Concrete Erosion

Maybe this will help...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation

I have a decorative concrete fountain in the front yard with "stalagmites" from rain water like the picture below.

If they are like the picture, those would be 'stalactites'.... or maybe I'm holding the tablet upside down.

Yep, I was always taught:

"The mites go up, and, the tights tites come down."

Another one, "The stalagMITES rise mightily from the cavern floor, the stalagTITES cling tightly to the cavern roof."

here's one which I learned the difference from grade school,... stalagTite (Top) which leaves the other from the bottom.

Yup, sorry about that.

Thank you, that helps me to understand what is happening.

The atmospheric conditions/constituents engendering acid rain outside the building are essentially the same (maybe a bit higher, or lower pH-wise) as those in the ambient air of the interior from which the condensate is formed. As the condensate water traverses the alkaline concrete, it is progressively neutralized of its acidity by taking with it some amount of the solubilized concrete constituents producing the alkalinity.

Somewhat the same may be observed when rain water from certain types of roofing (esp. polymer coated metal) flows from a downspout across an uncoated concrete surface (e. g., driveway). In both cases usually the condensate/rain water disperses and neutralizes sufficiently to the point where it will hydrate and nourish discoloring mold and algae on the concrete surface.

1. how often does your air conditioner run?
2. and what region of the country is it located?
3. And how long has it been installed?

Runs about 10 to 12 hours a day.

Deep South, Alabama

Was installed 13 years ago.

Considering that area has a higher wet-bulb temperature

That creates a pretty good stream of concentrate.

As the term 'Air Conditioner' means it conditions the air by removing the humidity and being close to... relatively close to the gulf, it has quite a load.

.

It's called Chinese water torture....

Yes. Loads of people do.

I cannot argue with that! Good point!

Er, ah, er, shouldn't it be dumped down the drain instead?

If there is a floor drain there, then yes that would be acceptable....You don't want a direct connection though...sewer lines backup occasionally...

Why not capture it and water some potted plants? Put it in the solarium and water the orchids.

Even better.

Mainly because it is constantly wet, this promotes the growth of algae....as any A/C man can tell you algae is a constant threat....down here in Fl we dump a cup of bleach down the drains every month, if you don't the algae will grow up the drain line into the evaporator coil and clog it up, causing all sorts of problems....Plants need a thorough watering followed by a drying out period....keeping them wet all the time will cause root rot....Now you could capture the water in a container, but that will soon be filled with algae as well.....

Lovely Florida! In West Texas, that scenario would rarely exhibit if ever.

Thank God for Blessing Texas!

Cool bit of tech there.

How do you retrofit it into an existing concrete slab?

Would not have a clue, but a minor hair split - 'corrosion' - unless it is by impact -

Actually the reaction with excess carbonic acid that produces Ca(HCO₃)2_(aq) is the relevant reaction, since this is the one that produces soluble calcium.

The impact of falling droplets produces sufficient agitation to keep a fresh solution of carbonic acid in contact with the surface.

Yeah. My bad. Good catch.

My understanding from school was that distilled water is the greatest solvent per volume or weight of any liquid therefore it has the ability to dissolve the concrete over time. I assume that if it was a mineral laden water this erosion would be much less or maybe no existent.

Sounds really good from here.

• For information, the evaporation process of making drinking water from seawater on ships involves passing the condensate through a re-hardening unit to dissolve some of the calcium salts into the water to improve taste and wholesomeness for health. Water than less than 60ppm of Ca+ is not good for the body. If the condensate can dissolve minerals intentionally, then it can dissolve calcium-bearing minerals such as those in concrete unintentionally as well.

"Water than less than 60ppm of Ca+ is not good for the body."

OMG!

Nearly 100 times W.H.O. recommended fluoride levels!

Call the tin hats!

What, pray tell, does the Calcium level, or rather how, does it correlate with the Fluoride level?

It doesn't.

"Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof."

I manufacture dental floss, so have more than a passing interest in oral health.

I am concerned by a number of alarmists who scream bloody murder at the thought of adding a small amount fluoride to drinking water - which would bring its' level up to approx. 1/100th of the MINIMUM level recommended for calcium!!

Also, cannot understand their fixation with fluoride, when there are so many additives in everything we eat and drink. Salt has iodine, bread has vitamin D & folate, etc etc etc. Probably many other things, to - we may never know -

& if you go to the doc with IBS, there is a far chance he is going to prescribe what? excreta!!!! Yes, somebody elses! To restore the alimentary canals biota - possibly damaged by antibiotics.

What is the fixation with fluoride?

Seems you first mentioned fluoride level in drinking water.

I full well realize the benefits of sufficient fluoride in drinking water w.r.t. dental health.

Lack of calcium in the diet (including water) can be a serious health risk beyond dental health.

I am not fixated, and my pupils are not dilated at this point in time, thank you for asking.

Sorry James was not referring to you re the fixation. I was referring to the tin hats running around saying 'the government are trying to make you stupid by adding fluoride to the water' (no effort required there, methinks)

and 'they are just trying to unload a mountain of industrial waste by making local councils buy it and put it into the water'

Funny that none of them say 'we should reduce the amount of fluoride in high fluoride natural waters' which have been recorded up to 14 ppm, even up to 67 ppm!

Have a great day.

Nicely done! Cheers. I agree, too much flouride in natural drinking water should be corrected, possibly with calcium.

Here is one study that suggests concern is warranted.

Notice how fluoride tooth paste recommends not swallowing? Fluoride treatment is good applied to teeth on the surface. Ingesting fluoride is a long route to the teeth and it doesn't have much known benefit to anything else you might be exposing it to.

Fluoride ions are more concerning where there is a lack of calcium which tends to make it less soluble.

Haven't got time to work out how to convert mg/l to ppm etc, but this is key "Mean levels of F in water were almost 3.5 and 6 times higher than WHO limits in Salitral and 5 de Febrero, respectively."

Seems to indicate that WHO limits might be ok - unless someone comes up with a contrary study of zero F vs WHO F, showing WHO F correlates to IQ reduction. But then the increased cavities will be causing school loss, and preoccupying childs development so at some point (hypothetically) these curves would cross. Then there is shorter lifespan and reduced Q of life with poor oral health.

Once again, treating teeth with fluoride does not require swallowing fluoride. Applying topically is much safer and more effective. It just needs to get into your mouth, not down your gullet.

Even though there are numerous exciting fluoride toothpaste flavors as well as intriguing flavors of fluoride mouthwash; these things also need to make it only into your mouth and no further. Don't go swallowing those things even if you do find the taste yummy, you don't have tastebuds in your stomach anyway.

Fluoride TOOTHPASTE has fluoride levels that are a little high for ingesting, but fluoridated WATER has very little fluoride, two glasses of water have about the same amount of fluoride that you unknowingly let slip past your tongue during a single brushing.

It does no harm to areas where brushing is done twice a day as a matter of routine, but in areas where the kids may not have⁽¹⁾ toothbrushes and fluoride toothpaste, it provides some help, and is better then just letting their teeth rot in their heads⁽²⁾.

Notes:

1. I did not say "have access to" toothbrushes and toothpaste. They have ACCESS to them, they see them in the pharmacies. It's just that with their family's less-than-living-wage earnings, it's either food or oral care. If they spent money on toothpaste, it would end up being one of the meals during the week because the food ran out.
2. If they can't afford toothbrushes, do you think they can afford dentist visits?

Fluoride TOOTHPASTE has fluoride levels that are a little high for ingesting,

I like to add, I don't believe the fluoride would be the problem, If it a whitening toothpaste, its the Whitening agent in the toothpaste that would more of the problem because its a bleaching agent.

Whitening toothpaste normally uses baking soda or hydrogen peroxide as the bleaching agent. Both are safer than Chlorine bleach (and when people talk of 'bleaching agents,' the first thing that comes to the public's mind is chlorine, since that's what's marketed as "bleach.") and both can be ingested in small quantities with no ill effects. The mucus of the stomach lining protects against hydrochloric acid, a mole of H₂O₂ isn't going to do any damage there, and it'll probably just oxidize some carbohydrates insoluble fats as it decomposes into H₂O and O₂.

Thanks,... yes my post was misleading...

So I did a little more research about the whitening agents that I like to add.

"Toothpastes (dentifrices) which are advertised as "whitening" rarely contain carbamide peroxide, hydrogen peroxide or any other bleaching agent. Rather, they are abrasive (usually containing alumina, dicalcium phosphate dehydrate, calcium carbonate or silica), intended to remove surface stains from the tooth surface."

Thanks again.

"...

As Ismail and Hasson (2008) have argued “We believe that dentists should dismiss the misconception that there is a balance between dental caries and fluorosis, because patients can accrue the benefits of topical fluorides without developing fluorosis and without systemic intake”

..."

.

The paper containing the above quote is worthy of review.

there is a difference between "can" and "will".

"because patients can accrue the benefits of topical fluorides without developing fluorosis and without systemic intake”.

Somebody always wants to remake the roadway to health, although it has been paved many times over the same path.

As far as water at room temperature, mg/L = ppm owing to the density of water near 1 Kg/L. If Dr. WHO thinks we need more fluoride in the water, why doesn't he turn up the sonic screwdriver and fix it?

The curves do cross, and UNO where. By the way, in the real world there is no such thing as "zero" anything in water. It might be non-detectable, but trust me, there is still at least one atom of "X" present, even if we cannot measure it.

What is the 'ideal' composition of drinking water then, PW? Are other elements or compounds etc. necessary / probably / essential, etc. etc.?

Here I am - 'LMGTFM!'

https://www.google.com/search?q=%27ideal%27+composition+of+drinking+water&oq=%27ideal%27+composition+of+drinking+water&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.2054j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

It simply needs to comply with World Health Organisation guidelines.

What in hell does the W.H.O. have to do with concrete erosion anyway?

Drink Brawndo it has electrolytes

If you are already thirsty, and all your beverage does it mutilate your thirst, does it mean you quit sweating in the crotch?

ROFLMAO.

Brawndo reminds me of a cleanser: Bab-O, also looks like a can of Bon-Ami.

I never drink anything that scours toilets or sinks.

Coors, or Shiner Bock. That is about as far as I travel.

It also should be mentioned that distilled water has a ph below 7, making it acidic. This contributes to the erosion factor. In our health coaching, we sometimes suggest a short period of consuming distilled water for detoxification (but usually never more than 6 weeks). Longer use depletes the body of needed minerals - especially in the bones, heart muscles and other vital areas.

Regarding deionization, this water was used in the nuclear power generation I worked in to prevent erosion of certain piping. The smart stations kept a good eye on the PH factor to maintain the equipment in working condition.

It totally depends on the "mineral" dissolved. If the mineral is sodium chloride, with carbonic acid from the air, then the erosion/corrosion of concrete would be accelerated even more. One has to be careful in how things are phrased in chemistry.

or sulfur, but unlikely.

Pure water is corrosive. I had made some tanks for a pharmaceutical company that used ionized water, and we had to glass line those tanks.

<...ionized...> Um, er, de-ionised, perhaps?

yes

Let me also ask you: If you "ionize" water will you not have a plasma state swirling around in a magnetic bottle?

As to pharmaceutical grade water, there is a set of strict legal definitions in the USA, and it defines water in several classes, not just one.

a short description of pharmaceutical grade water

Some definitions require low solute residual concentrations, others require total absence of pyrogens, and still others require that no toxins of any kind at any level be present.

A few ppb of something does not sound like much until it has a direct bearing on the health of the recipient.

Iron dissolved in or suspended in water from corrosion is one of those things.

<...A few ppb of something does not sound like much until it has a direct bearing on the health of the recipient...Iron dissolved in or suspended in water from corrosion is one of those things...> Um, er, actually iron at 50ppm is not detrimental to health, as the body needs iron. However, one will not get those linen sheets "whiter than white" using such water for clothes washing.

First of all, we were talking about a plant environment at first - pharmaceutical grade water to be precise, and the same can be said for chip manufacture where the purity standards are beyond anything else.

Actually, Mr. Slack, suspended iron oxide is not beneficial at all to human health, you need to go back and check source material for that answer. Dissolved, un-complexed iron is even dangerous to health of cells.

Maybe you meant that by the time it gets to the stomach, something organic will complex with the iron, thus rendering it safe? That could be correct, given the right circumstances. I would never recommend that anyone drink water directly out of a well with visible iron staining on the rocks near it, or if there is an "ironish" taste.

Sometimes said iron comes with other minerals out of the well formation that may be well past the toxicity of iron, but that is a striped horse, and we are talking about an orange horse.

..."Although present in drinking water, iron is seldom found at concentrations greater than 10 milligrams per liter (mg/L) or 10 parts per million. However, as little as 0.3 mg/l can cause water to turn a reddish brown color.

Iron is mainly present in water in two forms: either the soluble ferrous iron or the insoluble ferric iron. Water containing ferrous iron is clear and colorless because the iron is completely dissolved. When exposed to air in the pressure tank or atmosphere, the water turns cloudy and a reddish brown substance begins to form. This sediment is the oxidized or ferric form of iron that will not dissolve in water."...

http://www.idph.state.il.us/envhealth/factsheets/ironfs.htm

I just fabricated the tanks under the pharmaceutical company's design and requirements PW corrected me, it was deionized water..

It was part of a reactor.

Distilled water in contact with air picks up CO2 from the normal air mix and sulphates and nitrous oxides from any local air pollution. Normal "pure" water tends towards a pH5.6, slightly acid, which dissolves the calcium carbonate in concrete.

Entirely reasonable to have the erosion because of slow dissolving of the calcium from the concrete. The city of San Francisco gets its water supply from across the state using a dam and reservoir inside Yosemite National Park (its construction was the first legal battle waged by the then-fledgling Sierra Club and the first one they lost). They have to add "hardness" to the water before it leaves the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne River because it was eroding the insides of the concrete aqueducts.

--jmm

The best thing is to seal the concrete....rainwater is the same as distilled water or condensate water, the ph is going to vary but usually falls in the acidic range....

Good point, and the reason for that is zero buffer strength with respect to alkalinity present (nil).

Sealing is truly a good way to protect concrete.