Am I Drinking Enough Water?

I suggest you find another wellness coach. It is impossible to determine your water intake from your BMI reading

Maybe it's another reading but they do measurements on you and give you a computer printout and one of them is your hydration level.

Yes, BMI does play a factor in your hydration level.

Snake oil. BMI is calculated as weight(kg)/height(m)², so yes, if you lose a percentage of weight through dehydration the BMI will drop the same percentage. The problem is that if you lose as little as 5% of your body water you are clinically dehydrated, yet this represents a change in total body weight of around 3%, while the normal range of BMI varies about 10% around the mean. The only way you will get a result from the BMI is to go to the snake oil merchant twice and have them weigh you twice, once when you are properly hydrated and once when you are dry. You could achieve the same result on your own bathroom scales with less effort and expense.

BMI has nothing to do with hydration....

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm

...and I might add it's not accurate for everybody....If you are muscular build it says you are fat....It only takes into account your weight relationship to your height, not body type....

It interesting, at my Gym, (Anytime Fitness) They have a little hand held gadget where there's a metal plate you have where you grab unto.

To use it, you enter your age, height, sex and weight. and grab the handles and it gives you your BMI and fat%.

I always felt that it calculates your fat percentage by running a small current and reading the resistance and incorporating that to calculate your BMI is also could be pulled from the data chart and incorporates the resistance.

I also felt it was a little science mix in with a little carnival 'guess your weight' scheme.

They narrow it down a little more than that, they measure your neck and arm diameter along with your weight and height so they can determine your body fat percentage. My point wasn't about BMI. BMI is just one of the factors taken in by a wellness counselor. They take several measurements and one of them is your hydration levels. They actually measure your hydration level electronically by having you stand on two metal plates with your bare feet.

If you spend your life, your energy, and your fortune learning about your health, what will you know when you die?

To quote the late Redd Foxx:

Amen, bro, amen. I miss Redd and his intrinsic wisdom.

I'm not a health nut. The subject is some guy told that he's not drinking enough water. I just made a suggestion so he can find out if he's hydrated enough.

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Listen Kitty, if you would just quit rolling around on the carpet like that, no one would call you on the carpet, and no knit-picking or lint-picking from your navy would be needed.

Hey I am just kidding, good kitty, please don't scratch me, I hate when you do that. Love bites are OK, as long as you don't dig your teefers in.

Come on, now. Do a bit of science. Explain how a reading from two metal plates on your feet on a single occasion can give you a reliable indication of anything. Is the conductivity perhaps improved by standing in a bucket of snake oil first?

Water conducts electricity, does it not? Do you think that the amount of water in your system can affect the resistance your body has with electricity. Just hold the leads of a VOM in your fingers and you can measure your body resistance.

I like your answer... but I may be bias...

Ok.

Let's just say this: When in doubt have a drink of water.

Now that I cannot disagree with. Equally I cannot disagree with those who wish to flavour that water with some tastebud tingle.

Here you go.

Electrical impedance, when used alone, accuracy may leave something to be desired, but it can be a reliable investigation of water content and fat content.

No, it can't. It cannot separate the components of muscle, fat and free water. It like trying to solve 3-variable simultaneous equations when all you've got is one equation. You cannot make assumptions about the relative proportions of those components, because they vary with gender, age, race and etc etc. Obviously if you make two measurements on the same person within a short period of time the only meaningful change would be in the water, but you can do that on the bathroom scales.

Sorry but your underwear is showing again. Google Scholar produces 1.13 million scholarly papers on body impedance analysis in just 0.1 seconds. Back in 1986 this article discusses a study titled:

Estimation of total body water by bioelectrical impedance analysis.

Remember that this is an impedance analysis at multiple frequencies not a DC static conduction analysis. This will generate many linear and non-linear equations. Oh, you should also grasp that while conduction and conductivity are related DC attributes they are still different attributes.

Now don't forget that I also pointed out that your objection hinged on a layman's observation and your own preconceived ignorance and biases.

As for how I can possibly teach you how water content can be electrically tested with out electrocuting a subject, I can only present the scholarly articles for you to read. I cannot force you to read or think. Those who relish ignorance remain in the dark.

The most reliable way to check for dehydration is Urinalysis. But hey... I don't claim to be an expert.

The point of no urine, is a really strong indicator, the test subject needs hydration, that and flat line BP, and maybe a strong odor of death.

Well, before the point of no urine... the first clue was when it was coming out like tooth paste... but hey... that could be something else.

quite another condition would be apparent. Mercury treatment, anyone?

Your opinion, plus the same opinion brought also by you, but attributed via hearsay to an 'expert' (based on your claim that the person should be considered an authority), would only make a circle (the smallest circle) if the other opinion didn't count, or was counted at the same point as your single point.

See, if we allow another point somewhere else, then you've just got a line... no area to encompass the implied group.

Now, this 'consultant' who replaced you.... what is/was a consultant doing staffing part of an ICU shift? Seeing as he replaced you, were you also a consultant? What types of things would you consult on?

The following is an interesting sentence you wrote:

".... He told me that they still do not have a machine in the ICU for this purpose, as none of them work..."

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While that ICU not possessing equipment of this sort, says nothing about whether such equipment exists, the assertion that none of the ICUs equipment of this sort works does indeed say something about the existence of such equipment. While the current functional or nonfunctional state is not relevant to the argument, claiming that none of the ICU's equipment of this type works says equipment of this type, built for this purpose exists.

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You have flourished your attempted reference via hearsay with enough details to validate the very point you oppose.

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That last sentence was a goldmine. Let's have a look at another you wrote:

"...There is a new machine on the market which uses a dye dilution technique with injected fluorescein dyes, but that also has yet to be proven in humans ..."

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Excellent! Excellent! By all means,continue the revelation (just know, these sentences reveal far more about you than the literal subject).

A new machine on the market, huh? So much has been expended on design prototyping marketing, approval for use of a medical device, right? Of course! But those silly folks still haven't established efficacy in humans? And they have the device on the market? Oh those zany people inhabiting imagination land! What will they think up next?

You'll need to try something new and be less stingy with that honesty you've been hoarding. If you achieve that, you may realize what you saw as abuse is actually constructive criticism. What you labeled as unnecessary would have been callously crawl to leave unsaid. That for which you requests apologies may become that for which you are grateful and show appreciation.

Would you please provide a link to reasonable support for your following assertion?

'...It is the consensus of intensive care medicine that measurements made through surface electrodes are of no use in the estimation of body water. ...'

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I hope you are just baiting us by issuing a claim speaking definitively for so many people. I hope you have that reference showing something that backs up your claim that most individuals in intensive care medicine not only have pondered the question, but also have come to the same conclusion of impossibility.

If you did not intentionally bait the claim and. don't have a surprise reference waiting in the wings, then there is a long, long way to go. If you don't understand it is wrong to make definitive claims about what others believe without actual knowledge to that effect, resolution of the problem is likely to be tedious and time consuming.

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I don't want to be completely negative about your ability to comment so here is a suggestion for using you particular affliction in a positive way. You know those apologies you believe you are owed? Instead of developing a feeling of being depraved of those apologies , try this; just tell yourself that everyone has already apologized to you.. You might also see if stating to yourself that Engineers worldwide have come to the concensus that you are always right.

That probably makes it less stingey already, right?

Indeed. I will present my statement in a more emphatic form.

No UK intensive care unit attempts to measure body water with a machine which employs surface electrodes. Why? Because it is the consensus of practising intensive care physicians that they do not work.

There. Is that clear enough for you? If you are happy with that, and indeed if you are not happy with that, you can come up with a resource of your own. I hope you are aware that in the USA such devices must be registered with the FDA. Find me one such registered device. Better still, find me a hospital that uses one, and give me the name of the physician who uses it.

Good luck.

Looks like there will be one soon.

http://www.jhuapl.edu/ott/technologies/technology/articles/P02594.asp

Thank you. That is a most useful contribution.

No one is asking you to state your claims more emphatically. You have consistently misunderstood the problem.

What is being requested is that when you make claims stating something is absolutely factual, that you provide some reasonable reference supporting your claim.

Here are some things that are not reasonable references:

-Making the same claim more emphatically.

-Asserting that you are an authority/expert.

- Hearsay; claiming an authority/exper told you.

-Asserting with no example that some organization (additionally claimed aa an authority/expert) operates in a way that suggests agreemebt with your assertion.

- ad hominem attacks.

- allusions to or outright claims of you possessing superior intellect or skills of a spefic sport.

-claims that others have laughed at the opposing view.

- alerting everyone that you fewl slighted by those disagreeing with you by regularly stating the apologies various people owe you.

-utterly failing to respond to numerous on topic piints which devastate your argument.

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Realize that the more extraordinary the claim, the more likely you will be pressed for substantiation. Over all, the greater the concern over veracity, the more likely support will be requested.

That last part also means that now that you have done such a poor job respondong to criticism of your claims, pretty much everything you say, at least till you develop a better track record is suspect.

Dear troll,

yes, I understand troll behaviours too. (They are marginally better habits than those of bullies.) Now hear this: I have spoken to my former colleague in intensive care, and he confirmed what I already knew, that no ICU in the UK uses a machine with surface electrodes to measure body water. I'm afraid that the end of my feeding the trolls. It is of course up to you to suggest a) that I am a liar and that the UK hospitals are full of such machines or b) that the UK is benighted territory and that the US hospitals are full of such machines. Good luck with your quest.

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/356366

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/9083131_Use_of_bioelectrical_impedance_in_hydration_status_assessment_Reliability_of_a_new_tool_in_psychophysiology_research

http://espen.info/documents/BIA1.pdf

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup/backfile/Content_public/Journal/biomedgerontology/56/6/10.1093_gerona_56.6.M344/1/M344.pdf?Expires=1493208941&Signature=eRtgsnRQTMuZ2L3b2zmno8im3hGPwdE-ehKEVOOOUfJ-AxLqkaeCRK-jByqhJjoGuBDcyCEQ1xSnOSSBLVSk9Od1Notjlkr8XG61YGaMHJLmPxmCKRVJqEwyMjR45gIjOdwmG7se8poz4iXN9sI9JgMzlKWu8pncgRbZFkOVd2bIWAm2sB2VHHLgx2dZhcrVgSh~WbNFjiXs5gcocSTn1XLLhS4tQA1r8RZ4RnqkZ1UF9T1lvKiUX7HjpHgU7C9PRocWTajkwNEfOZnuEuokFXJKs9SxiM3hbi9n4ZnVhN4an2O4ISQNt41-hLuK8GJCvbOvTVkCzj2K0h3y8ROrjw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

Thank you. The take home message is that, even though we are not already there, we still have some promising prospects.

From what I take on what I researched is that some are already being used, the ones that work are not common place yet but they are out there.

Yes, there are smoke and mirrors, snake oil, if you will, BIA devices out there, but there are also legitimate BIA devices out there that seem to work.

I guess my point is, I did some research, I see both sides of the argument, but BIA can be and is a legitimate tool to detect hydration levels, the stupid bantering back and forth, with assertions of superior intellect and knowledge is ridiculous.

Just my humble opinion.....

And I am very respectful of your research-based opinion.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I understand that you are a retired physician, right?

Technology is advancing everyday. Imagine being a physician during the American Civil War, doing it for 5 years, getting ready to amputate a leg do to infection and somebody comes to you with an injection of penicillin, and tells you they can save the leg. You would think they are nuts.

Yes the other 3 combatants in this argument were aggressive, but I think their point is that this technology is out there, you were to the opinion that it was not.

I am not a DR. by any means, I do not claim to know how the body works more then you do, I am a process engineer, but I can do research, and my research says this technology is out there.

You have not belittled me and I have not belittled you, but in this thread you have asserted your superior intellect and knowledge to others, to somebody like me who was just sitting back and watching makes it seem like you are pompous and arrogant. I am not saying that is what you are, but that is the appearance you show.

I am just saying, have an open mind, maybe the other guys have read what I did, hydration analysis is possible and accurate with BIA devices.

Peace!

Thank you for your measured response. I think we can agree that the technology is out there; the remaining question is whether it can deliver what it claims to deliver. Now as to the question of competence. I am a retired physician. Yes, but more to the point I am a retired physician with a specialty interest in anaesthesia and intensive care. Now it may surprise you, because we are not generally self-advertising types, but anaesthetists rely on machinery to keep their patients alive, and it is therefore incumbent on them to have an understanding of their machinery. My diploma exam required me to have a substantial knowledge not only of pharmacology but also of physics. In my oral exam I was actually asked: "What should the relationship be between the output impedance of one circuit and the input impedance of another circuit in order to ensure the maximum transfer of power between the two?" I think you will appreciate that what for you may be unknown unknowns may for me be at least known unknowns, and some of them may even be known knowns.

It is for that reason that I can confidently venture into your territory. I know you can build a multiple-frequency generator. I know you can measure impedance. FWIW I know you can represent resistance, capacitance and inductance separately if you wish. The issue then is whether you can model body water distributions in a manner agreeable to analysis from multifrequency electrical stimulation. I say you cannot do it without making numerous assumptions, which then get built into the machine algorithms.

All the literature which has been presented so far has been in the form "We have tested the AAA machine for xx months on yy patients suffering from ZZZ disease. The machine got it right for ppp% of the patients". What we are looking for is "We have used the Genius machine for 1 year in our mixed intensive care unit caring for neurosurgery, liver failure, renal failure and general trauma. When tested against the gold standard of deuterium dilution it gave a reliable indication 98% of the time. We are confident of using the results in making clinical decisions". As you now see, we are a long way from a usable machine.

I have given you my opinion, which is fully backed up by my erstwhile clinical colleagues. Now to test your understanding as engineers of the human body. Without looking up on the internet, please let me know the answers to "What is the effect of hypernatraemia on body water distribution? How do you expect this to affect surface impedance measurements?" If your machine is to be worth more than sniffing at, it should be programmed to give an accurate answer to hundreds of similar questions

I never questioned your competence, I believe you are who you say you are and have the knowledge you say you do.

I do question how to portray yourself to others, I don't care how intelligent someone is, when they assert their intelligence is superior to others, it shows blatant arrogance, and doesn't sit well with many. I don't know anything about you other than what I have read on this thread, but it appeared to me, that was exactly what you were doing.

Granted, I could be having this same conversation with someone else but you are the one who responded.

So again, I did not question your competence nor do I assert that I know more about the human body than you do (very little compared to you, I'm sure). I also don't think you are venturing in to "our territory". Being a Dr. puts you here, isn't a Dr. an engineer for the human body?

As for your question on hypernatraemia, yes, I looked it up, I am not a Dr. The higher sodium levels would absolutely skew the results of an impedance test. How common is hypernatraemia? .3 to 1%?

As a Dr., answer this, if a patient has hypernatraemia, generally how soon is it diagnosed?

If the patient is known to have the condition then the BIA can be programmed for it.

Thank you again for your honest response. Please be mindful, though that my claim was to wide-ranging knowledge, not to superior intelligence.

As for your procedural question, what do you think my procedure will be?

1. "Here is a sick patient with a water balance problem. Quick, let's calibrate our *** machine, otherwise it going to be of no *** use at all".

2. "Here is a sick patient with a water balance problem. Forget the *** machine. It's not calibrated for this problem."

Please be mindful, though that my claim was to wide-ranging knowledge, not to superior intelligence.

Just keep in mind, a wide range of knowledge may be interesting tidbits of information but not necessarily really useful in upon itself. Until its integrated with pertinent and practical information.

I am still curious to know how often you see hypernatraemia, and how quickly it is usually diagnosed.

As for your procedure question, I am not a Dr., so I will not attempt to answer it. But I would imagine you do what is quickest.

I also think you are under the impression that I am pro BIA. I am neither for nor against it. I just think it is interesting technology.

Thank you. It is not at all a common condition, though I once presented a paper to our local intensive care society concerning 3 cases I had to deal with. All 3 of them were caused by mismanagement of the fluid therapy of diabetic patients, and were therefore unnecessarily admitted to intensive care.

As for doing what is quickest, sometimes we have to balance between doing the best for the individual and doing the best for the population. If I thought that calibrating a machine was going to benefit other patients in future then yes, I would do that. In this situation, though, I would find it difficult to devise a calibration scheme.

Calibration scheme: walk up and pee on the paddles, if smoke is released, then the machine is working. What it is working on, that remains unclear.

Doh! Give them some water if they are dehydrated. 9/10 times that is the answer, depending on how far underwater the patient was.

For all I know, other independent observations such as skin texture optical measurement has as much or more meaning than surface impedance.

The latest and greatest apparently scratches just under the epidermis, and gets something nearer to bulk conductivity, but that still leaves a lot of room for doubt IMHO as a physical chemist.

It would make more sense to pull a quick sodium measurement, and a blood viscosity measurement if possible since blood viscosity probably tracks rather nicely with water content, although I understand high blood glucose would be a direct interference. Blood lipids (as in hyperlipidemia) might disturb such attempted readings. Oh well, back to the chalk board.

Are you so desperate to never be wrong that you are willing to employ these shoddy attempts to reinterpret and reframe?

Can you not understand that 'never being wrong' is not a quality of an authority or someone deserving of respect. 'Honeaty, especially concerning admitting and correcting one's own wrongs' is far more important.

Come on, read man!

I specifcally told you those things don't suffice as support. Not ad homenim attacks, not hearsay, not further empty claims, not appeals to authority.

Your believability reputation is nearly negligible at this point.

"....

a) that I am a liar and that the UK hospitals are full of such machines or b) that the UK is benighted territory and that the US hospitals are full of such machines.

..."

That is not even close to your original argument. Your original argument was essentially that no analysis of body water/fat/composition was possible using measurements of currents through two conductive plates contacting the body.

I'm going to assume you follow the distinction. I also feel it is safe to bet your argument did morph without your knowledge and intent.

Is it safe to assume you saw the problems with your first claim and that motivated you to change your statement midstride? If not, what reasoning do you propose?

In the future, openly announcing a change in your position instead of trying to pass off a new argument as if it were what was being debated all along will help to avoid the perception of a slimy attribute to your argument.

"No it can't. It cannot separate..."

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You are exhibiting a special type of wrong. I isn't principally that you don't have the correct information; your error is hubris-bound, i.e. you can't see how to solve the problem so you infer that the problem cannot be solved, so all presented solutions must be frauds.

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Continual improvement (finding and correcting errors) is not compatible with a self image of perfection. Perfect doesn't progress.

Good subject.

I have a close relative who is in her early nineties. Nobody can remember her ever drinking anything but small cups of coffee from the time she wakes up until the time she goes to bed. She is still strong as ever (German) and she often drives hundreds of miles each week visiting her children etc.

So her eyes are very largely open by now? Good that when drinking those are fully wide. I bet she drives with her legs crossed though. Cheers to someone's dear Grandmother. Gotta love 'em.

She's a German machine. Nobody has ever seen her use the bathroom either.

She's probably squirrelling it away in the pan-dimensional portal.

When I was about 18 years old, I loved playing sheepshead,... and any night of the week, one could go down to the local tavern there was always a game going on at the end of the bar.

Or, we had a neighbor who had a small shack or cottage, where some of the neighborhood would stop in and there be a few games going... The sharpest playing, was in his mid 80's... he smoke cigars and word has it, drank a fifth a whiskey a day.

He'd have a bottle there as he played, sharper than a tack as the night went on,... and his bottle empting out... problem was... if you were his partner, and you missed a trick, the first time... he'd get upset,... but any time after... he get pretty piss'd.

So me being a young player (at the time), who made mistakes... he got po'd at me a couple of times.

But I was really in awe,... with as much whiskey as he put away, how he could remember what card was already played, and what possible cards you or each other held... and we like 4-5 and maybe 6 hands in a game... 7 people was real cut-throat.

My dad taught me a different card game, but basically the same idea. The idea was to capture "tricks."

He was murderous at it.

has,... and if you pick the blinds you HAVE TO PICK UP AT LEAST ONE TRICK, or you and you partner pay double...

it goes by another name called Schafkopf..

In Michigan, we have a card game like that called Euchre.

Mum & dad liked to play that game with friends when I was a child. I could hear them talking and laughing in the kitchen late into the night. Good times.

Really, Euchre??? I have heard that not many people have heard of it out side of Michigan, mainly the U.P. Something like the pasties we love to eat.....

Yepperdoodles. Quite popular.

Nope,... wisconsin it's pretty popular

You eat pasties? Wow must be a lot of strip clubs up there. (That's a joke, bro).

I think dad called our game spades, but Euchre is almost identical to that, AFAICT.

Oh... we played that on bus trips in high school,... very similar.

As a follow-up to my own medication comment - never mind the complex science - I have found a glass of beer when feeling thirsty (or dry mouth/throat) during hard work has a beneficial effect (by hard work I mean any exercise more than sat at a computer) - I don't know why (but can guess) - I just pee more water - even when sweating a lot.

Just lately, for 6 days, I have been thinning out shrubs and brambles from the undergrowth (knackering for me) and the beer (as opposed to water/tea/coffee) really helps. I feel better for it.

Ronseto, I see a lot of links and scientific references supported by facts and studies, posted here.

None of that matters!

If your wife said you are not drinking enough water, then you are not. End of story, she needs no science or facts to back up her claims, she's your wife and she is always right.

The sooner husbands figure that out, the happier they will be.

I could never figure it out, oh, well.......

I guess you should ask your doctor as you can't be sure about any researches whatever scientific they are! Moreover, I wouldn't trust those dieting "experts". The last pro essays research I read was proving that you should drink water whenever you feel thirsty and no more cause excessive water will be cleansed from the body by your kidneys.

Yes, the doctors can google too. But there sources are more respected

1. Drinking Water Helps Maintain the Balance of Body Fluids. Your body is composed of about 60% water. The functions of these bodily fluids include digestion, absorption, circulation, creation of saliva, transportation of nutrients, and maintenance of body temperature.

2. Water Can Help Control Calories. For years, dieters have been drinking lots of water as a weight loss strategy. While water doesn't have any magical effect on weight loss, substituting it for higher calorie beverages can certainly help.

3. Water Helps Energize Muscles. Cells that don't maintain their balance of fluids and electrolytes shrivel, which can result in muscle fatigue. "When muscle cells don't have adequate fluids, they don't work as well and performance can suffer," says Guest.

4. Water Helps Keep Skin Looking Good. Your skin contains plenty of water, and functions as a protective barrier to prevent excess fluid loss. But don't expect over-hydration to erase wrinkles or fine lines, says Atlanta dermatologist Kenneth Ellner, MD.

5. Water Helps Your Kidneys. Body fluids transport waste products in and out of cells. The main toxin in the body is blood urea nitrogen, a water-soluble waste that is able to pass through the kidneys to be excreted in the urine, explains Guest. "Your kidneys do an amazing job of cleansing and ridding your body of toxins as long as your intake of fluids is adequate," he says.

6. Water Helps Maintain Normal Bowel Function. Adequate hydration keeps things flowing along your gastrointestinal tract and prevents constipation. When you don't get enough fluid, the colon pulls water from stools to maintain hydration -- and the result is constipation.

6 Reasons on WHY water is essential!