Water to Power Plant (Hydrogen) Offered as Water Purification.

What is wrong with conventional sewage treatment operations, Mildred?

This is Africa - The area where the sewage comes from is overpopulated by a factor of 3 to 4 . We are not known for the ability to plan or follow orders in legislation.

Expansion of the existing plant is impossible because the adjacent land belong to investors from abroad intending to make profit .

We are also plagued by wise guys attempting to sell wild ideas to clueless politicians.

BTW we will need at least 100 units to make a dent.

Perhaps you can convince these "investors from abroad" for investment in a Tootsie Roll factory?

Tootsie has a completely different meaning in Africa and the Middle East. Be careful of terminology please! Just a friendly suggestion...

Oh smack...the word is Hootsie not Tootsie.

What they need is an IBC of poopourie.

Tootsie Roll Factory was a term my friend, a heavy equipment engineer, came up with after unsuccessfuly arguing against the operation of large and expensive Cat engines on sour gas without treatment of the gas. What was intended to be a revolutionary method for methane energy recovery at a new treatment plant, became a major money loser. I suspect the cost of scrubbers alone would have put them in the red anyway.

Investors from ABROAD ? Expropriate their land !!! Any independent country has that right, and it is more than justified if it comes to environmental issues.

Then, calmly expand your plant according to what it's known to have worked in the past.

Tell your politicians they don't need tech. expertise, they need guts!... but do it this way: Dear Mr. Whom Ever, I'll be pleased to take the technical matters on my hands and assure you the fullest completion of this patriotic endeavor, all I need from this office is to sign up the expropriation act... etc etc. etc.

That is going to take several politicians with incredibly large juevos. From what I understand, it is still a very volatile area. However, you are 100% correct in being able to take the land under eminent domain. A politician is concerned with making money or gaining power first, their life second and their constituents LAST!!!!

What works in Mexico, expropriation, in terms of your corrupt government, is very easily called theft in other countries. I know of a large, successful farmer in the community I grew up in here in Texas that developed 24 row planting equipment back in the 1960's. It was so productive and efficient, that he was approached by the Mexican government to bring some equipment there and set up large plantings (I forget which State in Mexico). After two seasons, the Mexican government apparently decided they liked what he was doing, but also decided he was making money off the deal, so they "expropriated" his holdings, his equipment, and all other assets in Mexico. In my view, that is plain and simple theft.

Please do not go exporting your crappy idea of right and wrong to the rest of the world, it is not needed. Besides, I think you misunderstood the OP, where it was his local government bringing in this American-owned (but probably fraudulent company), and one only has to look at court records in the United States to find out.

By the way, I also object strenuously to the porous border between Mexico and the United States. If it were up to me, we would still have the Texas Rangers down there with sniper rifles picking off the stragglers like they used to. It would solve a lot of problems on this side. The very fact that people want out of your sub-standard countries in Central America is a testament to the greatness of the United States, but we are too easy, and it should stop.

Thanks - GA

That was the reply I expected.

You need top speak to Windhoek municipality. They have been producing potable water from sewage since the sixties...that was a good decade for convincing gullible people though....wonder what was in that mix ?

Please explain how the removal of water from a sewage stream represents treatment of sewage. Ordinarily it is the removal of solids and dissolved nutrients from the sewage stream before its return to the environment that constitutes treatment.

Must electrical arcs from welding and plasma cutting produce high levels of UV light. As the need to wear protective clothing. Have seen what it can do to exposed skin first hand. Talk about bad sun burn.

UV has been used to kill bacteria so I googled and found this.

http://www.plasmas.org/rot-environment.htm

It also can be used to change organic matter to syngas.

I remember this guy trying to get the City of Henderson to try one of his wild ideas. We asked him to prove his technology and he was either unwilling or unable to show us the process so we "passed" on his proposal!

These guys look like they are incorporating dishonest marketing at best, scam artists at worst. Here's a link to the secret process magic water they sell.

http://www.langenburgwater.com/p/water/process

All harmful toxic chemical and radioactive pollutants, deuterium, tritium, bacteria, viruses, fungi and other pathogens are removed.......

We structure the water so that its liquid crystalline and energetic properties are restored.

Steer well clear of this crowd, there are plenty of water treatment and purification alternatives from proven and reputable suppliers.

So they are converting waste water (water and the waste matter it contains, so not just water electrolysis producing hydrogen or Brown's gas) it to gas and using less energy to power the process than they produce.

Now where have I heard that before.

http://www.waste-management-world.com/articles/print/volume-10/issue-4/features/plasma-gasification-clean-renewable-fuel-through-vaporization-of-waste.html

Looks borderline believable with solid waste but I am not so sure with a liquid where a large proportion is water (and difficult to break molecular bonds and high heat dissipation properties).

Anyone got any links to current credible research into proving claims and payback periods (landfill waste or liquid sludge)? I would be very interested to see if this technology is viable as a 'cleanish' energy source.

They wanted us to front them approx. $4,000,000.00 U.S. to install their plant

Your expected to pay for the plant AND land lease for a minimum contract period with them of 20 years, what a steal. Are they mad, not even if the technology WAS proven?

Right you are!

Any time a company won't even let you see the actual device, it's gotta be a scam!

You first need to know what the chemistry of the "water" is and what you want to separate or liquidate and what you need to keep.

Has a analysis been done?

If e.g. hydrocarbons are present, they will not be removed.

You need oxygen and bacterial processes for that. UV is not healthy for the bacteries too.

Even from your short description it smells (of fraud at least!!)!!

Leave it alone....

It's bottled bullshine. Invest in something else.

The best strategy is to treat the sewage for agricultural use grade, before entry into the river.

II best option is to treat the river water to potable quality using traditional chlorine treatment.

There is one possibility of Hydro power generation & desalination using dam less hydro power technology.

It is all about who is really serious about water pollution & waste water recovery & reuse.

Langenburg technologies reminds me of the billion dollar daydream called "Huemul Project" (1949, argentina)!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huemul_Project

Hendrik: The mechanical purification is just basic stuff. Does that at least include minimal filtration? The vendor you are considering is in Eugene, Oregon, and as far as I can tell, they wave the "magic wand" over what is probably already pristine mountain spring water in a high rain area. Not too hard to "purify" what is already better than what I consider drinkable. Most of their information is apparently from a "greenie" POV, that condemns mankind for living on the planet in the first case, then provides a manifesto that unless the water goes through their magical process, it is unfit to drink. This is mostly undiluted Hog Swill, as it has nothing to do with worldwide drinking water standards that are long-established. Certainly, all of my above comments are (1) based upon my humble opinion, and (2) designed to elicit a hostile response from this vendor, whereupon I will be forced to respond in kind, probably with a Federal Freedom of Speech lawsuit.

Having stated what I have, there is also other sanitizing technologies that are worthy of mention where water are badly polluted from even human waste. One of which is chlorine dioxide, another is ozone, but the latest that has an reduction potential of 2.80 V is OH• (hydroxyl neutral free radical). This is THE top oxidizer in water systems, even above ozone. It can be made on TiO2 surfaces photo-catalytically, and can be made from humid air plasma discharge, and then educted into the water.

I challenge you to do your own research on these systems, and sort out the ham from the spam. Clearly, when using any form of oxidizing treatment, all depends on the redox potential of the agent used, the concentration of the agent, and the contact time, plus in some cases pH is a large consideration. If potable water is desired from untreated mixed effluent, one will want to provide an aggressive filtration as possible, up to and including microfiltration, ultrafiltration, or maybe something like forward osmosis (very robust membranes, with zero leakage verified) using a thermolytic salt (uses waste heat from industrial process or solar heat to 60 °C to break the draw solution to pure water).

Dear all

To put the record straight - I am not the decision maker - I am retired and a volunteer . Comment on national law (mostly successful) and assist local government (not to waste my tax money)

On the forum with the municipality known as the Google task team - Identified the problems on Google earth (common sense) and some research .

The problematic sediment and the source (Syenite dike and sills ) and the water quality were analysed (water as close to sewage as could be).

The agent did receive my notes to the counsellor and now claim that he is on vacation (until further notice)

The scam is :- they require a connection to the grid - the municipality does not meter their own use and will never know that they are paying for electricity "generated' and sold back to them.

A municipality prepared to sign the contract deserve to suffer (as long as it is not mine).

I was in Southern Nevada working on electrical testing for a large project for the SNWA (Southern Nevada Water Authority) when Langenburg tried to sell them on this idea. While they made some inroads with the managers and politicians involved, the technical people were not impressed and thought it was not feasible or economical. As far as I know it has never been used by them.

SNWA takes most of their water from Lake Mead which is highly alkaline and needs a lot of treatment. All sewage treatment, including including industrial water from Henderson and surface runoff from streets empties into Vegas Wash which flows into Lake Mead north of the intake to the water treatment plant. Lake Mead generaly flows from North to South and if viewed from the air it is easy to see that the effluent flows right to the intake by the brown stain in the water. Conventional water treatment is used for the water supplied to Las Vegas. All tests show that the water is perfectly safe, although still somewhat alkaline, so the taste is not to everyone's pallet. Previous to this arrangement, a proposal to take the treated effluent directly from the sewage plants to save many millions per year on electricity for pumping had been defeated by voters.

San Diego, CA, USA, proposed to their voters a number of years ago to lower costs by taking the output of the sewage plants and treating it for drinking water. This caused quite an uproar from the population of San Diego until Orange County California a little north of that said, what is the problem, we have been doing that for the last 15 years. After that both San Diego and Orange County residents were upset.

These involve normal treatment plants of conventional design. No special process such as Langenburg was used. If the technical people from SNWA are correct, it offered no economic value from conventional processes which work fine. I would want to see if Langenburg can show a cost reduction from an area that used conventional process for the same operation and then reduced cost by going with them.

Does anyone know where Langenburg is used? I found a lot about it on google but no facilities reporting that they used it and saved a lot of money with it. If a municipal water source saved money, they would be bragging about it.

Lastly, unless you live near a mountain top, you are probably drinking water that has at some time been tainted with sewage or affluent of some kind. Water is still probably safer to drink than many of the bottled drinks many consume. I remember though when I had a large project that required so many engineers, that we had to bring them in from other countries. I took a group of Mexican engineers to a chain restaurant in Birmingham, AL, USA. They asked me if it was safe to drink the water and I assured them that the drinking water in Jefferson County was one of the safest in the nation. They got sick and were not able to work the next day after drinking the water. I drank the water and had no problems.

I suppose that one man's life elixir is another man's poison. Anywhere a city pulls water from a river or stream for a large municipal water supply, there is at least a 50% probability that another large municipality has already used that water once. So if Denver flushes the toilet, Omaha gets a drink.

I once knew a very astute chemical physicist (theoretician) who loved hiking in the Uintah mountains of NE Utah. He took a drink from what he thought was a pristine mountain stream of running melt-off snow, only to find a dead cow in stream about 200 yards upstream. He came down with amoebic dysentery and lost so much weight, he nearly died.

Basic idea: Never drink after a horse, much less a dead horse.

I still stand on my statement about hydroxyl radical being the top oxidant, far superior to anything else in removing parasitic organisms, pathogens, various bacteria, viruses, algae, protozoans, TOC, etc. from water (without cooking the hell out of it), and might I add that it also takes care of "fishy taste and odor" with perfect efficiency, all without the nasty chloramine, or chloramine after taste.

One little detail: any oxidization process does not remove any organisms; it simply renders them harmless.

By removing, I am referring to completely destroying the organism, and all the organic chemistry within it to carbon dioxide, depending on sufficiency of dosing, which some of the other oxidants cannot do.

Oh Really! I was not aware that was even possible. Thanks. Obviously I need to do some more research, although it's pretty far out of my field...

I stand corrected!

If you google recent articles about hydroxyl radical you may find something useful. this has been known for a considerable time (although produced in the past by Fenton's reagent), now it can be done with a plasma discharge in humid ~saturated air. I think in time, it may well replace the use of chlorine with its nasty organic by products.

4wsilver,

We may have met at one point in Las Vegas or Henderson at one point. I was involved in one way or another with many of the projects you mentioned.

True, The treated effluent from all of the waste water treatment plants and untreated street or flood runoff flow into the Las Vegas Wash which then flows via large ducts under Lake Las Vegas.

Lake Las Vegas doesn't get its water from the wash, it purchases (or at least used to) water from Basic Electric and Water Company and pumps water into their "artificial" lake.

During the short HEAVY rainy season here in town the Wash ducts will back-up and overflow directly into Lake Las Vegas which then flows into Lake Mead. I have pictures of the mayhem! If the maintenance personnel aren't quick enough to clean their Bar-rack, the water will flood Lake Las Vegas Sewage Lift Station and the surrounding areas. YES, their maintenance personnel must drive to the bar-rack, climb into a Trak-Hoe and pull the debris off of the bar-rack and deposit it on dry land.

Yes, the politicians and the management for the City of Henderson were very "starry eyed" at the thought of free electricity and getting the waste water treated!

I credit the entire staff of OPERATORS at the City of Henderson Waste Water Reclamation Facility for keeping the "people in the ivory tower" (politicians and management) from making a huge blunder and falling for the SMOKE AND MIRRORS!

I remember one of the Operators commented in a meeting with the Langenburg salesmen (or whatever they were calling themselves at that time) "I guess I shouldn't look behind the curtain" "I guess the great OZ is in there making ELECTRICITY and treating the waste water??" That was shortly before they quietly went away!

I guess they weren't able to scam anyone in the U.S.A. so they had to go to South Africa to scam those politicians with the starry eyes!

Steps down off soapbox!

Good luck!?!?

It sounds like the river is being polluted from sewage entering at multiple locations; i. e., the extent of any collection system (probably open ditches along roads, etc.) is simply to get the domestic sewage out of the business and homes and washed down the ditches by combined rain run-off or just the sewage water during the dry season.

I did a design of a very simple single stage treatment system for Luang Prabang (Again, politicians did not see much graft opportunity, ergo, no construction.) on the Mekong about 15 years ago. It used largely local materials and very little electricity for a rotary lobe aerator controlled by a DO sensor. (A modern update could be solar powered in a balanced pattern with a grid inter-connect.) It included a suspended solids sedimentation/quasi-filtration feature. There were about 40 defined points of discharge, almost all of which were suited for the design. The system could operate without maintenance for an average of three months, with a major three-day down time maintenance at the peak of each dry season.

I am part of a group of representatives for Langenberg. I have seen their prototype mobile application of water reclamation and the clean water product as well as electrical power generation from a 1.2 MW system. I have yet to see any of the other models they promote but know that they have 2 projects known at present with Indonesia, and a Conversion of a Coal plant in the US. Status of both not completed yet. Their system is quite unique and they have a project development program that suites Utilities and Government entities. Any correspondence is for project development only. So if you don't currently need their product good luck trying to meet with the principals. Otherwise an NDA and LOI are needed to proceed. If acceptable, a PPA and 3.5 million USD are needed to begin site study and an Agreement to develop and purchase the water and power byproducts generated. Its a minimum 15 year agreement. Contact me if you need further information.

David Baca

MSMART Consulting, LLC

david@msmartcorp.com

+1-949-400-0617

I understand your frustration. We were representing another Country for 3 240MW units and the deposit structure changed. We tried to bring another African and Honduran Clients as well as another major client for desalinization. All were shunned by Langenburg. I understand they may have some issues from 7 to 9 years ago unrelated to their technology. I have visited their facility and know of the other manufacturer that they work with. Actually saw a signed letter from the president of that company congratulating Langenburg after viewing their 2MW version test. Word has it they are working on a Coal facility to convert with their system. I've seen their machine shop and their water distribution location. But again it was a wasted trip for me. I can only say that they are real German Engineers and the like and have some proprietary systems for water reclamation. Getting them to talk means showing them the signed NDA, providing a government certified Letter of Intent to Purchase the water and power, produced and generated. Also agree to to execute a Product Purchase Agreement post proof of service at their facility in USA and once the PPA is executed be prepared to deposit 3.5 million for discovery, design specific to your needs and feasibility study based on location attributes. The rest is used for maintenance of the system over the next 15 years. You will also have to agree to provide the proper sight and board with security and travel to location and back to originating location. Of course they claim that if the study does not pass to proceed that the remaining money less expenses will be returned. I could act as your agent but that would mean your commitment to my fees for getting them to accept your LOI, etcetera.

I do have LED Lighting that will disinfect rooms and restrooms, offices, homes, schools etc. If your interested. Hope this was of some help. david@msmartcorp.com

Sounds to me like the donkey and the carrot, only this Langenburg wants to play hide the carrot in your poop chute, and not even let you chase it.

I say screw them, make your own. They are stinking Germans anyway.