California Drought

NAWAPA was an interesting design study. The problem is a bit more complex than simply moving this or that from here to there. What is required is a paradigm shift in the way we view and use resources that are renewable yet limited. If we live in a desert and did not have farmable land with adequate water it would be a different issue. The fact of the matter is we do not need to grow in California. The damage already done to the ecology of that area is unbelievable and shows no signs of stopping until they all end up in the Pacific ocean. Humans can be irrationally stubborn at times, even to the point of suicide.

AFAICT: California by creating suburbia has overtaken the best, most fertile farmland, covered it over with concrete and asphalt, constructed malls, streets, freeways, lawns, houses, swimming pools, movie stars. Jed says "get away from there". They as other places are now doing in the U.S. are over-populating.

The only ways to deal with such vast over-population:(1) finally kill off agriculture completely so "Little Johnny" can have a drink, subsequently the population (which is still amazing controlled by biological limits) crashes due to starvation, of (2) a compromise is reached wherein a plan such as the NAWAPA is implemented (simply by not having to push water uphill to reach the market). You and I will not like having to pay the enormous taxpayer supported cost of the hundreds of parallel projects this takes, but it also means a rapid spin-up of a lagging economy where people will not have issues with finding work. Water options are better than running out of water.

California must be re-directed back into responsible ownership of the water, and natural resources it has access to already at the same time. Urban sprawl creates excessive stormwater runoff, pollution of water in flash flood type events, demands ever higher production to feed the population, etc. There has to be an endpoint, and a change in direction away from the suburbs. If you look elsewhere on the globe, much higher population densities exist, and the water resources tied up per capita are less. It appears Americans (including myself) need to become much better stewards of the blessings our nation can provide, rather than this constant eco-bickering.

This company: Global Seawater Extraction Technologies has a pretty darn good answer to desalination - their plant is self-sustaining, even has a slight positive electric power output. It is their precise way of combining known tech into innovative constructs that lends a successful result.

There are plenty of places in the world where more fresh water could be used to (1) feed the population and produce fiber (for clothing), (2)support sustainable industry, and (3) encourage the desperately poor to stay in that locale as conditions improve.

Civilization is a wonderful thing, but it appears someone has hosed us down with the leftist Kool-Aid to have us believe we are better off without engineered answers to providing for the needs of mankind. I seriously doubt any snails, or snail darters have enough brain capacity to be grateful for being saved or not.

a number of years ago...15+ I was working on an AC for a woman who grew up in another state. we took turns expressing our views on what was screwed up about the Golden state. she really emphasized how baffled she was at how much water was wasted here. I think she was originally from Idaho my response was, "this is the 8th largest economy on the planet, they aren't going to slow it down by rationing water".

"this is the 8th largest economy on the planet, they aren't going to slow it down by rationing water".

When nothing but dust comes out of the water spigot, then California would be in the bottom 8th economy on the planet.

That is when you hire D'Jango to find out where the water went, and take care of business with the old terrepin in charge.

The BP Alaska Pipeline can pump millions of gallons of oil hundreds of miles, over mountains, so we could do the same thing with an Interstate aqueduct system which could pump water from flooded areas to man-made mountain reservoirs and then re-distribute/direct water to drought-stricken regions. In many cases gravity would carry the water down-slope for 100's of miles without pumps. Unfortunately we blew our wad of $2-trillion+ on wars. Imagine all the people who could have obtained jobs from a necessitated project of this magnitude. Of course, we will have to assume that saving USA citizens' lives is important to our National leaders whom are calling the shots on spending our tax dollars.

Desalination would seem to be the most likely fix, except the Pacific is horribly polluted and littered with all kinds of dead marine life washing-up on the shores... and I saw no mention about the Fukushima rad pollution that Japan has been dumping in the ocean for the last 4-years. Desalination or an evaporator distillation process can remove salt. Chemical pollution and bacteria can be filtered and treated (neutralized). However, you cannot easily remove radiation from water (or Japan would be doing it rather than allowing it to spill in the Pacific).

Another possibility that I haven't read is: What is causing the California drought in the first place? I read and hear BS about the la Nina and el Nino effects... but does anyone have any thoughts regarding HAARP geoengineering? Unless you kind people haven't noticed the crap they have been spraying into the stratosphere over the last 20+ years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I the only person who sees the elephant standing in the room? (And I'm not stoned)

you're related to Kram right?

No, Fredski, I'm not related to Kram--and I have the audacity to be using my first and last name.

My profession as a process controls designer requires the consistent use of logic and having to think abstractly (outside the box). Where most people will accept the California Drought as a natural circumstance, I will examine the problem with all of the available scientific evidence, utilizing a "Fault Tree Analysis".

It's not Rocket Science... you just have pull your head outside of your box.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?" - Sherlock Holmes

Who's asphalt is it then?

I think that in the water project you should want to have the production and storage at high elevation in the Yukon and Alaska, then route the pipeline for staged elevation drop (and recovery of energy from this water), then instead of the projects costing mega billions, they should produce at least some net revenue for both countries.

Example: IF one took Denver, CO wastewater and diverted this from entering the Platte River, and pipelined this to Amarillo, TX., then on to Lubbock, TX., there is the potential to install a hydroelectric plant for each 700 foot elevation drop. The quantity of water is far in excess of the needs of all the population of NW Texas. There should an enormous windfall in use for agricultural purposes, thus relieving demand on the aquifer. Otherwise, use the water for feed to reservoirs such as Lake Meredith, and then majorly treat this to potable standards at the cities involved.

Excellent path forward thinking, James!

Autodesk (AutoCAD) has 3-D topographical maps of North America, which can have their properties modified to show elevations in different colored levels. This scheme would determine the shortest distances to pump the water up to dammed mountain valley lakes, and the longest distances it could be gravity-fed to receiving, intermediate reservoirs.

www.autodesk.com/products/autocad-map-3d/features/topographical-data-access-and-editing/gallery-view

I'm sure that there will be environmentalists that will say these pipelines are eyesores (similar to wind farms). Maybe canal systems, with elevated locks (like the Panama Canal) would be more scenic? (but far more costly than a pipeline)

The picture below is the Delta-Mendota Canal (left) the California Aquaduct (right).

All well and good until Texas gets it's next flood. Then what to do with the excess water?

Send to Arizona and drop it on Lyn's doorstep! Ka-Bluush! Then you can grow pawpaws in Tucson! Were you aware that cattle actually like living in swampy places?

Dam up the Grand Canyon all the way, and you will have a place to store it, then Kentucky can use their gold to build a safety fence around it, and Texas can buy it, lock, stock, and barrel.

OK,Let's take it from the possible to the fantastical:

The following exists only in my slightly warped mind:

Install large ducting from the southern half to the northern half of the US:

Hot air rises(Will need an extra large duct over DC).

A return duct from the North to the south.

Hot air rises,cold air falls,so every city could be conditioned to suit tenants.

Turbines inserted at the proper places could provide power for some utilities.

I figure Alaska could cool Texas and several other states.

Individual duct work metering from homes would give another source of tax revenue.

Throw in Elon Musk's ideas and you will have a fully automated system for climate

and transportation.

By the way, has anyone ever paid attention the the vapor trails left by military jets?

They are deliberately flying cloud cover grids over military bases,

and rumor has it that the vapor contains some type of infrared absorption material to

prevent infrared photography.

Wonder what is in these vapor trails?

Hmmmm!?

As for tornadoes, anchor a few thousand large corks in Oklahoma,and Texas,and

surround them with the mobile homes that were bought by the government and not

used in Louisiana (Bait for tornadoes).However,there may be rules concerning

hunting in a baited area.

When a tornado comes across the area,it will suck up a cork,which is anchored with

enough chain to allow the vortex to collapse into the cloud above.

I'm done here for now.

Call your next case.

That is way too elaborate. We already have most of that. What is needed is towering rain maker chillers that expend heat at the top and condense refrigerant, then expand it at the bottom (and add whatever extra heat is needed to keep this rollng, and produce some energy). Use the cold air at the deck where humidity may be the highest and produce condensate water for a thirsty land.

OR pile up very large cairns of round stones into pyramids and channel warm, moist air through them in the day time, and cooler air at night, the condensate produced is worth something, but the cost of piling up these cairns could be gynormous.

You forgot to add in blimp sky hooks to support the ducts. Always do proper front end loading to your Scope of Work.

The whole tower is made from a material that is lightweight based graphene type stuff, but the only problem is that it will not contain the hydrogen gas used for lifting.

Not only that, but the fireworks show will be magnificent when lightning strikes this.

DANG! I had the feeling I was forgetting something.

And I forgot the aerodynamic shape of the duct work to reduce losses and grating to

keep out polar bears and such.

Note to self:

Install counter weights on front end.

"Reality is only just a word..." Harry Chapin: Corey's Coming

Link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqZ-rkuUGKE

I'll see your Chapin and raise you a Peter Paul and Mary.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxeIHcvPmtA

I watched that and ended up on the Highwaymen Live in Las Vegas.

Just think that single drop of rain falling somewhere in California may have once been a Highwayman.

May you find a good resting place for your soul when your starship reaches the other side.

" IF one took Denver, CO wastewater and diverted this from entering the Platte River, and pipelined this to Amarillo, TX., then on to Lubbock, TX"

sounds like 'fightin' words'

Gary,

A lack of rain is causing the drought in California. That's what causes droughts.

"HAARP" geoengineering probably was/is being conducted by the same organization that wired the WTC with explosives so that when those bad men hijacked planes and flew them into the buildings, they fell down.

Earlier, they filmed the fake Moon landings on a sound stage in Florida.

Just kidding.

Gary,

if you can see the elephant in the room (Earth), it mostly does as it pleases. That's the thing about climate. It does not do what mortals want it to do.

The Alaska Pipeline pumps from a known source. Floods don't stay put.

The product pumped sells for dollars a gallon, not pennies.

"The product pumped [oil] sells for dollars a gallon, not pennies."

Tell this to the people in Detroit who don't have running water.

In 1973 gold sold for $35 an ounce, and it is 50x that amount now. We really don't need gold or oil to exist... but we do need water, which, in potable quality becomes more scarce every day.

OK, Lyn. I have digressed from the original topic because I wasn't wearing my rose tinted glasses.

----------------------------------------------------------

"The supply of fools will always outstrip the demand."

I AGREE!

bottled water sells for more in a soda machine that soda....

We don't need running water, airplanes or cars to exist, either.

But, these technological advances have helped us to overpopulate the earth.

Just as technology allows us to filter/purify water so that effluent becomes potable water, and modern farming technology allows us to grow 100 of times more food today. Advances in travel allow different cultures to mingle.

Point is we don't know that the climate of today would be significantly different if oil had never been discovered and those imaginary "chemtrails" of yours weren't figments of people's imagination.

"Point is we don't know that the climate of today would be significantly different if oil had never been discovered and those imaginary "chemtrails" of yours weren't figments of people's imagination."

lyn- I really don't want to go too far off topic on geoengineering. So, I will just post a link to the related patents:

www.geoengineeringwatch.org/links-to-geoengineering-patents/

You have made some very good points regarding whether or not our climate would be any different today if petroleum oil products had never been discovered. There is enough scientific evidence to show that droughts and ice ages have occurred before the Industrial Age, and these climate changes occur on other Planets that aren't even industrialized, let alone inhabited with carbon-based lifeforms.

Furthermore, there are celestial conditions that can cause massive changes to a Planet's ecosystem (E.g. 1> another object's gravitational pull that will cause perturbation to a Planet's poles/orbit and pulling it toward or away from the Sun; 2>our solar system passing through a dust cloud in one of the Milky Ways galactic spiral arms can cause a mini or extended ice age).

Earth changes that occurred before human records, would be categorized as a scientific hypothesis (theory) based on limited evidence. Conclusions based on expert supported, scientific, evident facts are not "Conspiracy Theories", especially when the Government's official findings avoid evidence and erroneously preclude the Basic Laws of Physics.

I realize that it is hard to accept the probability that technology is much farther ahead than the average person can imagine. We would presume that if the USA had the ability to alter the weather, we would steer damaging hurricanes away from vulnerable, populated coastlines, rather than using this technology as a weapon of mass destruction or, for creating a killer California Drought.

I also read your comment (#83):

"All we need to do is kill 50% of the world's population and the problem solves itself. I've already started a list."

I also agree with tcmtech's reply to you (#84): "Feel free to lead by example."

IMHO, there really aren't too many people--there's too many people to monitor and control. The greatest music in the World is the sound of angry mob who have awoken from their slumber.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easier for most people to believe a lie than deal with the truth. -Billie D.

Take away the irrigation that California has, and the productive land becomes barren, just like how the Europeans settlers found it.

the problem is simple, casinos Native Americans used to have to do rain dances to get the skies to open up so their corn would grow. ever since we gave them casino licenses they don't have time anymore for dancing, they're just to busy driving Brinks trucks to the bank. pull the casinos and you'll have more rain than you know what to with

Plus a lot have sever overweight issues

But then again,.... So do the rest of us.

This is a very simple problem, with a simple solution.

There are too many people on the planet.

All we need to do is kill 50% of the world's population and the problem solves itself.

I've already started a list.

Feel free to lead by example!

there was an tree hugger ecologist last week said something to the effect that he would be just happy if there were no humans on the planet......

his reasoning...... no climate change. water shortages, famine, etc.......

^{I think he's voting for Obama for a third time for a third term.}

50% of the world's population does not live in California, or even in the rest of the United States. I fail to see that as relevant to the issue. The real issue is that we are overlooking the generosity of the Earth, our mother planet. If we spent more time studying the ant, and the Tree of Life (pawpaws?), maybe we would live even longer (while still being useful, mentor types, physically capable even).

The problem is not there are too many people! The problem is there are too many ignorant people, thus we (as a whole class) are a very needy, impoverished people, in wisdom, not in material things. Not even a dog will bite the hand that feeds him.

We have failed in educating our population the basic facts of life, and basic skills. We over-emphasize some things while ignoring others (at our own peril). We are not gods, just human beings. So we need to realize the mistakes, and re-committ to the betterment of the whole society. Prison terms should be based on educating the poor ignorant bastages that made it there, unless they are pernicious offenders with no redemption (in which case life imprisonment sounds OK, or even a quick death).

You can help some of the ones that think they do not want to be helped if you place it in front of them as hurdles they must surpass to make it to the next step.

Off-topic? Maybe so, but in this way relates to water resourcing: who but God has the right to decide who gets resources and who does not. The Holy Bible teaches us that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, and there is no preference. There is no shadow of turning with God (meaning that the Light of God is a constant standard in the universe), and that the ancients knew about the turning of the Earth on its axis, in spite of the Euro-centric thought or Ptolemaic thought of the shell universe rotating about the fixed Earth.

Lyn: You will need more ammo, because with your marksmanship, they will reproduce faster than you can bump them off, if that is what is proposed, as heinous as it is. To be merciful is to be drawing near to God, to be vindictive is to steal from God. "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord of Hosts." Who do you suppose the hosts of heaven (the angels) are? Are they free of sin, as we were taught in Sunday School?

Please, Lyn, there is no hurtings to deal out, but only react with a better example than I have presented (by my own rantings). We shall all surely be judged based upon what God presented to us as a gift, and whether we were/are good stewards of it, or simple-minded wastrels. The Earth has already demonstrated how she recycles everything. We too can recycle, even water.

If I am on your list, please provide me with a large garbage bag and a bar-ditch, as I want my Christian burial.

Ah ha, I wondered when the 72 virgin factor would come up to save California from drought. (The promised prize for some population reduction techniques). Of course the other team 500 years ago were selling indulgences until Luther stepped in to question the rules of the Catholic Church of Rome .... and this was a contributing factor that started migration to North America ... and hence the drought. Simple really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lutheranism

So distilling it down, too much Californication and historical Taxifornia factors may have caused the current extra dry situation. Now, if someone can get those high speed rails realigned to Las Vegas or a casino on Indian territory, and I get the chance to put the lot on Red three, then I am sure that it can all be solved.

not 72 virgins....it's 72 virginians (or in one translation it comes out grapes). Wow that reply was all over the board, but the last paragraph was on tack.

Just had a marathon watch of the Borgias (all 3 seasons of Pope Alexander 6th) that looked at the life of the 'first crime family' http://www.sho.com/sho/the-borgias/home so that is my excuse for some of the oblique references.

In looking back, there have been multiple different views on the California Drought in this CR4 discussion. And then in my local Australian supermarket, the shelves are filled with Californian oranges and grapes (not in a bottle). 'Water exporting'?

Don, that is hilarious! Australia has California oranges and grapes but our stores here have Oranges from Argentina and China and grapes from Chile and Columbia. And this is actually economically viable? Isn't South America and China closer to Australia than North America? Isn't California closer to Wisconsin than China and South America?

Why do I get the feeling we are being hosed?

IF you ask the guys doing the hosing, they will say: "nah".

A lot of the market depends on the price wars, the season of what crop is coming off where, and the state of storage of said crops. It is all controlled in the Chicago Futures Market, I think.

First, James, I have to admit you really surprised me. This is the last place I would have expected a Theist rant. Nice one.

Now, one of the joys in my previous life and actually my current one as well is dealing with people who deny reality. Whether it not wanting to believe a spouse is unfaithful or blaming someone for dying, etc. I found myself constantly working around fallacies and misconceptions that a person was trying to make real or with a person trying to deny reality altogether.

Always loved the MythBusters, "I reject your reality and substitute my own".

Now I work with plant managers who do not understand that if this part breaks every 50 to 60 months, then we plan a shut down at 45 and replace it instead of running until it breaks, ruin a production run and delay a customers order. I would hate to tell you how many times I have had to take someone's hand and walk them repeatedly through the process to get them to see the light. It never ceases to amaze me the power of the human mind to believe its own version of reality over what is right in front of their face.

California is a prime example of what happens when you put a whole bunch of these folks in one place.

Well said. I am certainly the one who should be literally or figuratively throwing stones at Lyn, or anyone else in here. I do suppose we all rightfully have a feather trimming coming to us once in a while. I certainly do miss my righteous mother and father.

I'm glad to see so many replies; some serious and some not so. One reply that brought up another issue was the availability of California oranges in Australia and Chilean grapes in the U.S. The answer for this is: other countries will pay more for our produce. This has been the terrible plight of the blue fin tuna. Japan pays top dollar for our tuna to the point where we can not afford to eat tuna at home. U.S. fishermen can make a killing on their tuna catch. U.S. processors cannot afford the price that Japan is willing to pay. This has been true for many of our commodities. Large corporate conglomerates in this country choose to make large profits than to provide those resources to the people at reasonable prices. Many years ago, I can remember being able to buy blue fin tuna, swordfish, salmon and even lobsters at prices that I could afford. Today, I cannot afford it. I cannot even find it in markets any longer Now I'm left with catfish (once considered a trash fish) and Asian grown fish, none of which can compare with what was once our great fishing heritage.

On another note, people were attracted to California because it promised a good life. That was what attracted me to California in the first place. I lived there for close to 30 years, made a good living, but upon retiring, realized the good life would not sustain me and my family into retirement. I moved to Mississippi, a state that is listed at the bottom of almost any statistic the fed can come up with; but it is a state that I can afford to live in (I've gotten used to catfish). I's a good environment for kids to grow up in. We live in a rural environment that permits a lot of non-governmental freedom. Compared to high population urban areas, we have less crime, less interference and quite good race relations. Somehow, I believe I've made the best decision moving here. No one asked to be born, yet here we are. We do what we have to do to survive and pursue happiness. I thank God that He chose to put me here in the good old USA. Had He wanted me to be a poor, miserable peasant, He would have put me in a 3rd world country, but He put me here, so that is my destiny that I have to live with; thank you Lord.