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Why Isn't This Better Known Info?

12/12/2015 10:03 AM
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#1

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 10:20 AM

Because only an idiot would claim that 10 years worth of data means anything at all when it comes to the climate! That's why.

This is just as ignorant as the statement by Ted Cruz (the Canadian born imbecile who admits to know nothing about science, but continues to spout his brand of climate propaganda) who claims that 18 years worth of "data" show that the earth isn't getting any warmer.

When Trump gets elected, Hell will freeze over and all our troubles will just be beginning.

I'm not sure how you can be hooked by this crap.

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#36
In reply to #1

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 1:19 PM

Wait a minute! What are Al Gore's Scientific credentials? Some research of his records will show that "the transcripts reveal Mr. Gore's post secondary performance was rather dismal, particularly in the Field of Science. He received a " D " in Natural Sciences at Harvard". Yet he somehow graduated and became a Noble Peace Prize winner….Amazing that we have made it this far, as a Race...

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 1:30 PM

I'll take Al Gore's "scientific credentials" any day of the week over believing that Ted Cruz is in any way even remotely qualified to be "Chairman" of the United States Senate Commerce Subcommittee on Space, Science and Competitiveness. Yes, science! Isn't that a crock.

He's such a moron that he proves his ignorance every time he speaks, especially when he says that there is no such thing as climate change.

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#89
In reply to #38

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 9:38 PM

I'd call it six of one and half-dozen of the other.

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#90
In reply to #89

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 9:44 PM

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#123
In reply to #38

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 12:04 AM

That is not a Scientific position, it is a House Seat position -Please differentiate.. Why does Gore, with NO credentials get all of his accolades? Political bias, and funding from the Greens and Liberals--Who is receiving all the Grant monies ? The Solyndras, the Tesla funding, the Solar roof top credits, Tonopah? etc? Hang on to Gore, and maybe he will slough off a few miilion of his ill gotten gains , through the Carbon Credit trading, hedge funds , and Daddy's money, to help fund your retirement..

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#2

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 10:21 AM

Maybe it has something to do with this organizations views?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heartland_Institute

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#3
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 10:28 AM

Such as this tidbit from Wiki:"In the 1990s, the Heartland Institute worked with the tobacco company Philip Morris to question or deny the health risks of secondhand smoke and to lobby against smoking bans.[2] More recently, the Heartland Institute is the primary American supporter of climate change denial."

Like I'm going to believe any group who "lobby against smoking bans. Really??????

Sounds like a very smart group of paid shills. I wonder who pays their salaries?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 10:33 AM

Exactly!

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#6
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 11:20 AM

In this relatively short, grossly biased hit piece the word "alarmist" was repeatedly used to describe the computer models and people who presented views opposite those of the paid literary assassin who wrote this trash.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 11:23 AM

Lyn, That was the first thing I noticed, and what caused me to do some research into this guy.

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#26
In reply to #3

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 12:23 AM

Pick a period when climate DIDN'T change!

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#59
In reply to #3

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 10:51 AM

GA!

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#5

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 10:35 AM

Like the ice core data, it doesn't fit the agenda.

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#8

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 11:58 AM

I'm so sick of reading both sides of the Global Warming argument. For every believer there is a disbeliever, all armed with back-up data, so it's got to the point where there is no point in reading it. As far as I'm concerned the only "proof" one way or the other, will be to see what happens. Meanwhile life goes on.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 12:28 PM

Age of the Earth=4.5 billion years

Age of humans=50,000 years

Age of industrialization=250 years

Recorded weather history=150 years

As you say. Each side can "prove" to their ultimate satisfaction whichever position they like.

Kinda like politics.

Here's what I know for a fact. In 1960 the air was never hazy where I grew up.

Now, the air is never clear where I grew up and millions of people/children suffer from COPD. That's not my imagination I'm breathing that makes me wheeze.

Mankind has done SOMETHING to cause this. Has that contributed to global warming?

We'll have to wait and see. Climate doesn't change over night.

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#39
In reply to #9

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 1:44 PM

That is called POLUTION.. Much easier handled that changing the patterns of an entire planet. What has changed for yoou, in regards to "climate change", that has not happended before in the prior 50 years?

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 2:21 PM

That is called POLLUTION "Much easier handled than changing the patterns of an entire planet" [spelling edited]

The patterns of the entire planet are why we have pollution.

I have never said that the earth does not experience thermal cycles.

50 years is like one grain of sand in the deserts of the world in comparison to geologic history.

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#41
In reply to #9

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 3:23 PM

Virtually ever city on the planet has air pollution issues. Most major ones are due to temperature inversions; maybe we should be regulating the temperatures.

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 3:27 PM

I grew up in rural Arkansas, where there were no city within 8 miles. The population was 30,000.

Air inversions were/are unheard of in that area, still.

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#47
In reply to #41

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 10:10 PM

So you suggest to regulate the temperature because of pollution?

Pollution still comes from ahhhh: pollution. Its sticks around due to certain weather patterns but it is not the root cause!

With logic applied to it, pollution should be reduces well lets say by reducing pollution.

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#54
In reply to #47

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 2:01 AM

Must have been to logical hence a OT. Yeah! I would like to see OT count on my profile so I can keep track of my social non-compliance! But I guess we do not discriminate here!

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#58
In reply to #54

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 8:54 AM

I have marked this comment OT, to help you with your count.

I'd be happy to mark the rest of your comments, as well, if you'd like.

Seems appropriate to me.

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#72
In reply to #58

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 8:19 PM

Honestly if you support the notion that we have to regulate the temperature to tackle pollution go ahead.

Want to see someone changing the outside temperature at will for an entire city.

Best is to cool it down but we could just keep it at cosy room temperature of 22 deg C.

This for sure will get rid of all the pollution.

Could not stop laughing this morning!

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#73
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 9:24 PM

I trust it was a blissful laugh.

I support the notion that we ALL need to tackle pollution.

I'm just not sure where you got the notion that I "Want to see someone changing the outside temperature at will for an entire city."

Frankly, I'm not sure where you get lots of your notions.

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 2:10 AM

Well must have been a while since you learned how to read.

I can spell it out for you but I am not very good at it:

1. I replied to the point from Aqua Doc #41

2. He clearly says: maybe we should be regulating the temperatures

3. I responded and said that this is not the way to tackle pollution. Now why you chipped in I have no idea. Maybe you thought I responded to you. But there you have to hold you head straight when reading.

.

Hope this explains it because I still don't understand why we are having this conversation while aqua doc is out there and has a real blissful laugh.

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#75
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 8:10 AM

It is unclear why you have insulted me for responding to a post IN WHICH I WAS CLEARLY RESPONDING TO SOMEONE ELSE!!!!!!In reply to #9

Namely, Aqua Doc.

I wasn't aware that there was a prohibition against responding to a specific post, even though that post was a response to another member. I'll try to remember that in your case.

I'm going to follow the advice of Mark Twain, again and stop arguing with you, lest I be taken for the fool, which is clearly not the case here.

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#91
In reply to #75

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 9:56 PM

Gosh, you really did not hold your head straight when reading. I replied to Aqua Doc. Point over!

Nothing to do with you. No insult unless you are insulted by my question to Aqua Doc. But then it is your problem!

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#60
In reply to #9

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 10:53 AM

Now, the air is never clear where I grew up

Ask the same question to people who grew up in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia in the 1960's. Bet they don't agree with you.

I remember my first drive into Philly in July, 1969. Way out about Phoenixville, I entered the yellow cloud. It was like a wall. My eyes burned until I got back out of Philly. We just don't see that anymore.

Want clear air - come up to the shores of Lake Erie when a cold front has passed through and a big high has settled in over New England. We still have days with no clouds and gross radiational heating at night up here. I've seen frost in June.

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#68
In reply to #60

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 6:38 PM

People who are born 90% blind must think that the ability to see with 50% clarity is a miracle, like the air in Pittsburgh.

Your visit to Philly in July, 1969, is like my remembrance of my first trip to LA in 1960.

LA residents probably love their "clean" air too.

The air in central Arkansas is much dirtier today than in 1960, trust me.

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#150
In reply to #60

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/19/2015 5:56 PM

Good post: I'm from Youngstown, OH. The east side was bad from the teens to the 70's.

The Mahoning River had rising steam in the summer.

As for pollution, you should see the Caribbean during off season.

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#81
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 12:13 PM

It's a new religion, designed to bring the Republic to its knees. Good luck surviving in any way, in the cold, in the dark, without water, and without food, because the

EPA has banned everything you need to exist.

Smoking only affects those who inhale it? How come mankind exists at all when most of our history, we have been crouched near a very smoky fire, roasting meat of all sorts, some of which was most likely old carrion, wearing filthy animal furs not properly cured, and drinking from the stream where they just killed a Mammoth and gutted it not fifteen minutes ago. I think humans will outlast our present ills, we just need to educate people more about the evils of mass procreation out of season. Only those fit mentally and/or physically to make it in this world should reproduce. Less folks are needed if all they will ever do is sap on the resources of others.

Sounds sort of Bah-Humbug, but maybe it is at least partially true. Maybe we do need more compassionate conservatism, where the facile in society rise up and actually make the world a better place not just for themselves, but for the masses. The masses still need to get up off their collectivism and go to freaking work!

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#120
In reply to #9

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/17/2015 10:51 PM

Not to dispute your experiences, but air is much clearer where I grew up (NYC) in 50's and 60's.

Some years were colder, others hotter, but little significant change overall.

Didn't have A/C until 70's, and the only room units.

No house I ever lived in was without heat, though.

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#122
In reply to #120

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/17/2015 11:02 PM

You must surely be responding to someone else.

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 1:45 PM

Yep similar feelings here as well.

As far as climate change goes I find it about as serious as the Ozone hole that we are not supposed to know about disappearing for 6 - 8+ months a year every year almost like it's a seasonal effect similar to how summers are always hotter than the year average temp and winters are cooler than the average year round temp.

Southern hemisphere O3 cycles

And what about the northern hemisphere of the planet that seems to go through a seasonal over abundance of ozone at almost the exact same time the southern hemisphere drops its levels.

Northern Hemisphere O3 cycles

Methinks the total global ozone volume is not changing much. It's just migrating from one half the planet to the other as the seasons change.

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#14
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 2:11 PM

At least we only have to deal with the "ozone problem" whenever a refrigerant patent expires. We will be paying for carbon finance half-way though the next ice age.

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#61
In reply to #11

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 10:59 AM

GA! I am relatively sure you are on to something.

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#97
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 11:06 AM

That is pretty interesting.

One of my research mentors while I was University of Utah was actually in graduate school at Cambridge working with Rowland and Molena when they published on atmospheric reactions of chlorine containing species that undergo a cyclic catalytic reaction with ozone, hence depletion. This was based upon computer calculations, known reaction rates, and the recycling of the chlorine species by a series of known reactions where ozone is consumed. I suppose the model may not have been sufficient to compensate for physical mechanisms that would remove these chlorine containing species such as ClO• ,Cl• , ClO2 in the upper atmosphere, all of which would arise from reaction of ozone first with certain chlorofluorocarbons (refrigerants) that would have been carried aloft on updrafts, diffusion, etc.

One problem seems to have been finding a suitable scavenger molecule that would react with these, and allow them to be swept back down, then rained out as HCl, etc. The model also did not accurately predict the rates of production of new ozone in the upper atmosphere, as I recall, but the models do get very complicated when they include all the known chemical moieties present, and attempt to include all known reactions with suitable kinetics. Who knows how it runs on a newer bigger, better computer, with more accurate data on some of the reactions that were not included in model of the day?

At the time, based on the available data and research, it appeared to be serious problem. I still do not like being outdoors without shades and a good hat.

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#17
In reply to #8

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 5:27 PM

With the Paris accord now done and dusted, the climate change advocates can't lose this argument...

If the earth's average temperature now does not increase by the claimed amount that it would if we did nothing, they will claim it is because of their actions.

If their actions actually achieve nothing, and the earth's average temperature still doesn't increase - as is the prediction of the deniers - then the advocates will still claim that their actions were successful.

If the earth's average temperature does increase, the advocates will claim it is because we didn't do enough.

Unfortunately there is no accurate method to prove who is/was right, and one decent volcanic eruption will throw all calculations and predictions out with the garbage

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 5:44 PM

I just hope Yellowstone waits until I'm dead to blow again.

Yellowstone Caldera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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#27
In reply to #20

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 12:34 AM

Agree with you on that one.

Add the Cascadia Fault, whatever fault caused the New Madrid earthquake. and a couple of other geologic time bombs.

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#207
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/10/2016 4:30 AM

It depends upon where you live. America is drifting over Jellystone, so in however many years the Jellystone hot spot may well be under Etherville. There's a bright side to everything.

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#208
In reply to #207

Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/11/2016 12:03 PM

More like a hot side to everything.

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#209
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/12/2016 5:02 PM

Given the current weather, I'd not be unhappy if Yellowstone got nearer a bit quicker.

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#210
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/13/2016 11:07 AM

Trust me, neither of us, or anyone else on here wants to be within 2000 miles of Yellowstone when the caldera erupts, and it will eventually. The devastation from it could set back civilization a few thousand years is all.

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#211
In reply to #210

Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/13/2016 11:24 AM

You have that right. A few years ago there was a Discovery Channel movie made by the BBC (not a documentary, but sticking close to the science) about what might happen if Yellowstone erupted. It's called Supervolcano.

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#212
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/13/2016 12:58 PM

Agreed. At that time, everything we worry about these days will be completely and totally irrelevant. It would be as though the Luftwaffe was resurrected x100, and was everywhere raining down hell on us all.

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#213
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

01/13/2016 4:04 PM

The big question is 'when'. Such things are notoriously hard/impossible to predict. My general reading on related matter is that Yellowstone is not considered as 'the big one' that could wipe us all out. The area is, in relative terms, fairly dormant (as awesome as it looks). For sure, we would be gonnas if it blew next week, but other areas of the world have more active zones that could at the least cause global mayhem. I'd bet money that Yellowstone will not end civilization, but it would be a bit hard for the winnner to colllect.

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#21
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 5:59 PM

Well one thing is for sure, air pollution will decrease....and health will improve....

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#95
In reply to #17

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 9:43 AM

GA. Very good points, all of them. But one has to remember that all computer models are just that, models. I am not one that can say the model(s) are good or bad, but the old adage goes, "garbage in,,, garbage out". Data manipulation is common, and often used to support one's own opinion. All we can do is wait and see what happens.

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#34
In reply to #8

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 10:58 AM

Actually, for every disbeliever, there are over 4 believers, if you count the public. If you just poll scientists, (meteorologists, NOAA, oceanographers, NA of Physics, NA of Geology, US NA of Sciences, all the hack organizations that anyone can join) there are about 9.5 believers for every disbeliever. It is a tough call, I appreciate how complicated it is to make sense of those statistics. The margins a razor thin, and you have to be careful.

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#48
In reply to #34

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 10:20 PM

This is just a fine religious statistic. Counting believers is part of the population census.

The believe starts where the knowledge ends.

And I believe in money if I'd work in a bank.

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#62
In reply to #34

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 11:21 AM

I am very certain that every citizen in the world has in now way been polled for their opinion so your numbers are very suspect of being skewed and inaccurate.

The numbers being reported display whatever the author of the stated opinion wants them to.

When was the last time anyone called or emailed you or anyone in this forum for an opinion?

We really need to stop arguing about what is the root-cause of our current increasing temperature and/or cooling trends. (climate change)

What we should be focusing on is eliminating pollution as the effects on human health is the most pressing we have.

It really will not matter if the earth's temperature in 300 years rises a few degrees if the world population is decimated/poisoned by pollution of our air, land, and water.

Let's stop the pollution then see if it affects climate change.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 11:43 AM

I am in 100% agreement with you about the decision to abandon the clean air and water mantra in favor of climate change. It was a disastrous mistake, in that it obfusicated the issue. To get clean air and clean water, you will not be burning coal or petroleum. We will have to find alternatives. We will be protecting the environment, as the most cost effective water recycling option. Would half of the posters here still be repulsed by the idea of limiting thier rights? Probably, but people understand the need for clean air and water. Climate change is the fodder that keeps us from doing much enough about it, although it is true that it may be the straw that breaks our collective human back.

Why would I want to poll every citizen in the world and ask them about climate change. I guess I should also ask them what they think about fishing quota's? They are not qualified. I know what they think about clean air and water. They want it, and want to participate in finding solutions.

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#65
In reply to #63

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 2:00 PM

"I know what they think about clean air and water. They want it, and want to participate in finding solutions."

I really wish this was/is true.

Unfortunately there are many that believe the world is so large that nothing we do as humans can significantly impact it.

We only need visit or research the inherent threat to all animal and plant life as evidenced in many of the old abandoned lead, silver, gold, copper, iron, and other mine sites throughout the world.

Given that the regulations and methods were archaic when those mines were in production none the less these superfund sites clearly establish that we as humans can most certainly create changes to our environment that are catastrophic in nature and most certainly hazardous as well as lethal to the entire world.

I disagree in that we cannot burn coal or petroleum products without polluting the environment just as I disagree that we cannot mine the resources we need to sustain humankind.

We as humans and therefore the most intelligent animals in this world are certainly capable of identification and mitigation of any method, process, or behavior that is a threat to our world and it's inhabitants.

However, to be successful we must be willing to accept the added cost(s) associated with developing and applying the required technology to mitigate and negate environmental threats.

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 6:11 PM

I was in the securities and banking industry for most of the 90's. It used to drive me crazy that when some legislators made suggestions about how to cut the deficit (the economy was pretty rocking then) and the response was often that it was not even worth doing, it would have so little impact on the issue.

Extracting minerals and combusting them releases pollutants and greenhouse gases faster than we can mitigate them. We will solve the problem eventually, but don't you think reducing the cause of the problem is a good start? Can't really get a cow to stop farting, or a log to quit decomposing, but we could stop burning coal in 30 years, starting today, by burning less than yesterday. We could build a better electrical grid which would speed the mothballing of aging coal burning plants. We could build more electric vehicles, to store more alternative power and displace more gasoline. It is not rocket science. Oh wait, it actually is. Wish we could get some rocket scientist types to work on it.

"However, to be successful we must be willing to accept the added cost(s) associated with developing and applying the required technology to mitigate and negate environmental threats. "

Are you arguing that you are ready, or that it is not worth doing because it won't solve the entire problem today.

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 7:19 PM

the emperor has no clothes the "problem" has failed completely to materialize and match the predictions of Al Gore and the computer models he quoted over and over. satellites monitor exactly how much heat escapes to space daily already. if you refuse to believe that, that's your choice. the run away heating claims that scare you are BS

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 7:53 PM

What planet do you live on. Al Gores predictions are about as reliable and relevant as yours, or mine. Google this.

Record temperatures in 2015

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#99
In reply to #70

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 11:13 AM

Anecdotal, not global data.

The satellites do not lie, do not have a dog in the fight, and will not rake in obscene amounts of money from speaking engagements.

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#101
In reply to #70

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 11:37 AM

just a note: the phrase "highest temp on record" can really mislead. until recently all these record number were good old mercury. but in the last several years sophisticated measuring instruments that detect down to hundredths of a degree have been used to sniff out new "records". so if the temp in Chicago in 1896 was 87 one day but now on the same day in 2015 is 87.1 the Liberal media plasters... "HIGHEST TEMP ON RECORD!!!

just keep an eye on the sat data, it doesn't lie

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#71
In reply to #69

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/14/2015 8:06 PM

"the run away heating claims are BS"

How can you possibly say that? Can you see 100 years into the future?

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#77
In reply to #69

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 9:21 AM

Where is Lady Godiva when we need her the most to distract the questioners?

I would much rather see her than Lord Farquat.

I am way more worried about the immediate effects of smog and chemical contamination of our water supplies on our health than the cooling and warming cycles of mother earth that we may or may not be exerting a very limited influence on.

I am also very concerned with the fact that we have way too many "experts" in the scientific community that are much more concerned about their budget and being "politically correct" instead of executing their skillsets at a professional level.

They have a responsibility to provide the input and guidance so desperately needed by our leaders in order to make intelligent, informed, and wise decisions.

Fracking concerns is a good example.

If indeed the groundwater is suspect of being contaminated it would seem to me that pilot test wells could be drilled around the site to gather water samples and monitor water quality instead of just overreacting and making leading statements that could be false.

I think I expect too much from my fellow human beings.

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#78
In reply to #77

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 9:23 AM

Science just isn't what it used to be and should still be

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#80
In reply to #78

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 11:23 AM

Neither is politics nor the news.

I remember when politicians of both parties discussed their differences and compromised. We didn't have fiscal cliffs every six months (which is just a thinly disguised way to get more bribes in a single year) and worthwhile work was done by Congress, instead of being a group of grossly overpaid incompetents constantly campaigning.

I remember when the office and the President of the United States were respected, not derided and called unsavory names.

I can remember when the news was UNBIASED and truthful.

Can you?

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#88
In reply to #78

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 5:24 PM

Let me say this about that. I DID NOT INHALE AND I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN? Although my cigars leave a funny aftertaste in my mouth.

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#147
In reply to #88

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 4:53 PM

I could go for a Churchill, got one?

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#76
In reply to #67

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 9:06 AM

I have "been ready" for years.

We should have developed solar and wind generation many years ago as by now the system quality and reliability would far exceed our current systems and the cost would be minimized.

It is most certainly worth doing and we should be pursuing mitigation of all environmental issues but the process needs to be phased in over a period of time that allows substantial progress without bankrupting any companies or countries.

My biggest fear is the fact that pretty much all of the third-world and developing countries will in no way willingly comply with any of the needed controls and regulations which will definitely negate anything we in the USA do in this arena.

I personally feel that much of the global warming agenda is simply scare tactics designed to strike fear in the general population's mind in an effort to accomplish the environmental changes needing to be invoked.

Why you ask? Simply because there are way too many differing opinions from too many different so-called experts and there is way too much deceit being carried on instead of simply stating the facts and providing tangible proof. Words such as; "may", "might", "could", "should", "maybe" are disclaimers used to alleviate the liability of the person or persons issuing a statement/report.

Regardless of whether the earth's temperature rises or falls or "normalizes" it does not enforce or take away from the fact that we need to get control of those processes that are polluting our environment so that our impact to mother earth as humans is minimized.

Another fact that distresses me is when we pass some "knee jerk" legislation under the guise of decreasing pollution yet has the effect of actually increasing pollution.

Case & point; Refrigerants - R410, R134, and other so called environmentally friendly products actually increase HVAC compressor head pressure resulting in higher electrical consumption for the same amount of cooling capacity. This causes increased electrical consumption and demand which in turn increases the pollution being created by generation facilities.

How about the fact that although a four cylinder engine operating on flat ground and in the city gets decent mileage yet that same vehicle operated in mountainous regions and/or under load actually gets far worse mileage than a V-6 or V-8?

We know that all vehicles produce maximum pollutants when idling yet we perform our environmental testing under those exact conditions instead of testing the vehicle when it is at/under normal road operating conditions.

We installed pollution controls on our vehicles early on that somewhat reduced some pollutants yet decreased engine performance and gas mileage.

Today's automotive pollution control systems are way more effective because we have had enough time to improve/perfect them.

I could go on but I am sure you get the point.

What ever changes we make need to be effective, economical, and reliable instead of just jumping into the black abyss of ignorant overreaction and suffering from our mistakes.

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#82
In reply to #76

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 1:36 PM

Good analysis ..I read an article from a retired Cal Trans (California Transportation agency), when the car pool lanes were being put in, and the electric cars and the hybrids were given special stickers to use them, even with one occupant…He mentioned that the original concept was to reduce pollution, but in effect, they were relegating the MOST polution emmiting vehicles , large diesel trucks, into low mph lanes where they did the most damage. He felt that the express lanes, with few stops, should be used by the heavier polluting trucks, so as not to be idling in traffic jams. He also felt that a lot of the money being spent on theser lanes were actually perks for the wealthy , who could afford such cars.

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#84
In reply to #82

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 4:38 PM

I am glad that worker is retired, but that is an absurd analysis with no logic whatsoever. WTF is happenning to you geezers. That is Donald Trumpian in it's stupidity.

"but in effect, they were relegating the MOST polution emmiting vehicles , large diesel trucks, into low mph lanes where they did the most damage. He felt that the express lanes, with few stops, should be used by the heavier polluting trucks, so as not to be idling in traffic jams. tim"

They added lanes with better flow and made it available to those who bought more efficient cars in order to take advantage of the decreased commute time. Net effect was to incentivize efficiency, not to incentivize truckers to go faster. A trucker going faster has lower efficiency. A trucker in a trafic jam got to that jam whether he was going fast or slow. That sucks for everyone, but opening lanes to high efficiency vehicles has nothing to do with the trafic jam.

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#85
In reply to #82

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 4:48 PM

I'm trying to imagine what that would look like if the author of that article got his way. Carpool lanes would be occupied by cars with two or more people and all the 18 wheelers.

First, all the potholes would be concentrated in the carpool lane:

http://truecostblog.com/2009/06/02/the-hidden-trucking-industry-subsidy/

"Road damage rises with the fourth power of weight, and this means that a 40,000 pound truck does roughly 10,000 times more damage to roadways than the average car [1]!"

Second, trucks are limited to 55 mph. Would they be allowed to go faster in the carpool lanes?

Third, what voters would tolerate "carpool" lanes filled with 18 wheelers?

Fourth, is that author saying that encouraging hybrid and electric vehicles does not reduce pollution because the pollution it reduces is caused by wealthy people?

Finally, is he saying that 9.3 percent of Californians are wealthy?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-13/toyota-prius-keeps-top-california-sales-rank-as-tesla-moves-up

"Sales of hybrids, plug-in autos and battery cars in the most populous U.S. state are disproportionately higher than the U.S. average owing to emissions rules that are among the world's toughest. Autos powered partially or wholly by electricity accounted for 9.3 percent of California sales last year [2013], according to the report."

[Sorry, I couldn't find the figures for 2014, though I know it went down some.]

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#87
In reply to #85

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 5:09 PM

"I'm trying to imagine what that would look like"

Just go to the I-285 at I-85 interchange in Atlanta and you can see it. Not pretty.

I'd never considered using car pool lanes for truckers. Hey, most of them have a co-driver now days so, why not? I'm sure there are many reasons why not.

All those people in the HOV/carpool lanes would be driving something. Why not give them an incentive. I can drive my V-8 gas truck in the HOV lanes any time I want, if I have a buddy along. Same deal, only one of us is burning gas.

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#106
In reply to #85

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/17/2015 12:01 AM

No..What was advocated was a system of two high speed lanes to get the heavy diesel trucks off to the side, out of major traffic lanes (passeneger lanes), and be able to move at their own speed, without stopping and being able move without the problems of commuter traffic. You would not need Diamond / car pool lanes if this was in effect.. This is already being done on the 5 Fwy in Los Angeles, at the 14 / 5 junction…If you do not live in Los Angeles, with the 2nd largest US shiping port, and numerous other high capacity shipping hubs, rail and truck, than you have no idea of the mishmash of freeway traffic and delays---From the 710 , from Long Beach/ LA Harbor, to the Interstate 5 , that runs north and south from San Diego to Oregon, or the 15 to Barstow, and on to Vegas. Cars have to share lanes with huge amounts of large trucks carrying the vital supplies of Interstate commerce. The net effects of the car pool lanes are negligible--Often they are empty, while the three lanes next to them are clogged. I know not where you posters live, but walk a mile in our shoes and see what we see...

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#83
In reply to #76

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 2:27 PM

You have overburdened my attention span with a sensible well written post.

Please break these synopses into even smaller tidbits for us older slower readers who occasionally nod off while reading.

GA.

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#10

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 1:33 PM

I accept the notion that mankind's generation of CO2 may contribute a small amount to global warming.

What I don't accept is that we need a massive increase of government control of our lives or of the economy. Especially considering that our leaders acknowledge that this increased control won't do any good anyway:

Kerry admits US CO2 cuts won't help

By far the two greatest influences on the climate are the Sun and the Earth itself.

When humans are capable of changing the Earth from this:

to this:

Then, I'll start believing we need to do something.

And I'll start believing we need to do something when our leaders start practicing what they preach.

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#86
In reply to #10

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/15/2015 4:58 PM

Kerry said in the clip that if all the industrial countries in the world cut their emissions to zero, it wouldn't be enough, not that it wouldn't help, regardless of how the clip is labeled. He's right. The developing nations have to cut emissions too. But guess what? If the industrial nations don't cut emissions, the developing nations sure won't want to. We have to lead. In other words, as you say, we have to practice what we preach.

I have no idea why we have to be able to break the continents apart in order to do something about all the coal and oil we burn. Can you explain that a little more?

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#93
In reply to #86

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 2:39 AM

I have no idea why we have to break with oil and coal. Can you explain that a bit more?

For example where do you think the tyres will be coming from for your electric vehicles?

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 4:15 AM

Where else besides the stone quarry? Got some nice lathes to work with, but damn it, no power to run all them at the same time

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#104
In reply to #94

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 9:08 PM

Mr. Flintstone a new tyre is hewn in about 3 weeks. 2 weeks if you take the octagonal shape!

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#98
In reply to #93

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 11:09 AM

We need to agressively develop alternatives to mining and combusting petro and minerals that produce vast quanties of environmental damage. We can't and won't stop all of that today, or next year, or even in the next 50 years. That is not the point. The planet is very robust and resilient, but we are over burdening it with pollutants. There are so many applications that could be replaced with far cleaner energy sources, particularly by using solar/wind/wave/nuclear electricity to displace coal or oil energy medium. Of course we will need high density energy to do a lot of things, like air transportaion, many materials, etc. It is not an all or nothing scenario. But, really, don't you think that the future of our planet is bleak unless we commit resources now? I can even debate goals and timelines, but denial of the critical importance of this issue is a little hard to stomach. For many people, burning gasoline to commute to work is an example of a poor use. Driving cross country, you need gas or diesel. Both of those could be easily 50% bio if we wanted them too, to the benefit of the American farmer and American technolgy/manufacturing. Would it be more expensive than gas? Yes. That is the price. Burning coal to make electricity is another option, and one in which we are making some progress in this country. Of course, we are exporting coal to China, where they burn with even more damage than here. The disdain shown on this forum to the idea of working with any country to solve these issues doesn't give me much hope. The 'me' generation! I think a better name is the FY generation.

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#103
In reply to #98

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 9:05 PM

You scare me!

Really statements like: unless we commit resources now?

Where do you think these resources are coming from? We dig up more to have resources so we do not need resources anymore? What dreamland are you in?

I am not supporting pollution. Where we can we need to make sure we minimise the impact. But we will not be able to shut down anything for a long time without an even greater impact on society.

50% bio ??? What are you going to eat? Land use for farming is one of the most destructive things we are doing on this planet. Support it and you destroy more than you save.

Nuclear??? Really? No waste? Easy to handle, no long term impact if it goes wrong? I agree a nuclear plant that blows up will make sure nature is at its own and can thrive without humans around. Is this what we want?

Burning coal to have electricity to drive cars? Now you really get in your own way.

I guess I stop here. There is no point arguing with a fool! (sorry very, blunt but this is how I see it).

The future of this planet is not bleek. Our future is what is at risk.

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#105
In reply to #103

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/16/2015 10:17 PM

you are the fool. The resources come from the capital markets. Incentives, subsidies, regulations, these are all terms commonly used to direct capital for the benefit of society and to reward the owners of that capital. Occassionally, our government is responsible for great things, like interstates, NASA, Rural electrification. For the last 30 years, we have lacked leadership. No one industry has received more than oil. That was fine then. It is time for change.

I was pointing out that burning coal to make electricity is foolish. I should have been more descriptive, I would use pictures if I thought that would help you. No one is suggesting we have to shut anything down. That was the point of my post. Nor is status quo sufficient to initiate change. Agressive change is what's needed.

You are as ignorant of farming practice and policy as most other topics you comment on. There are plenty of opportunities to build farms that produce fuel crops that actually mitigate as well as provide fuel. We actually pay farmers not to grow things.

Many of us think that nuclear generation should continue to be developed. I have not heard of any nuclear that has no waste, so I am not aware of what you are referring to. Even solar, wind, hydro has environmental and material cost and impact.

The point of yours seems to be that everything is fine. What about your future do you sense is at risk?

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#121
In reply to #105

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/17/2015 11:00 PM

... I was pointing out that burning coal to make electricity is foolish. ...
Where????
you talking of progress burning coal:
...Burning coal to make electricity is another option, and one in which we are making some progress in this country....
You have some contradiction in your statements that makes it impossible to continue the discussion.
Have a Merry Christmas!

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#125
In reply to #121

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 2:12 AM

Oh I guess I was off topic!

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#126
In reply to #125

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 2:51 AM

Just added a vote to bump you back up - I can't stand petulance. Your previous post stands on merit. This comment OT'd by me.

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#129
In reply to #126

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 7:22 AM

Ha! An anonymos coward! What you can stand or not does not concern me!

Display of behaviour that one dislikes of others is a know phenomenon for the human psyche.

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#130
In reply to #121

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 8:08 AM

we have refuced coal use in this country for each of the last 6 years, that is progress.

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#134
In reply to #130

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 10:16 AM

Do you really think that is progress? Or can progress have a completely different face, such as completely stopping the dumping of ash ponds by better ash management practices, improved mercury removal from stacks, improved removal of radioactive elements (yes, Mildred, all coal in the US averages around 1 ppm uranium), and to the vast advances made in carbon capture tech, the ability to vastly increase some types of agriculture (algae culture for example) by using elevated CO2 in a green-house (closed) system that accelerates production?

Are you aware of recent advances in molten-salt reactor design that will for the first time in the history of nuclear engineering, allow for the use of completely un-enriched fuel, and also allow the use of so-called "spent" nuclear fuel as direct breeder cycle fuel? These designs used 1950's molten salt reactors as a starting point, then made sweeping changes based on better knowledge, and a keen insight of two graduate students at MIT, and incorporates a reactor dump system that shuts down nuclear flux in the event of a catastrophe such as an earthquake.

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#137
In reply to #134

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 10:30 AM

yes.

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#138
In reply to #130

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/18/2015 10:39 AM

we should quadruple our coal usage to provide jobs

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#108
In reply to #103

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/17/2015 1:44 AM

I seem to get them OT's by the bunches.

If there was a proper reply to explain my faulty logic I'd be happy. Now I just laugh about it.

Maybe my logic is not faulty. Here ya go. OT for this one because it is!

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#12

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 2:06 PM

This is a piece written in 2011 about an article written in 2009.....and it talks about the amplified effect of CO2 that causes warming which in turn causes more clouds which in turn causes more global warming, yer runaway greenhouse effect scenario.....so called alarmist pov...

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/30/lindzen-on-negative-climate-feedback/

Current thinking on Global Warming....

"

Is Current Warming Natural?

In Earth's history before the Industrial Revolution, Earth's climate changed due to natural causes not related to human activity. Most often, global climate has changed because of variations in sunlight. Tiny wobbles in Earth's orbit altered when and where sunlight falls on Earth's surface. Variations in the Sun itself have alternately increased and decreased the amount of solar energy reaching Earth. Volcanic eruptions have generated particles that reflect sunlight, brightening the planet and cooling the climate. Volcanic activity has also, in the deep past, increased greenhouse gases over millions of years, contributing to episodes of global warming.

These natural causes are still in play today, but their influence is too small or they occur too slowly to explain the rapid warming seen in recent decades. We know this because scientists closely monitor the natural and human activities that influence climate with a fleet of satellites and surface instruments.

NASA satellites record a host of vital signs including atmospheric aerosols (particles from both natural sources and human activities, such as factories, fires, deserts, and erupting volcanoes), atmospheric gases (including greenhouse gases), energy radiated from Earth's surface and the Sun, ocean surface temperature changes, global sea level, the extent of ice sheets, glaciers and sea ice, plant growth, rainfall, cloud structure, and more.

On the ground, many agencies and nations support networks of weather and climate-monitoring stations that maintain temperature, rainfall, and snow depth records, and buoys that measure surface water and deep ocean temperatures. Taken together, these measurements provide an ever-improving record of both natural events and human activity for the past 150 years.

Scientists integrate these measurements into climate models to recreate temperatures recorded over the past 150 years. Climate model simulations that consider only natural solar variability and volcanic aerosols since 1750-omitting observed increases in greenhouse gases-are able to fit the observations of global temperatures only up until about 1950. After that point, the decadal trend in global surface warming cannot be explained without including the contribution of the greenhouse gases added by humans.

Though people have had the largest impact on our climate since 1950, natural changes to Earth's climate have also occurred in recent times. For example, two major volcanic eruptions, El Chichon in 1982 and Pinatubo in 1991, pumped sulfur dioxide gas high into the atmosphere. The gas was converted into tiny particles that lingered for more than a year, reflecting sunlight and shading Earth's surface. Temperatures across the globe dipped for two to three years.

Although volcanoes are active around the world, and continue to emit carbon dioxide as they did in the past, the amount of carbon dioxide they release is extremely small compared to human emissions. On average, volcanoes emit between 130 and 230 million tonnes of carbon dioxide per year. By burning fossil fuels, people release in excess of 100 times more, about 26 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide, into the atmosphere every year (as of 2005). As a result, human activity overshadows any contribution volcanoes may have made to recent global warming.

Changes in the brightness of the Sun can influence the climate from decade to decade, but an increase in solar output falls short as an explanation for recent warming. NASA satellites have been measuring the Sun's output since 1978. The total energy the Sun radiates varies over an 11-year cycle. During solar maxima, solar energy is approximately 0.1 percent higher on average than it is during solar minima.

Each cycle exhibits subtle differences in intensity and duration. As of early 2010, the solar brightness since 2005 has been slightly lower, not higher, than it was during the previous 11-year minimum in solar activity, which occurred in the late 1990s. This implies that the Sun's impact between 2005 and 2010 might have been to slightly decrease the warming that greenhouse emissions alone would have caused.

Scientists theorize that there may be a multi-decadal trend in solar output, though if one exists, it has not been observed as yet. Even if the Sun were getting brighter, however, the pattern of warming observed on Earth since 1950 does not match the type of warming the Sun alone would cause. When the Sun's energy is at its peak (solar maxima), temperatures in both the lower atmosphere (troposphere) and the upper atmosphere (stratosphere) become warmer. Instead, observations show the pattern expected from greenhouse gas effects: Earth's surface and troposphere have warmed, but the stratosphere has cooled.

The stratosphere gets warmer during solar maxima because the ozone layer absorbs ultraviolet light; more ultraviolet light during solar maxima means warmer temperatures. Ozone depletion explains the biggest part of the cooling of the stratosphere over recent decades, but it can't account for all of it. Increased concentrations of carbon dioxide in the troposphere and stratosphere together contribute to cooling in the stratosphere."

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php

Read all...

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page1.php

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#13

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 2:06 PM

No matter what causes it, the oceans will rise and we will have to pay more taxes to handle solutions such as moving people, building dikes etc.

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 2:29 PM

Over the past 20+ thousand years, the changes in sea level were entirely natural. Regardless of human activity, the oceans will rise (and fall) over geologic time.

Anone who lives on an island is living on borrowed time, so to speak -- but so is anyone who lives near an earthquake fault zone, or lives anywhere east of Yellowstone, or who lives in Florida, or who lives in the Tornado belt, ...

At this point the rise in sea levels is slow enough that the combination of 'ordinary weather', cultural shifts, and population changes will take care of the issue. When I lived in Florida, around the time of hurricane Elena, most houses near the shores were at beach level. Following Elena, the property owners who could afford it had their houses raised on stilts. Those who could not afford it, moved away. Some managed to get government (i.e., taxpayer) money to get their houses fixed - welfare for the rich, in other words.

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 5:28 PM

It seems our ancestors were really burning the fuel some 15,000 years ago!

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#19
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Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/12/2015 5:35 PM

At rates too small to be meaningful, and which should not be compared with today's rates.

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#32
In reply to #19

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 10:03 AM

that was a joke

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#46
In reply to #13

Re: why isn't this better known info?

12/13/2015 8:29 PM

The oceans have risen, the oceans have fallen, in tune with temperature changes…Glacial eras locked up water in ice, and the Aleutian islands became population highways from N. Russia to Alaska and down the West Coast of the Americas and into Canada. When the Glacial retreats start, the oceans rise. I have seen abalone shells 200 feet above current ground elevations. We have had woolly mammoths into the Steppes, forests above Greenland etc. CO2 concentrations were much different , yet many specie did quite well with concentrations at double or triple todays current level. The species that survived learned to adapt, moved off of the barrier islands and inland to higher ground. Ground upheavals and plate subduction have also made measuring water and land elevations a real challenge. Todays' water line may be higher or lower only because of the movement of the earth below it. Too many variables to go rushing into a frenzy, and to call for RICO processes to begin against those that disagree with the "consensus", so as to crush dissent of different ideas (Research "Travesty" Trenworth--See why his nickname is "Travesty") .. When everyone is on the same page, and stop yelling at each other and as much funding is provided for the Dissidents as well as Climate Alarmists, independent inspection of facts is allowed, then I will feel we are moving in the right direction.

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#16

Re: Why Isn't This Better Known Info?

12/12/2015 3:14 PM

Maybe because it's neither better, nor known, nor info?

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#33
In reply to #16

Re: Why Isn't This Better Known Info?

12/13/2015 10:04 AM

funny because it's true

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#22

Re: Why Isn't This Better Known Info?

12/12/2015 6:41 PM

Dang it! I was hoping my global warming research grants would have been approved before the news broke Oh well, I guess I'll try for prediction research grants for the next global ice age

So, in 150 year span mankind knows all there is to know about global climate change? Yeah, right!

The sky is falling! ..... The sky is falling!!

No Chicken Little, that was a Seagull that just flew over your head

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