Pull Or Push: Pumping Water up to 15ft in Height

I like the idea of a shallow well pump...something like this would work great and let me adjust the flow rate with a simple valve.

http://www.powerequipmentdirect.com/Bur-Cam-503127S-Water-Pump/p7184.html

Jet pumps are quite versatile, and as you've noticed it's very easy to adjust flow over a decent range. Just be aware that the educator can wear out after a while if the water is abrasive (sandy etc.).

Mounting the pump low will almost always be the best choice. Do you know how many gpm you need? "Little Giant" probably has some economical pumps in your range, or you might find a small bilge pump from a boat store, or an aquarium pump. Shopping around can lead you to a good choice.

You had it all covered. I should have read you entire post.

By the 7th post I would never count on having read all the others accurately either!

Try small drainage pump.

You said it all and correctly. GA.

I vote for push too because then you have a lot more choice for piping because you won't have to worry about 'crush', just 'splode'.

You could pull it up, but you'd need a foot valve at the bottom to keep the pipe full.

I'd push it.

Foot valve is simple enough, and a shallow well pump with a tank would mean the pump would not run continuously.

Push, but if location is a problem mount it as low as is practical.

You can pump to several bar... you can only ever suck to 1 bar.

Del

OK - so push is better. Can I use a shallow well pump with a pressure tank at the bottom of the hill, next to the pond, and push it up to the top with the pressure in the tank? I like the idea of a tank so the pump doesn't have to run all the time. As far as GPH I have no idea...At the top it could have something the size of a small wading pool. Say 4ft across, that would fill and then have an out flow down some rocks and back into the pond below. Just a large "trickle" I think!

errrr. I don't understand . unless you are wanting to pump water into a tank like an inverted U, presurising an air bubble at the top of the tank which then will release pressure by forcing water up and out?

Most water feature pumps just run continuously when you want the feature on. I have such a thing in the garden ,but it's only a few feet of head.

The pump in the bottom pond pushes water into a small top pond (about 3' diameter 6" deep) this evens out the flow and allows any sediment to drop out, allows birds etc to drink too. The outlet is a small waterfall back to the bottom pond.

(Maybe I could use this to run a waterwheel to power the pump? ... )

Main problem is when the outlet ( a weir about 6" wide) gets blocked with fallen leaves in Autumn... the water level in the top pond can rise and overflow which can potentially empty the bottom pond

Simple is best.

Del

Pressure tanks typically have an air bladder inside that is pre set to some pressure, like 25psi. That's what I was referring too. It sounds like continuous running might be the way to go, and what you have is pretty close to what I have in mind, just different height to pump, basically.

I will have the problem of leaves to deal with as well. Both the top and bottom pond will see a lot of leaves. That's probably the signal to shut it down, remove and drain the pump for the winter!

I found a great web site (ain't GOOGLE wonderful?) http://www.pondmarket.com/catalog/index.cfm/product/1922_59/tidalwave-tw3-series-asynchronous-pumps.cfm?CFID=37798103&CFTOKEN=99977009

Looks like I'll need something in the range of 20ft of head! So now I'm ready to save up money to get the pieces for this next project! Thanks for all the input. As usual I've learned some new things from the "masters" here on CR4.

If you want interesting and not running extra electrical wiring, see if you can come up with an Archimedes screw (or 2) to do the lifting for you. That's what I would call an interesting water feature.

You can, but it might not be practical!

Let's do some quick calculations. Figure on a 10 USGPM flow rate ( about what a garden hose with VERY good pressure will do, flat out). You have 6 psi water column loss, let's just double that for all piping losses. So 12 psi pressure drop to the pipe end.

Pressure tanks work off of a cycle- pump runs up the pressure between 20 or 30 psi, shuts off, and the tank supplies water down to the cut in pressure where the pump kicks in again. To make this work simply you need to restrict the flow enough that the pump will fill the tank while still flowing through the pipe. So your pump has to be big enough to do this and the water will flow in a cycle- lowest flow when the tank is almost drained, probably doubling as the pump kicks in, increasing as the pump fills the tank and the line pressure rises, and then cutting back as the pump stops and tank pressure drops.

Myself, I wouldn't bother.

Then you haven't met Cruella, who can suck two bar. (A supernatural miracle.)

But can Cruella hum a few bars, also?

If you are in to repurposing, here is a pump you can make using a tire for the chamber, with disks on the beads. I figure a 475Lb person could easily get the head pressure you need.

I think one is supposed to crank the crank, while heavy bastage stands on the tire yelling for more output. Sounds like a hostile work environment to me.

Perchance, could find someone who could be put into indentured service√¿

I thought you Cannucks did not cotten to slavery?

You are correct, but it seems that some of the ideas are in same time period as slavery¡¡ So why not compete the circle??

Forget the pump. Just build one of theses

Get yourself down to your local tool vendor and ask for submersible pumps with at least 15ft of lift. That's what I'd do, then I'm funny that way.

I still like the elegant simplicity of a rope pump. You get to pull on the rope that pushes the water.

hmmmm maybe I can make a treadmill for the dogs, that drives that rope!

Or for the wife?

How many midgets does it take to make the pump produce 1 gpm?

Or you could enjoy this when not pumping:

Wen-den-den-den-Weeen-den-den-den.

You can push water as hard as you want. You can only pull it so much before it boils.

If you want a heavier duty eletric pump, that pull the fluid, there are several manufacturers online for tank pumps. They look at how many gallons per hour you want. They range from under $75 on up.

Also most well water is pulled so any one of those pumps should work for this kind of project. Your also talking about a pump made with metal parts not plastic which you find with pond pumps.

Use a reciprocating pump and place it at down the hill so it pushes the water up. Push is better than pull

15" is not much of a suction. Any self priming centrifugal pump with a foot valve will work.

Sorry. Typho. 15' not 15".

Tom,

Have you got surplus flow at your source? Could you consider a Ram? No power supply required. All you need is a constant flow and once set up it will deliver a percentage of the available flow to a considerable height.

don.ras.

Where do we find calculations for an hydraulic ram discharging at 15 feet head?

Did you look here:-

How to Build a Hydraulic Ram!!

Also, you may need to make two, one feeding the other.....

Thank you. The table is useful.

Will ram pump work if water is stationary in a pond.

No. That would perpetual motion of the third kind, or the tired kind. If you use midgets (like Noudge) you will not have to count the work done, but that is perpetual motion of the bean kind. And I have not been kind.

First of all decide what sort of flow would appeal to you and yours. One of these will give a good effect with a lower flow;

http://www.creativepumps.com.au/fountainparts/water_trough/pool_spa_spillways/waterblade/waterblade_waterfalls_led.htm

Jim

I was going to suggest an Archemedes Screw myself.

15' rise, 30' run, that's a 22.5 degree angle, plenty of working space for the screw.

As a bonus the 'pump' now becomes an interesting part of the water feature, like the proposed water wheel.

An Archimedes screw using a clear pvc pipe would probably look interesting.

Like this.

Now THAT is am impressive screw!

When you get to may age....you will take any screw you can get!

The only problem is the price of the screw! Unless you have the facilities to fabricate your own screw, it will be very expensive. Cool, but expensive!

They can't be THAT hard to build, they're pretty popular in developing nations as irrigation pumps. it all depends on what you want to make it out of and how 'efficient' you want it to be. There's always some 'flowback,' even at higher speeds, unless you add a gasket to seal the screw against the tube, but then you've got a wear component (the gasket) to maintain.

15' rise, 30' run, that's about 33-34 feet of screw, might not be easy to build it in a single piece, but you could do it with multiple shorter screws, each lifting the water to an intermediate bond that supplies the next screw. The multiple lifts would look even more interesting to the garden patrons.

True, Screw pumps are reliable and can be driven by very low HP motors. The toughest part is the flights and getting a continuous flowing curve.

Alright, now you've got me wondering.

What would happen if you built one as an external screw- take a piece of 6" pipe for the core for example, and wrap it with 2" or 3" hose. Have it so the feed end dips in the water for about the bottom 1/2 revolution. Any idea how well that might work?

I've seen a screw made and used from a garden hose wrapped around a rotating spit.

That should work just fine, in fact, it might be an improvement on the efficiency of the internal screw design, since the water cannot fall back past the screw blade.

You just lose some efficiency for the size, since the external screw design would scoop less water per turn than the same sized internal screw design. which is better pretty much depends on available materials, available operating space, and available motive power. Internal screw systems lose less water to spillback the faster they turn.

Boy, did I ever get everyone well of topic!! All interesting ideas though¡¿

We're Engineers, you expect us to keep our trains of thought from derailing?

(waits for the first found of groans, then the second round as the people who didn't get it at first catch on)

Besides, topics like this are FUN, we look at ideas, figure out possibilities, and in the end come up with designs that are not only cool engineering, but also aesthetically pleasing. Projects that will entrance the youth and show them the wonder and beauty in science.

Remember, we all should be getting the youth fired up about STEAM:

• Science
• Technology
• Engineering
• Art
• Math

There is one thing that I have wanted to do for a long time.

I want to set-up a training shop that will introduce young people that are interested in mechanics or electronics and give them free access to the shop and my skills and possibly the skills of others that would donate their time to help kids learn what made our country great!

In my garage, I want to have a lathe, mill, 3D printer, CNC router, EDM machine and all the associated tools that are in a machine shop. All of the machines would be of a hobby or small size.

I have said that if you are able to introduce the youth of today to a class that is engaging and interesting, that they may take a different path like becoming an engineer or a machinist instead of trying to fit into the sterile school curriculum where auto shop and wood shop have been cancelled.

What happened to the technical classes when I was in school?

I learned.....

• Machine shop
• Auto shop
• Wood shop
• Metal shop
• Drafting
• Electronics
• Photography
• Screen printing
• Offset printing

Those classes shaped my life into what I am today. A dedicated hands on can do man that is able to do almost anything I want. Do I need assistance? YES! I appreciate the help that others give so freely to me.

I'm grateful!

It doesn't appear that any "youth" are partaking in this thread. It's hard to get them interested, or even thinking for themselves for that matter.

No, without modern tools it is almost impossible to build an Archimedes screw. For millennia lurkers on the internet have been wondering if this pump design and the mythical machines of a Trebuchet and Ballista actually work.

You forgot the "aroogah aroogah sarcsm alert" You nearly had me biting.

Stupid kitty.

Can't build a working boomerang without CAD and a degree in aeronautical engineering

Del

(Sorry, that was one bandwagon I couldn't resist jumping on.)

With this perpetual motion version, you could grind corn and offset the cost. I suspect the guy that drew this was into sour mash.

You will need a large diameter suction pipe to reduce pressure losses which in it's wake requires heavy duty thick wall hoses to prevent collapse under suction.

Far better to put the pump at the bottom.

For those of you that don't want to read this thread from the beginning, I've found my solution and thanks again for all the suggestions.

see #16...

My apologies, I got carried away.....in a straight jacket.

Besides, there is a flaw in the motorcycle/water pump, having to do with cooling the engine.

No need to apologize. It's always fun to see what rabbit holes we can go down in a discussion...and we could build a water cooled version of the bike!

GPH?

3000

Will your well(?) support 3000 GPH?

My well has nothing to do with this!

OK, just checking.

Enjoy the splash!

About the only pump very good at sucking water vertically is a peristaltic. They are what we use to pump chemicals from a drum on process skids as they can be mounted above the drum, require only a piece of flexible tubing into the drum, and are very easy to get primed. You don't mention volume of water, but considering the use, I expect it will be rather significant. There is your problem with a peristaltic, as they are typically called "metering" pumps - the most probable flow rates you will want will be very costly, or not available at all. I've seen 35gpm units advertised, but are afraid to ask the price of one. If cost is not an issue, or you are just looking for a very small cataract for your garden railroad layout, not Angel Falls, then the peristaltic can be mounted on the hill.

Coming late to the discussion, I would suggest an Archimedean screw, with a driving motor at the top.

Wayne wpc 250 / $47.50

Try Harbor Freight. This is a fairly good pump that I use for when it rains and floods my backyard.

The previous owners decided to bring in fill dirt to level the yard.

They pretty much put a reverse grade on the property and the water collects on the back corner of my garage and floods the garage too.

I thought about a static yard drain but that was going to be a lot of trenching.

I decided on the pump and it works great.

Tom:

I use a 1 1/2 horsepower deep-well pump that runs on 220VAC, to PUSH up 150 feet @ about 500 gallons per hour into a 1600 gallon tank. The circuit starts on a timer late at night to get less expensive electricity.

If the tank is low at that time, the "low" float switch turns the pump on until the "high" float switch turns the pump off (tank full). From the 1600 gallon tank, I can use water as fast or slow as needed.

Sounds like overkill for your application, but figure out how "thick" you want your waterfall and how long it needs to run so that you don't end up with a disappointingly small trickle after all your effort.

definitely push. You can never count on the NPSH being right when the earth sucketh.

I would opt for: (1) the cheapest, (2)quietest, (3) 100% duty cycle (not cycled on/off), (4) highest horsepower rating motor with pump (that is consistent with flow demand) in order to keep the motor running cool, (5) easy to conceal so it will not be stolen easily system.

Perhaps you could consider a submersible pump, and run appropriate cabling to it from above, and use a PVC cable conduit (or flexible PP) with a really good boot seal at the bottom to keep interconnection dry. A pump running under water is (1) concealed, mostly, (2) very quiet, (3)probably these are some of the cheaper volume produced pumps, (4) have appropriate horsepower, 100% duty rated, and run cool.

The best bet for most water pumping applications is a wet well pushing pump for a trouble free application. An immersed pump is a foolproof set-up for instant hydraulic pressure assurance and, from what you describe, your best solution is locating the pump at the water source. For the 15ft. head and 45ft. friction loss (15+30 -calculated for your pipe diameter), plus the atmospheric lift and/or head, a relatively low HP unit should work well.Get the Worthington pump catalog (this is one of the most comprehensive design and selection guide available) and select the most efficient, small diameter impeller, low H.P. pump they have in stock and you can't go wrong. Some time ago, I designed a large water park at my location and this was the usual procedure for me. All pumps at the Park worked fine and are still running fine. A rule to remember: Whenever you can use a wet well pushing pump don't get into the hassle of pulling pumps.

Great ideas here! I may just get enthused enough to change my plans and build something unique! How about a "bucket conveyor" made with plastic buckets hung on a rope pulley system?

Here is an old technique.

......I'm starting to think you need to include a cast iron bathtub somehow.

...plastic wading pool?

Been there. Done that. Need to mark new territory.

Something like this?

Yes, that's the idea.

Go to "Homepower.com" and consider a solar panel with a 12v pump. The whole display will only be seen in the light of day anyway. Pump up hill

Get your slimy spam out of our sight.

Push it!