Language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu9MptWyCB8

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/26/reinforcements/

• _{For information: "three-and-fourpence" is a term familiar to those who used pre-1971 British coinage, where the £1GBP was split not into 100 pence, as it is today, but 20 shillings ["s"], and each of these was split into 12 pence ["d"]. Thus "three-and fourpence" can be written 3s 4d, or 3/4d (not conceptually any sort of fraction), and its monetary value since decimalisation in 1971 equates to about £0.17GBP or 17p, where the suffix "p" is the denoter for the post-1971 decimal penny. It was commonplace before then to talk/write in terms of "two-and-six"/"2/6d" (now 12.5p), or "six-and-eleven"/"6/11d" (about 34p) and so-on.}

I do not think commonly misspelled words affect comprehension drastically.

Usually the critical parts of the post are the acronyms and abbreviations of technical vocabulary that is exclusive to an engineering field, and the way of saying it depends on local languages, getting different terms in English in different English speaking regions. It gets even worse when people translate it from different languages, because depending on the language and the person that translates it, this forum can be really messy.

Following standards is one of the best practices for description coordination.

Ones brain can normally fill in the blanks for it to make sense like the example below....

"fi yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too. Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno’t mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghi t pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!"

The problem that I see is there may be some comprehension creep from its original meanings and spelling if not kept in check.

As BestInShow says--Read your stuff. Spell checkers are good, but won't catch words wrongly used, they won't flag "of" when you meant "on." They don't do well on proper names. Read your writings.

I agree wholeheartedly!

When I see a nonsensical post, I answer in a similar nonsensical manner, using no punctuation, no capitalization, misspellings, etc. If it's really bad, I'll tell the poster to learn to type in English if they expect an answer.

The problem is that our schools suck so badly. Hell, the kids graduating today can't even sign their names in script! Or tell time with an 'analog' clock! It's a wonder they can even feed themselves, (I've heard that some don't know how to use a knife to cut their meat).

Bit harsh, I'd say.

What does cutting meat have to do with anything? Do you write with your knife?

I agree that communication, especially among strangers (and engineers), should be properly executed and as grammatically correct as possible.

Even then, as PWSlack's signature suggests, "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place."

Don't look for our schools to get better any time soon.

The problem is that our schools suck so badly.

I believe that things like that is cyclic, I'll post a link at the end. When it comes to education,... it all starts at home. And from there it goes to schools. And when it comes to the home and schools, the problem is.

• Kids are raised where its not their fault and is replaced and is instilled in them a sense of entitlement. They get in trouble in school or out in the street, the parents will defend their child if for anything because they're good boy/girl
• The schools are ineffective because they cannot and should not have to discipline unruly students. Because that should be coming from home.
• As well the bad teachers are protected. And the term 'bad' is subjective

This is just to name a few.

And the media if it does it job, reports this, it shows now what these 'brats' do if they don't get their way. It sad to see these brats are actually adults that throw a immature meltdown tantrum when they don't get their way.

As far as what I mention earlier of the educational system, using Wisconsin as an example.

7 years ago, we elected a new governor Scott Walker, and he wanted to change the status quo... everything hit the fan, even a recall election where he won by even a larger margin.

He address the educational issues where had held the schools accountable. And instead of the predicted mushroom cloud, Wisconsin educational quality output increase. A number of surveys will attest to the improvement.

And to add to that there are other benefits, such as, bringing in the fiscal responsibility in order to the state. Unfortunately, you have to go in the mud and get dirty to change it, where not many are willing to do. But it can be done.

People don't want to hear that and will go out of their way to squash it. And its can be the people that complain about it.

Hmm Ron if some are like me then their English will be poop you see dementia does this to you robs you of your words commers full stops even just posting is a issue so even thou you dislike broken English there can be a issue with many has why thanks jeff

Jeff: Also people who have had a stroke. I have a hobby friend who had a stroke, and his use of language is "strange." Usually understandable, but often difficult.

Interesting thought! I've had contact with quite a few folks who've had strokes of varying degrees, with varying degrees of speech impairment, but I don't think I've ever knowingly seen anything written by any of them.

Since there are quite a few of us in our 70's and beyond here on CR4, there is indeed a high probability that some have had strokes or Transient Ischemic Attacks, and some of those may not even know it...

I am amongst this group (age-wise and TIA) though very much aware of it, except I am not sure what message I am getting from this thread.

For instance, Codemaster #42, gets a GA for picking up 'epitaph/epithet' yet I get an OT for doing so - not that those with OT's switched off will know - it is a form of CR4 gag.

I've noticed absolutely no evidence of your TIA(s?). Keep it up!

Clearly, different people have different points of view. Some, myself included, like to have any error pointed out in order to learn more; others are definitely offended. I don't remember any specific cases, but there have been multiple instances where I added a GA to a post in order to counter someone else's OT...

What are GAs and OTs? (Great Analysis, Off Topic?)

Good Answers and Off Topics.

In some cases, OTs are used as a polite way to mean Bad Answers. ...and of course we don't want to use the acronym for Bad Answer.

I would much prefer the option of rating something as a 'bad answer'...especially if it was not available when posting anonymously and required at least a short explanation.

Yes, there is some mileage in that idea, but rating a comment as a 'bad answer' or maybe 'wrong answer' hints at 'don't like' it. A purely personal or judgmental stance. An answer might be 'technically wrong' but not necessarily bad.

Yes, and such ratings should be attributable or traceable to who made it. If I thought a comment was wrong I would post a reply with an explanation. And in any case it is just an opinion, who is the definitive authority in such a matter - to say who is right or wrong?

I was in agreement with most of your post, but considering how often answers simply become personal arguments between two posters, I think other posters should be able to label answers as OT.

This might reduce the numbers of "Bad Answers" that are properly off topic, and also reduce the "hijacking" of threads.

Not all opinions are "just" opinions; some are more well informed than others; and there are also facts.

While others are opinions passed on as fact.

Some people are better than others about telling the difference.

I can't disagree there

How about a third category that would allow readers to vote for "Off Topic"?

As you note, "An answer might be 'technically wrong' but not necessarily bad.", while an "Off Topic" answer just rates a "Bad Answer".

Often confusing, especially when a poster is responder to another post.

There was a discussion about this and other possibilities with the admin a while back (it seems like a few months back, but it was probably over [a] year[s]). The end result was no change.

Sorry about my use of acronyms, GA is for a Good-Answer, and OT is for Off-Topic.

It is so easy to slip into lazy habits and use shortcuts after a while.

You can 'switch' OT's off so they don't show up in your window. To my mind it is a form of gagging, unless you declare that they are OT when you post your reply.

Personally, I like OT comments, I find them interesting.

Particularly in a subject like communicating the right message. A collection of OT's might hint at misunderstandings by the reader.

Although in my experience you get your comments rated as OT, not because they are off-topic, or incorrect, but because others take a dislike to you, or what you say.

"...mud-slinging = lost ground."

Not if the other party is supplying thr mud.

Yes, but it is the other party that loses ground - so it weakens their argument....

Isn't that the usual purpose of mud-slinging?

It should be obvious that my comments do not apply to those who have had a stroke, dementia or are non-English speaking. I also dismiss "typo" errors. As others have mentioned; laziness appears to be one of the reasons for poor English. Some don't seem to care whether or not their language is intelligible and that is a poor excuse. We are personally responsible for how we speak. We can't blame others for our poor English. As you may have noticed, poor language is probably my number one gripe. I was not an English major in school, but I received a well rounded education at a more "gentler" time in history.

I am afraid it was NOT obvious that your comments were not intended to include people with disabilities. That is partly why I replied earlier with comments about my double vision problem causing miss-keying - that appear on screen as spelling mistakes - hopefully that I pick up using my spell checker - but that still allows the wrong word to slip through.

You are trying to have engineers write comprehensibly? The problem here is "engineer". The dean of engineering at my college sat all incoming engineers down on day one of our advanced educational experience and told us that English is a foreign language to engineers. We speak in formulas, graphs, and schematics.

You want prose? You will have to try a different forum.

Interesting, I like to add, which I found interesting.

A little background, I owned land next to a Music Academy, as well as rented some of the academy's land for farming.. And had the opportunity to talk to some of the music professors there. And there were a few of them, that they had started off to become Engineers, and after the third even the fourth year changed they major to music.

That's was the first time, I where I noticed a connection between music and engineering. Later on, I realize how.

Music is very logical so it fits nicely into an engineers thought style.

Sounds like the "weeding out" process. At my school, ten buddies, myself included, started into the EE curriculum as freshmen, and only three of us graduated as an EE. The big culling of the ranks occurred our sophomore year. I still say it was an intentional cull. We got some of the worst possible instructors, not necessarily professors as most were grad students, this year, and if you weren't totally devoted, you just couldn't follow their thought train. Even the professors we were taught by that year were tough to follow as they were just our age - yes, two professors were geniuses who had the PhD by 20 years old, and dear old State decided to try them out as teachers with my class of EE's. Try to understand someone like that sometime. Can you say "Sheldon Cooper?"

I don't recall any of the seven going into music. Most opted to try for an MBA.

Sounds like the "weeding out" process.

The mortality rate was the same in my class,... 4 Graduated out of a starting enrollment of 32.

Some may have went back to finish out later.... but who knows... Also none that I know of went into music either. I only found out the connections by talking to people already in music and they told me their path.

But I do know a few engineers, that are musically incline.

Being an "engineer" does not preclude the proper use of any language. Fine if you only want to talk "shop" with fellow engineers or technically inclined people, but,,, there are a lot more non-engineers than engineers in this world. And how many times do engineers have to speak with them or give them information so they can understand it? It's not always ◄±×ð°. Sometimes you have to show a little more ♥ and use other non-technical type terms.

♪ ♫♫♪ ☼☺

That I agree with,... I like to add that terminology can be a real tripping zone. In engineering, or anything really,... everyone needs to be on the same page of understanding.

So Terminology may not be the same as language issues, but as an engineer or project manager, one has to communicate the idea with enough detail. Because an unstandardized montage of terminology is just as bad as poor language skills if not worse.

Unless you are able to communicate effectively, you can be the most brilliant engineer in your group or company, but still be relatively useless.

You may understand how to solve a particular problem, but if you cannot explain what must be done to a craftsman, or justify your planning to a superior who is more finance minded than technically oriented, all of your efforts are a waste of energy since they can never be properly implemented.

The most successful in any field - medicine, politics, commerce, entertainment are also the best communicators.

I believe that's what I said... lol

my editing time ran out... and there's probably still grammatical and punctuation errors here. This is what I was adding.

Here's a little story that happened to me about 2 months ago that has a few messages I hope to get across.

Here's a little background.

It was a Thursday, and when I got home from work I was working in the backyard. I came in the house at about 6:00 pm, watched some television at about 8:00. I decided to go to bed, and my ankle just hurt. I thought it was from injuries from my youth catching up to me.

Friday came, and the pain was getting worse and going up my leg. Saturday came and the it was all the way up to my knee and it was stiff. And throughout the weekend it was getting progressively worse.

Monday morning, there was a red streak going up on my shin and it was a hard in the streak. I got into work, and called the doctor to make an appointment. The receptionist said my doctor was on vacation but his colleague could take me in immediately. Now my doctor, who was Romanian and was very good and has a accent.

So I went in, his colleague was from India with a heavy accent. Well a nurse first asked me some question about the problems and left, the Indian doctor then entered and right off the bat said it was arthritis. I some what argued that no its not, its something else, well he said he'll order an ultra sound before I leave.

I did took the ultrasound, and as I was waiting in the waiting room with my girlfriend, she asked what the doctor say. I told her he was from India and we had a language barrier... she looked perplexed.

I told her, we didn't understand each other, so we had to find a common language.

She look confused and I then said, yes... The doctor spoke Vietnamese so I'd understand... and I spoke with balloon animals so he'd understand.

she got the picture.... ^{that's one message,... it's supposed to be a joke}

Oh,... and about the result of the ultrasound.... they had to take it twice... and I ended up having a superficial blood clot in my leg.

And that doctor from India, when I was taking the ultrasound, the Ultrasound technician told me that this was the last week for the Indian doctor, he was leaving on Friday.

So the second message I like to get across... there's nothing wrong with challenging professionals, you could benefit from it.

But it will somewhat piss off the so called professionals and self proclaimed professionals.

Unfortunately the corollary is not true: some people who are just good communicators seem to do very well despite the fact that the majority of the stuff they communicate is total drivel.

Sorry! You're correct. I've got to read my e-mail earlier, when there's a better chance of my being alert.

This reminds me of the importance of being bilingual. Kind of like a compiler for computer programming. The compiler is bilingual. It has a user-interface for the programmer, and then translates it into machine language for the computer. That's one "middle-man" that you can't cut out. Like Applied Science is the middle-man between Theoretical Science and Physical Science.

We have solved that problem where I work - I almost never talk direct to a customer. There is a project manager who handles the communication issues.This is more of a "Sheldon Cooper" type attitude on my part, than poor grammatical structure, but, it can happen that engineers don't have to talk to non-engineers. It has been working here for 25 years.

Yes,,, it is common as most engineers, at least in my experience, do not make good "salespeople". Being "technically" minded does sometimes not allow for the sales pitch schmoozing.

I just read your post after I posted... ga.

Where I had worked, we design and fabricated process equipment for the food and dairy... when the customers found out we had an engineering department,... or I should say how to contact the engineering department, they choose that over talking to the salesmen. A real pain... at times. It hard making an honest man out of a salesmen.

More times than not, my engineers would over see the installation of a project, and they came back with more work then they left with just by talking to the customers.

Why is that one might ask?,.. the customers response was, it was the engineers that gave them the best honest answers... even when it was something they didn't want to hear. Truth can be pretty harsh, especially when they were mislead in the first place..

There were times when an engineer would finish talking to a customer on the phone, and he would say, that the last we'll hear of that customer. I would then disagree, and told him he'll call back, it was just that you surprise him with the truth.

Sure enough 2-3 days later that same customer would call back and it was as though he was best friends with the engineer. They couldn't figure it out, and I told them, all the customers wants is the truth... unfortunate, they were mislead by a salesmen that the truth was a rude awakening for them. Usually to do with scheduling, but not always.

With that said,... being an engineer and a project manager as well as sales,... is not easy. And I don't recommend it.

....misled, not mislead.

how appropriate...

i would tend to agree that most engineers are probably a little too honest with their opinions and information, hence, there are sales people. I have had the "not recommended" position of engineer/project manager/sales, fortunately in an industry where the engineering was the key. To this day, I am particular with which customers I speak with, usually previous contacts of those customers (I really only have 3 steady customers with multiple contact people) who have earned my respect and trust. Others I leave to my "sales" department. I end up doing more "work" in the long run, but,,, at least my company earns respect and repeat business.

When I was in grade school I knew a kid named Rodney, he was from Texas. He would always say he wanted to be humped down to the store. I could never figure out what he meant. When I got older, I went to Texas and saw these signs.

I still don't know what he meant.i didn't know that you could use hump and head on the same sign.

Humping is another one of those railway terminology things. All railroads have "hump" yards, simply put, the cars are left to gravity to move them down a gradient. Do not hump usually means a "fragile" cargo.

Then you have the term, " Head Engineer " which seems like a naval term, although on a ship it is called a head, so someone has to be in charge of it. Not to be confused with the poopdeck, which comes from the word poo and that comes from the word loo, that comes from the word gardyloo, that comes from regardez l' eau. ( watch out for the water ).

Isn't language a funny thing?

Especially when you tell good jokes.

vulgar slang have sexual intercourse with.? Dictionary on line. It is the last thing he wanted to do but the persuasion will make him do it---that is going down to the shops.

Two considerations:

Jargon - Most trades and industries use trade terms specifically used to filter out those who are not of the true faith. Thus control electrical engineers have terms and usages not used in power electrical engineering and vice versa to keep the communications pure and separate out "those infidels". Much of the confusing communication I see relates to finding out the definition of the terms and less with the structure of the sentence.

Perfect communications - Perfect communications, that which leads to true understanding of the message and intent of those communicating, leads to more and bloodier wars.

Cr4 spell and grammar checkers are out in force on this thread.

Tread and post lightly.

Is there something surprising about that?

.

.

Better yet, post correctly.