The New Obama Shake Down

Are you trying to say you are now one of those self-flagellates? Surely you can't be suggesting I am going to get whipped by the namby-pamby pinko liberals?

They are certainly welcome to come try me when I am at home at time. They will be met with brand name hospitality.

As far as I am concerned, the only good liberal is a dead one (kinda like you white guys used to treat us injuns).

Are you trying to say you are now one of those self-flagellates?

look at it as balance... if not that, look at it as selfishness on my part.

Even though the title could be more professional, that I can over look, but the issues at hand, I feel was important.

And imo with the slant and the direction of the thread on this post was on the fringe of getting shut down, because of the number of sensitive people because you'd be trespassing on their safe space.

but hey... other than that, don't do anything foolish

and if that's not good enough,.... "here, pull my finger."

(kinda like you white guys used to treat us injuns).

Oh, and by the way,,... it may make you feel better if you just considered us white guys as just another conquering tribe that left a few of you conquered to live, I'm sure you'd feel better.

:)

Let's explain this to an European. I had some world political science courses in college. You have many political parties, covering the multitude of opinions on environmental issues. Your parties have to work together to develop policy, as one party never really has full control. So, few ever get totally offended and learn to accept compromise. A very sane system with little drama. We have ONLY 2 extremes - far right or far left, at the present. The moderate seems to have become extinct. Therefore one extreme or the other can and does grab full control here, and then the other side howls like cat with a raw behind sitting in vinegar. That's what this discussion has been all about. Right-wingers squalling. Left-wingers chiding them. That's why there is bound to be politically influenced discussions when American engineers get involved. We can't help it - it is not our fault - blame it on our environment. (pun intended) Sorry for our mess. We have no idea how to correct it. Remember, this country was primarily populated by the nuts and extremists your continent decided to run out.

ANYTHING that is related to environmental policies is going to elicit a set of 100 posts from Americans.

I only go for one type of science ......the real suff

Me too.

Like.....much heavier-than-air molecules that all gravitate to the upper extremes of our atmosphere to wipe out the ozone layer..........or all gravitate to the upper-of-the-lower atmosphere and cause global warming.

Or.....diesel soot, ...carbon, that is much-much heavier than air and all manages to gravitate upward to cause smog and greenhouse gases.

Time to go home.

Are you an atmospheric scientist now?

ClO• free radical enters into branched molecular reactions with ozone and with oxygen atom, resulting in destruction of ozone back to normal O2, and scavenging of O• atoms back to O2 also, thus disrupts the ozone production reaction. At the end of this chain of reactions the ClO• re-appears through a reaction that recycles it back to original form. It is the "catalyst from hell".

The only way out is slow diffusion of this radical back out of the ozone layer, where it is essentially, or at least far less harmful as a player. A large portion of this can eventually be transported back down to troposphere, be absorbed into droplets of water, and swept out in rain.

The early models were able to predict a general reduction in ozone, maybe even the ozone hole, but were totally inaccurate in transport in and out of the important zones.

Trust me, at the molecular dynamic level, gravity is less important than convection, and thermal equilibrium (i.e. collisions) in the gas phase.

So.....Are YOU now????

I don't think so. You just gave me theory, what can or could or might happen.....if such a molecule rises. Well, don't forget, those thermal updrafts that lift SO MUCH WATER VAPOR high into the air, also tend to deplete the nasty molecules of which you speak.....you even said so, ....."be absorbed into droplets of water". Or, was that just my imagination that you wrote that???

Ok, let me see if I can follow your logic here...

Let me borrow your atmospheric scientist hat for a moment, that you just put on.......

So, thermal updrafts, full of water vapor (vapor that tends to destroy or deplete those molecules), can lift those nasty molecules up into the ozone layer, .....but the water vapor contained in those updrafts has to wait.... until the molecules do the nasty catalytic work of destroying the ozone layer, before that water vapor can react with those molecules to deplete them from the high, upper atmosphere......

Oh, ok.....NOW I got it....!!!

And, now, I GUESS, you are saying that all is well now, because we got rid of the EVIL halogen gas components in refrigerants......

Gee, last I saw, after YEARS of ozone mapping, that the ozone "hole" opens, closes, opens, closes, opens, closes......continuously, even NOW. Just like it did in the 90's during that nasty "hole in the ozone" scare.....

It's OK Wolfie! Pat pat. Water vapor does not destroy or dissolve ClO•, might let it react with hydrocarbons though, and generally, chlorine atoms (part of the reaction sequence), can be removed in water mists (droplets, or microdroplets) simply by dissolving.

The science at the time could not really predict the hole opening, then closing again, just the opening. I suspect the atmospheric models were improved somewhat since super-computers came along, and the early research was in the late 1960's.

Let me try to explain in simple sience: the air we breathe is a nicely dispersed mixture of O₂ N₂ CO₂ H₂O and some rare gasses.

If your theory would be correct these gasses should stratify like non dispersible fluids do.

Gasses don't do that, you need high differences in molecular wheight to achieve this, and no wind.

So you know the problem is not the science but exageration of the opponents.

Let me tell you I (and most of the fellow Europeans) know way more of the US that you can imagine.

From our standpoint: you have extreme right and far right, anything that dears to move to the centre is called communism.

From our standpoint: you have extreme right and far right, anything that dears to move to the centre is called communism.

That would make our extreme left and far left, the European standard.

And that is based off of with your scale being relative to the European.

This thread really turned away from EHS issues and government involvement and turned to strictly to political ideology since you arrived.

Now I agree with you, this post turned to shit.

At the end we agree, as grown up "adults"

Yes, its common ground for a good foundation on relations that we can work off of.

You need to see a new TV show that is running this summer in the USA - Brain Dead. While it is supposed to be science fiction about an alien invasion taking over the minds of our leaders, it is really a political satire and comes rather close to depicting the ridiculous chasm that has opened in Washington DC between the opposing parties and all the behind the scenes manipulations that go on in an attempt to make the other side look bad. The invaders appear to be the source of the extreme right, because moderates and leftists that are infected go to the right, and right wing politicians, who are infected, become even more extreme. While it is obviously written by our left wing Hollywood types, it is quite entertaining and quite a good lampooning of DC politicians. Almost reminds me of some of the British comedians skits of their politicians. Oh, sorry. Britain maybe a bad word right now for mainland Europeans. (???)

I see you can understand some of our satirical humor that is disguised as a general statement. I work with a number of Frenchmen here, and that sort of thing always eludes them - they take my statements as truth, not an attempt at satire. Some think I'm quite looney.

It is telling that they only go after big corporations.

Trader Joe's has 453 stores throughout the US and likely fairly modern and well functioning equipment.

How many Ma and Pa convenience stores and little groceries are there in the US that have units running that are as old as Ma and Pa themselves? Likely tens of thousands. If leaky refrigeration units are the environmental catastrophe the EPA claims, wouldn't these units be the first on the list?

If redistribution of wealth is the goal, first science needs to be brought to heel and then the public, the massive corporate shakedowns may then proceed without complaint by those of us who ultimately pay for it.

All of the money that is collected in these shakedowns should be offered up as a prize for the engineer or company that can produce a new system that doesn't rely on "ozone depleting" gasses. I don't mean put into a fund for grants to universities, I mean an outright prize. Research grants are tainted and the research produced will always indicate that more grant money is needed to further inflate the crisis.

Carbon dioxide is a refrigerant in its own right. Probably not the best temperature range match for cheap equipment due to pressures required? No flammability hazard, but can be highly toxic in confined area where oxygen is forced out by large leak.

Ammonia used to be the refrigerant of choice, even in the home refrigerator, and it has been used in cold storage plants the world over. Slight fire hazard, and high toxicity hazard in local area of leak.

There are certainly some other notable compounds that are relatively easy to implement, but some of them like butane are too flammable to be considered safe.

Some years ago we were hearing about acoustic chillers that were going to take over the refrigeration world....did Carrier buy up and squelch that idea?

Air itself can be a refrigerant, but application to cold storage, or space HVAC is way too cumbersome.