Is Suing Your College Justified If You Graduate Unemployed?

Sounds kind of spoiled if you asked me!!!!!!!!!!

or incompetent.

LOL yeah, I agree with you entirely, I'd never hire a person with that kind of personality. I can understand being angry though. I'm a recent "graduate" in the sense that I've already finished all of my coursework, but because of the recession I've decided to study abroad remaining as an undergrad. My GPA is a mediocre 3.04 but my senior design project was the "best in the graduating class" according to the chair of the ME department and I landed an awesome internship in Munich with BMW. Then after this, I'm going to study at another university in Germany. Unless I get some great research project when I get home, I might not do a masters degree and just get a job.

I guess my point is that even though I couldn't find a great permanent job right away, I found other things to do and wouldn't consider suing the school unless they did something purposeful to spite me. They didn't spite me of course, and probably the fact that I didn't find a job was probably more my fault from not looking that hard. There are jobs, I don't see how you couldn't find a job if you had to! But where I am right now is pretty sweet though, I'm in an office at BMW doing driving simulation programming

... imagine best driving simulation ever , the physics are amazing, but the graphics are a few years out of date

But if there's one thing that school has taught me, it is that GPA doesn't always mean something when it comes to a good engineer. But if she's a business major, it's shameful not to get at least a 3.5. All business majors at my school just partied and drank themselves stupid while I was studying away and becoming antisocial

PS, I designed and built a working CVT for a Porsche 944 , that was my project.

What's a CVT? (No kidding)!

Hello? A "B-" is a very good score! A "C" is average, which is still a good score. I agree though, that she doesn't deserve a "refund" because she has yet to find a perfect employment opportunity. We have, on our hands, a generation of entitled little brats. This 27 year probably has never gotten her manicured hands dirty and has no intention of ever doing so. Even a leader has to get his/her hands dirty to understand how the company works. This involves working in shipping dept, the manufacturing floor, or any other department that makes the company what it is. Her lack of enthusiasm is the very reason our work force is non-existant. We are a country of managers with nobody to manage! It's the reason we will never compete with the likes of China again!

A 2.0, "C", GPA is not average for an overall GPA, that is the minimum requirement to be elible to graduate.

On a 4.0 scale a 2.0 means 50% a 2.7 means 67.5% That is a low C or a high D where I come from, passing but NOT knowledgable (than again if the minimum grade is not good enough that it should not be the minimum). Simply put someone who is at the bottom of the passing group should not complain that others, who are more knowledgable in the specific field (higher grades SHOULD relate to higher level of knowledge) get work easier. Again schools do NOT guarantee work they only promise to provide you information that you can use to find work. (Even if they do say that a lot of their graduates get jobs, they provide job hunting support and counselling and use that as a selling point NONE of them promise EVERY graduate a job therefore there is NO place for a class action suit as someone else suggested)

Of course some college programs do advertise an almost implied guarantee of a high paying job upon graduation, again e.g. ITT, University of Pheonix. If your advertisement tout how well paid your graduates are upon graduation and how they are employed immediately upon graduation as if this is the normal or typical graduates condition, then maybe these "colleges"" should be held accountable. some of the colleges actually advertise an implied guarantee of a high paying job upon graduation, just watch the commercials, let alone what the college recruiters say.

Additionally, a 2.0 means 50% only on a Bell curve grading distribution for a single course. A Grade Point Average is the average for all courses taken. Obviously over time many people who do not achieve a GPA of 2.0 drop out. A 2.0 is the minimum GPA required to remain in college and to Graduate. It is the very bottom, the 0%, of the graduating distribution, or at least it is for any Public University in California.

Higher grades do not necessarily mean higher knowledge.

They do mean a higher ability to pass exams! I know people who are excellent 'A' grade students. I wouldn't trust them to wire a plug!

Other people, and i do include myself, are really bad at passing exams. Its not for lack of trying but its other reasons. Mind going blank as you turn over the paper and that sort of thing.

So to say higher grades automatically mean higher knowledge is not true.

of course wiring a plug is a minor thing so the ability to performm under pressure and be correct is not necessarily critical. Though i would suspect you'd ant someone who could perform accurately and precisely under pressure in a timely manner when failure could result in a critical risk, cost human health, etc.. If you can not handle the pressure of a simple exam under that minor pressure and your mind goes blank, how might you fare when you had a very short time to get the answer correct or many lives might be lost (and your job). The ability to pass exams is extremely representative.

However, it must also be clear that an A GPA doesn't not reflect the coursework taken. Many people in colleges compete to take the easiest courses to pass to improve their GPAs. So sometimes a review of coursework is relevant also, as you might find a guy has a B+ average because he challenged himself and took those courses in Fourier analysis as electives instead of coaching football or ethnic studies in the modern US, which would have been guaranteed A's. also, of note that frequently companies overlook is the type of degree, typical bachelor of science degree programs require harder courses be taken plus they require nearly a years more coursework be completed to graduate than a bachelor of arts degree. Similarly for a master of science or master of engineering. BA degrees in any technical field are almost exclusively specifically focused towards high school teaching. Thus a B+ with a BS degree is likely more qualified than a A in a MA degree program (particularly since extremely few good technical universities and programs offer MA degrees). there is also something to be said for the highly academic and competitive programs, not so much the programs that are expensive per se, but those where the brightest students are in competition for grades. Thus CalTech is likely a better learning environment than Hayward or Stanislaus State for a chemist or electrical engineer. However, some programs such Harvard tends to be more of a wealthy elitist program, but frequently fails to reach the selectivity toward the best and brightest by allowing a great many entrants to be severely underqualified as long as their parents have sufficient influence and finances, and thus may not prove as good as Chicago University for say a physicist.

I have to disagree with you. I often hear that "a better grade does not mean that someone has learned more" line. The reality is different. Learning a subject is more than just regurgitating it back on a test, it is an understanding of the subject. If you understand a subject you will have little problem putting your answer onto a blank piece of paper. If you are talking about trying to write down memorized information than - yes - you will tend to go blank when under pressure of a white page. I doubt even the most terrified person of the empty white page would be unable to write down there name and address (although there are some I am talking in the general population), or write about their family or a subject they love. So someone who understands a subject is not very likely to have the white page fear and will do well on the test, someone who does not understand the subject is more likely to "fail open". On a good test Knowledge is checked more than information retention, information can be looked up, knowledge must be understood.

Although your post is nearly a year old I'm going to respond to this anyway.

A higher grade means you put more effort into your work. A person that puts more effort into their work shows you can expect more results from this person than you do from someone that is only doing mediocre work. Who do you want, a real performer or someone that does just enough to just get by?

Your example of not trusting an "A" student to wire a plug. There are those that stick to just reading books, then there are those that actually go outside and play once in awhile and do chores and actually get some hands on experience. Don't think that just because someone that has an "A" doesn't have any practical hands on knowledge.

The point seems to have been missed—perhaps Jaxy's writing could have made it clearer—that the complaining graduate's grounds for suing were (or so it seems) that the school was screening GPA's (as opposed to all qualifying credentials, academic and otherwise) as a sole basis for presenting or not presenting job candidate applications.

Her contention—no doubt, her attorney's contention—that being in not-small-claims court—was that, having made certain representations about education and placement services it provides, the school, in effect, was disqualifying her from even competing for "degree-required" jobs, based solely upon class ranking.

Or, it might otherwise be said, was failing to give proper and reasonable notice in job listings/bulletins of GPA stipulations being made by employers; or failing to disallow such stipulations (under the color of official school business) by employers. ...to the effect that she and the majority in her class [double meaning intended], were deprived of the chance for even a "foot in the door."

Such is not an unreasonable cause of action, especially in situations—exacerbated during economic contractions—where entry-level candidates have very few, if any, alternative sources of "entry-level" job leads.

GA. I agree. Consider if you were a recruiter, visiting her campus for a job interview with her. She has a B- average, and there are likely many studnets with better grade averages. Her average is mediocre at best. She likely wouldn't perform a very good interview either, with that attitude.

I just found out that a currently running incentive of going to work for the US Fed Govt is that they will pay for the employee's student loan.

Maybe this woman should pick up a job with TSA or some other mind numbing Federal Agency. Might not be much of a future but at least it would get the bills paid.

Hooker

I believe alot may have been be in the right place at the right time. After being unemployed 3 weeks after graduated seemed rather despairing thinking am I ever going to get a job.

It turned out that after I got that first job, offers just started coming through. One place the company that I had applied called, they said they were trying to get a hold of me but misplaced my resume...........oh thats too bad...... I told them.

On a different note,

A few years working with this company This was in the fall, I had a resume and applicant that I had to review, It was a graduate from Michigan Tech, with B.S. in Mechanical Engineering. Its been a long time but I think his GPA was 2.8 or something. (I often wondered, I though that a minimum requirement GPA like 3.0 to get a degree).

Anyways he was applying for 2 shift cad operator position which was usually for a Associate Degree. I asked him why, his response was he needs the experience, and that he was going to move on in 3-6 months. because no one would hire him with no experience. And he was out of college for a few months already.

My response was really, I had happened to searched the classified ads that day, to verify ours and noticed alot of entry level positions, I reminded him of this. His response was that he felt he was above that because he graduated from Mich. Tech.

Did not make sense for what he was applying for now.

I saw the problem repeat itself time and again and realized, that the kids getting their degree think that the hard part is done after getting out of college, I reminded them their degree only opens the door a little wider for them to land a job. After graduation thats when the real work begins.

I guess its the environment that imposes on them that they think that they are entitled to a job if they put just a little effort in somewhere else.

She should stop blaming other people for her situation, How did she dress? How was her grammar? How did she present herself? Who wants to hire someone that will sue when things get difficult?

Would you hire someone who blames everybody else for her misfortunes that more than likly she created?

Heck did she whine in college and the professors just to get her out gave her a 2.7 to get her ass out.....or maybe she had something on them.......it seems that shes used to getting her way?

College is what you make of it, I have worked with a mix of degreed people from AAS, B.S. and MS, and frankly, if you were to line them up and question them to determined which degree they had that would be difficult.

The only thing I found was rhat there was a higher degree of arrogancy to match the education at times.

The stories could go on.........

phoenix911

I can't help it but to share this, and this may be some of the problem.

I was the engineering manager at a OEM for the food industry.

I was approached by the owner, saying that one of their friends son who is very smart and graduated from MIT wants to work here, and that we probably could get hem very cheap. I smile, and ask, MIT? I see, why here? My smile was bigger, the owner had a bigger smile but for different reasons.

I interview this chap, when I first saw him, his suit just shimmered and glistened, at least $1200.00. this was over 20 years ago

We started the interview off, by him asking me what kind of benefits we have here. I followed and responded to see where this was going to take us. He was facilitating the interview, which for some reason I saw this humorous. His questions or actually demands, were his salary requirements, I question about that number, he reminded me that he graduated from MIT, I left it at that and followed with why he wanted to work at this company with those credentials. His reply was if we had a sign-on bonus package.

And followed with what this company could do for him, well my patience ran out, and I started the interview over, by telling him you will receive a package of benefits, and job expectations to review at your leisure, I will answer all reasonable questions about benefits, but to be fair that will be taken up with our HR, which would be in the second interview if you make the cut. That way you'll have time to review the package and this would answer your questions now, and ask can more in-depth questions on the second interview. This is a screening, for both you and myself. You at about this company, me, your capabilities.

So I started to ask him fluff questions such as how did you like going to school out east, his reply was good. MIT is pretty prestigious why do you want to work here, his response was that basically this company was nothing more than a tool for him for a better job, he saw no future here. (He was out of school for over a year without a job)

I kept questioning him even though he tryed misdirecting my question (.....kinda like our registered guests.....) with answers that was related to what the company can do for him.

Interviews usually lasts about (2) hours with a tour of the facility. There was something that he was avoiding, and that was his education, and then I returned to that and asked him directly; "So you graduated from MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Technology? Correct."

He said no he never said that and reminded me he only said MIT. I said yes I know, it even says that on you resume. So I asked him so what does MIT stand for you. He said Minnesota Institute of Technology. I told him that can be misleading. He said he did not mislead me, I reply I asked how did you like school out east, you said it was good, Minnesota is west of us. His reply was, He thought I meant camping with his parents in Kewaunee....about 40 miles east of us in Green Bay, Wisconsin.

So then I asked him directly. What can you do for this company?

His reply was, "I am bringing my experience."

My follow up question, "What experience is that?"

With that, he then started talking fluff, shortly after, I cut him short with that I'll give a him a very short tour of the facility, and to the front office. I told him we'll call you.

Even though he only had a B.s. his arrogance could go far, but not here.

phoenix911

That sounds like an extreme case. I can't imagine anyone using this ploy about MIT or mis-representing himself to get a first job. He must not have any regard for the company or the interviewer. Such an individual might be better off trying to sell used cars for a living. He needs a few years working as a construction laborer to develop some humility.

Well without stereotyping, This was told to me later, he was an only child.

Such an individual might be better off trying to sell used cars for a living. He needs a few years working as a construction laborer to develop some humility.

I felt the same way, when he took the initiative on facilitating the interview, I was looking for someone with confidence. After I found that, I put pressure on him to see how he would act under pressure........Because if he was ever at a process start-up, which the right person I had no problem fast-tracking. I wanted to see his reaction, under pressure.........His reaction....pretty immature. His confidence....lets say, was adjusted.

But I was the one insulted.

I did gave him some advice. It came down to something like this. Be proud of your Alta mater, And be truthful, the truth though humbling at times, its easier to remember.

I gave him something else to think about. You talk the talk...you better, walk the walk.

Because some of us aren't impressed by just the packaging.

phoenix911

Hi phenix,

Was it not possible to make your comment short, let us one para?.

Suresh Sharma.

Ah, but we'd miss the build up, the suspense...some stories are better long.
...now did I ever tell you the one about....
Del

dam-it, i'm getting old,......thank for the kick in the pants

yes it was, sorry.....I should have posted off topic,,,, but could not.

there are more like this that matches the OP. This is not a isolated incident, But I had to screen, because there are times when I would get a diamond in the rough.....well worth it. It just cutting through all the brush.

Jeez, I'm surprized you let him get that far...I think I'd have given him short shrift, and, if he was lucky, some advice abour removing his head from his backside.
Del

Well, I was looking for someone to have a take control attitude. And when people talk, they just give it all way. And this kid had a problem. here we go....again,

Parents were friends of the owner, (bad enough the owners were employing their good for nothing nephews in mid management) a 15 minute interview was not right. I gave him a tour like I always do, and introduce him to some of the lead fabricators, and excuse myself. to see the interaction between the two, (that is important), and get a response from the fabricators. I do that with all applicants. To reinforce my decision, could I be wrong, hell no not with this one. But the fabricators, gave me hell about that arrogant applicant, and I thanked them for that, . (I told them he's starting Monday).....just to get the look on their faces , I don't know, I thought that was funny, at least their looks were.

Anyways, I needed their support because of the politics mentioned in the second paragraph. And I got it as usual.

I did diplomatically knock him down a notch (or 6) , but it was constructive, hopefully.

But what I would like to have done can't be mentioned.

phoenix911

The only thing guaranteed in Life, is Death and Taxes!

I would be out every day from morning to night looking for a job. I would not sit on my ass waiting for someone else to find it for me. I know what I like, I want, and I will find it. Everybody that wants a free ride and a handout irritate me beyond belief.

There was a time in the US when simply knowing things, and having a life of the mind was an end in itself, regardless of what you might do for a paycheck.

In a meritocracy is this person really so surprised that those who got better grades than she did were easier for the Career office to find jobs for?

These days as well, a bachelors degree is not all that impressive.

What was her Major anyway?

Apparently this woman is 27. Has she ever had a job? By 27 you would think a person might have done a little work somewhere.

Further as most of us are aware this era is not a particularly great time to be looking for a job, or even starting a business.

When you pay for an education, that is really all you get for the money spent or time invested.

We can imagine some sort of situation where there might be a legitimate case for someone to sue an Educational Institution for non performance, like if they charged you for courses that were not taught, or the teachers were Witch doctors and you were trying to learn how to be a surgeon.

Other than bizarre sorts of events like that, we can't see much merit in this woman's complaint.

Justified? Why is the subject even discussed? An education is just a tool. It does not matter where you get your education ( what college or university, I believe that a higher education is necessary ), but how you apply the skills you obtained. Universities are not a center of "facts", but a path to learn how to think.

A college education should not teach you anything, but develop within the student the ability to seek knowledge, and understand when it is that you obtained said knowledge.

An education is just a tool

I agree! You can't just buy a hammer and then sue the manufacturer because it didn't build a house for you...

Dan

Unless of course the manufacturer explicitly stated, or even implicitly stated, that the hammer would. So the question becomes how did the college sell the recruitment.

So the question becomes how did the college sell the recruitment.

usually with we have a 85% placement with our graduates....she would then fall under the 15%.

But the stats would get drilled even farther such as, with 75% placed in their field, making $XXXXX, 18% in a related field making $xxxx, 12% out of their field making making $xxxxx.....plus how many % are happy or disaapointed with the institution. easy enough to check on line though.

BYW, anybody noticed that 105% placement........(I just made the numbers up)

Simply beyond comprehension. What do they expect the college to do anyway? The college is not in control of the hiring. Sounds like mommy forgot to inform this young fool that it's a hard world out there and you're pretty much on your own. If your only plan is to get ahead by someone getting it for you then a rude awakening is just around the bend.

For an investment of $70,000, to only pull a 2.7, shows a lack of something essential.

All schools have help for struggling students. It seems she thinks a 2.7 (C+) is ok though.

That leaves two choices. Either she is happy with "C" work, in which case few companies should be interested. Or "C" work is all she is capable of, which has the same result.

Has she gotten any interviews? screening tests?

Sounds like it would be a hard sell for the placement department.

I vote no refund.

Millions of people never learned anything useful in college.

College teaches you how to think indpendently and know where to seek answer to your questions. Really unless your in a special research program that is about it !

Ever notice that it is the "C" students who return to build the libarys, classroom and labs ????

Extending on from this, does Thompson intend suing potential employers applied to that do not offer an interview?

And would an employer offer an interview to Thompson on the basis of the risk of being sued for everything in sight?

What was the course: law?

This individual needs to stir-fry some thoughts in a reality wok.

• Can this individual do the job? - academic grading would suggest "yes".
• Will this individual do the job? - doubtful, if spending work time trying to sue people.
• Will this individual fit? - not as well as other candidates, it would appear.......

that person is out of touch of the real world out there. She thinks everything must be given to her the way she wants. She is definately a 'give me' person.

I graduated with 2.6 average and I've been unemployed for 4 years after graduation. The first job was at walmart unloading the trucks. Now I am working as assembler for almost 10 years. After 14 years I gave up looking for job because I know its a waste of time. Someone has to tell her that companies and schools are not much different from government parties. Its all dirty politics. Its all about skills of deceiving.

Schools are to teach you the knowledge, they do not to provide you a job. For that you go to employment agency.

This is ridiculous. When I graduated (many years ago now) with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering there was only one person in my graduating class that had a job at graduation, and it was not me. Four years earlier when we started the program were given a presentation that touted how wonderful the job market was for ChemE's and how we could name our price. Well, even though that did not work out I got a job in retail and started taking graduate school classes at night. I earned my Master's Degree in Civil Engineering and began working for one of my professor's who has a consulting firm on the side. I was then hired by a small local firm and then a LARGE multinational firm (46,000 employees world-wide).

And all of this was possible because of MY persistence. I never had help from the university other than the fact that I got the job with my professor, which I would like to think was due to the fact that I was a hard worker and an A student.

This woman sounds like someone who does not want to take responsibility for her own failings.

Why not?

It's about time for all these institutions to put their money where their mouth is.

They always claim when you go through the best college or uni then you qualify for some of the best challenging (paid) jobs. Of course, because the so called 'best colleges' often get sponsorships from high profile corporations who have a good chunk of the market to themselves.

Hence the old saying 'who you know' instead of 'what you know' still prevails and shall continue more than ever.

When I first read this "news" story, I thought it was from The Onion. This topic does not warrant serious discussion. Her GPA was 2.7, and she can't find a job? Imagine that.

Rocket Surgeon, I am sitting on the 21st floor of Tower 2 the Petronas Twin Towers right now, and I don't see your shoulder.

Where are you? I don't want to get stepped on.

I don't think it's fair to conclude this person is attempting to milk the system and the school. I suggest that a review of the job success of recent grduates from Monroe College would be good evidence to get to the truth of the question, was her education adequate? The data for such a review should be readily available and should answer the question.

She probably telegraphed her attitude to potential employers who in turn opted to avoid a long term liability. It is no stretch of the imagination to see her suing her employer in a year over being bypassed for advancement.

To answer the questions:

NO!!!

NO!!!

NO!!!

What is going on with the entitlement mindset in this country? I bet she believes that health care insurance is a right too!!

Personally, I think the schools should shut down their job assistance programs.

Hooker <--- old fashioned

Coleges and Universities are Liberal ThinkTanks.... not surprising to see this happen from a recent college grad.

Look at the colleges as a manufacturing facility. Thier product....students. the larger the output of product, the more government cash. Colleges are not supported by students tuition alone

Which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

I worked as an adult studies registrar for a college in Norfolk, VA a few years ago (part time night job). IMO, a lot of the students that got in just because the Feds would loan them the money actually had no business being there. Most of them couldn't pass 6th grade English or math.

But, again, the entitlement mentality... And the BS that everyone should have a college degree.

Hooker

At my alma mater (a small technical college) my last year, because the drop up was so high, to retain these drop-outs they lower the requirements. I was outraged, even though it was hard enough, I thought they should increase it.

But since it was political, I felt it was up to me to get the best education they offered. As were it should be.

But some of the graduates should have been ashamed, because it was a good chance they would not pass, they for a fact, pestered, cajoled the professor/instructors did what ever they could, to bump it to a passing grade. They passed and were proud.

I cant help but think back to my university graduation in 1964. At that time, the economy was in fairly good shape. I only graduated with a 2.93 GPA, but was considered by interviewers as the top of my class of 20 Chem Engs as the 3 graduating engineers having higher GPAs were all headed to grad school. At that time, I had the pick of virtually any job for which I interviewed and I interviewed with 20 companies. Two and a half years later I got to go back to grad school thanks to my departmental professors enrolling me "on probationary basis". In grad school, I maintained a 3.96 GPA average.

All that to say I believe that in addition to her attitude, the state of the economy probably is the major factor in why this student is having a hard time finding a decent job.

On the other hand, I have observed that the number of engineers being graduated from universities in the USA is far in excess of the number needed by industry. Whether this is by design and if so by whose design, I don't know. I do know that in the 1970s, a typical number of PhDs graduating in Chem Eng was ~50-60 /year (across the entire country). A glance at a few current commencement brocheueres suggests there are exponentially more. This would suggest there are multiplied tens of thousands of various BS degree engineers being dumped into the workplace by the universities (in the USA alone) without any consideration of the number of jobs likely to be available. To me, it smacks of "empire building" in universities and a lack of foresight to search out the best entering students for their departments. Just push them on through and collect their tuition.

So, an excessive number of students graduating, poor economy and an average educational background. Why would anyone expect a job under such a situation?

Would you want a doctor who got a 2.7 GPA in school to work on you? Women many times feel that being a woman gives them an advantage over men or that being a woman should allow them a preferential treatment. The attitude, "the world owes me a living" is many times used by individuals and groups in place of scholastic ability and work experience.

Don't play the female card. At least women are getting an education. (Google the ratios) Male or female, until you get that job...looking for it should be your job.

Would you want a doctor who got a 2.7 GPA in school to work on you?

If you can not get a medical degree in this country, they would go to Granada for that.

Women many times feel that being a woman gives them an advantage over men or that being a woman should allow them a preferential treatment.

Maybe, but I've seen men pout because they felt the woman got the job because of that, and nothing to do with that the woman deserve it. (but I never heard of them suing over it though)

Would you want a doctor who got a 2.7 GPA in school to work on you?

No! But realize that even with physicians, half are below average.

Here's an alternative.

I am not surprised by the actions of this student in a time where people can sue the state because they injured themselves falling into a man hole while texting (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/07/girl-falls-into-manhole-while-texting-parents-sue/)

The sad thing is that sometimes the most rediculous claims to entitlement are satisfied and the system is ultimatly cheated. I would like for one of these cases to stray away from the legal fine print and simply say: do better in school and in the words of Willy Wonka ""So You Get Nothing, You Lose! Good Day Sir!"

I am NOT surprised at this. Most young adults feel that they are entitlted to things, that respect is given and not earned. College does NOT guarantee a job - all it promises is an education in a specific field (or in the better ones an education on how to think for yourself). It is up to the individual person to take that education and make it useful NOT the schools. The schools may "help" you find potential jobs but they cannot get them for the individual only the person can do that.

About me-I have a BS in Human Resoursed Management, spent 21 years in the US Navy (nuclear Operator on submarines for most of it). Retired from that and got a job with a boiler company and have moved on from there to be a project engineering manager for an environmental services company - my degree only opened the door to the job with the boiler company (I started as a field service engineer) it was up to me to walk through the door.

do me a favor and learn to take responsibility for your life's circumstances.I'm sorry you are unemployed,so are millions of americans. The times are tough,it builds character, look at this has your life lesson.I'm 53 yrs old made it lost it and amde it and lost this time around. What does your college have to do with your life once you graduate! Go out there and keep on moving forward,are you willing to take any paying legal employment,would you clean offices,wash dishes, are you willing to downscale your expectations?Your college is not responsible for your unemployment. Millions of people around the world graduate and go on with their lifes,I suggest you take responsibility for YOU and don't give up.

While this law suit sounds like a spoiled little girl whining. There may be more than we see. She may be making a statement about Monroe College's inability to adequately educate people for a career following graduation, which should be considered. This employment after graduation may be a pervasive issue for th university and the univserity is falsely advertising the prospects for after graduation employment, you know like a University of Pheonix Ad. A lawsuit could force some improvements in these false advertisements that try to make it appear like you graduate from ITT and have the same possibilities based on education as a graduate of CalTech. If this turns into a class action suit against Monroe University it could be a statement about the inadequacy of that universities educational policies and force them to make a change, and it might be the only way to force a change. Some liberal arts schools push for huge enrollements to get state grant and loans for the attendees, all the time telling them about how great their prospects are and manipulating statistics from former graduates, realizing all the time there are not any where near that many jobs out there as they graduate every year for rennaissance french literature experts.

It always depends on where do you come from. In the US it is easier to get a job, but it is also easier to get fired. In Europe, it is not so easy to get a job and usually you are not so well paid when you start. And as a European, it made an impression to me that you generally expect to get a job right after you graduate from the university. I think that suing the university is not the solution. First of all you are responsible for your academic achievements. It makes sense that the best will be first. Then, your field of expertise is also significant and how saturated is your profession. So, for me the question is not if it is justified to sue the university. For me it is not. The question is, why should you pay for your studies?

Time spent in college and employability are totally unrelated. There are some employed people who have never been inside a college. If you object to being a loser, you might as well sue your cat. Any lawyer that would accept this case should be summarily disbarred and placed under house arrest.

I am a member but don't have time to look up my id and password.

I graduated 2 years ago with a 3.5 GPA avg. It isn't hard to do and I was working full time.

College doesn't guarantee employment. Even though I already have a job the university I graduated from is still sending me announcements for job fairs. They send the announcements to all alumni.

Colleges and Universities that I know provide assistance, about the same kind of assistance as the Unemployment Office for work placement but they don't get you the job. They give you leads.

If she's not taking advantage of these leads, then that's her problem.

With her four year eduction, you'd think she'd have the sense to know that.

This woman is a nitwit.

She is 27 years old with a C+ average. Did she attend school full time or part time? Did she work while attending college? Does she have any significant experience that would help her stand out form the rest of the C+ GPA masses? Is her major field of study a marketable one in the current economy? In our current economic situation "masses" just might be an understatement. There are a lot of things that the article and news clips don't say. She could have been a "professional student" and took twice the time her peers took to graduate. Most employers - I think- would shy away from such a "student" . I myself started college just before my 18th birthday and finished when I was 4 months shy of 22. I also worked 15 - 20 hours a week part time during my semesters. I usually arranged my schedule to have a day or two without classes if possible so I could study or work ( OK - I'll admit it - mostly work ) . I also worked full time summers at a factory in addition to my part time job? I had a goal in mind and the mindset to get it. She obviously does not. She thinks she is "entitled" to a job, life and success. Guess what - she isn't. The only guarantee in life is that some day we die. What happens is what we make of it - most of the time anyway. I find it disturbing that some lawyer would take this case. There was no contract between her and the college. This suit should be bounced out of court as frivolous. What we really need in this country is tort reform to keep the bottom feeders in check. She is even trying to get the taxpayers to pay for her lawyer. Maybe she should move to LA and become another table waiting/bar tending "actor". In any case she has generated so much publicity that no sane employer would touch her with the proverbial 10 foot pole. Best luck to you Trina Thompson - you really deserve it. Ed

I went back to college several years ago and here what I learned. GPA is not by any means an honest or accurate number to use in assessing how someone really did.

Did they get A+ with extra credit in every class related to their field of expertise but only pull the minimum passing grades in the load of non relevant generals and filler classes they were required to have or was it the other way around?

If I wanted to hire a fresh out of college engineer the person who pulled the 2.7 GPA but had A+ with extra credit in the relevant classes is the person I will most favor. Reason being that person knew what was relative and important in regards to what the field they were going into was needing. So what if they cant find North America on a map, has writing skills of a 12 year old, cant name who was king of some country 200 years ago or even tie their shoes properly. IF that person can make impossible engineering problems look like grade school recess they have the job! However if they cant do basic engineering concepts but can list every king of any country going back 200 years I wouldn't hire them.

What I see is the issue of having spent $70,000 and 4 years (or more) on an education when had that person just taken a loan out and lived off off that for 4 years and worked for free in their chosen field they would likely had gotten a far better hands on and relevant education and would have kept the job they learned from in the first place.

Should some people be allowed to sue their college? It all depends on the circumstances. Mostly no but still I think if enough could and did sue them the higher education systems would get their acts together far better than they have it right now.

Why do a good job of educating anyone if they cant do anything about the fact you gave them mostly useless non relevant garbage for the time and money they spent.

In a way I think the higher educational system needs to have a bit of fear in regards to who and what they turn out. It keeps the quality and relevancy much higher when you have something to loose when you don't actually provide the level services you said you are.

Working with Engineers everyday I hear this same attitutde "The important courses are the engineering courses only who cares if they can write or express an opinion well". The fact is the best engineer in the world, one who can solve differential equations in their head and redesign the sphinx but who cannot write a reasonably worded, semi-gramatically correct explaination of what they did or who cannot speak to us "less than engineer" lifeforms in a manner so that we can understand it is totally useless in a corporation. Let them work in R&D or go off by themselves but a company needs people who have those skills taught in the "useless" classes in order to make a project/design work.I would rather work with an engineer who has to go to the books to find answers but can explain them well and present them to a customer well than one who has all the answers but cannot explain them.

I totally agree with you on that point, an engineer who cannot express himself is useless.

I was doing a mod on some units in an old job, I consider myself reasonably educated having a degree in engineering, i read the spec for the mod (written by an engineer in R&D) which was a side and a half of A4 paper. I then read it a second and a third time. Still didnt have a clue what the mod was. In the end I asked one of the operators on the line what the mod was. He did a line drawing and explained that i had to move 3 wires and add a 4th. Took about 5 minutes to explain.

A good engineer has to be able to express himself to everyone! That cannot be learnt in a classroom it has to be done in the field.

The 2.7 tells me that the person is not self motivated. Some thing that I require when hiring new engineers. I expect that they will get with the program quickly. Start to get a reasonable understanding of how employment as an engineer or scientist works in the real world.

I generally tell them they have 3 months to get with the project team and start producing. I also tell them that a productive engineer will return to the company ~300K per year. I expect that level from a junior engineer within a 9 month period.

She should not go to court over this, but instead, look for state employment. That is where the non motivated people are the rule. Not funny, but very true.

She would do better to go into bankruptcy, most likely more successful outcome.

I did interview a PHD ME from MIT (the real MIT). Technically, very good, but the attitude was crap, he expected I would hire him just because he was MIT grad. But he could not get threw the my first "how do you fit in with the team" question.

The technical skills are only 50% of the job, interpersonal skills are critical to the functioning research team. One poor performer on a team can kill the project faster than budget cuts.

I would have a better view of a 2.8 GPA grad that worked at what ever job to get by while trying to capture a position within the field. This shows self motivation, ability to give up on the personal ego, and GED (get err done) attitude.

I would also tell that person, it is easier to hire a new grad who is working at a service job, ie burger flipping, than a grad who is not working. That is the warm fuzzy feeling that this person will be there on time and ready to work (yes, work) and work hard. Engineering jobs are not 40 hr/week positions. They are get the project completed on time and within budget jobs. I can not understand why some of the new grads think that they are now trained and ready to do the job, when they really do not understand the job in the first place.

SC

Seems like everyone is missing the point that will eithwer make or break the law suit. It does not matter if she was a 1.9 GPA or how she interviewed or anything. It only matters if there was an implied contract where in she could make a reasonable assumption that she would be employed upon graduation by attending that university. So the real legal question is not whether she is employable, but rather was there some implied agreement that she would be employable. Again higher education in the Us is a huge multi billion $ business, and the people who market and recruit for schools really push the envelop when they promote their schools. So did they push the envelop too far in this case, and are there similar case such as hers that can help- establish a foundation of a pervasive predatory sales technique, which might indicate that irt was not a single bad employee but school recruitment policy.

RCE:

No we are not.

here is the link to Monroe College and its similar to any other college. (unless there is more than one monroe college)

Can it make your life better, yes it can, the question is she had to do her part and did she, I have a hard time believing of any kind of contract about employment after graduating other than statistics given. But stranger things have happen I guess

here is Monroe College Mission Statement ...........hasn't anybody even looked into this.

phoenix911

Unless there is written wording in her "contract" with the school that she would be guaranteed a job, within her field and making a specific amount of money she has no case. Anything other than that is simply hearsay and she has no case. It really doesn't matter what someone SAYS to you it simply matters whaqt they agree, in writing to. Let the Buyer Beware

True verbal contracts are hard to prove, unless she can bring witnesses who will agree that a similar implied verbal agreement was their understanding too. If she gather sufficient witnesses she can fairly well demonstrate a verbal agreement.

Actually, I believe the point of her lawsuit is that she was not given sufficient help by the Carrer Placement Services because they gave preferrential treatment to students with better GPA's. This will also be difficult to prove unless you can get witnesses to corroborate your claim. It had nothing to do with any promises made by the school specifically, only that she was not given the same level of service based on GPA.

.........maybe Monroe College should be charging her extra tuition, they are still teaching her lessons, ..........strive for a better GPA while your in college

I don't think any university, school, college or institute will/can guarantee job placement. An employment agency doesn't guarantee a job. They may be able to guarantee a job, but it might be at a McDonalds.

Sue your Dad and Mum first because they let you into this miserable world with unemployment.

That's the problem of this world. When you fail, you first find someone to sue before anything else.

Imagine you graduate this year with a finance degree. What's your chance of getting a job in the bank. What about architect, builder? these people earn millions a few years ago. Do they share the wealth with the University to say thank you? What's the University done wrong to deserve being sued? It's just bad luck because you did not know four years ago this would happen.

I believe the University will only be responsible if they give you a degree with sub-standard adn no one in the market wants it in normal situation.

I'm no Sherlock Holmes, but the question is elementary my dear Mr. Watson.

The question of her right to sue the college would more than likely be governed by contract law. If she signed a contract with the college upon her enrollment that the college would guarantee her job placement upon graduation without any reservation, then she would be entitled to sue the college for the damages she sustained because the college did not fulfill their end of the bargain.

As an inducement to get students to enroll in the college, if the college advertised that every person who graduated from the College would have job placement, then, again, she would be entitled to sue the college for failure to perform their end of the bargain.

However if the college simply made "puffing" statements that bragged about how good their college was and that most people who graduated were immediately given jobs would not provide a basis for a lawsuit against the College unless the truth of the matter was that most people who graduated were not immediately given jobs and the claims of the college was a fraudulent inducement to get students to enroll.

If the college breached its contract with her by not finding her a job she would be entitled to recover her actual damages from the college however, if the college is guilty of fraudulent inducement she would be entitled to recover actual damages plus punitive damages for the fraud perpetrated upon her.

Before she files suit against the college she should realize that most states award attorney fees and expenses of litigation to the prevailing party and against the losing party when the court makes a determination that the suit was "frivolous" and without justiciable facts to support it.

Now as a practical matter, I find it hard to believe that a college would promise to unconditionally find a job for its graduate without some serious obligations on the part of the graduate. It sounds as if she is the author of her own misfortunes. Most employers are able to spot an applicant immediately who has a bad attitude and an "entitlement" mindset. If she needs a helping hand she should look at the end of her arm.

it's sad that she has to cope and maybe struggle with a vengeful attitude.

it's sadder that she had to be identified in this article. now a simple google search by a prospective employer will find her name in this forum, with all the bad opinion thrown at her... and you can expect the outcome of that application.

if she'd ask my opinion, I'd recommend that she switch vocations and become a lawyer instead. her "strike-while-it's-hot" attitude will probably work in courtwork as a prosecution lawyer.

that's sad.

Anything that happens in my life is a result of my action, or inaction. I don't know of the college in question, but the college I attend has been a constant help in my quest for self improvement. No matter what I am studying, we are exploring "real world" applications for that subject.

I am getting close to graduation, and it has not been a picnic finding a job,as the market has been constantly changing, so I am changing my tactics, including self-employment to supplementmy income. It is so ironic that I would come across this article,as the other day,I was at the school finishing up a final project for class, and was telling some of the other students that I was considering suing the school because they have shown and helped me to find a way to a better life. I've become a computer draftsman, and now I can't just sit on my sitter and blame someone else for my misfortunes(ie,the man,my Mom and Dad, my high school,my children, etc). I could have been in a bar and/or church somewhere enjoying blissfull "ignorance"asking for a "miracle".

Get up off your sitter, lady, grab something , and your ambition/education will take you past the problems

It is fair to mention not so long ago in the UK a lot of job ads, especially the agency ones, after describing what the expectations are for the vacancy they often mentioned - If you think you can match those criterias and obtained your degree from a reputable university then please do not hesitate to send your application to....

Apart from the UK most G countries within the EU do not even have reputable institutions (if they do then they don't brag about it) yet they are doing both technologically as well as economically better than the UK.

Now, what the hell does that suggest "reputable university" or even college for that matter?

Surprisingly, the UK has one of the lowest educational standards for attaiing a degree in engineering also, while france has the highest. So you can have a reputable university and still obtain a engineering degree in the UK in 3 years. In france in 5 years. In the US the theory is that it is the maximum units a student can take at full time enrollment to graduate just under 4 years, for an ABET engineering degree (typically around 196 to 201 quarter units, at 2 to 3 units per class) though 5 years is more common due to class capacities limitations. The EU does have some plans to standard the degree requirements, however. Thus lowering the french requirements and raising the english, italian, czech, and a few other nations.

No.

She didn't get a job because she may not be of the right attitude, so if she expects someone else to find her a job, then in school she may have had the attitude of "a job done is good enough" instead of "extra is first in extraordinary".

Her 2.7 GPA with perfect attendance may mean that she showed up first to find a seat.or.......

Her 2.7 GPA with perfect attendance may mean that she recognized her shortcomings (Full time job, education lull since high school, family obligations, etc.) and showed up first to blow past her issues to finish. Now she must use those school portfolio class skills to loudly market herself both as a potential employee and as a blogger, consultant, and/or a contractor in her field of study.

She could use the lawyer/lawsuit time to pursue these roads.

In America you can sell ANYTHING! It's not where you start, but THAT you start!!!

She should remember that in America, if you can find a shovel, horse and cow crap. Then mix it with some food waste and grass clippings, you have plant manure fertilizer to market, or if you have some more fermintation time... fuel!

The result is that her degree managed this endeavor to a whole s#i!load of money!

It means that she only put forth enough effort to get a C. She did not put forth that little extra that others did that are beating her out of the jobs.

Regardless of what her passing grade was, she was given the tools and it is up to her to make them work to her advantage. There are interview and resume experts that can give her pointers on how to overcome a 2.7 GPA.

I really don't see why she couldn't have gotten better. I got a 3.5 GPA and I worked full time with overtime Monday thru Saturday, practically the entire three years I was schooling and am a single parent. It took me three years from start to finish to get a BSBA. I'm no genius but I was able to do what it takes to get it done and the classes weren't all that difficult, except for the Statistics classes and Algebra, after 20 years since doing Algebra in High School, relearning it was kind of hard.

Just figured this was relevant even though it has been a year:

white college graduate turns down a $40,000 job

From the linked article:

Saw this over at Shakesville. It's a New York Times article about a white college graduate who turned down a $40,000 job:

"Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder."

The vocational bloggers in that article seemed to have the same prevailing attitude as here: if we presume (that is to say, disregard) that (in that case) white guy's thoughts and attitudes, we can also apply every inane and trite stereotype (in other words, ape all the pc, pseudo-truisms currently in fashion...). The presumption there was that the oh-so-priveleged and pampered white person was haughtily presuming that the amount offered wasn't good enough ....

Reading the same thing without any preconception (or politically correct prejudice) might lead us to an unslanted interpretation based on what was actually said: that in spite of possible priveleged status that led to a generous entry level offer, the young fellow was willing to accept less money (and less status and rank) in order to attain an initial placement more in line with his longer term career objectives.

For that person, or his ilk) to be disparaged for having the courage of conviction not to follow the herd (including such as the CR4 membership herd) ... could it be that he knows something about the attainment of status, wealth, and privelege that most (including most news writers and editors of major papers) do not?

One the other hand, it the ladder position does not materialize, or doesn't do so soon enough, we could find our intrepid career seeker in dire straits, agreeing to an even lesser job going in the wrong direction. But, naivete and youth (and college degrees) oft go hand in hand. All too soon he might learn that college prep and workaday world have little in common; and that an employer is often moved not be what a person thinks they were "trained" to do; but by the fact that s/he is unwilling to let idleness become a way of life when any type of gainful activity is available. People who settle for less while pursuing (not waiting for) more are the kind that most employers would relate to. Seeking perfection in such an imperfect world... a path to much grief.

I don't think this guy will have much of a leg to stand on as far as any potential suit against his institution of learning, as he did get a job offer. Whether or not he ought to have taken the job is another question.

20 years can go by in the blink of an eye. On one hand it is correct that in youth it is advisable to not waste time on dead ends, but on the other hand it is a dead end already to be unemployed. Many many of us end up taking what we can get, and doing the best we can.

It is also true that some places are more populated by the sorts of businesses and people doing what you might want to do, than others. The individual who will not move to the places where they have value, and value that place and those people will find they are very likely to be forced eventually to settle.

Youth does have some advantage over age in that it becomes increasingly hard to move as one gets older.

Internet searches for jobs are over rated. Go where the work is, and hang out where you want to be, and with the people you want to work with. "There is no substitute for personal contact in business."

Transcendian,

I think your points are all very valid, and succinctly expressed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the guy who was holding out for a (possibly) lesser but potentially more career-oriented position is the same as the person (female?) whose lawyer initiated legal action against her school on her behalf. My first post (#84, dealing with the latter), attempting not to cast judgment either way, merely states some hypothetical conditions in which, from a legal standpoint, a legal action might be feasible and justifiable. After all, news reports about such things almost never include the necessary details...only the sensational (raw emotion invoking) aspects. I don't disagree with your "take": that her chances of prevailing (in court, that is) are not a "slam dunk"; however, I can't imagine that her or any attorney (at law) would have expected to go to trial; ... only to obtain a settlement. In deciding whether the university would settle just to make her go away, or spend a potentially large sum "standing on its legs" ... well, that's a different matter. If the university realized it might possibly (in a judge's eyes) have made some mistakes (such as were listed in #84), then all parties, for their own reasons, might not want to proceed to trial. (I would guess quite confidently, that it was a lawyer who led the graduate to believe that there was something to gain by litigating.)

I tried to look at both sides of the "job-offer-hold-out" fellow -- his (likewise seemingly audacious) story was posted (#89 by Shakespeare...) to augment the initial topic about suing one's college and/or college placement service. In that regard, there is much to be said for the notion of not being too tempted by an offer, especially a lucrative offer; or too willing in the resort (now or down the road) to fall back positions -- after all, I was always taught (or given the sop)--perhaps too much--that it is good to have something in the way of skills or experience to fall back on when the going gets rough; I would assume that (at least until recent times) many others were so taught as well(?)) It was only after that one refusal to fall back, that I found satisfactory advance of career in terms both of income and position. Curiously, it was that same "breakthrough" in which experience in a different industry, which I almost regretted exposing, was the very thing that the interviewer saw as an asset in the engineering group supervisory role that needed filling. (Even more curiously, I was advised by a reliable source, my boss, that I had settle too low on salary; I could only chalk it up as a lesson learned: that falling back or taking offers too readily can be equally an evil as a virtue. However, if ever there is a time when one has the time to take risks, it is while still youthful.)

I had a case when working freelance, which I did for 20 years out of my career life, where someone called and said, "I know you are desperate and must take this job." It is a good thing for them that this was a telephone conversation.

I don't have to do anything. "Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile."

Work is a spiritual struggle for the material necessities.

How to pick a job: Good money, Good Project, Good people; Must have two out of three.

Far as work is concerned, I am a veteran.

- "I worked, I fought, I got the money." RSD. P.S. Let us consider the situation for many in the Gulf of Mexico. BP was unsafe to work for and people died. Poisoning of the Gulf of Mexico has put those who did not work for BP or the US government in the position of being told they must conform to get a paycheck from either BP or the Government. If they react by killing people who insult them they will go to prison, or be killed. Far as I can tell the wage slaves get bad money, work for bad people, on a bad project.

Pay me or I leave. "I was looking for a job when I found this one."

I just keep coming back to the notion that someone is turning down good money when they are unemployed. I think, why not keep looking for a better job while you start the one you were offered instead of living of your parents in your mid-20's!

But ethically, is it disingenuous to accept a position if you are going to continue to look for something that is more your style or to your liking?

I might be off as I have had a job, either part of full time, since I was 13 years old. If I wanted to do something, my father expected me to contribute to its cost. It is a lesson I am glad that I learned, but maybe it is coloring my views on this.

But ethically, is it disingenuous to accept a position if you are going to continue to look for something that is more your style or to your liking?

Absolutely not. It's life. Sometimes jobs are just stepping stones to a better job, sometimes they are not. It can be downright necessary to accept a position even if you are looking for another (hopefully better) job; there will still be bills to pay when you get home. Unless your parents give you everything you need - I am talking more than just food, water, and shelter (expenses like gas money, car insurance, money to go out to eat with friends once in a while, etc.) - you need to have money on hand.

If you are in your mid-20s and not doing your best to become more independent from your parents, it is about time that you grew up (you know who "you" are).

But should you be direct with your employer? It costs money to train new employees and probably results in a dip in productivity as they get up to speed. Ethically, should someone be forthright about their intentions?

I don't think many employers want to hire someone who is just using their job as a stepping stone, but I don't like the idea of taking a position only to potentially leave it a few weeks or months later, either.

Like I said. Some people just don't have a choice. It is either money or no money. If you really don't want the job and you are financially stable, don't take the job. I don't think the potential candidate for a job needs to come out and say "After a couple of months I may choose to move to a different job." That is something that a company needs to prepare for. Not everyone that companies hire as a 20-something-year-old is going to end up retiring there. Employers know that.

If you are hard-working, there is no reason to risk losing a job in the interview room. I figure that a few months of honest hard-work and integrity is worth much more than a long-term of low quality. It costs money to do everything these days; training new employees is an investment. Just like all investments, sometimes it doesn't work out.

Personally speaking, if I have been there a few years and looking for alternate employment opportunities, I would definitely let my employer know. But that is not something that I would ever say in an interview. I would suspect that being forthright would definitely tarnish your chance at getting the job, and that is something that, in this economy, is too risky.