Carnivore or Herbivore

If you keep chasing it back, then all life rely's on sunshine!

Not according to deep sea and cave scientists . . .

Digestive health depends on having the correct bacteria in your stomach, in the veterinary field it is quite common to inject the excrement of one animal via the anus into another, in humans it is done in a more genteel manner (see ads for good bacteria bad bacteria).

Any one who has been on a course of broad spectrum antibiotics knows the stomach upsetting effect of killing of to many good bacteria

Is that why infants leak at both ends until their digestive processes have stabilised (just curious)?

syphrum, I'm interested by your comment --- Any one who has been on a course of broad spectrum antibiotics knows the stomach upsetting effect of killing of to many good bacteria --- since I suffer from this 3 years after taking such antibiotics. Your comment about the ads for good bacteria bad bacteria - does that imply that you think those things might work, like Yakult etc? I have been told by the doctors who gave me the antibiotics that there is no cure for the stomach upset caused by antibiotics and that Yakult etc does not work. Could you say any different to that? I would be grateful for any enlightenment you could provide.

Sorry I'm no medic but if the stuff is reasonably cheap try some it can't do no harm.

A Hitler suffered from stomach trouble all his life and his doctors tried this kind of medication (I wonder if they dared tell him the source good bacteria).

I have tried to avoid antibiotics because of their stomach upsetting effect but of course they save your life if you really need them, fortunately my stomach upsets clear up after a few weeks.

In Germany we have pills of weak cultures of the "needed" bacteria. (I am given to understand by my Doc.)

Some years ago I had to live off drips for about 14 days because of an inflamed bowel!! The medicine killed all the good stuff off, I was sterile from one end to the other and weak as a kitten......I ain't kidding!!!

Eating any food was awful painful, till I asked him if that was the problem!! He apologized as they normally hand it out to every patient with this problem. 2 days later I was fine!!

Go get the pills!!!

Their sharp claws and lightning fast reflexes are the giveaway...

You're right there! I grew up on a dairy farm, many are my memories of walking home across the pasture with my skin crawling with the feeling of being stalked, knowing that if I ran, the urge to chase me would be to great and I would be hunted down. After all, there would be no such thing as a bull fight if these vicious beasts were not so dangerous.

In my experience, "vicious" usually means the animal will try to defend itself when attacked!

Bulls unnerve me, though. Calves are cute and puppy-like, and cows generally interact in ways that I can understand, but bulls just stand there like pieces of farm machinery until they see food (attack!) or a cow in estrus (attack!!) or a perceived threat (ATTACK!!!). And I'm never quite sure what will look threatening to a bull.

But just to stay on-thread: no, I don't consider cattle to be carnivores, they're just firmly embedded into the ecology, like the rest of us.

Bulls, Don't turn your back on one.

As far as cows are concerned. If one worked with enough of them, some have very strong maternal instincts.

When you look at the protein supplements that are fed to the cow, and where they come from. Yes.

One can talk more loosly and even say that they are cannibals.

Does that imply that mushrooms and vegetables are carnivores because they get fed on bull ? If all mammals drink milk as young, then could any truly be regarded as vegetarian. I am now even more confused than my usual self.

As has been said, all forms of life depend on symbiotic contributions to exist- the biggest are bacteria- the human being has more bacteria (most unknown) than cells, without which human life, indeed most life, would not be possible- this is covered in New Scientist 18/8/07- no, cows are not carnivores- any vegan animal that ingests flesh & bones from dead animals can die from ie botulism, to name just one disease.

Well for that matter any animal could die from a botulism infection, just need the conditions in the digestive tract and sufficient dosage of the right spp of clostridum botulinum or botulin toxin.

Maybe the phages will have the final say. It looks like that nether world of 'what is life ? '.

Very cool Kris. And of course the effing pharma corps have got something/everything to do with the most 'powerful' nation in the world not having access.

Of course.

CRummel3

I don't follow your drift old chap ? (though pharma corps are a bunch of b******)

In the Wiki you posted it is noted that the West has yet to see much of these in place of the inferior traditional antibiotics. The reason? difficult to patent.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Thanks CR3

I don't know what this implies, but it's sort of interesting. Some of the stuff here is just a wee bit OTT.

This is a really funny forum thread!

It made it me laugh more when i realized that so many ppl replied and none with an answer to your question!

Thse poor cows.

Cows are NOT carnivores.

The definition of a carnivore is someone that feeds on other animals. The cow feeds on grass. The bacteria help 'ferment' the grass.

The second thing is that bacteria are not considered as animals. They belong to a seperate kingdom of their own. In fact, yougurt would be sold under meat if that was so. So please do not defame those poor creatures.

Maybe should should read closer, A question was asked, Replys were made from personal observation.

Atleast we entertained you. And yes, protein supplements fed to these "poor animals" are made from other animals, (as well as there own kind). And who's defaming, When I was on the farm and was walking in the pasture at night "for whatever reason" I felt they were planning something.

( like a prison break or something )

At last! Someone else who shares Gary Larson's mistrust of the ruminant!

I fed a chicken bone to a pet squirrel I once had, and it ate it. Are squirrels carnivores?

How many finger did you have before, and how many fingers did have after you fed the squirrel?

Actually, I did stick the end of my finger through the hardware cloth (about 1/2" X 1/2" mesh) cage, and the little devil bit the end of my finger, and it really hurt, and the danged thing wouldn't let go for what seemed like an eternity, even though it couldn't have been more than several seconds.

That's when I stuck the chicken bone through the cage and the squirrel grabbed it in its teeth and took it back to his perch and gnawed on it 'til it was gone.

it loves chicken.

Now ask this question to yourself, is it a carnivore with just one bite?

You should try it again, to see if the experiment can be repeatable.

Are squirrels carnivores?

It all depends. They're opportunists !

I believe everything is a carnivore. However, some living creatures are just too lazy, incapable, incompetent (stupid, or slow), or just unmotivated to catch and eat meat. This is something you see with Chimps, if they can catch it and overpower it they will eat it, but most of the time they can not.

I disagree about 'Chimps' being opportunist carnivores they have well organised hunts for monkeys.

If someone made me a sirlion steak dinner, I would eat it, am I opportunistic or a carnivore? And if a salad came with it, I would eat that too.

And than ask for dessert.

And if I had a choice of the three "too lazy, incapable, incompetent (stupid, or slow)" to call myself.

I pick number "1", and add a fourth "cheap".

Nah, I would just call myself opportunistic, sounds more industialistic.

I think the real question is:

If you had a choice between a good cut of prime rib or a nice vegan salad for dinner which would you generally prefer (not always prefer, but more often prefer).

Well, normally I would have picked Prime Rib, but I'm trying to lose weight (that way I can have dessert) . And I like my salad to go with my meal, please don't let me choose between the 2

Are you a resentful fruit ? That's alright, but this article says they have a success rate of 60-80 % when going for it. Perhaps they just work out the energy expended versus reward. I harbour a suspicion that the packaging on some breakfast cereals has higher calorific value than the contents.

Meat or protein was only a incidental gain, the poor little guy was needing calcium.

Most wild animals will gnaw (chew on) bones for calcium.

Brad

...which is why he bit the finger in the first place!! He knew there was calcium in that flesh!!! Give him a cuttlefish bone.....

How sad!!!

There is a third category that people and squirrels live in; Omnivore (for the most part). Cows however, are herbivores that are forced to gain protein from meat or meatby-products mixed in their feed by humans who do not allow the cows to do as they would in nature. Although I guarantee you that third world cattle do not get the "high end" feeds we give our cows. They seem to be a little thinner but they do survive. So, not only do we have fat children in the developed naions but the cattle are fatter too.

I do know some of the posts on this topic is rather light. one thing is, without getting philsophical if cows had a choice what would they choose. It may not be a natural evolution what happens, but maybe they would become carnivores with the added proteins for brain development. If not a matter of choice maybe its a natural tendency that cows have or want to go carnivore, and industrialized nations are playing an "unnatural part in this".

Is this not how humans did it?

Second as light as some of these posts are. the posts are as comical as the may seem "some of them anyways" are posts from observation, though not scientific.

And the post are light because, I believe the original question was, what are your thoughts. Being there is no right answer.

Well, I suspect that healthier cattle is more than enough justification then for the higher energy consumption of the developed world and the third world should be held strictly acountable for their skinny unhealthy cattle. Where is the SPCA and animal control?

Guest, have you inspected the thin unhealthy cattle?- if not, how do you know that they are unhealthy?- just because a living creature is thin does not mean it is unhealthy- in fact, the longest lived creatures, incl rats & man, are definitely thin!. This is achieved by calorie restriction in most cases. The augmentation of animal feed by humans to get the most fat, weight, NOT health of captive animal, is deplorable, in the name of MY profit, & stuff the rest of you!.

I agree that the intensive farming of animals can be pretty gross. The excessive use of chemicals on crops is also gross, as is the displacement of natural flora and fauna. The buck stops with the consumer, since they have a 'choice' about buying so called organic produce (in as much as they want, or can afford to) and farmers will produce accordingly. Unfortunately I can't see any solution that is viable.

I want to agree with you but cannot. Our ancestors long ago decided that the convenience outweighed the ability to remain self sufficient.

It is like saying to an American, "You choose to put your children in daycare".

Hmm. I was mainly pointing at some of the individual daily choices we make - for instance, I can choose how to spend a certain percentage of my income. This is so for the majority of Western people. I could spend more to select (say) foodstuffs that have better 'green' credentials. For whatever reason (probably self indulgence) I don't do that as much as I might.

At a more extreme level, I couldn't just change my life-style into a totally self-sufficient way. Even with the means, I don't think I'd want to. I agree with you, that people don't always have a practical choice on the child day-care issue. We are in that sense trapped, but there are minor choices that we can all make. The irksome thing is that we (I) don't always do so. Society leaves us detached.

In its natural surroundings yes, where the these thin animals are exposed to organisms and bacteria where they have build a tolerance against, diffidently they are a more hardier animal, I do no believe no one would dispute that, As far as health of a captive animal, that is only short term, until it goes to market. should the farmer apologize for that?

This is a though ignorance (which is not an excuse) And as far as thin animals lets say in an undeveloped country, since the cows may have develop an immunity to a bacteria in that country because it is a hardy animal, and say a person from a developed country ate that animal without this resistance. how healthy is that cow as to opposed to a safe food supply?

Back to the original question, is it carnivore or herbivore? The post are listed from experience and observation, and yes sprinkled with some comic relief, but before we get back to the subject about the longest lived animals, can we included insects in this for as a longest lived creature, at least for species?

If yet unfamiliar read 'Beyond Beef' by Jeremy Rifkin.

A squirrel eating a chicken bone? I can go weirder than that. My friend's African Grey parrot always wants a bite of whatever it sees people eating. Once, just for yuks, my friend gave the parrot the bone from a fried chicken leg. The bird LOVED it! ...Eeeew... That's just wrong.

I could ask, are people muchrooms, Maybe? At work they feed us crap and keep us in the dark.

I asked the question because the cow's digestive system differs completely from other herbivores.

The eat a lot of things or things disappear in there presence. (plastic, brass, etc)

Plastic bags are a big concern because the eat it and get blocked.

About evolving:

What evolved from what? The cow might by stubborn enough too be different but I don't think they are clever enough to desire such detail.

Why cant they adapt to different grazing? Have they lost the evolving capability?

My dog must be a herbivore I caught him eating grass.

Cows are ruminants, but I don't think they are unique (?)

Dogs are omnivores (?), but can (unlike cats) be vegetarian, though it sounds crass to force human ideology on them (IMHO). I wouldn't be concerned if they like a little grass (green, not blue or anything else !)

Where to begin? Cats and dogs are anatomically carnivores. They may eat raw veggies out of boredom or illness (to make them vomit) like the animal equivalent of Ipecac. However they do not have the anatomy to digest veggies like a cow or camel or any other ruminant. Ruminants have the capacity to digest cellulose and gain the nutritive value enclosed within because of their four stomachs and the chewing of cud...

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a thin, not artificially fattened, bovine that is healthy and feeds on a natural diet.

Lastly, the term organic is very deceiving and poorly defined for the consumer. A lot of the pesticides used today are organic in composition so what does it mean to say that lettuce is organically grown. Beef cattle can be given growth hormone which is organic as well. The FDA has not defined this term as it applies to food but look it up and you will see how broad the term is until a legal definition is put in place.

err, yes Mike. I'm somewhat confused as to how it relates to my post #40 though.

You are tapping my memory. Which is dngerous

The eat a lot of things or things disappear in there presence. (plastic, brass, etc)

They may not be like a goat, but they do get hardware.

Why cant they adapt to different grazing? they can but not so much over night

As far as different grazing, any farmer that buys cattle and adds it to its herd will tell you, it will go off feed, at least for a few days. (for a number of reason)

Have they lost the evolving capability? Not so much desire, but naturally evolution., maybe do to envorinment?

Is there a biologist or geneist in the house?

Yes, one of the reason, is that the energy needed to break down and get the value of the grasses, is complex and marginal? Cows can do this by having multiple stomachs.

My basic interpetation, from what my dad told me when I asked him when I was 12 (and grade school biology) . please correct me if it is incorrect so I can straighten my old man out.

The grazing I am talking about is semi desert plants (high protein stuff) vs grass/ fodder. I know they adapt between normal stuff but the just could not manage the big change.

I am not familiar with the feeds stuffs from "semi desert plants (high protein stuff)"

I can only assume that is would belong to the legume family, and if not it would be the ability (that is how thier body is adjusted to it) how it can break down the cellular structure of the plant to get the value from plants from one type of climate region area to another.

As interesting as this thread can get, I am really starting to step out of bounds in this area of what I know, or experience and am begining to speculate.

With the correct type of "bacteria" capable of living on the specific plant material in their stomachs they are capable of adapting. This "bacteria" do not seem to develop or evolve naturally and must therefore be introduced.

My original observation was that they are actually living on the "bacteria" and not on the plants eaten and therefore are not true herbivores.

My original post were a bit mischievous because they are not carnivores either.

As stated above by Kris and others they are Ruminants.

What is special about them is that they can eat dry plant material with very little protein value, multiply the protein and live and thrive on it.

The process could be copied and used to solve the protein deficit in poor countries.

Greeting Hendrik,

Having observed these animals also, and what was feed to them. When I saw your post, I though it was funny, and thougt of a cartoon I saw in an agricultural journal, and damed if PlbMak did'nt post it. I took the side of possiblity of carnivores, first to raise controversy with these as evidence weak but still evidence. and would I claim them as carnivore? And I took a stand with it.

I did, but with a smirk, waiting for someone to prove me otherwise. (I do play to win) Posts that it generated held my attention. And yes they are Ruminants. But sometimes one feels that one may have to challenge things, no matter the odds, I do this which is out of the ordinary because I usually pick battles I can win.

As far as "What is special about them is that they can eat dry plant material with very little protein value, multiply the protein and live and thrive on it.

The process could be copied and used to solve the protein deficit in poor countries."

Being that it is this process the cow has to break down this complicated cellular structure to get to the protiens, being more that one process the cow has. How far it should it be copied to the end protein or the finally cud.

Sorry mate! As a Larson fan, it was too good to miss. As to the rest of the debate, all I can say is that all the cows on the old dairy farm had to eat; was grass and hay. P.S. This is my fave Larson cartoon.

No need to appoligize, I enjoyed it....hey....., where did you get that picture of me.

If we are going off on tthe tangent of solving world hunger thaen the more importannt issue is feed conversion weight to meat. Check this article out to see the clear winner in this case http://apacweb.ag.utk.edu/ppap/pdf/98/saeameat.pdf.

Again, read Beyond Beef by Jeremy Rifkin.

2/3 of the worlds grain to feed cattle and pets. These in turn feed less than 1/3 of the worlds population.

Hmmmm.

cr3

What is special about them is that they can eat dry plant material with very little protein value, multiply the protein and live and thrive on it.

There my friends is where we need to look for our free energy machine.

cr3

All living animals and such, including humans, are both meat and vegitable eaters.

The human stomach is not ready to digest such items as red and white meats at birth, mainly due to the fact of the required enzimes and bacterial requirements. When a fetus is in the whomb, it is fed a rich nutritional formula throught the cord. These supliments are already pre-mixed for the value sustaining life force.

After birth, the infants stomach is missing these required acids to properly digest and creat the required life force. So, in order to help this process, it is recommended to feed yogart juice mixed with mothers' milk to help develope these required acids and grow the neccessary bacterial farm in the stomach and intestines regions. It takes almost three months to create a healthy farm after the baby has been whinned off the tit and is capable of injesting more then the mothers' milk.

As far as the cow goes, there are several levels of "meat" products the cow actually feeds upon in their daily munching. And for yous squirel being a carnivor, the chicken bone still had an ample supply of bone marrow left in it. This source of calcium and minerals was more like a desert to the squirel. Squirels even chew on the bark of a tree, which can be concidered as a type of meat, the pulp being the outer protective layer of a tree is full of living organic bacteria. Thus this adds to the micro-world of being a carnivor in its very simplest terms. All living material is meat of some sort. Not all meat is actually the given flesh we as humans have come to enjoy, such as cow, pig, lamb, dog, cat, or any other living animal.

Any substance that is concidered as "skin" on an organisim, such as plant material, should be classified as a "meat" product of its' own classification. All organics have microbe cells to function and live. These cells are the base foundation of our own cells to be in existance as a living entety in this world we live in.

Thus, all living creatures are both herbal and carnivor creatures.

Maximo

poppycock.

Please google for Kwashiorkor and see the reason why there is a need for the artificial production of protein. (efficiency's of better than inside cows are required)

Lawn and garden cuttings can be fed into the machine instead of having to dispose of it at great cost in a land fill site.

The output can be compressed into pellets or mixed with something like molasses.

I have only one thing left to say: -

Vacca foeda!