even starch will hydrolyze in your mouth to form sugar. If sugar, and sugar based compounds are deemed a health risk and banned, we all die. Even blood would then be illegal. Nicotine on the other hand is not a natural compound utilized by the human body's metabolic processes, actually it is a toxin produced by plants.

How did you sand and/or apply heat to remove the plastic liner without damaging the can.

For what it is worth... There are a few issues that were touched on in the postings that I feel compelled to add to. The liners in the cans are generally a form of enamel. The chemical composition is highly protected by the can manufacturers. Kind of like how a really good cake recipe would be protected by Betty Crocker. So there is the possibility of a different liner for each beverage based on the soda contents. In some can liner materials there is a component referred to as BPA. BPA has been in the news lately because of it's presence in baby bottles. So, BPA, if it is present can leach into the contents if stored for a long time or heated. That is why you shouldn't heat cans of beans on the stove top or camp fire. Put them in a pan first and then recycle the can. The claim is BPA acts like a hormone and can disrupt what is going on in growing babies. People have the chemical in them as a result of using a variety of products that contain BPA. The worst offenders of BPA contamination are the hard bodied drink containers. I believe these are polycarbonate forms. The softer water bottles with a PP or PE are safe and do not contain BPA. The acid from the soda presents a little problem as it goes down. If the soda is used as mouth wash and swirled, held and swallowed then the acidity level can be greatly increased. But, the real problem is naturally living things in your mouth. The different forms of sugars in the soda feed these things and within a fairly short period of time the little bug populations grow to really high levels. Again, no problem yet. It is after they ingest the sugars and start producing an acid bi-product that is fairly damaging. This is what does the damage. The biological living organisms in your mouth that create decay as well as the slimy crud that builds up on your teeth called plaque and the vintage smell of bad breath. The CO2 is more of a form of what you are breathing out just by living. CO2 is captured by the manufacturers out of the air and cycled into the water and other ingredients. Think of this gas as a warm form of dry ice. CO2 has a bit of a bitter taste, adding to the flavor. Leave the can open for some time and the flavor changes to kind of an off sweet taste. This is due to the lack of CO2 that has off gassed. As a means of keeping the soda taste, allow it to stay warm. Then put ice in it. That way if you're not going to empty the can right away there will be more carbonation than if you refrigerated the partially emptied can. Warm liquids holds more gas in solution than cold liquids. So, by refrigerating the open can of soda you actually start to drive off the CO2 much faster.

As RCE says, cold liquids hold gasses in solution better than warm ones. Why do you suppose Coors has the temperature indicating cans? The answer is to be sure the beer is cold enough to retain its CO₂. The flavor added by by CO₂ is sour (acid), not bitter, from carbonic acid. Without the CO₂, the beer and soft drinks taste flat (no acid to counteract the sweet).

I don't know where most beverage manufacturers get their CO₂, but I do know of one Coca-Cola plant in Europe that has a pipe bringing it from a nearby brewery.

No bisphenol A in Enamel liners. It can be found in some epoxy lining materials and plastics.

The fear-hype on this is "chemicals are bad organic gardening variety" objections. Natural is ok, but suspect, any 'synthetic chemical' is presumed toxic. The levels of BPA in packaging are many times lower than govt standards.

http://www.metal-pack.org/docs/pdf/00025954.PDF

People have forgotten that just a few years ago we lacked the technology to even measure these low levels of these substances, now when a couple of molecules can be counted, we go nuts. I call this the case of the disappearing zero. When you can count atoms, Zero no longer exists in any sample.

DOSAGE is an important concept to consider too.

I'm more afraid of dying from food toxins and bacteria in the absence of todays modern technologies than I am from the "precautionary principle hysteria" promoted by the peta foodies. Safe food supply has been a major part of my family's success. And that includes can liners and plastics.

And Pepsi-Cola.

And chocolate ice cream from cows treated by antibiotics.

milo "not to be confused for luddite or old order amish"

Agreed. Good sense and proper attention to orders of magnitude have been rather rare throughout this discussion.

Hello warrens50,

I feel you make some sense in your post starting "For what it is worth"............. But one area you should read up on, is how liquid holds and releases various gases.

COLD liquid hold much more gas than warm.

Look on gas as warm liquid. This is why gases are usually transported as extremely cold to 'freezing' liquid.

No insult intended, OK?

Take care.

Well... soft drink (in Australia - pop, soda to the rest) didn't do much to this frog;

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5911139/frog-in-pepsi-can-it-the-real-thing/

(sorry don't know how to 'link')

1)Grab the link from the top of the page by highlighting it and hitting ctrl-c keys simultaneously;

2) Go to your message and hit ctrl-v keys simultaneously that will paste it to your page;

3) Highlight the whole link with your mouse, Then type over it a new name like Link

4) voila:

Link

milo

Hi Milo

One small but significant correction: the Control key (or Command key on a Mac) is a modifier key; it must be pressed before pressing the C, V, etc. I have observed many people over the years trying to press the keys simultaneously, and wondering why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't (depending on the exact timing - true simultaneous doesn't exist with fingers or keyboards).

More importantly, I just tried to follow your directions, and it did NOT work! I'm not sure whether you left out a step, or whether your directions depend on a particular browser.

You made no mention of the Tool Bar. Within CR4's editor, the only way I know to make a link is using the Tool Bar. Here are the steps that work in Firefox on a Mac (Safari does not currently have the Tool Bar, so Firefox is required):

1) Highlight the URL (http://etc) of the desired destination and press Ctrl-C (Command-C) to copy it.

2) Go to your message, and select (highlight) the word or words you want to associate with the Link. If you want the full URL to appear as the link, you can paste and select it.

3) Click on the Link Icon in the Tool Bar (The world with a short chain). The add/edit link dialog box will appear, with the highlighted text in the upper (Text) field. Click in the lower (Link) field and press Ctrl-V (Command-V) to paste the URL.

4) Click Submit, and the selected text will change color to indicate successful insertion of the link. In this case, it also changed the word to underlined.

Dick

Hello dkwarner,

Hope you are OK?

I did not check Milo's post. But whatever happens there is at least three explanations on how to link for the original person, who I have forgotten, (sorry you).

Take care my friend.

G'morning dkwarner.

Thanks for your comment.

I have confirmed that it works by the way that you described too. That is, first hitting the ctrl key, then the C or V key. However, hitting what seems to be simultaneously (for me) also works... When dealing with savvy engineering and technical types, there is always another way...

I am in one of the Internet Explorer version 7 I think. on a windows laptop, I use my new macbook strictly for photography and videostuff currently.

Babybear, as I indicated in my earlier post, By overtyping a link while it is selected, one can shorten it and change its'wordiness.'

http://pmpaspeakingofprecision.com/2009/08/25/3-reasons-to-not-weld-free-machining-steels/

becomes

Don'tWeld

Try it!

milo

Hello Milo,

Cheers my friend! I am slowly getting used to the several ways of entering a link. One other way is to right click, and then click (I think) ......... enter a link? I stick to what I know for the moment. And have not tried the 'CTRL' or is it 'CMD' and click a letter way yet. BTW there is no need to put me right on this post, I know I have a 50/50 chance of being right! LOL. And actually think it may be CMD then click a letter, but will try that as and when I need it. ...........................

Can I send my thanks to dkwarner through your post Milo? Hi dkwarner, thank for your help my friend, and thank you to you Milo.

Take care

Hello Milo,

Hope you are well?

Why is it you use 'one' word in explanation of the link, and I use a 'hundred'?

I explained how to link before I read your explanation, sorry.

Take care.

Hello daffy,

I have only recently found out how to link from a friend on CR4.

Highlight the piece you want to 'link', then click the 'chain link' icon 5 from the left at the tom of these post-boxes.

A drop down menu well appear. Your typed link will be in the top of two address boxes. Copy and paste the correct link into the bottom address box, then your typed link which could even be a '.' (dot) or anything at all really, will change colour and the link will be made.

Note: You cannot 'use' the link before you preview it. This is not usually necessary because you can go directly to your new post and click on your link, if it works and takes you to the right site fine. If it doesn't then you will need to edit your post and double check the link again after posting.

I am only just getting used to linking like this so double check to see if it works. After a few times you (and I) will know you/we are doing it correctly so will not have to review the new post to see if the link works, OK?

If after you have made the link and it has changed colour, you continue to type and that type becomes part of the link, highlight the part you do not want to link and, click the broken chain link icon which is the next, > to the right of the 'link' icon.

Sorry for the long explanation! See below...............

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5911139/ frog-in-pepsi-can-it-the-real-thing/

This is your link, just click on it and if I have done it correctly it will link to your site.

Take care.

Thanx MILO...I worked it out (on another post)...When you highlight the pasted link you right click the highlight and and change the first window to whatever you want. Second window is the link.

BOT (Back On Topic)...sorry for the diversion.

Hi daffy,

That seems correct. Easy when you know 'how' is it not?

I do not think anyone with be bothered about your slight slip into 'off-topic', especially now you are back on topic.......................

I sent my explanation before I read any of the other explanations, so sorry to all re: duplication, OK?

Take care.