Who's Driving This?

And still no one is thinking about it....

The only way to increase survivability in crashes, in a meaningful way, is to avoid the crashes altogether....I'd say common sense is driving this....and of course increasing the need for more advanced technology to advance mankind...is driving it economically...now if we could only do the same thing with handguns...

Not exactly....someone with common sense has programmed the system...in fact engineers have determined your car's capabilities through scientific study, and enabled it to assist you with making decisions where safety is concerned....It's no different than using a speedometer to determine your speed...or performing scheduled maintenance....or windshield wipers to better see in the rain...etc etc..These are all safety features whose goal is to make travel safer...

Ok, The point that I'm making, you have one engineer or two or three with common sense designing the system... Replacing or assisting the drivers input... As far it just being an assistant to drive.... No, the human trait will push it where they will rely on it.

As far as assist, I have to admit the Moller Hover car, back in the 80's-90's they were going to incorporate GPS as well as other systems to detect where you are and other hover cars to avoid crashes... At the time the technology wasn't there, but today it is.

How will these autonomous cars handle small animals in the road? Driving at night on country roads particularly can require special attention and anticipation. You see a pair of eyes at the edge of the road reflecting your headlights - what will your smart car do then - continue on regardless? Crunch - another casualty. Your neighbor's cat dashes for cover but your smart system doesn't pick it up and you leave it squashed outside their driveway. Explain that to your neighbor.

Some will just regard this as collateral damage and snigger about "roadkill." Personally I hate to see it and make a point of being on the ball, ready to brake and sound the horn (vital) in rural areas. I have only once hit and killed a cat on the road and that was in 1963. Lesson learned.

There are cars that see issues ahead that you don't see.... even issues ahead of the car/vehicle ahead of you.

Animals? No problem!

You mean to say, one is supposed to stop for the neighbor's cat? Uh-oh.

Common sense???

I don't understand.....? I have to consult with my 'Common Sense' app and see how to respond.

Ohh,... I just did.... and the above response is correct.

"That's interesting,... IMO, by relying on machines (computers, sensors, what have you...) on the decision making. You are removing the human aspect from the equation."

Well, since you're bringing that up, let's look at the 'decision making machines' we've already put into cars, and their effects:

• Antilock Braking Systems (ABS): improves safety by reading the tire's slip on the ground during hard breaking, and 'pumping the brakes' faster than a human can; also pumping each wheel individually on more advanced systems, something a human cannot do. Result: Shorter stopping distances in emergency stops, and reduced crashes.
• Self-Deploying Airbags: improves safety by reading the G-forces caused by momentum changes, and when the result indicates a crash, deploys and inflates a protective cushion in the split-second between the primary impact (the start of the crash) and the secondary impact (when the driver/passenger WOULD have cracked open their skull on the wheel/dashboard side window). Result: Reduced fatalities and less severe injuries from crashes that occur.
• Personal Restraint System, aka, "Seat Belts": improve safety by holding the driver/passenger against the seat during a crash, preventing the occupant from 'flying through the windscreen' during a crash. Result: Reduced fatalities and less severe injuries from crashes that occur.

Since you seem to think that 'decision making systems' in cars are causing people to become 'less able' to use their own brains and reflexes, I assume you've disabled the ABS, removed the airbags, and cut the seatbelts out of every car you own, since those would just 'hold you back' from developing the skills needed to drive safely without them?

One of the systems mentioned is a passive system and the others two are active systems of the reaction type. The next generation is here though, and these actually make value judgements and take control of the vehicle from the driver without the drivers input. Some examples of this are the cross path and front collision autobraking systems that automatically apply the brakes when an object is detected without driver input. Advanced roll mitigation that stiffens the compressing strut and drags an opposing rear brake to counter detected body lean and if necessary disengage throttle control and slow the vehicle. Lane holding and advanced blind spot monitoring. Although the basic systems simply flash a light or sound a tone the more advanced systems will not respond to your input on the wheel or they will make the correcting input for you. (made possible by electronic steering where there is no longer a physical connection between the steering wheel and the cars wheels.) These systems are not just alerting you to a situation but making a value judgment and momentarily taking control of the vehicle.

"One of the systems mentioned is a passive system and the others two are active systems of the reaction type."

The 'passive/active' designation is more of a level of the technology involved, they all 'react' to a condition, the seat belt reacts when it's pulled out 'too fast' and the spring-loaded ratchet teeth get pulled out to engage the arresting ring. The ABS and airbags do the same thing (react to a stimulus) however, they need electricity to operate.

"The next generation is here though, and these actually make value judgements and take control of the vehicle from the driver without the drivers input."

Again, the systems I names make 'value judgements' (is the seat belt spooling out too fast, are the wheels starting to lose braking traction, was that a 'make room, I'm parking here' bump or were we just hit?) and 'take control' ("You're staying in that seat, buster"/"I'm pumping the brakes like a machine gun right here"/"You see car that just plowed into your front? No you don't, all you see is MY BIG WHITE AIRBAG BELLY IN YOUR FACE!") without driver input (You don't get to choose when those features activate, they activate when THEY say they need to activate, and your slow meat-brain may still take another whole 1/5 of a second to realize "Hey, something's wrong here").

ALL Driver Assist/Autonomous Driving systems will be of the 'reaction' type, they have to gather and use external data, and then act based on that data. No stimulus, no reaction.

Or are you concerned about the "Your care will be programmed to kill you" scenario. I would find it very unlikely that any self-driving car would be programmed to travel along city streets at a speed that would prevent them from reacting to an unexpected obstacle in the front by 'braking to avoid a collision.' We're used to humans traveling down the narrow side streets at 10-20mph over the speed limit, cell phone in one hand, late in the other, shaving with an electric razor, applying mascara using the rearview mirror, and eating a Woppa, a Big Stan, a whole bucket of Kansas Fried Chiuaua, a chicken Cesar salad and a diet soda, all at once, that we assume that the automated cars will drive just as fast and recklessly. Self driving cars on the city streets will be more Driving Miss Daisy (without the racial and antisemitic issues) and less Days of Thunder.

That's not very good examples and rashavarek summed it up pretty well.

If Neil Armstrong had relied on automatic control systems in Apollo 1, they would have been dead from blacking out during uncontrolled roll of the spacecraft. In fact, one of the maneuvering thrusters was stuck in "operate", and none of these thrusters had indicator lights on them. Last ditch try to save them worked, fire the retro rockets in an angle that offset the roll rate, and they did stabilize, and also reduced orbital speed such that an early end to the mission took place.

Automatic is good, but manual override may still need to be present. Automatic does not remove the human element. It simply places it farther upstream in the mind of an engineer and the team that makes the item(s) function as manufactured.

The automation will never be better than the mind(s) that engineered it in the first place, and will not "do something new", but it faithfully reproduce the function intended as long as all connected and related subsystems behave normally.

Artificial intelligence may soon reach the point where the machine "could learn something new". Then I pity the fool that tries to override auto-cruise in heavy traffic.

I'm sure the switch from horses to automobiles was met by the same skepticism.

I have to agree... As an example That is one of the selling points of having a Lamborgini or Porsche.

Or just driving period no matter what the wheels are.

Hear, hear. I think those who want autonomous cars view their automobile the same way they view their washing machine. It is an appliance, to get them from Point A to Point B. No emotion, no fahrvergenugen, nuttin'. I too, just enjoy getting out and enjoying the freedom that driving allows. 600 mile day? No sweat. I can super-slab it or savor the back roads and the experiences of exploring little towns and villages out of the way.

I know this sounds a little whacko, but my fear is (over the long term), autonomous cars are just a step in the direction of people in government controlling how, when, and where we go.

Can anyone recall the last time that our government expanded our liberties?

"Can anyone recall the last time that our government expanded our liberties?"

The repeal of Prohibition?

Good one. I hadn't considered one where they took it away, then gave it back.

Well, I would say we never really got it all back. Through prohibition, the federal government gained the ability to tax your income. It was a replacement for the alcohol tax that was lost. So it seems after it was all said and done - it's really more government control rather than less.

I would say people like my Ex are who is driving it.

That is to say,

people who are too wrapped upon their social networks to have the spare mental capacity to pilot a vehicle safely,

or are 'too lazy' to drive themselves,

or are too 'above the common people' to drive themselves,

or are 'too afraid of everyone else driving'

or that feel that someone, anyone should be more responsible or to blame for the lack of their well-being than themselves.

That's who.

Perhaps there should be a minimum IQ threshold and anyone below it is required to have the car do the driving.

Gosh, that is damned prejudice. How dare you write such words. We are all equal you know.

P.S. I agree with you 100%.

That would safely rule out about 90% of the population, especially registered voters. LOL

But only the voters registered to the 'wrong party,' eh?

These days, not so much. Both parties (or at least certain candidates within both parties) seem to thrive, even "trump" on the less-educated, ill-informed voter.

I was leaving work, there was snow was melting.... At the parking lot, the side walk slope down creating a deep water puddle a good 4-6". Within the area there was a school near our plant, I'd see kids walking past as I go out to my car

Well..., as I was opening my car door, I see this teenager about a block away looking at her phone about to cross a street. And I watch, she stepped off the curb into traffic, where a car had to stop quickly... (The pedestrian did have the right-a-way) good thing the driver wasn't on their phone and saw her. Anyways, she didn't even flinch or miss a step... Totally envolvement on her smart phone. So I just watched... Well she came walking and right into the puddle went over her tennis shoes, and only then did she snap out of her trance.

She was right in front of me looked at me and laughed. I asked her if she notice the car when she crossed the street... Her reply, what car? I told her, you best pay attention to where you're walking.

I understand that youth these days have little interest in getting a driver's license. I can remember at that age counting the days until I reached 16.

It doesn't bode well for the future.

"It doesn't bode well for the future."

The younger generation has been going to hell in a handbasket ever since spears were invented.

They still haven't made it there yet.

Maybe self driving cars are needed now. Then they can text while driving all the time.

Yep, Zeno's Paradox gets 'em every time.

too timid

(Before Tornado fixes it for me.)

I was telling a friend a while back about V-V and the work of Nvidia and others and he says he'll flat out refuse to get in a car unless he's in control of it. ( guess he's never flown commercially)

Short answer:-
Those of us who want to get from A to B in a safe timely manner.

Long answer:-
You only have to drive following the car in front at 70mph and observe that in the lane which is moving faster there are 3 cars taking up what would be a safe stopping distance for one!
SAFETY.
Most people these days seem to think the brake pedal allows you to over-ride the laws of physics... prob' 'cos:-

a) They've never ridden a motor bike.
b) Understanding of physics is abysmal these days due to dumbing down.
c) They think ABS will stop them instantly
d) They are just plain stupid.

If you do happen to leave enough stopping distance you can rest assured, that in the event of an accident, one of the idiots described above will swerve into your space.
ABS has helped reduce accidents, the sooner we have radar (or whatever) to stop idiots following too close the better.
Computer controlled cars will give more even and efficient traffic flow so we'll all get there quicker.

It will also make it better for the elderly infirm of visually impaired in an increasingly ageing population. maybe they should include incontinence measures as standard... or is that taking piss
For people who want to play with their cars, find a track... I don't mind some car 'fun' but not at the risk to the public.
Del

Who's driving you ask? I'm driving.... there's absolutely no need for autonomous cars. That is complete hog wash......

Well either way, we are evolving... Only not in a sense that would be an improvement as a species.

Don't worry. If Microsoft writes the software, it will crash every time the car starts.

That's when LynDoor™Industries Autonomous Auto Recovery will be there to boot re-boot the car, for a minuscule fee of course.

IMO,....One of the biggest problem I also see with this is when an accident occurs, (and it will occur) is the assigning of the responsibility of the accident to.

In a no fault state, the responsibility could consist of

• 51% to the owner of the car that did the violation
• 39% to the autonomous cars manufacturer.
• 10% to the victim

And of course all of that can be contestable

An attorneys dream, for both sides.... Maybe they (the attorneys) are the ones driving it?

So to speak.

Is the Greyhound slogan still under ^TM protection?

The educational system that brought you a non-fictional title: "Little Johnny Can't Read", has now produced a blockbuster sequel: "Johnny Can't Drive, mush less read the road signs."

I worry that all of this will evolve into being unable to drive myself if I want to. The laws won't come right away, but the insurance companies will start screwing us over. "I'm sorry Mr. JHowdy your vehicle was in "Manual Driver Mode", we won't pay your claim." Or your insurance policy is void if you drive yourself. Or your insurance premium is tripled if you ever want the option to drive yourself with the explaination that you "voluntarily gave up that option."

How does it work when a crook, gang, angry mob stands in the street with weapons and our car safely comes to a stop in front of him/them? Now we get robbed, killed, or otherwise victimized.

As I stated before, automation will only include the scenarios considered by the designer. Since your designer will be agent "Q", I seriously doubt bullet-proof, entry denying capabilities will be provided, much less mob evasion, or tactical defensive measures.

Items such as that could be had, but probably will all be "after market" so to speak, just as they are now.

"How does it work when a crook, gang, angry mob stands in the street with weapons and our car safely comes to a stop in front of him/them? Now we get robbed, killed, or otherwise victimized."

If the cars are completely self-driving, with no manual option, then we can do away with weak points in the vehicle defense, such as windows. The vehicle stops, but there is no way for the raiders to get in; there's no window to smash, the door is sealed with multiple dead-bolts,and the reinforced steel walls of the body can withstand anything short of a bazooka.

The vehicle can also have sharp, serrated teeth along its 'bottom perimiter, and spikes along the outside side walls. to deter an angry mob from trying to roll the vehicle.

And you can always use your cell phone to call the cops if you suspect the people stopping you are up to no good. If the vehicle is going to be completely armored, they would also design in a 'repeater antenna' system to feed cell signals in and out without compromizing the vehicle safety.

You mean, something like this? But, with an autopilot?

Urban assault vehicle.

Urban assault assaulted vehicle.The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round....

That's the fact, Jack!

I guess some of us will resist for a while just for the heck of it, until the first autonomous car wins a racing championship against humans. Driving will not have much fun after that. Just like me, that lost all interest in chess when Deep Blue (I think) beat the chess world champion. S.M.

until the first autonomous car wins a racing championship against humans. Driving will not have much fun after that......

I agree,..... that would be as interesting as watching someone else play video games. Because playing the video game yourself can give you a blister on your thumb.....

Derned Killjoys....if machines beat us in spades at everything including checkers, wtf are we sticking around for? The end of the world?

Actually I touch off on it as a matter of responsibility of an accident.

But yes,... there is not a good answer, but as I mentioned before, the attorneys may be pushing for it.

Yes, you did phoenix. Truly, I am not the first to be asking questions.

It just distrurbs me that there is such an all-out effort to master this technology. To what REAL end....? I see articles about it seemingly everywhere. It's as if the government has a regulation deadline on having the SDCs in every driveway by 2017. To me, it seemed to have come up overnight, and as if there is some sort of prize for the first car company to have an SDC, with car consumers never asking for the first one.

I feel the same way... the question is what is the goal?

its hard to believe of the "build it they will come"... or maybe just to see if its can be done (because they're flushed with cash (google))

But there are a few, and you touched off it, and that is 'Control'.

Well, I am sure it will happen, just not in my lifetime. I have no problem with the idea of a computer controlled car. I road many a mile on the monorails at Disney World and they have no driver or monitor on board. Their service up time and accident record is the stuff of legend.

I think the basic requirement will be that all vehicles are comp controlled or none are. I envision the interstates as being the first to be automated and the cars will not be autonomous but controlled by the roadway. Much like hybrids today we will have vehicles that have the requisite onboard systems to access the "Interstate Autoroads" and yet are still driver controlled for places like West Texas. (Yes James that was for you :-P)

The safety record of fully automated control systems are far better than human controlled systems for the most part. So I see it as both a human safety issue as well as an economic one. but, as I said before, I will not live to see it most likely given our historical rate of development/adoption.

Well, I would be the one that will stop progress, but I will not just let chit happen without a challenge.

This autominous driving cars are in its infancy.

Which from some of the issues mentioned earlier, and that is responsibility when things don't go as programmed or not figured in to the program.

"Autominous"? That is amusingly Freudian.

Interesting.... I no longer care.... OMG, it happening. They're taking over....

Good catch, frankly, that's not even a word, is it?

An unintentional good example of what can happen when one just relies on autonomous autocorrect where one doesn't even proof read anymore with it on or not.

What's Triumphs TR7 catch phase..... "The shape of things to come"

OK, so now these autocars will be minions also? What is the world coming to? The next thing will be horseless carriages.

Actually, having full automatic pilot control in an RV might be nice on a long (and possibly boring) trip. OK Foggy Bottoms, see? I opened the door just a smidgeon.

Yeah, just so the bastages in Foggy Bottoms can dial me and shut down my old Pick-em-up truck when I am on a beer run.

"Good Answer" from me. Well put.

How about we just make "owning" a car illegal for the dumusses that think autocar is a good idea?

I suppose that means all us West Texans would be stranded totally, or have to go mount on our horse. There is no public transportation to get out of town with here, and everyone would be late for work, and bad days in winter, I don't think the buses even get out.

Love west Texas! Wide open spaces....had some great food in Pecos. Long drive to get any where, though........like you said, James Stewart.

You might have touched on the intangible thing I was looking for, phoenix.....

"Build it, so we can regulate it?"

More Big Government, Big Brother, Nanny State, and several other derogatory terms for: "No you can't". I am sick to death of "no you can't". I want some of that: "yes I am ready, and yes you can attitude."

I want to build what I want, make what I want, go where I damn well please, and see who the bleep ever I want to when I get there, without Big Brother's foul garlic breath down my neck.

There. Is that more or less clear on where I stand with this?

In June we're going to Amarillo to visit my girlfriends, sisters family. Spend a few days there and her niece said she'll give as a small tour of the area.

We've been there a couple of times. I enjoy it. Never this late in the summer though.

This time we're flying down, renting a car. Last time we drove down (from Wisconsin) that after a week there we drove up to Colorado Springs, looped back through Kansas, ate my first time at Joes Crab Shack.... It was great at the high plains.

There are sort of distant family members (uncles of one of my wife's granddaughters) who started Joe's Crab shack. Be sure and visit Palo Duro Canyon during your visit (south of Amarillo), and attempt to see the play "Texas" at the amphitheater.

I lived in Amarillo back in the day, and wifey is basically from Amarillo, although her dad was a millwright, and she ended up in something like 15 different schools in 12 years of school. She worked at PanTex, and was on the receiving end of the phone call from Pentagon the day we went to DefCon 2 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I visited Palo Duro Canyon the last time I was there about 2 years ago, beautiful. They have an really modern visitor center there now. we went on a few trail hikes.... My girlfriend sister mentioned some very good shows there (Texas) .... something about a horse and rider on the canyon brim....was spectacular. . I didn't get to see it, in my mind I pictured "Lone Ranger' type.

I'm looking forward to the visit.

its interesting the little interesting tidbits of life's experiences that touches major events. the members here at CR4 have. Possible the makings of a CR4 blog/discussion thread to reveal.

Something to think about.

The people who started this where way a head, now you can play your facebook games and message on twitter without watching that pesky road ;)

Oh, no worries! People in Lubbock already multi-task on the loop while "driving at a high rate of speed" and eating their morning burrito whilst slurping down their "Big Gulp".